Hi Ron I wouldn't be too bothered about the age on the 1901 census being out by 3 years. It could be a transcription error or deliberate on the part of the person involved. If it was someone else who filled in the census they may have been mistaken about her exact age. Anything on a death certificate has been given by the informant. They may ar may not have deliberately omitted some details. Have you found a marriage certificate for her with Burgess and with Gillespie? Cheers Ella Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Brown" <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother > thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the > 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on > the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years > > If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with > Joseph > Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death > registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. > > Thanks > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie > Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 11:24 AM > To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina Gillespie, > other surnames Burges and > Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the > site. > > Jacquie > Winnipeg, MB > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Ron Brown > Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM > To: Edinburgh email list > Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > Hello, > > I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have > lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have > located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or > otherwise. > > Thanks > > Ron > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi John. If my great grandmother was still married at the time could she simply walk away from that marriage and enter one of the other forms of marriage in Scotland at the time? Was divorce common then? Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J D Dods Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 2:08 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ron, a suggestion. Rather than trying to prove the Georgina Gillespie you found in 1901 was yours, have you tried to disprove it? Also remember "marriage by repute"  and "marriage by declearation" were legal forms of marriage in Scotland at this time and neither required to be registered. cheers John  Proud to be a transcriber for the freeCEN Project and volunteer for Random Acts of Geneological Kindness Ask me how you can contribute to either of these worthy projects or for other ways of helping our hobby. Researching BATTERS in Yorkshire BENNIE in Lanarkshire, Dunbartonshire & West Lothian BENNING in Lanarkshire & Montreal COLLINS in California & PA COOPER in Yorkshire DODS in East Lothian, Berwickshire, British Columbia, Montreal, Manchester, South Africa, Hong Kong, India DOUGLAS in Lanarkshire FENTON in Edinbugh FISHER in Yorkshire FORREST in South Africa HAYTON in Yorkshire HEWAT in East Lothian LAMONT in Lanarkshire LEGGAT in Monreal MCLEAN in Argyllshire RANKINE in Dunbartonshire, Perthshire SEYMOUR in British Columbia & Montreal SHIRREFF in East Lothian SNELL in California, Oregeon SUFFILL/SUFFIELD in Yorkshire TROTTER, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, West Lothian WATSON in Brantford & Barrie, Ontario. WEIR in Argyllshire,Lanarkshie WILLIAMSON in Edinburgh & North Berwick ----- Original Message ---- From: Ron Brown <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 24 November, 2008 5:34:48 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ella, I wish Ella! I have not been able to find a marriage for Gillespie & Burgess. On her death Registration from ScotlandsPeople it lists her given name as Georgina Ballantyne Gillespie, underneath in brackets it says "otherwise Burgess"  widow of John Francis Burgess. I'm not sure if I'm being too pedantic but id hate to be going down the wrong path. Thanks Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ella Ross Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 1:14 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ron I wouldn't be too bothered about the age on the 1901 census being out by 3 years. It could be a transcription error or deliberate on the part of the person involved.  If it was someone else who filled in the census they may have been mistaken about her exact age. Anything on a death certificate has been given by the informant.  They may ar may not have deliberately omitted some details. Have you found a marriage certificate for her with Burgess and with Gillespie? Cheers Ella Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Brown" <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother > thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the > 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on > the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years > > If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with > Joseph > Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death > registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. > > Thanks > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie > Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 11:24 AM > To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina Gillespie, > other surnames Burges and > Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the > site. > > Jacquie > Winnipeg, MB > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Ron Brown > Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM > To: Edinburgh email list > Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > Hello, > > I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have > lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have > located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or > otherwise. > > Thanks > > Ron > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Easy recipes for Christmas entertaining on Yahoo!Xtra Lifestyle- http://nz.lifestyle.yahoo.com/food-recipes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That's right Jacquie. I have the 1901 census for Joseph Gillespie and his family in Canonogate. Is that the same information that you have? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 2:41 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname I just want to clarify something - you are researching Joseph Gillespie and Georgina Spence, correct? If so, I may have found some census information regarding Joseph Gillespie. Jacquie -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Brown Sent: November 23, 2008 11:31 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ella, You are correct. That marriage is my great grandparents marriage for 14 Oct 1890 in North Leith. Thanks again Ron ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ella, You are correct. That marriage is my great grandparents marriage for 14 Oct 1890 in North Leith. Thanks again Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ella Ross Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 2:16 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ron Further to your email and a message from Jacquie of Winnipeg. Looks like she wasn't officially married to Joseph Gillespie. I have had a quick look in www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and there is a result for a marriage between 1890and 1895 for a John Burgess and a Georgina Spence. I'd have a look at that certificate. In addition "common Law" marriage was not uncommon. See below. Until recently in Scotland, there was a form of common law marriage called 'marriage by cohabitation with habit and repute'. The theory behind this law was that if a man and woman cohabited as husband and wife in Scotland for sufficient time and were generally held and reputed to be husband and wife and were free to marry each other, they would be presumed to have consented to marry each other and if this presumption was not overturned, they would be considered to be legally married. This form of common law marriage has now been abolished by the Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006 which came into force on 4 May 2006. Cheers Ella Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Brown" <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > Hi Ella, > > I wish Ella! I have not been able to find a marriage for Gillespie & > Burgess. On her death Registration from ScotlandsPeople it lists her given > name as Georgina Ballantyne Gillespie, underneath in brackets it says > "otherwise Burgess" widow of John Francis Burgess. > > I'm not sure if I'm being too pedantic but id hate to be going down the > wrong path. > > Thanks > Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ella Ross > Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 1:14 PM > To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > Hi Ron > I wouldn't be too bothered about the age on the 1901 census being out by 3 > years. It could be a transcription error or deliberate on the part of the > person involved. If it was someone else who filled in the census they may > have been mistaken about her exact age. > > Anything on a death certificate has been given by the informant. They may > ar may not have deliberately omitted some details. > > Have you found a marriage certificate for her with Burgess and with > Gillespie? > > Cheers > Ella Ross > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Brown" <suenron@southwest.com.au> > To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 2:31 PM > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > >> Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother >> thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on >> the >> 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info >> on >> the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years >> >> If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with >> Joseph >> Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death >> registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. >> >> Thanks >> Ron >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie >> Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 11:24 AM >> To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname >> >> At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina >> Gillespie, >> other surnames Burges and >> Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the >> site. >> >> Jacquie >> Winnipeg, MB >> Canada >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of >> Ron Brown >> Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM >> To: Edinburgh email list >> Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname >> >> Hello, >> >> I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may >> have >> lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I >> have >> located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or >> otherwise. >> >> Thanks >> >> Ron >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thankyou Jacquie and Ella for solving my brick wall so fast. I had never thought to look up a birth for Joseph or Maggie Gillespie as my father thought Joseph had them from a previous marriage which you have proven wrong. Incidentally, my fathers name is Joseph Lily Gillespie Brown I guess we now know where the name came from. Thanks again Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 1:40 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname The Georgina with Joseph Gillespie is definitely your Georgina. I checked the birth registration for Joseph Gillespie, age 5 months that is listed with them and found an entry in Canongate for Joseph Lillie Gillespie, illegitimate, born 11 Oct 1900 to Joseph Gillespie, mason and Georgina Spence. Both Joseph and Georgina were listed as informants. I'll send you the image I viewed off list. Jacquie Winnipeg, MB Canada -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Brown Sent: November 23, 2008 9:32 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with Joseph Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. Thanks Ron ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ella, I wish Ella! I have not been able to find a marriage for Gillespie & Burgess. On her death Registration from ScotlandsPeople it lists her given name as Georgina Ballantyne Gillespie, underneath in brackets it says "otherwise Burgess" widow of John Francis Burgess. I'm not sure if I'm being too pedantic but id hate to be going down the wrong path. Thanks Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ella Ross Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 1:14 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ron I wouldn't be too bothered about the age on the 1901 census being out by 3 years. It could be a transcription error or deliberate on the part of the person involved. If it was someone else who filled in the census they may have been mistaken about her exact age. Anything on a death certificate has been given by the informant. They may ar may not have deliberately omitted some details. Have you found a marriage certificate for her with Burgess and with Gillespie? Cheers Ella Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Brown" <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother > thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the > 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on > the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years > > If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with > Joseph > Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death > registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. > > Thanks > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie > Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 11:24 AM > To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina Gillespie, > other surnames Burges and > Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the > site. > > Jacquie > Winnipeg, MB > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Ron Brown > Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM > To: Edinburgh email list > Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > Hello, > > I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have > lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have > located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or > otherwise. > > Thanks > > Ron > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ron, no all forms of marriage are equal in Scots law (some are just harder prove) , the marriage by declaration required witness and was classified as a regular marriage. marriage by repute. although classed as irregular, required co-habitation and the parties to call themselves husband and wife, or allow others to call them so. (Note the Church of Scotland would class both forms of marriage as irregular, as they would a marriage by Sheriif's Warrent or by an Anglican Priest). To enter into another marriage with out the death of one's spouce or obtaing a Divorse though the Court of Session (which was very exspensive), would be bigamous. One point about illegitimancy, here again the law is different than in England. A child born illegitmate is automaticly legitimised if the parents subsequently marry provided the two could have legally married at the time of the child's birth. (i.e. neither of them whee otherwise married at the time).    dealt with . cheers John  Proud to be a transcriber for the freeCEN Project and volunteer for Random Acts of Geneological Kindness Ask me how you can contribute to either of these worthy projects or for other ways of helping our hobby. Researching BATTERS in Yorkshire BENNIE in Lanarkshire, Dunbartonshire & West Lothian BENNING in Lanarkshire & Montreal COLLINS in California & PA COOPER in Yorkshire DODS in East Lothian, Berwickshire, British Columbia, Montreal, Manchester, South Africa, Hong Kong, India DOUGLAS in Lanarkshire FENTON in Edinbugh FISHER in Yorkshire FORREST in South Africa HAYTON in Yorkshire HEWAT in East Lothian LAMONT in Lanarkshire LEGGAT in Monreal MCLEAN in Argyllshire RANKINE in Dunbartonshire, Perthshire SEYMOUR in British Columbia & Montreal SHIRREFF in East Lothian SNELL in California, Oregeon SUFFILL/SUFFIELD in Yorkshire TROTTER, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, West Lothian WATSON in Brantford & Barrie, Ontario. WEIR in Argyllshire,Lanarkshie WILLIAMSON in Edinburgh & North Berwick ----- Original Message ---- From: Ron Brown <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 24 November, 2008 7:01:48 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi John. If my great grandmother was still married at the time could she simply walk away from that marriage and enter one of the other forms of marriage in Scotland at the time? Was divorce common then? Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J D Dods Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 2:08 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ron, a suggestion. Rather than trying to prove the Georgina Gillespie you found in 1901 was yours, have you tried to disprove it? Also remember "marriage by repute"  and "marriage by declearation" were legal forms of marriage in Scotland at this time and neither required to be registered. cheers John  Proud to be a transcriber for the freeCEN Project and volunteer for Random Acts of Geneological Kindness Ask me how you can contribute to either of these worthy projects or for other ways of helping our hobby. Researching BATTERS in Yorkshire BENNIE in Lanarkshire, Dunbartonshire & West Lothian BENNING in Lanarkshire & Montreal COLLINS in California & PA COOPER in Yorkshire DODS in East Lothian, Berwickshire, British Columbia, Montreal, Manchester, South Africa, Hong Kong, India DOUGLAS in Lanarkshire FENTON in Edinbugh FISHER in Yorkshire FORREST in South Africa HAYTON in Yorkshire HEWAT in East Lothian LAMONT in Lanarkshire LEGGAT in Monreal MCLEAN in Argyllshire RANKINE in Dunbartonshire, Perthshire SEYMOUR in British Columbia & Montreal SHIRREFF in East Lothian SNELL in California, Oregeon SUFFILL/SUFFIELD in Yorkshire TROTTER, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, West Lothian WATSON in Brantford & Barrie, Ontario. WEIR in Argyllshire,Lanarkshie WILLIAMSON in Edinburgh & North Berwick ----- Original Message ---- From: Ron Brown <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 24 November, 2008 5:34:48 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ella, I wish Ella! I have not been able to find a marriage for Gillespie & Burgess. On her death Registration from ScotlandsPeople it lists her given name as Georgina Ballantyne Gillespie, underneath in brackets it says "otherwise Burgess"  widow of John Francis Burgess. I'm not sure if I'm being too pedantic but id hate to be going down the wrong path. Thanks Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ella Ross Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 1:14 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ron I wouldn't be too bothered about the age on the 1901 census being out by 3 years. It could be a transcription error or deliberate on the part of the person involved.  If it was someone else who filled in the census they may have been mistaken about her exact age. Anything on a death certificate has been given by the informant.  They may ar may not have deliberately omitted some details. Have you found a marriage certificate for her with Burgess and with Gillespie? Cheers Ella Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Brown" <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother > thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the > 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on > the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years > > If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with > Joseph > Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death > registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. > > Thanks > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie > Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 11:24 AM > To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina Gillespie, > other surnames Burges and > Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the > site. > > Jacquie > Winnipeg, MB > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Ron Brown > Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM > To: Edinburgh email list > Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > Hello, > > I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have > lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have > located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or > otherwise. > > Thanks > > Ron > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message       Easy recipes for Christmas entertaining on Yahoo!Xtra Lifestyle- http://nz.lifestyle.yahoo.com/food-recipes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Get the world&#39;s best email - http://nz.mail.yahoo.com/

Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with Joseph Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. Thanks Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 11:24 AM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina Gillespie, other surnames Burges and Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the site. Jacquie Winnipeg, MB Canada -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Brown Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM To: Edinburgh email list Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hello, I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or otherwise. Thanks Ron ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ella and Ron I think the reason that so many couples were forced to live together 'in sin' in Scotland was that a man or woman would leave a marriage, and the 'wronged' party could refuse to divorce them. I don't believe there was a time limit on this refusal. This was the situation in the 1950s and could be very cruel. It no longer applies, of course. I tried to find the facts on this by googling scottish divorce law, but failed. However I did come across one interesting point. Apparently in late 19th century England, a man could divorce his wife on grounds of her adultery only. A wife, on the other hand. had to prove other grounds, such as unreasonable behaviour; adultery on its own was not sufficient. Scottish law treated both parties equally. Enough said! Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ella Ross" <ebbtide@ihug.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 6:07 AM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > Don't know Ron I wasn't around then ! > > When I worked in the Ministry of Pensions in 1958 in Glasgow I was > astounded > by the number of my neighbours who were unmarried but living together. I > had signed the secrecy act so kept my mouth shut. > > They were all sort of ordinary if not downright ugly and unwholesome.. I > thought 'living in sin" was for the young, wild and gorgeous". > > There we are. > Ella >

Hello, I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or otherwise. Is there anyone else looking for the Gillespie name in North Leith around this time? Thanks Ron

I've forwarded some possible census information to you regarding Joseph Gillespie off list. If you don't have it, here is a possible 1901 census entry from Ancestry for John Burgess and his son John. I saw that the son John was the informant listed on Georgina's death registration so they must have had a relationship despite the marriage situation. 1901 census - 13 Prince Regent St, Leith John Burgers, boarder, age: 33, tailor, born: Leith John Burgers, boarder, age: 6, born: Leith *listed as Burgers in ScotlandsPeople index as well. 1891 census - 5 Citadel, Leith North John Burgess, head, age: 22, tailor, born: Leith Georgina Burgess, wife, age: 21, born: Leith *Georgina's forename was listed as George S. at Ancestry. Jacquie Winnipeg, MB Canada -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Brown Sent: November 23, 2008 11:50 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname That's right Jacquie. I have the 1901 census for Joseph Gillespie and his family in Canonogate. Is that the same information that you have? Thanks

I just want to clarify something - you are researching Joseph Gillespie and Georgina Spence, correct? If so, I may have found some census information regarding Joseph Gillespie. Jacquie -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Brown Sent: November 23, 2008 11:31 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ella, You are correct. That marriage is my great grandparents marriage for 14 Oct 1890 in North Leith. Thanks again Ron

The Georgina with Joseph Gillespie is definitely your Georgina. I checked the birth registration for Joseph Gillespie, age 5 months that is listed with them and found an entry in Canongate for Joseph Lillie Gillespie, illegitimate, born 11 Oct 1900 to Joseph Gillespie, mason and Georgina Spence. Both Joseph and Georgina were listed as informants. I'll send you the image I viewed off list. Jacquie Winnipeg, MB Canada -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Brown Sent: November 23, 2008 9:32 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with Joseph Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. Thanks Ron

Hi Ron, a suggestion. Rather than trying to prove the Georgina Gillespie you found in 1901 was yours, have you tried to disprove it? Also remember "marriage by repute"  and "marriage by declearation" were legal forms of marriage in Scotland at this time and neither required to be registered. cheers John  Proud to be a transcriber for the freeCEN Project and volunteer for Random Acts of Geneological Kindness Ask me how you can contribute to either of these worthy projects or for other ways of helping our hobby. Researching BATTERS in Yorkshire BENNIE in Lanarkshire, Dunbartonshire & West Lothian BENNING in Lanarkshire & Montreal COLLINS in California & PA COOPER in Yorkshire DODS in East Lothian, Berwickshire, British Columbia, Montreal, Manchester, South Africa, Hong Kong, India DOUGLAS in Lanarkshire FENTON in Edinbugh FISHER in Yorkshire FORREST in South Africa HAYTON in Yorkshire HEWAT in East Lothian LAMONT in Lanarkshire LEGGAT in Monreal MCLEAN in Argyllshire RANKINE in Dunbartonshire, Perthshire SEYMOUR in British Columbia & Montreal SHIRREFF in East Lothian SNELL in California, Oregeon SUFFILL/SUFFIELD in Yorkshire TROTTER, Lanarkshire, Stirlingshire, West Lothian WATSON in Brantford & Barrie, Ontario. WEIR in Argyllshire,Lanarkshie WILLIAMSON in Edinburgh & North Berwick ----- Original Message ---- From: Ron Brown <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 24 November, 2008 5:34:48 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ella, I wish Ella! I have not been able to find a marriage for Gillespie & Burgess. On her death Registration from ScotlandsPeople it lists her given name as Georgina Ballantyne Gillespie, underneath in brackets it says "otherwise Burgess"  widow of John Francis Burgess. I'm not sure if I'm being too pedantic but id hate to be going down the wrong path. Thanks Ron -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ella Ross Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 1:14 PM To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hi Ron I wouldn't be too bothered about the age on the 1901 census being out by 3 years. It could be a transcription error or deliberate on the part of the person involved.  If it was someone else who filled in the census they may have been mistaken about her exact age. Anything on a death certificate has been given by the informant.  They may ar may not have deliberately omitted some details. Have you found a marriage certificate for her with Burgess and with Gillespie? Cheers Ella Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Brown" <suenron@southwest.com.au> To: <sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 2:31 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > Hi Jacquie, I do have that death registration for my great grandmother > thanks. The problem I have is trying to prove that it is she who is on the > 1901 census living with a Joseph Gillespie in North Leith. All the info on > the census looks good except Georgina's age is out by 3 years > > If she had left her first husband John Francis Burgess and lived with > Joseph > Gillespie around 1900 would it have been normal to list on her death > registration in 1951 as 'widow of John Francis Burgess'. > > Thanks > Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jacquie > Sent: Monday, 24 November 2008 11:24 AM > To: sct-edinburgh@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina Gillespie, > other surnames Burges and > Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the > site. > > Jacquie > Winnipeg, MB > Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Ron Brown > Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM > To: Edinburgh email list > Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname > > Hello, > > I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have > lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have > located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or > otherwise. > > Thanks > > Ron > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Easy recipes for Christmas entertaining on Yahoo!Xtra Lifestyle- http://nz.lifestyle.yahoo.com/food-recipes

At ScotlandsPeople there is a death registration for a Georgina Gillespie, other surnames Burges and Spence dated 1951 in Leith. She was 81. You can view the image at the site. Jacquie Winnipeg, MB Canada -----Original Message----- From: sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-edinburgh-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ron Brown Sent: November 23, 2008 7:51 PM To: Edinburgh email list Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] Gillespie surname Hello, I believe my great grandmother Georgina Ballantyne Spence/Burgess may have lived with a man named Joseph Gillespie in North Leith around 1900. I have located a similar family on the 1901 census but need to prove correct or otherwise. Thanks Ron

Hi Jacquie, again, I also have an "Aunt Minnie" fo a Marion, so the answer to your question would be, Yes. John

Hi Jacquie, In my experience, Minnie was a diminutive for Williamina (Wilhemina). John

Good evening Jacquie 19th C Scot's female "given names" are always a problem because of local usage/dialect . What's used in Sutherland is not necessarily the same for East Lothian I sought advice from NRH many years ago when first came across this problem with my own Newhaven family. They advised below for a local usage rule of thumb Minnie used with/for Mary, Mamie, May, Marion: Did not have a "christened" Minnie in my family but many were " known as " Don't forget too that right up into my lifetime in Newhaven the name "Mearn" was used for Marion. As a young lad I had two Auntie Mearn who were christened Marion . Honestly do not think you will ever get , even from so called professional genealogists, a definitive answer due to , as I said above, local usage.. My advice from experience to "go for it " but do try and check from other documents Good luck ! Regards John John D. Stevenson Trinity Research Services, Edinburgh Scottish Maritime History Research Est 1989 johndee.ships@btinternet.com > I'm hoping that the experience of those on this list will help me with a > name problem. My 3rd > great-grandfather, James Bell was married to Marion Campbell. I have found > an entry in the OPR > regarding James Bell, Royal Artillery Driver and Minnie Campbell giving up > their names for marriage > on 21 May 1812. I've been in contact with two professional researchers and > one says that in his > experience Minnie was not a nickname for Marion while the other indicates > that Minnie was a common > pet name for Marion. The first researcher indicated Minnie was most common > as a nickname for > forenames ending with "ina" and he felt strongly that the couple in the > aforementioned 1812 > marriage were not the parents of my 2nd great-grandmother, Elizabeth while > the second researcher > seems to have found information in James Bell's military service which > matches some of the > information I have on my James (I haven't seen it yet but that was the > implication in an email I > received from the researcher). So my question is, could Minnie and Marion > be the same person. What > do you think? > > > > Jacquie > > Winnipeg, MB > > Canada > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-EDINBURGH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A quick scan of BMDS in the TImes shows Minnie being either a name in its own right or a diminutive for Mary. I have a feeling Marion and Mary are related as well. What is really strange, and I never knew, is that Minnie is an old Scots word for Mummy - in old poems its 'minnie and daddie'. Judy On 19 Nov 2008, at 23:09, Jean & John Johnston wrote: > Hi Jacquie, > In my experience, Minnie was a diminutive for Williamina (Wilhemina). > John > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-EDINBURGH- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacquie" Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:05 PM Subject: [SCT-EDINBURGH] What's in a name - Marion > The first researcher indicated Minnie was most common as a nickname for > forenames ending with "ina" You might want to check out the following: http://www.whatsinaname.net/ In my family, be they from the Shetland Islands, the NE of Scotland or Glasgow, any of our names ending in 'ina', seem to have become 'Ina'. Thomasina, Christina, Christian, Gillian, Georgina, Williamina, Robertina, Andrina & Alexandrina, to name a few with this ending. Some of these names have been carried into the last and present generations, then shortened to 'Ina'. To be honest, with several of them, I'd prefer the original if it were my name! We've a few ancestors whose names end in 'ine', but I'm not sure about them. I do have a cousin in Glasgow who named her daughter Katherine, but the wee tyke is called 'Ina' by the elders of the families. Toni