Hi folks, Dave stop adding wee bits you know are wrong!! It was not the ENGLISH, it was the British army, stuffed full of Scots and Highland Scots at that, which stopped BPC and his supporters. It was the HIGHLAND chiefs and lairds, not the English, who cleared their tenants and packed them off to America, Canada, Australia etc. Throughout history, the Scots have had a wonderful talent for destroying themselves! The London based monarchs, both before and after 1688 knew how to keep their Scottish subjects under control, by getting them to squabble and fight among themselves. Indeed it was the only way the Edinburgh and then London based Stewart kings could try and keep any form of control over Scotland. If it wasn't the Campbells and MacDonald's, it was the Mackenzie's and the Munros, or the Mackays and the Gordons or the Grahams and MacGregors or whoever happened to have fallen out at the time. My understanding could be wrong, but BPC was never crowned king and indeed most countries refused to recognise him as King, unlike his father. His younger brother Henry Benedict, took the title Henry IX but relied on a pension from George III, his so called "hated" Hanoverian cousin, in order to pay his bills!!! As to the question of Pretenders, a Pretender is as you say, not an illegitimate or wrongful claimant, he/she is a claimant to either a vacant throne or as in the case of the Stewarts, to a throne already occupied by a rival branch of the same ruling family. In other cases the occupant might be the occupant of a rival ruling family. Examples are easily found. The Count of Paris is the recognised Pretender to the French throne, the senior member of the House of Bourbon-Orleans, but equally their are members of the House of Bonaparte who are Pretenders to the throne and it was a Bonaparte who was the last French monarch, Napoleon III, whose son was killed at Isandlewana (forgive spelling if wrong) while serving with the British army during the Zulu Wars. Today's Bonaparte's are as "royal" as their Bourbon cousins due to intermarriage. The House of Savoy provides the Pretender to the Italian throne, Hohenzollern to the German Imperial throne, Romanov (HIH Grand Duke Georgi) to the Russian throne, Hapsburg (Dr Otto the German Euro MP or he was until recently) to the Austrian throne and a mind boggling array of Royal families , mainly living in London or Paris to the numerous middle European thrones. Returning to the Stewarts, there are at least two Pretenders. Firstly there is HRH Prince Michael of Albany, who lives in Edinburgh and whom I consider (For what it's worth) to be the better claimant. Secondly there is the Wittelsbachs, the Royal House of Bavaria, which has for at least one hundred years been recognised as the Principal Pretending house and I have told the story of the Jacobite sympathising Highland officer who visited HRH Prince Albrecht during the dying days of WWII and received a Jacobite dignity from him. This is off-topic for Inverness, except of course it was in Inverness-shire that the hopes of the Roman Catholic branch of the Stewarts was ended in 1746. If any of you are interested in this and the debate which regularly rages between cousin Dave and me (by the way we are both descended not only from a good Jacobite but also related to one of the most evil Highland Hanoverians, Captain Grant of Knockando who butchered his way through Speyside and the Great Glen after Culloden at the head of his Highland Company) then join my Jacobites list: Regards to all, Mark Sutherland-Fisher Genealogist: Clan Sutherland Co-Genealogist: Clan Mackenzie Professional Genealogist specialising in the Highlands and 18th century see my web-site: http://www.highland-family-heritage.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: <ScotHeritage@aol.com> To: <SCT-INVERNESS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-INV-L] Re: The Term Pretender > In a message dated 07/09/00 4:11:59 PM Central Daylight Time, > clarimer@prodigy.net writes: > > << Somewhere along the line I heard that the expression "Pretender" in > relation > to Bonnie Prince Charlie actually derives from the French word "prendre," > which means "to take." So that it was really BP Charlie, The Taker, and not > BP Charlie, The Illusionist. > > Did you hear about the four Stewarts ... (oops, wrong list). > > Charlie Fraser Larimer > clarimer@prodigy.net >> > > Yes, you are quite correct and if the pretension were translated to the the > French, Je Prendre I take it would mean basically the same. Remember the > diplomatic language of the world is French. A prince du jur(e)is the right > prince, or the prince with the right to the throne on the pretense of the > historical blood line. so B.P.C. or his father was, Le Roy du jur(e) The > rightful king, pour prondrez le compaing to take the country or the crown. If > one were also to read any books on military strategy at the time of Culloden > other than those the establish English education system has shoved down our > throats, one would realize that B.P.C. and General Mar did exactly the right > thing, and were stuck at Culloden due to circumstance and not by plan. Most > books until quite recently also leave out the bit about the Highlanders > (Jacobites) reforming to attack again, or that no one in the Highlands would > turn over our prince and betray him for a reward at the time valued in excess > of a million dollars today. > > You will also note that very few books if any even relate to the fact that > Mr. Washington, Jefferson and Franklin with the blessing of the Continental > congress sent a delegation of 3 men to ask B.P.C. to become king of America, > which BPC turned down due to not having an Heir to the throne and thus upon > his death it would return to wee German Geordie. How does all this relate to > our ancestors and this list? It was the English genocide that caused so many > to be butchered and sent off to the new world, as slaves, prisoners and > indentured labour. Then came the clearances and another great excuse. It > seems throughout history some little jerk in the south has always known what > was best for us, and it was only recently that the verses calling for > genocide of the Highlands was removed from the national anthem "God Save The > Queen." Now is there any wounder I get a little perturbed when someone begins > to tell me about MY culture and that of every child and great great grand > child of an exile. It is my wish that everyone will get to know the Highlands > and OUR culture and our culture includes the thousands who were burned out > and chained and sent away. Do we all hang out in bars, are we all rowdy, no > and that can be seen by the original letter stating they found the joke > distasteful, written I, presume by the politeness and form by a Highlander in > Hong Kong. That letter I respect and shall honour by not writing another joke > that he may find distasteful. The point is we are not a quiet and quaint > little group of kilt wearing Brigadonians, we are a vital alive changing > people. Your ancestors were not mealy mouthed they were strong, especially > the women who took the brunt of our history from the church stripping them > naked and leaving them tied on the beach for the tide and the crabs to take > them, to walking miles over all sorts of terrane in all sorts of climates > where they built homes and raised their children, and damn near every one of > those children is now out seeking their roots. My God surely these fine and > honourable people who have fought for their freedom, and brought freedom to > the greatest nations on this earth deserve more than a sterile autopsy and be > relegated to death certificates and diaries. Surely they deserve to have a > life in memory and song. Without them America, Canada, Australia, New > Zealand, etc., would be little more than little England's and not the great > democracies they are today. It was not the English who made these countries > great, and by that I do not mean the poor people of England who toiled along > with us in foreign fields, but the Crown and its thieving cronies. They > brought the Declaration of Arbroath, (April 16th 1320) which was used in > almost every constitution in the world, They brought the National Covenant, > (Edinburgh 1638), the Declaration For Liberty And Conscience (April 04 1687) > But more than this they brought a spirit and a demand for equality and a will > to fight for it. Do you know Scotland has the oldest written constitution in > the world, we brought in minimal wage laws, equality under the law, freedom > of religion and these people your ancestors took it to the world for every > man woman and child to enjoy and we want to relegate these people's blood > sweat and tears to a kilted joke, a death certificate, I don't don't bloody > think so. > > So I have again proven what a "wind bag" I am, and shall continue to be so > long as there is breath in my body to stand up and defend and praise these > heroes and heroines. Then again so was the wee lassie who stood up in a > crowded Glasgow football satdium and sang Flower of Scotland until the walls > echoed with a thousand and more voices. Next Saturday I shall be in a parade > in a small town in Central Texas along with 2 self taught pipers and will > distribute all sorts of free information and maps and such so other children > of the exiles will begin their quest. At the junior colege this year a coarse > on Scottish studies was started and a pipe band began by children of exiles > who did not even know their names were Scottish a few months ago. Am I, as I > was just called a wind bag? Your dam right and the subject is the Scottish > Highlands and everyone is welcome to talk and hear and learn. Scots whae hae > wee Wallace bled. > > Well I'll away and drape masel in tartan and sing Flower Of Scotland. Tell > me aren't you glad you asked. Poor man that are getting this blast from a > simple question. I promise I shall shorten my answers in the future. > All the best to you and yours. > Dave > PS for anyone doing research I would recommend the following site that covers > all the Celtic areas <A HREF="http://web2.airmail.net/samhradh/">Radio > Celtic Home Page</A> http://web2.airmail.net/samhradh/ and no its nae me. a > big boy did it and ran off. > >