I would say it is too soon to assume that William Rutherford was a fiction. And I dont think a choice of birthplaces in the census in any way suggests illegitimacy. You are relying on what was put on the form by the householder. Having looked Isabella up in 1881 1891 and 1901, I was confused to see 'William' ABBOTT as head of family in 1881 - have I got the wrong family or is that an error? Anyway, he was head of household and it could be Edinburgh was where he thought his wife was from. In 1819 she is a lodger and her birthplace is just one of a lot of 'dittos' so plenty of room there for error - but in 1901 she would have given her own details as she was head of household. It could be wrong - Paisley could be the first place she remembers living - but it is probably more reliable than the others. and contains at least a clue. For example, my gt gt grandfather John WESTON gave his birthplace as Shropshire or Oswestry until he was listed as a widower in his daughters household. and it is given as Liverpool. She had probably forgotten he came from Shropshire or maybe she never knew. The Ancestry censuses do show a RUTHERFORD family in Paisley, but for me the name is really associated with south east Scotland, and the census records bear this out, in terms of sheer numbers. It is also an area with some pretty large farms including for instance at Maxton where there were indeed RUTHERFORDs to be found farming. This part of Scotland is also one of the strongest areas for religious dissent and this of course would mean that the births of children would not be recorded in the parish registers. I do know of one RUTHERFORD researcher who has found baptisms at one of the Jedburgh dissenting/seceding churches for which records survive and I suggest you search the rootsweb archives for SCT-ROXBURGH and BORDER. As for the occupation of coachman, that could have been a short-lived thing that is not noted in a census. For example, the William RUTHERFORD who was toll-keeper at Monteviot might have had a spell as coachman to the family at the big house, who can tell. Or maybe it was a case of 'bigging-up' the occupation of a groom or a ploughman. But it is certainly true that as well as large and profitable farms one thing the Scottish Borders has in abundance is big fancy houses. Some of these were built for the aristos but others were built with money made in India and again others were the result of the early growth of tourism - holiday homes for the Edinburgh gentry or pavilions used for fishing. The fact that 'nothing fits' in the census doesnt surprise or trouble me. There are plenty of near misses where the fathers occupation may have changed. Its also as well to remember that Isabella could have lost her father early on - if he was not mentioned as deceased on her marriage cert that doesnt mean he was living. Nor does it worry me that Isabella is away from 'home' for her marriage - this was the high Victorian period and basically all she had to do was get a letter from Peter and jump on the next train. It is in fact Peter who may hold the best clues to Isabella. The story of the storms doesnt sound very convincing to me because army units went where they were posted. If you were going to Cork, Cork would be where you went. But I would love to know which regiment he was in as that would allow us to trace his movements with accuracy. Did soldiers need permission to marry? There could be something in the regimental records. There are so many hints and clues in this story I am sure you will crack it in the end. Judy On 27 Dec 2006, at 21:44, pneanne wrote: > Hi Janet, Liz and June, > > Thank you for your replies. > > My great grandfather Peter Abbott had served in the army in the > West Indies > and was supposed to be sailing to Cork, but the weather was too bad > and he > ended up in Edinburgh. He served at the Castle for 12 months in > about 1867. > In 1869 he was in the Barracks in Newport, Monmouthshire and > Isabella was in > a lodging house and they were married in a catholic church nearby. > I don't > know weather she travelled there with him or followed him. Peter > was a > catholic and their children were brought up as catholics, but > Isabella is > buried in the Church of England part of Preston Cemetery and Peter > is buried > in the catholic part. > > They went to Ireland after their marriage and my grandma's brother and > sister were born there. The children after them were born in Preston. > > They named their children William (Peter's father was called > William) and > Isabella said her father was also William, Peter, Elizabeth, Alice > (Peter's > mother's name), John and my grandma Ann Jane. > >> From this I would guess that Isabella's mother was also Isabella, >> Elizabeth, > Ann or Jane. > > Liz, I will do as you suggest and try other spellings of > Rutherford. I know > there can be some weird and wonderful transcriptions on Ancestry. > > June, I have gone sideways, backwards and forwards and everything > else I can > think of. Like you, I am just hoping something hits me in the > face, that I > have not thought of before. > > Unfortunately, I have no-one left that I can ask about their > grandmother. > The only thing I was told about her is that she was a good > christian woman > who read the bible every day and came from a big farm in Scotland. > > I am waiting for the 1911 Preston Census to come out, in the hope > it gives a > more accurate place of birth. I have read that it may be > available in > 2009. > > Best Wishes, > > Anne in Bolton. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Janet" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:00 PM > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HELP - RUTHERFORD > > >> Anne. I just want to say, I sympathise with you in your >> dilemma. I am >> however rather puzzled that Peter Abbott and your Isabella were >> married in >> Newport, Wales when he was eventually posted to Edinburgh Castle >> and then >> Ireland. As a rule, we know that a marriage would have taken >> place in the >> Parish of the bride. Something doesn't quite fit, to my mind. >> >> As to the identity of the father of Isabella, I can empathise >> here. My >> own mother, illegitimate at birth, named her grandfather as her >> father on >> the occasion of her marriage to my father. >> >> The information in the three census records also doesn't seem to >> fit, does >> it. >> >> I am related to a number of Isabella females who came from big >> farms in >> Scotland. It is so that the Scottish naming patterns, when >> applied, cause >> confusion. I would however be inclined to accept the information >> of your >> grandmother, even though we know that grandmothers are given to a >> slight >> loss of detail, and inclined to romanticise, as mine was. >> Nevertheless, as >> to the basics I have found what my grandmother told me to be true. >> >> You're suffering from the migration syndrome where once they >> removed to >> another part of the country, i.e. Britain, anything is possible. >> I have >> something similar. >> >> I would however recommend you try looking for death certificates. >> I have >> found them amazingly useful, calculating dates of death, except, >> with a >> mind that early death is possible. Calculate your grandmother's >> birth and >> have an open mind from there. >> >> I realise that what I have said may have muddied the waters >> somewhat, or >> perhaps not. Don't give up. >> >> Janet >> PS As I have been writing this two or three other responses have >> come in >> which I have not read. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "pneanne" <[email protected]> >> >> >>> Please, please, please, can someone help me to find my great >>> grandmother, >>> >>> I have been researching my family for over 20 years and have also >>> helped >>> numerous other people knock down their brick walls, so I am not a >>> novice, >>> but I am absolutely stuck on my great grandmother Isabella >>> Rutherford >>> born about 1846, Scotland. On the censuses her age is very >>> consistent >>> 1846/47. >>> >>> On her marriage to Peter Abbott of Preston, Lancashire she shows her >>> father as William Rutherford, coachman. Peter and Isabella were >>> married >>> in Newport, Wales, as he was in the army. In 1871 he was >>> stationed in >>> Ireland, so I have not got her on the 1871 Census. >>> >>> Peter Abbott was stationed at Edinburgh Castle in the 1860's >>> before they >>> got married, so she may be from Edinburgh or was living there at the >>> time. >>> >>> On the 1881 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as EDINBURGH. >>> >>> On the 1891 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as PRESTON. >>> >>> On the 1901 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as PAISLEY. >>> >>> Years ago, I sent for a birth certificate for Isabella >>> Rutherford, born >>> 1846 Edinburgh, father William Rutherford. I was sent the >>> certificate for >>> Isabella Rutherford, father William Rutherford, fisherman and >>> Christian >>> Steele, in Newhaven, North Leith. I researched this family for >>> ages and >>> travelled to Edinburgh a few times. I eventually discounted this >>> family, >>> as this Isabella was still in Newhaven, Leith in 1901. I have also >>> discounted Isabella daughter of William Rutherford and Jessie >>> Balmer. >>> >>> I have looked on the 1851 and 1861 Scotland Census Indexes on >>> Ancestry >>> and also looked for births on Scotland's People, but nothing fits. >>> >>> I am beginning to think that Isabella made up the name of her >>> father. >>> >>> One piece of information I had from my auntie was that her >>> grandmother >>> Isabella came from a big farm. >>> >>> If anyone can help me I will be eternally grateful, as I would >>> love to >>> find her family and trace them further back. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Anne in Bolton, Lancashire. >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/604 - Release Date: >> 26/12/2006 12:23 >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

2nd Batt, 6th Regiment - seems to fit. http://www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-inf/006-2.htm According to The Times they arrived in Edinburgh in May 1867 having come from Jamaica via Queenstown (aka Cork) but they had a "fine passage". I will send the story off list. Judy

Hi Judy, Isabella Rutherford married Peter Abbott in a catholic church in Newport, Monmouthshireon 24th August, 1869. His regiment was stationed in Edinburgh from 1867 to 1868. I have the book 'Stirring Incidents in the Life of a British Soldier', an autobiography by Thomas Faughnan. Thomas was a Colour Sergeant in the 2nd Battalion, 6th Royal Regiment and was therefore Peter's Sergeant. I found it interesting how he described their arrival and I thought other people on the list may be interested in the following description of Edinburgh at that time. 'At ten o'clock we disembarked at Leith and marched to Edinburgh Castle, 'Modern Athens', and made a crowd of citizens, the band playing 'Blue Bonnets o'er the Border', and other popular Scottish airs, during the march through the city to the Castle, where we were to be quartered; then the usual bustle of taking over barracks, bed filling, et cetera, was gone through. Edinburgh is a very small garrison, there being only guards to furnish, viz, the Castle, Holyrood Palace, Jacks (sic) Lodge. The force consisted of the 2nd Battalion 6th Regiment and the 14th Light Dragoons. On arrival, the men had a good sum of ship's clearance to draw and being flush with money, made it lively for the police about the Canongate and Lawn Market, so much so that the police undertook to take some of them to the station house. This the soldiers strongly objected to, when a fight ensued; the police got the worst of it, and the soldiers were rescued. Afterwards, they never attempted to take any of our men prisoners, instead of which they reported them at the Orderly Room, when the offenders were punished by the commanding officer. During the twelve months which the 2nd Battalion, 6th Royal Regiment was stationed in Edinburgh, the officers were delighted with the society, which is regarded as unusually pollished, from the predominance of the professional and literary elements in its composition. This arises partly from its being a University town, and partly from the presence of the supreme law courts of Scotland, all the important legal business being attracted thither on that account, the lawyers have charge of most estates throughout the country, so that there are an unusual numner of lawyers and accountants; its medical practitioners, surgeons and physicians, have a high reputation. It is much resorted to for the sake of education, for its universities and medical schools, its High Schools and its numerous private schools. For the poorer classes, part of the enormous funds of 'Heriot's Charity' have been divered for cheaper schools throughout the city. It is largely resorted to by visitors to the Highlands of Scotland, and has an unusual number of well appointed hotels.' It goes on to describe the old town and the new town and Holyrood Palace, etc. 'The 2nd Battalion, 6th Regiment was stationed in Edinburgh Castle over twelve months when they got the route for Aldersot camp on 30th May, 1868.' Now, I just have to find Isabella in Scotland in 1851 and 1861. Although I can't find her birth, she must be on one of these censuses. Anne in Bolton. ----- Original Message ----- From: "judy olsen" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:05 PM Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Peter ABBOTT was Rutherford etc > > 2nd Batt, 6th Regiment - seems to fit. > > http://www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-inf/006-2.htm > > > According to The Times they arrived in Edinburgh in May 1867 having > come from Jamaica via Queenstown (aka Cork) but they had a "fine > passage". > > I will send the story off list. > > > Judy > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/606 - Release Date: > 28/12/2006 00:22 > >

Hi Judy, I was unable to find a baptism record for Isbella Rutherford born about 1846 to a William, at New Register House. I mistakenly researched Isabella Rutherford born 1846 Newhaven, North Leith, to William Rutherford and Christian Steele, for many years. This is the birth certificate I was sent. I visited Newhaven a few times and it was like a bereavement when I found out she was not mine. I had become very attached to her. You have got the correct Abbott family on the 1881 Census in Preston. The enumerator named the head of the household William, but it should be Peter. Peter's father William Abbott lived next door to him and was a provision dealer, but had formerly worked in the cotton industry. On the marriage certificate to Isabella Rutherford, William says his father was an accountant. I agree with you that most Rutherford's came from the border areas. They probably got their surname from the small place in the borders called Rutherford. I found a William Rutherford married to Jessie Balmer. He was a shepherd and they had a daughter Isabella born about the same time as mine, but I found Isabella's marriage. I found a William Rutherford in Paisley but he was an auctioneer and book seller. I also found an Isabella born about 1846 to a William Rutherford and Janet Hay, but their first daughter Isabella died and they had another daughter also named Isabella born about 1850. Thank you very much for sending me the newspaper extract about Peter's regiment arriving in Scotland. I paid a researcher to find his army record, as on one of the censuses it showed him as a pensioner. In 1872 Peter was a Private in the 2nd Batallion/6th Regiment at the Curragh Camp in Co. Kildare, Ireland. This is where one of his children was born. Another one was born in Belfast about 1874. He also served in Gibraltar, Ionian Islands and the West Indies. I bought a book written by a seargant major in the regiment and he kept a diary detailing their service in the West Indies and Edinburgh. In this he said about the ship not being able to land in Cork. I think this sergeant major went to live in Paisley then moved to Canada. I will dig the book out and let you know the details. Thank you for your help. Kind regards, Anne in Bolton. ----- Original Message ----- From: "judy olsen" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HELP - RUTHERFORD >I would say it is too soon to assume that William Rutherford was a > fiction. And I dont think a choice of birthplaces in the census in > any way suggests illegitimacy. You are relying on what was put on the > form by the householder. > > Having looked Isabella up in 1881 1891 and 1901, I was confused to > see 'William' ABBOTT as head of family in 1881 - have I got the wrong > family or is that an error? > > Anyway, he was head of household and it could be Edinburgh was where > he thought his wife was from. In 1819 she is a lodger and her > birthplace is just one of a lot of 'dittos' so plenty of room there > for error - but in 1901 she would have given her own details as she > was head of household. It could be wrong - Paisley could be the first > place she remembers living - but it is probably more reliable than > the others. and contains at least a clue. > > For example, my gt gt grandfather John WESTON gave his birthplace as > Shropshire or Oswestry until he was listed as a widower in his > daughters household. and it is given as Liverpool. She had probably > forgotten he came from Shropshire or maybe she never knew. > > The Ancestry censuses do show a RUTHERFORD family in Paisley, but for > me the name is really associated with south east Scotland, and the > census records bear this out, in terms of sheer numbers. It is also > an area with some pretty large farms including for instance at Maxton > where there were indeed RUTHERFORDs to be found farming. > > This part of Scotland is also one of the strongest areas for > religious dissent and this of course would mean that the births of > children would not be recorded in the parish registers. I do know of > one RUTHERFORD researcher who has found baptisms at one of the > Jedburgh dissenting/seceding churches for which records survive and I > suggest you search the rootsweb archives for SCT-ROXBURGH and BORDER. > > As for the occupation of coachman, that could have been a short-lived > thing that is not noted in a census. For example, the William > RUTHERFORD who was toll-keeper at Monteviot might have had a spell as > coachman to the family at the big house, who can tell. Or maybe it > was a case of 'bigging-up' the occupation of a groom or a ploughman. > But it is certainly true that as well as large and profitable farms > one thing the Scottish Borders has in abundance is big fancy houses. > Some of these were built for the aristos but others were built with > money made in India and again others were the result of the early > growth of tourism - holiday homes for the Edinburgh gentry or > pavilions used for fishing. > > The fact that 'nothing fits' in the census doesnt surprise or trouble > me. There are plenty of near misses where the fathers occupation may > have changed. Its also as well to remember that Isabella could have > lost her father early on - if he was not mentioned as deceased on her > marriage cert that doesnt mean he was living. Nor does it worry me > that Isabella is away from 'home' for her marriage - this was the > high Victorian period and basically all she had to do was get a > letter from Peter and jump on the next train. > > It is in fact Peter who may hold the best clues to Isabella. The > story of the storms doesnt sound very convincing to me because army > units went where they were posted. If you were going to Cork, Cork > would be where you went. But I would love to know which regiment he > was in as that would allow us to trace his movements with accuracy. > Did soldiers need permission to marry? There could be something in > the regimental records. > > There are so many hints and clues in this story I am sure you will > crack it in the end. > > > Judy > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 Dec 2006, at 21:44, pneanne wrote: > >> Hi Janet, Liz and June, >> >> Thank you for your replies. >> >> My great grandfather Peter Abbott had served in the army in the >> West Indies >> and was supposed to be sailing to Cork, but the weather was too bad >> and he >> ended up in Edinburgh. He served at the Castle for 12 months in >> about 1867. >> In 1869 he was in the Barracks in Newport, Monmouthshire and >> Isabella was in >> a lodging house and they were married in a catholic church nearby. >> I don't >> know weather she travelled there with him or followed him. Peter >> was a >> catholic and their children were brought up as catholics, but >> Isabella is >> buried in the Church of England part of Preston Cemetery and Peter >> is buried >> in the catholic part. >> >> They went to Ireland after their marriage and my grandma's brother and >> sister were born there. The children after them were born in Preston. >> >> They named their children William (Peter's father was called >> William) and >> Isabella said her father was also William, Peter, Elizabeth, Alice >> (Peter's >> mother's name), John and my grandma Ann Jane. >> >>> From this I would guess that Isabella's mother was also Isabella, >>> Elizabeth, >> Ann or Jane. >> >> Liz, I will do as you suggest and try other spellings of >> Rutherford. I know >> there can be some weird and wonderful transcriptions on Ancestry. >> >> June, I have gone sideways, backwards and forwards and everything >> else I can >> think of. Like you, I am just hoping something hits me in the >> face, that I >> have not thought of before. >> >> Unfortunately, I have no-one left that I can ask about their >> grandmother. >> The only thing I was told about her is that she was a good >> christian woman >> who read the bible every day and came from a big farm in Scotland. >> >> I am waiting for the 1911 Preston Census to come out, in the hope >> it gives a >> more accurate place of birth. I have read that it may be >> available in >> 2009. >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> Anne in Bolton. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Janet" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:00 PM >> Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HELP - RUTHERFORD >> >> >>> Anne. I just want to say, I sympathise with you in your >>> dilemma. I am >>> however rather puzzled that Peter Abbott and your Isabella were >>> married in >>> Newport, Wales when he was eventually posted to Edinburgh Castle >>> and then >>> Ireland. As a rule, we know that a marriage would have taken >>> place in the >>> Parish of the bride. Something doesn't quite fit, to my mind. >>> >>> As to the identity of the father of Isabella, I can empathise >>> here. My >>> own mother, illegitimate at birth, named her grandfather as her >>> father on >>> the occasion of her marriage to my father. >>> >>> The information in the three census records also doesn't seem to >>> fit, does >>> it. >>> >>> I am related to a number of Isabella females who came from big >>> farms in >>> Scotland. It is so that the Scottish naming patterns, when >>> applied, cause >>> confusion. I would however be inclined to accept the information >>> of your >>> grandmother, even though we know that grandmothers are given to a >>> slight >>> loss of detail, and inclined to romanticise, as mine was. >>> Nevertheless, as >>> to the basics I have found what my grandmother told me to be true. >>> >>> You're suffering from the migration syndrome where once they >>> removed to >>> another part of the country, i.e. Britain, anything is possible. >>> I have >>> something similar. >>> >>> I would however recommend you try looking for death certificates. >>> I have >>> found them amazingly useful, calculating dates of death, except, >>> with a >>> mind that early death is possible. Calculate your grandmother's >>> birth and >>> have an open mind from there. >>> >>> I realise that what I have said may have muddied the waters >>> somewhat, or >>> perhaps not. Don't give up. >>> >>> Janet >>> PS As I have been writing this two or three other responses have >>> come in >>> which I have not read. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "pneanne" <[email protected]> >>> >>> >>>> Please, please, please, can someone help me to find my great >>>> grandmother, >>>> >>>> I have been researching my family for over 20 years and have also >>>> helped >>>> numerous other people knock down their brick walls, so I am not a >>>> novice, >>>> but I am absolutely stuck on my great grandmother Isabella >>>> Rutherford >>>> born about 1846, Scotland. On the censuses her age is very >>>> consistent >>>> 1846/47. >>>> >>>> On her marriage to Peter Abbott of Preston, Lancashire she shows her >>>> father as William Rutherford, coachman. Peter and Isabella were >>>> married >>>> in Newport, Wales, as he was in the army. In 1871 he was >>>> stationed in >>>> Ireland, so I have not got her on the 1871 Census. >>>> >>>> Peter Abbott was stationed at Edinburgh Castle in the 1860's >>>> before they >>>> got married, so she may be from Edinburgh or was living there at the >>>> time. >>>> >>>> On the 1881 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as EDINBURGH. >>>> >>>> On the 1891 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as PRESTON. >>>> >>>> On the 1901 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as PAISLEY. >>>> >>>> Years ago, I sent for a birth certificate for Isabella >>>> Rutherford, born >>>> 1846 Edinburgh, father William Rutherford. I was sent the >>>> certificate for >>>> Isabella Rutherford, father William Rutherford, fisherman and >>>> Christian >>>> Steele, in Newhaven, North Leith. I researched this family for >>>> ages and >>>> travelled to Edinburgh a few times. I eventually discounted this >>>> family, >>>> as this Isabella was still in Newhaven, Leith in 1901. I have also >>>> discounted Isabella daughter of William Rutherford and Jessie >>>> Balmer. >>>> >>>> I have looked on the 1851 and 1861 Scotland Census Indexes on >>>> Ancestry >>>> and also looked for births on Scotland's People, but nothing fits. >>>> >>>> I am beginning to think that Isabella made up the name of her >>>> father. >>>> >>>> One piece of information I had from my auntie was that her >>>> grandmother >>>> Isabella came from a big farm. >>>> >>>> If anyone can help me I will be eternally grateful, as I would >>>> love to >>>> find her family and trace them further back. >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Anne in Bolton, Lancashire. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/604 - Release Date: >>> 26/12/2006 12:23 >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/606 - Release Date: > 28/12/2006 00:22 > >