Somewhere along the line I heard that the expression "Pretender" in relation to Bonnie Prince Charlie actually derives from the French word "prendre," which means "to take." So that it was really BP Charlie, The Taker, and not BP Charlie, The Illusionist. Did you hear about the four Stewarts ... (oops, wrong list). Charlie Fraser Larimer clarimer@prodigy.net ----- Original Message ----- From: <ScotHeritage@aol.com> To: <SCT-INVERNESS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-INV-L] Re: The Term pretender: > I continually see on list the term "PRETENDER" when used in connection with > many of our Scottish Kings and in the case of Bonnie Prince Charlie, who was > infact crowned as a King of Scotland being as his father had stated he would > abdicate when the Jacobite cause was won. > > The books and many educators would have us, at worst, think the term > pretender means an illegitimate claim to the throne, and at best have not > taken an opportunity to correct implications. > > Here is the legal definition of what The Pretender To The throne means. > > Under the terms of the 'Jus Honorum', he (THE PRINCE/KING) retains the > additional right to > create Jacobite titular distinctions in the tradition of his kingly > ancestors. > Although the Stewarts' monarchical position is suspended in practical terms > by > virtue of a prevailing alternative reigning House, Prince Michael's > entitlements still exist under by right of sovereign heritage. Hence, the > 'Jus > Gladii In Pectore and In Potentia' exists 'of right' (de jure) but not in > practice: 'of fact' (de facto). What remains, however, is the legitimate, > legal and justifiable 'pretension' - from which derives the definition > Pretender. >

I've only just caught up with the debate on this topic (?!!) Judging by the comments and attitudes I reckon Iain & Paul would make good moderators for some of the more stiff necked lists I subscribe to. Lighten up boys and enjoy life! Peter, the older of the two Robbos, at Bairnsdale, capital of the Victorian Riviera

I have the main line of may family accounted for. I am running into a problem finding dates of birth for members of my Grandfather's Generation. That generation had ten children. I'm missing dates of birth of four children. I am looking for the dates of birth of the children of Alexander Fraser born 12 November 1849 in Inverness and his wife Annie Munro born 11 March 1858. All the children were born in the Parish of Kiltearn, Evanton, Ross-shire, Scotland. The names are as follows: Uncle John Fraser b1878 Hugh Fraser b1880 Grandfather migrated to the States died 1953 Uncle Andrew Fraser b1885 Uncle Andrew migrated to the States died 1956 Aunt Kate Fraser Aunt Lachlina Fraser Aunt Margaret Fraser Uncle Duncan Fraser -I believe Uncle Duncan was the Postmaster in Dingwall or Evanton Uncle Duncan and Aunt Nellie had a son Alexander(Sandy) living in in England. Sandy might be about 70 years of age now. Aunt Violet Fraser b1900 d1978 Uncle Alexander Fraser b1895 Uncle Alec migrated to the States and died 1973 Aunt Dorothy Fraser b 1904 Dorothy retired from government service. Died in New Mexico on her retirement holiday. She is buried in Scotland. I took the liberty of posting this message in two news groups, as the family originated in Inverness. I'd like to fill in the dates of those I do not have, and a contact with Cousin Sandy would be great. Any information would be appreciated. Regards, Robert http://thefrasers.com This site is dedicated to all people of the name FRASER and - SCOTLAND-

I'm with you Dave. Where else on the internet can you get the flavour of a real highland natter, or a real highland argument. My highland roots are like your daughter's, diluted by being exiled from that environment (in my case to Glasgow). But my father was a Cameron Highlander, and I still remember the stories he told me of his exploits with the 2nd. Battallion in Italy and Greece. I like your stories, too, because they are about real life as it was, not so very long ago. Regards, Iain McKenzie ---------- > From: ScotHeritage@aol.com > To: SCT-INVERNESS-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCT-INV-L] Off-topic posts > Date: 07 September 2000 18:49 > > It would seem then that the list has changed greatly as it used to be used as > a place for Invernesians to have a wee blether, get in contact with those who > moved and those with an interest in things Scottish and Invernesian. Not just > for people to look up the dead or what tartan to wear when and on which > shoulder which is what most of these lists have deteriorated to. It was about > the living of Inverness and also for those seeking information about > ancestors and what their lives were like the social, spiritual and other > aspects of a town, a shire and its culture. > Dave MacLean. > British by law. > Scottish by birth > Highlander by the grace of God. > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <SCT-INVERNESS-L-request@rootsweb.com> >> >

Well said Dave Maclean, I agree entirely. That "delete" button must have confused some people for a long time. Alan Mackenzie

I continually see on list the term "PRETENDER" when used in connection with many of our Scottish Kings and in the case of Bonnie Prince Charlie, who was infact crowned as a King of Scotland being as his father had stated he would abdicate when the Jacobite cause was won. The books and many educators would have us, at worst, think the term pretender means an illegitimate claim to the throne, and at best have not taken an opportunity to correct implications. Here is the legal definition of what The Pretender To The throne means. Under the terms of the 'Jus Honorum', he (THE PRINCE/KING) retains the additional right to create Jacobite titular distinctions in the tradition of his kingly ancestors. Although the Stewarts' monarchical position is suspended in practical terms by virtue of a prevailing alternative reigning House, Prince Michael's entitlements still exist under by right of sovereign heritage. Hence, the 'Jus Gladii In Pectore and In Potentia' exists 'of right' (de jure) but not in practice: 'of fact' (de facto). What remains, however, is the legitimate, legal and justifiable 'pretension' - from which derives the definition Pretender.

In a message dated 07/09/00 9:41:13 AM Central Daylight Time, hdckwth@cc.UManitoba.CA writes: << Dear friends: Well, it seems to be time to get back up on my soap box. The problem with the Olympic swimmer story is not so much that it's a dirty joke, and that people who find that sort of thing offensive should have their privacy respected. The problem is that this mailing list is for *Scottish genealogy*, Inverness branch. That's why people have subscribed, and that's the common factor. Just because we share an interest in Scottish genealogy with a lot of others round the world, doesn't mean that they are also interested in dirty jokes, or in modern Scottish politics for that matter. Even discussions about Hogmanay customs, or recipes for haggis, are a bit dodgy, in my opinion, though at least they're not offensive. It would seem then that the list has changed greatly as it used to be used as a place for Invernesians to have a wee blether, get in contact with those who moved and those with an interest in things Scottish and Invernesian. Not just for people to look up the dead or what tartan to wear when and on which shoulder which is what most of these lists have deteriorated to. It was about the living of Inverness and also for those seeking information about ancestors and what their lives were like the social, spiritual and other aspects of a town, a shire and its culture. Who had been at The Ploughman for a dram, what they were doing in Eastgate, The Palace and The La Scala, Morganties on Academy St. And other topics of interst.and yes Mr. Duckworth even a wee bit Highland humor. But if things have changed I can accept that and do as it seems most native Inverneasians have done and leave the list to the foreigners and tartan police. We have already, most of us, gone to voice contacts anyway. But and I caution you, every time a Scot or an Invernesian leaves this list you loose a bit of the culture and those of us who remember Inverness before it was all built up and what and where all the wee villages and nooks and crannies are. What the market was like on a Saturday, or the stockyards behind the station. Who 40 pockets was, Anny BoBo and Alecy Duff and the laddie with the fiddle on the High Street Bridge, or Greg St. Bridge, What Culloden and the Castles along the Ness Road were like before the tourist councils tore them up. What the Cally was the Cameron Barracks and the Navy from Invergordon. A thousand wee bits of daily life not recorded in any sterile book or death records. But I shall lay quiet and I do promise that when I do share a bit of a joke, which by the way Invernesians like MYSELF are known for it will be to like minded people. The people of Inverness, and the Highlands who have dealt with starvation, genocide, poverty and discrimination for centuries with a wee joke here and a wee joke there to help ease the misery. By the way the joke originated in Inverness and thus is a basic part of the towns culture, told to an Invernesian and by an Invernesian. Perhaps after this we shall just tell our jokes in the Gaelic and that way those of different minds can just be insulted by the language. The subscribers to this mailing list are not like-minded in every respect. We know almost nothing about one another. We come together for one particular purpose, and no one should presume that a common interest in genealogy means a common interest in everything else. It's an invasion of privacy to drag in other topics. Get a grip man the sun will still shine tomorrow, well perhaps not in Inverness but that is not uncommon. As we say in Inverness "You are just opening yer mooth ta let yer bellie rumble" its just not that important in the scheme of things. Those who protest that they didn't find anything offensive in the joke may rejoice privately in their broad-mindedness, but they're missing the point - they have no right to tell others what is offensive. That is why you have a delete button. You are a most fortunate man if you have the time and energy to find this such an issue. I have seen several mailing lists, and more newsgroups and unmoderated discussions, degenerate into "darkling plains, where ignorant armies clash by night", just because a few enthusiasts couldn't keep to the topic. Sincerely, Harry Duckworth And I sir have seen the tartan police, and precocious self righteous wee mannies ruin many a good list because they only want to accept the death certificates of a sterile and imagined past. We of the Highlands were never know for our sobriety of our chastity or our diplomatic skills. We are not scared of a wee joke. That sir is OUR culture and perhaps if that is not acceptable you would be more comfortable in your country, but please do not dare to enter MY culture and attempt to dictate behaviour or cultural expectations. We have had quite enough of that nonsense in our history. I am more than delighted to share my culture and that includes our wee jokes. You are more than welcome to question me, and I dare say QUESTION my actions and state opinions but do not I repeat do not ever attempt to dictate to any Highlander his or Her behaviour or what OUR culture should be in His or Her own realm. Now away and get on with your life. This is just not that important an issue and I am sure when you finish your huffing and your puffing you will realize you have not only heard but spoken much worse yourself. By the way the U.Of Manitoba was that not the University that sent that professor around telling everyone about the different size of mannies willy's and how it affected their intelectual abilities, the Asians being the most intelegent with the weest willies, the Balcks being the least inteligent with the biggest willies and the whites some where in between? Aye that's the one. Good God man talk about offensive I supose you lot must be experts on the subject by now. Dave MacLean. British by law. Scottish by birth Highlander by the grace of God. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <SCT-INVERNESS-L-request@rootsweb.com> >>

No, Iain, you are not alone. The responses suggesting that this was in any way on topic are ridiculous. Paul Fraser, Minneapolis > Hello All, > > Am I alone in thinking that this subject is seriously off-topic? > Not to mention the fact that many listers may be offended by it. > > Best regards, > Iain Rogers, Hong Kong > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <ScotHeritage@aol.com> > To: <SCT-INVERNESS-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:02 AM > Subject: Re: [SCT-INV-L] Re:Scottish Olympic Swimmer + Danish Gymnast > > > > > > > This young swimmer from the Scottish Olympic team manages to sneak > > > his new girlfriend, a gorgeous Danish gymnast, into his room at the > > > >

As you state in your critique of the "Olympic swimmer/Danish gymnist" joke, we all have a right to an opinion and unless the listowner voices an objection to the occasional lighthearted post, then I'm all in favor of it. The problem, of course, is that the list will deteriorate to to the point where it can no longer fulfill its purpose. As long as this doesn't happen too frequently (about as often as the Olympics) I'll enjoy it. Don

Where is your sense of humor- I for one liked it. As far as being off-topic mmmmmmm WHAT WAS the TOPIC???? The Subject was about a scottish swimmer ect. and it was covered well don't you think. Floyd Grant nida rogers wrote: > Hello All, > > Am I alone in thinking that this subject is seriously off-topic? > Not to mention the fact that many listers may be offended by it. > > Best regards, > Iain Rogers, Hong Kong > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <ScotHeritage@aol.com> > To: <SCT-INVERNESS-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:02 AM > Subject: Re: [SCT-INV-L] Re:Scottish Olympic Swimmer + Danish Gymnast > > > > > > This young swimmer from the Scottish Olympic team manages to sneak > > > his new girlfriend, a gorgeous Danish gymnast, into his room at the > >

No, I don't think you are alone in your feelings on this matter. It was entirely inappropriate, and certainly not genealogy, which I thought these lists were for. Ruth Edwards

Hi Fiona There are 65 Alexander Nicolson's listed in the 1881 Census for Inverness-shire, but I think this listing is most likely the family you are looking for: Catherine (Kate) is 11 and old enough to be married in eleven years time, and all the McKay's residing with them would likely be Flora's family. Not sure, but it looks like a good match. Dwelling: (Dryharbour) Census Place: Portree, Inverness, Scotland Source: FHL Film 0203427 GRO Ref Volume 114-2 EnumDist 3 Page 4 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Alexander NICOLSON M 39 M Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Crofter Flora NICOLSON M 34 F Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Wife Catherine NICOLSON 11 F Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar Janet NICOLSON 8 F Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar Niel NICOLSON 5 M Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Son Malcolm NICOLSON 2 M Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Son Janet NICOLSON 6 m F Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Daur Janet MC KAY U 17 F Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Serv Occ: General Serv (Domestic) Marion MC KAY 13 F Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Lodger Occ: Scholar Malcolm MC KAY 11 M Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Lodger Occ: Scholar John MC KAY 9 M Portree, Inverness, Scotland Rel: Lodger Occ: Scholar There are 65 Neil MacLeods listed for Inverness as well, but one in Bernisdale looks like a good match Dwelling: Bernisdale 31 Census Place: Snizort, Inverness, Scotland Source: FHL Film 0203428 GRO Ref Volume 117-2 EnumDist 2 Page 8 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Neil MC LEOD M 54 M Snizort Rel: Head Occ: Merchant Catherine MC LEOD M 41 F Portree Rel: Wife Occ: Merchant Wife Donald MC LEOD U 19 M Snizort Rel: Son Occ: Fisherman John MACLEOD (MC LEOD) U 15 M Snizort Rel: Son Occ: Scholar Flora MACLEOD (MC LEOD) 12 F Snizort Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar Donald Angus MC LEOD 8 M Snizort Rel: Son Occ: Scholar Peggy MACLEOD (MC LEOD) 5 F Snizort Rel: Daur James MC LEOD 2 M Snizort Rel: Son Catherine MC LEAN U 21 F Snizort Rel: Serv Occ: DomServ Ann BUSH M 24 F Glasgow Rel: Relative Occ: Salesmans Wife Maggie BUSH 15 F Cleveland, America Rel: Daur I am still looking for my elusive Donald Nicolson family from Bernisdale. If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know. Regards, Gordon Harbison Canton. Mich fiona@portree.demon.co.uk wrote: > Looking for information on the following: > > John McLeod (or MacLeod) m 16 Jun 1892, Portree. Parents Neil MacLeod, > general merchant and Catherine Beaton. > > Kate (or Katie) Nicholson m 16 Jun 1892, parents Alexander Nicolson and > Flora MacKay. > > I am guessing from the marriage date that both John MacLeod and Kate > Nicholson would have been born around 1870-74. > > Can anyone look up census data for 1881 or 1891, or can anyone suggest > where else I may find out more about these people. > > Thanks > > Fiona > > -- > C & F MacNab

Dear friends: Well, it seems to be time to get back up on my soap box. The problem with the Olympic swimmer story is not so much that it's a dirty joke, and that people who find that sort of thing offensive should have their privacy respected. The problem is that this mailing list is for *Scottish genealogy*, Inverness branch. That's why people have subscribed, and that's the common factor. Just because we share an interest in Scottish genealogy with a lot of others round the world, doesn't mean that they are also interested in dirty jokes, or in modern Scottish politics for that matter. Even discussions about Hogmanay customs, or recipes for haggis, are a bit dodgy, in my opinion, though at least they're not offensive. The subscribers to this mailing list are not like-minded in every respect. We know almost nothing about one another. We come together for one particular purpose, and no one should presume that a common interest in genealogy means a common interest in everything else. It's an invasion of privacy to drag in other topics. Those who protest that they didn't find anything offensive in the joke may rejoice privately in their broad-mindedness, but they're missing the point - they have no right to tell others what is offensive. I have seen several mailing lists, and more newsgroups and unmoderated discussions, degenerate into "darkling plains, where ignorant armies clash by night", just because a few enthusiasts couldn't keep to the topic. Sincerely, Harry Duckworth

In a message dated 07/09/00 2:01:02 AM Central Daylight Time, iainida@hutchcity.com writes: << Hello All, Am I alone in thinking that this subject is seriously off-topic? Not to mention the fact that many listers may be offended by it. Best regards, Iain Rogers, Hong Kong >> Yes Iain, 24 hours later and it appears you are the only one who gets angry and offended at a wee joke. Surely we are allowed to show our teeth in a wee smile now and then. As for off topic? The swimmer is Scottish, Inverness is in Scotland, I am from Inverness this is the Inverness list, Invernesians are amongst the funniest people in the world, well most of them, with a smile on their lips and a kind word and a wee joke when you meet them. I am genuinely sorry you were offended the objective was to give everyone a wee smile. dave

Hello All, Am I alone in thinking that this subject is seriously off-topic? Not to mention the fact that many listers may be offended by it. Best regards, Iain Rogers, Hong Kong ----- Original Message ----- From: <ScotHeritage@aol.com> To: <SCT-INVERNESS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:02 AM Subject: Re: [SCT-INV-L] Re:Scottish Olympic Swimmer + Danish Gymnast > > > This young swimmer from the Scottish Olympic team manages to sneak > > his new girlfriend, a gorgeous Danish gymnast, into his room at the >

Hello List and every Lister, We are looking for any or all available information about the Kennedies of Brae Lochaber as part of our research into the family of Ewen Kennedy and Ann MacDonald, and of their son Alexander Kennedy ex Sgt. 95th Reg of Foot. At the age of 39 Alexander married Sarah Cameron the Dau. of John Cameron and Sarah McMillan in the parish of Kilmonivaig on the 1st of Sept. 1815. Alexander and Sarah had issue of 14 children not all of whom reached adulthood. Some of the children were born in Roy Bridge and others in Brackletter. Of those children that we know about, two migrated to New Zealand and settled in Otago in the South Island. These were Kenneth who married Catherine Colquhoun in Scotland, and Mary who married Hugh MacMaster also in Scotland. A second son Duncan migrated to Australia, and we are in contact with his descendants. At the top of our list is the possibility of contact with descendants of any of the above named marriages. Ewen Kennedy and Ann MacDonald before 1775; John Cameron and Sarah McMillan before 1795; or Alexander Kennedy and Sarah Cameron 1815. We would be pleased to hear about any books that would provide suitable background reading of the life and times of Brae Lochaber and it's people, especially about the Kennedies, during 1700s and 1800s. Some of our family records have been found in the IGI, but some are missing. Where are the old parish records to be found. We know that in some parts of Scotland that a great many church groups sprung up after the Reformation in 1560. We believe that this may have been less extensive in Brae Lochaber because the Clan Chiefs stuck to the Catholic faith of their fathers in support of the Stuart Kings. Could some kind soul tell us where reseach may best be carried out for all church records? Regards to all and good hunting, Greg Blackburn in Paekakariki, New Zealand

Hi Everyone, Is Pauline still on this List? You must be related by the two posts about MacKinnon I got out of the archive. I descend from Margaret dau of John Nicolson and Ann MacKinnon. Have been working on the family for years and have lots of information. Regards, Irene.

Looking for information on the following: John McLeod (or MacLeod) m 16 Jun 1892, Portree. Parents Neil MacLeod, general merchant and Catherine Beaton. Kate (or Katie) Nicholson m 16 Jun 1892, parents Alexander Nicolson and Flora MacKay. I am guessing from the marriage date that both John MacLeod and Kate Nicholson would have been born around 1870-74. Can anyone look up census data for 1881 or 1891, or can anyone suggest where else I may find out more about these people. Thanks Fiona -- C & F MacNab

> This young swimmer from the Scottish Olympic team manages to sneak > his new girlfriend, a gorgeous Danish gymnast, into his room at the > Olympic Village. Once she's inside, he quickly switches out all the > lights and they rapidly disrobe and leap onto his bed in a flurry of > athletic achievement. > After about twenty minutes of wild sex they both collapse back on the > bed in exhaustion. The girl looks admiringly across at the swimmer in > the dim light. His beautifully-developed muscles, tanned skin and > smooth-shaven scalp glisten with little beads of sweat as he lays beside > her. She's really pleased to have met this guy. > At this point the swimmer slowly struggles up from the bed. He fumbles > the lid off a bottle on the bedside table, pours himself a small shot in > a glass and drinks it down in one gulp. Then he stands bolt upright, > takes a deep breath and, in a surprisingly energetic motion, dives under > the bed, climbing out the other side and beating his chest like a > gorilla. Then he vaults back on top of the girl and commences a frantic > repeat performance. The Danish girl is very impressed with the gusto of > this second encounter. Somehow the Aussie has completely recovered from > his previous exhaustion ! After nearly half an hour of wild activity in > every possible position, the gasping male swimmer again crawls out of > bed and swallows another shot of the mysterious liquid. Once more he > dives under the bed, emerges on the other side, beats his chest and > commences to make love all over AGAIN. > The girl is just amazed and delighted as the action continues at the > same blistering pace as before. In the darkness, she can't properly see > what kind of tonic is causing these incredible transformations, but she > sure likes the effect! More than an hour later, after another repeat of > the strange drinking ritual on his part, and a whole string of ecstatic > multiple orgasms on her part, the Danish girl is now feeling rather > faint herself. > "Just a minute, big boy," she whispers to the panting bald-headed > Highlander, "I think I need to try some of your tonic!" She rises unsteadily > and pours a small shot of the liquid. She braces herself for some sort > of medicinal effect, but actually it just tastes like Coca-Cola. Then > she stands up straight, takes a deep breath and dives under the bed - > only to smash straight into the three other exhausted members of the > Scottish relay team.................... > > GO SCOTLAND GO SCOTLAND GO FOR GOLD aye and at the swimming too. > >>

In a message dated 06/09/00 11:25:59 AM Central Daylight Time, b1caez01@home.com writes: << The summer break, of up to four months for University students, is like a cattle market with kids clamouring over each other to get the few to none really good jobs, with the rest having to hunker down in restaurants and deal with the most hardened of owners and patrons. A job not worth a slave's time of day. They are abused and overworked like castoffs from society. But that is the way it has always been. Farmers won't hire them, so they import West Indian and Mexican workers, that work slow but can tolerate the heat and humidity. >> It is not so much that the farmers would not hire them as the students would not apply for the work. The money picking the fruit and in my time tobacco, was fantastic, but the work was hard. When I was in Canada I would try and hire students and found the vast majority, especially from McGill and then U of Ottawa or God help us Carleton were as useless as the preverbal bull. The summer work is a very important part of the education of a child, but the fact is too many are just not worth the price of the paper work to hire them. Now get a kid that has done a year or two at McDonalds or Burger King and you usually have a dam good employee and not some whiny snot who thinks life 101 is to cater to them. As for the cost of University Canada is extremely cheap, try going to school in the States. When the wee one left high school, she had, against my advise, had a job at Baskin Robins for a year and become an assistant manager, she left there to Go to community college for a year to get her University credits and went to work and school full time and became a manager at the telephone sales company she went to. The treated her like crap, but she had a goal and when she resigned she gave proper notice and was earning darn close to $30,000. a year, not bad for a19 year old. She just entered her 2nd year, (first year attendance) at the U of Texas Arlington and was given a job by the school, and because of her reputation she was sought out by a banker she knew to be an assistant manager there. So she works about 30 hours a week and goes to school full time and has refused any offers of help we have given. I am allowed to buy her the odd groceries, and slip her a twenty every now and then, or steal her truck first thing in the morning and fill it up with gas. She is an honour student, and made the deans list every year, and has a very busy social life. Dragging home every loser in the world like she used to drag home the puppies, frogs and everything else as a child. (I do question her taste in males and wish she would wait 10 r 20 years to date but so does every father. My fear is she will bring home someone like her father.) I have noticed in life it seems that the people with the least amount of time are the ones who do the most stuff. Does this have a lot to do with the topic? Probably not but I needed to brag about the wee one a bit. So would I hire a student? Yes, but usually not one from a university although it would really depend on the kid. Dave M.