Good morning Jacquie, Here is the exact wording on the birth certificate of Eva: - Name and Surname: - Eva Christian BROWN. When and Where born: - 1909 December, Twenty fourth 3 hour, 30 mins at 86 Grove Street, Edinburgh. Name, Surname and Rank or Profession of father. Name and maiden Surname of Mother. Date and Place of Marriage No father's name given ANN MILNE BROWN - daughter of a butcher's assistant. Signature and Qualification of Informant etc: - (Signed) Ann Milne Brown - Mother When and Where Registered and Signature of Registrar: - 1910 - January at Edinburgh (Signed) W.Cowan ???? - Registrar. ***** John Brown Snr who married Mary Knowles in 1879 - had four known children, John Brown born circa 1880, Mary H Brown born circa 1883, Ann Milne Brown b. 28 May 1885 and died 16th Feb 1886, and Alexander Brown born circa 1890 all in Edinburgh. Now the John Brown 23 you have married to Ann Brown (nee Pearson) in the 1901 Census living at 86 Grove Street, Edinburgh must be the eldest brother and this mysterious Ann Milne Brown was living with them while pregnant, when she gave birth to Eva in 1909. In the 1891 Census, the father John Brown is living in Grove Street (is there a street # ?) with his wife and family as per Rhoda's email, the question here is how many children? Just John, Mary and Alexander? Or is an Ann there too? Is this mysterious Ann who gave birth to Eva, a daughter born after the death of the first Ann, and before or after the birth of brother Alexander in 1890? So the question is, is there an Ann Milne Brown anywhere on the 1891 Census? However, she may have been born after 1891 and would not be on that Census, though she would have to be on the 1901 Census aged around 9 years of age. In the 1901 Census we have Widower John Brown (Mary died at the age of 36 in 1898) and two of his children Mary 17 (born 1883/84) and Alexander (born 1890) and they are living in Grove Street. Are they also at 86, with John and his wife Mary Brown? This John could be a cousin. When Bob received a copy of his mother's birth certificate from Scotland after her death in 1994 in Manly, Sydney (this was required by the Birth, Deaths and Marriages in New South Wales), this was the first time he saw the name of his maternal grandmother, Ann Milne Brown, same name as his mother's maiden name and he noted no father's name was given for Eva. This got his curiosity going and he made a trip back to Scotland, trying to find the answers. While there he employed an Agency to try and find the answers and it was this Agency that put together the family tree: - Alexander Brown married Ann Gammond sometime in the 1830s, they had three known children, Margaret b. 1836, John b. 1839, Isabella born 1841 and James Brown b. 1844. Son John (b. 1839) married Ann Milne on 21st March 1861, they had two known children (there could be more) John Brown b. 1858/60 and Ann Brown b 18th May 1865. Their son John Brown (b. 1858/60) married Mary Knowles 31st Dec 1879 in Edinburgh. They had four know children, John b. 1880, Mary H b. 1883, Ann Milne b. 1885 d. 1886 and Alexander Brown b. 1890. The Agency did not look for a death of Ann Milne Brown, as they had in their hand the birth certificate of Eva, and her mother was Ann Milne Brown the daughter of a Butcher's assistant, so they had no reason to look for her death, however we now know if they had done so, they would have found that the Ann on the birth certificate born in 1885, died at the age of 8 months in 1886. Where to from here? Thank you all for you assistance, I cannot thank you enough, however we now have a bigger mystery. Who ever the Ann is who gave birth to Eva, she is related to these Browns of Grove Street, she must be as she is living with them when Eva was born and she definitely claims on her daughter Eva's birth certificate, that she Ann was the daughter of a Butcher's assistant. I will suggest that Bob join the scotlandpeople Website. Regards, Janice Belrose - Sydney Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacquie" <jjjcmj@mts.net> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 6:26 AM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] John Brown and Mary Knowles > Does the birth registration for Eva Christian Brown actually say that Ann > Milne Brown was the > daughter of a butcher's assistant? Would it be possible for you to provide > the exact wording from > the parents' names box of Eva Christian Brown's birth registration? > >>From Ancestry, on the 1901 census there is the following entry: > > 86 Grove Street, St George, Edinburgh > John Brown, head, age: 23, occupation: railway engine stoker, born: > Edinburgh > Annie Brown, wife, age: 23, born: Edinburgh > > There is a marriage for a John Brown and Ann Thomson Paterson which took > place 22 Mar 1901 in St. > George, Edinburgh. John Brown, age: 23, railway servant, son of David > Brown, barman and Isabella > Brown, maiden surname Pearson (I think, difficult to read), usual > residence 108 Lewiston Place, > Edinburgh. Ann Thomson Brown, age: 23, rubber worker, daughter of Joseph > Paterson, house painter and > Elizabeth Paterson, maiden surname McNaughton, usual residence 80 Grove > Street, Edinburgh. Ann > Thomson Paterson Brown died in Glasgow in 1953. > > It is possible that this John Brown may be a relation to John Brown, > butcher who was also at 86 > Grove Street on the 1901 census. > > Jacquie > Winnipeg, MB > Canada

I don't think the John Brown who was at 86 Grove Street on the 1901 census is the same John Brown who was the son of John Brown, butcher. The marriage registration for John Brown to Ann Paterson indicated his parents were David Brown, barman and Isabella Pearson. It is possible they were related but then again Brown is such a common name that they may not be related at all and it was just a coincidence that they were living at the same address. I found a marriage registration for David Brown to Isabella Pearson and it indicates his parents were John Brown, coal merchant and Crawford Taylor. It seems possible that Eva Christian Brown's mother lied on the birth registration because she didn't want to be connected to an illegitimate birth. If that's the case, the mystery might never be solved except that you would have to suspect that the birth mother may have been a relative of Ann Milne Brown in order to have known about her. Personally, I think Bob should demand a refund from the agency he hired. They did shoddy work, in my opinion, by not checking to see if they had the correct Ann Milne Brown. It would have taken them less than 5 minutes to find the death registration if they had looked and they should have looked. That mistake brings the entire family tree they created into question because they can't link Eva Christian Brown to a child of John Brown and Mary Knowles. As things stand now, there is no proof of a relationship. Personally, if I were Bob, I would disregard this agency's work and start from scratch. Jacquie Winnipeg, MB Canada -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janice Doughty Sent: September 13, 2008 5:40 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] John Brown and Mary Knowles Good morning Jacquie, Here is the exact wording on the birth certificate of Eva: - Name and Surname: - Eva Christian BROWN. When and Where born: - 1909 December, Twenty fourth 3 hour, 30 mins at 86 Grove Street, Edinburgh. Name, Surname and Rank or Profession of father. Name and maiden Surname of Mother. Date and Place of Marriage No father's name given ANN MILNE BROWN - daughter of a butcher's assistant. Signature and Qualification of Informant etc: - (Signed) Ann Milne Brown - Mother When and Where Registered and Signature of Registrar: - 1910 - January at Edinburgh (Signed) W.Cowan ???? - Registrar. ***** John Brown Snr who married Mary Knowles in 1879 - had four known children, John Brown born circa 1880, Mary H Brown born circa 1883, Ann Milne Brown b. 28 May 1885 and died 16th Feb 1886, and Alexander Brown born circa 1890 all in Edinburgh. Now the John Brown 23 you have married to Ann Brown (nee Pearson) in the 1901 Census living at 86 Grove Street, Edinburgh must be the eldest brother and this mysterious Ann Milne Brown was living with them while pregnant, when she gave birth to Eva in 1909. In the 1891 Census, the father John Brown is living in Grove Street (is there a street # ?) with his wife and family as per Rhoda's email, the question here is how many children? Just John, Mary and Alexander? Or is an Ann there too? Is this mysterious Ann who gave birth to Eva, a daughter born after the death of the first Ann, and before or after the birth of brother Alexander in 1890? So the question is, is there an Ann Milne Brown anywhere on the 1891 Census? However, she may have been born after 1891 and would not be on that Census, though she would have to be on the 1901 Census aged around 9 years of age. In the 1901 Census we have Widower John Brown (Mary died at the age of 36 in 1898) and two of his children Mary 17 (born 1883/84) and Alexander (born 1890) and they are living in Grove Street. Are they also at 86, with John and his wife Mary Brown? This John could be a cousin. When Bob received a copy of his mother's birth certificate from Scotland after her death in 1994 in Manly, Sydney (this was required by the Birth, Deaths and Marriages in New South Wales), this was the first time he saw the name of his maternal grandmother, Ann Milne Brown, same name as his mother's maiden name and he noted no father's name was given for Eva. This got his curiosity going and he made a trip back to Scotland, trying to find the answers. While there he employed an Agency to try and find the answers and it was this Agency that put together the family tree: - Alexander Brown married Ann Gammond sometime in the 1830s, they had three known children, Margaret b. 1836, John b. 1839, Isabella born 1841 and James Brown b. 1844. Son John (b. 1839) married Ann Milne on 21st March 1861, they had two known children (there could be more) John Brown b. 1858/60 and Ann Brown b 18th May 1865. Their son John Brown (b. 1858/60) married Mary Knowles 31st Dec 1879 in Edinburgh. They had four know children, John b. 1880, Mary H b. 1883, Ann Milne b. 1885 d. 1886 and Alexander Brown b. 1890. The Agency did not look for a death of Ann Milne Brown, as they had in their hand the birth certificate of Eva, and her mother was Ann Milne Brown the daughter of a Butcher's assistant, so they had no reason to look for her death, however we now know if they had done so, they would have found that the Ann on the birth certificate born in 1885, died at the age of 8 months in 1886. Where to from here? Thank you all for you assistance, I cannot thank you enough, however we now have a bigger mystery. Who ever the Ann is who gave birth to Eva, she is related to these Browns of Grove Street, she must be as she is living with them when Eva was born and she definitely claims on her daughter Eva's birth certificate, that she Ann was the daughter of a Butcher's assistant. I will suggest that Bob join the scotlandpeople Website. Regards, Janice Belrose - Sydney Australia

Hi Janice I can't remember if anyone else has mentioned this, but do you think that the "Butcher's Assistant" mentioned below could be the mother of Annie Milne Brown, rather than the father. She may have been illegitimate herself. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice Doughty" <adoughty01@optusnet.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] John Brown and Mary Knowles > Good morning Jacquie, > > Here is the exact wording on the birth certificate of Eva: - > > Name and Surname: - Eva Christian BROWN. > > When and Where born: - 1909 December, Twenty fourth 3 hour, 30 mins at 86 > Grove Street, Edinburgh. > > Name, Surname and Rank or Profession of father. > Name and maiden Surname of Mother. > Date and Place of Marriage > No father's name given > ANN MILNE BROWN - daughter of a butcher's assistant. > > Signature and Qualification of Informant etc: - > (Signed) > Ann Milne Brown - Mother > > When and Where Registered and Signature of Registrar: - > 1910 - January at Edinburgh (Signed) W.Cowan ???? - Registrar. > > ***** > > John Brown Snr who married Mary Knowles in 1879 - had four known children, > John Brown born circa 1880, Mary H Brown born circa 1883, Ann Milne Brown > b. > 28 May 1885 and died 16th Feb 1886, and Alexander Brown born circa 1890 > all > in Edinburgh. > > Now the John Brown 23 you have married to Ann Brown (nee Pearson) in the > 1901 Census living at 86 Grove Street, Edinburgh must be the eldest > brother > and this mysterious Ann Milne Brown was living with them while pregnant, > when she gave birth to Eva in 1909. > > In the 1891 Census, the father John Brown is living in Grove Street (is > there a street # ?) with his wife and family as per Rhoda's email, the > question here is how many children? Just John, Mary and Alexander? Or is > an > Ann there too? Is this mysterious Ann who gave birth to Eva, a daughter > born after the death of the first Ann, and before or after the birth of > brother Alexander in 1890? So the question is, is there an Ann Milne > Brown > anywhere on the 1891 Census? However, she may have been born after 1891 > and > would not be on that Census, though she would have to be on the 1901 > Census > aged around 9 years of age. > > In the 1901 Census we have Widower John Brown (Mary died at the age of 36 > in > 1898) and two of his children Mary 17 (born 1883/84) and Alexander (born > 1890) and they are living in Grove Street. Are they also at 86, with John > and his wife Mary Brown? This John could be a cousin. > > When Bob received a copy of his mother's birth certificate from Scotland > after her death in 1994 in Manly, Sydney (this was required by the Birth, > Deaths and Marriages in New South Wales), this was the first time he saw > the > name of his maternal grandmother, Ann Milne Brown, same name as his > mother's > maiden name and he noted no father's name was given for Eva. This got his > curiosity going and he made a trip back to Scotland, trying to find the > answers. While there he employed an Agency to try and find the answers > and > it was this Agency that put together the family tree: - > > Alexander Brown married Ann Gammond sometime in the 1830s, they had three > known children, Margaret b. 1836, John b. 1839, Isabella born 1841 and > James > Brown b. 1844. > > Son John (b. 1839) married Ann Milne on 21st March 1861, they had two > known > children (there could be more) John Brown b. 1858/60 and Ann Brown b 18th > May 1865. > > Their son John Brown (b. 1858/60) married Mary Knowles 31st Dec 1879 in > Edinburgh. They had four know children, John b. 1880, Mary H b. 1883, Ann > Milne b. 1885 d. 1886 and Alexander Brown b. 1890. > > The Agency did not look for a death of Ann Milne Brown, as they had in > their > hand the birth certificate of Eva, and her mother was Ann Milne Brown the > daughter of a Butcher's assistant, so they had no reason to look for her > death, however we now know if they had done so, they would have found that > the Ann on the birth certificate born in 1885, died at the age of 8 months > in 1886. > > Where to from here? Thank you all for you assistance, I cannot thank you > enough, however we now have a bigger mystery. Who ever the Ann is who > gave > birth to Eva, she is related to these Browns of Grove Street, she must be > as > she is living with them when Eva was born and she definitely claims on her > daughter Eva's birth certificate, that she Ann was the daughter of a > Butcher's assistant. > > I will suggest that Bob join the scotlandpeople Website. > > Regards, > Janice > Belrose - Sydney > Australia > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jacquie" <jjjcmj@mts.net> > To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 6:26 AM > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] John Brown and Mary Knowles > > >> Does the birth registration for Eva Christian Brown actually say that Ann >> Milne Brown was the >> daughter of a butcher's assistant? Would it be possible for you to >> provide >> the exact wording from >> the parents' names box of Eva Christian Brown's birth registration? >> >>>From Ancestry, on the 1901 census there is the following entry: >> >> 86 Grove Street, St George, Edinburgh >> John Brown, head, age: 23, occupation: railway engine stoker, born: >> Edinburgh >> Annie Brown, wife, age: 23, born: Edinburgh >> >> There is a marriage for a John Brown and Ann Thomson Paterson which took >> place 22 Mar 1901 in St. >> George, Edinburgh. John Brown, age: 23, railway servant, son of David >> Brown, barman and Isabella >> Brown, maiden surname Pearson (I think, difficult to read), usual >> residence 108 Lewiston Place, >> Edinburgh. Ann Thomson Brown, age: 23, rubber worker, daughter of Joseph >> Paterson, house painter and >> Elizabeth Paterson, maiden surname McNaughton, usual residence 80 Grove >> Street, Edinburgh. Ann >> Thomson Paterson Brown died in Glasgow in 1953. >> >> It is possible that this John Brown may be a relation to John Brown, >> butcher who was also at 86 >> Grove Street on the 1901 census. >> >> Jacquie >> Winnipeg, MB >> Canada > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >