Hello Colin and listers I have just spoken to someone at the Signet Libary and they have kindly agreed that I can put this info on the mailing list as long as I make one thing clear: Scottish lawyers in the 19thC often put their occupation as 'writer', but that does not mean that they were necessarily Writers to the Signet which was in fact quite a small grouping. Listers PLEASE respect this and don't get me into trouble by sending all your lawyer queries to the library. Please only do this if there is strong evidence (as in this case) that the person in question was actually a member ie a lawyer who put W.S. after his name. And please, no surname trawls, this is not a public library but a resource for their own members. So, Colin, you are welcome to drop a line to: The Signet Library Parliament Square Edinburgh EH1 1RF or send an email to: signet.lib@dial.pipex.com Altho they are not technically open to the public they are willing to check their records and send you a photocopy of your ancestor's entry (if there is one) good luck with this Judy Copywriter@tesco.net searching BRIGHT, CRUMP, WHITEHEAD, WATKISS, SHORE, HOPE EDWARDS, WRIGHT (all Salop) INSKIP (Salop/Staffs), MARTIN (Staffs), MITCHELL (SCT and CHS/Lancs), SMITH, AITCHISON, THORBURN (all DFS), McRAE (Lewis/L'pool), HOWARTH (Lancs), OLSEN (N'way,L'pool), WESTON (Salop/L'pool), EDWARDS(Flint), and VIGGOR (CHS/L'pool/Salop) ---------- >From: "Colin Darby" <colnet@optusnet.com.au> snip.... David and > Catharina had a son David Ogilvy born 1804 who did his apprenticeship at > The Signet Law Firm Edinburgh starting on 26th July 1832, graduated to > Solicitor and in 1839 was appointed by the British Government as Crown > Solicitor in Australia..All we have on Catharina's father John SPENCE of ....snip

Is there somebody out there who could possibly do a search of Roland in Edinburgh on the 1871 or 1891 census.There won't be many due to the spelling of this name,and they'll probably all belong to me. A Million thanks in advance,you would help me a lot. Eleanor

SKS alert...if you have a moment, some spare time and access to census databases...I am willing to trade my first born...a big oaf of 27 years, who still lives at home...able to pull a plough and eats like a horse! Newton St. Boswell, Portobello, Edinburgh and surrounding regions. I am in desperate need of any info on these La[u]chlans and their background aside from the following: Lauchlan3 m. Georgina Mills [or George Jane Mills...we are not sure] abt. 1886 [Have all their children and their birth dates only]. Lachlan2 m. Cecilia Lindsay Mar. 13, 1863 [she remarried James Kemp Oct. 01, 1875][Have all their respective children's birth dates only][They had one child names Janet Ann Baird Dempster. This is the only Baird reference in the whole family. It would be helpful if any Bairds out there could help]. Lachlan1 m. Mary Cummings Feb. 20, 1835 [have found only the one child noted]. ================================================================================ Note from an SKS of some time ago...: Here is what I found from the 1891 census - 684/1; 005; 33; Portobello Lauchlin3 J. Dempster, 27 [1862] Georgina Dempster, 23 [1868] Cecilia, 5 [1886] Lauchlan4 J., 4 [1887] James K., 1 [1890] (now we know he was younger born 1890) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My notes... (Janet was born, September 10, 1891 and Lizzie was the younger sister as per the picture, Jimmie sent) There is still some discrepancy as to whether or not this is "our" LJD Sr. as other records show a marriage to a Georgina [George_Jane] and they apparently lived at Rose St. in Edinburgh. We also have a ? Mills with a date attached of December 05, 1884. It is not known of what significance this date has. It is said that Lauchlin John Dempster Sr. lived in Newton St. Boswell. This very small community is located in the area of southern Scotland known as The Borders. It is near the community of Melrose in Roxburghshire. He was still alive in 1871. This collection of row houses and single cottages housed many railway workers. In the row called Sprouston Cottages, lived the Dempsters. John Sr. is said to have been a hairdresser in one reference and a barber in another. Another name for these cottages was locally referred to as "Cordry Row." As all the rail workers wore "cordery trousers." These row houses were specially built for the workers. John Sr. married Cecilia Lindsay-Dempster and had five children before he died. She remarried a James Kemp and had two more children by him. Lauchlin John Sr. and Cecilia parented Lauchlin John, James, William, Thomas and Janet Ann. James Kemp........and Cecilia parented George and Cecilia. Yours, very hopefully, Alan Kemp Dempster -- ======================================================================= MY BOND TO YOU = WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH All mail ingoing and outgoing is scanned by Trend MicroSystem's PC-cillin More than 80% of all viruses enter through your email servers. CHRIST IS MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR. ======================================================================= "Copyright © Canada 2000, Alan Dempster. All rights reserved, none implied, none given." Single user right given to my legal advisor. I am an honest, sincere and focused person. Focused on what is right and proper, not what is sham and innuendo! My word is my bond. 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Here is an excellent site for anyone looking for Scottish locations. I'm told there are plans to add images online but at the moment it is mostly information about the holdings of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland. These can include books, drawings and photographs. These are the people who record old buildings etc, and some of their records are for buildings that have since been swept away. http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/canmore.html You have to register and choose a password, but dont be put off, it is well worth doing. As for Ann's specific query, there is still a Brown St up at the Pleasance, in the shadow of Salisbury Crags, and it also shows up on the Alan Godfrey map (1894) but from the info on the CANMORE site its not clear whether this is the exact site of the street in the 1820s. Judy Copywriter@tesco.net

Just a note to researchers on Scots Origins (SO). I sent a msg recently concerning what I'd found in my downloads from SO. Out of 3,000 names I've downloaded, generally, I noted only about 10 % were spelled correctly. Most were phonetically spelled, some spellings were much different than I expected. Some examples are: SURNAME......As Spelled in Scots Origin (OPR) records AIKEN........AIKINE ANDERSON.....ANDERSOUNE BLACK........BLAK BOSWELL......BOSUELL BROWN........BROUNE BRYSON.......BRYSSON BUCHAN.......BUCKUM CRAWFORD.....CRAWFURD DIXON........DICKSOUNE DOUGLAS......DOWGLASE, DUGLASSE FERGUSON.....FERGUESONE FRIZELL......FRYSELL GARNER.......GAIRNER GIBSON.......GIBBISONE GORDON.......GORDOUN GREEN........GREIN GREENLAW.....GREINLAW HALIBURTON...HALYBRUITOUN HENDERSON....HENRYSONE JOHNSTON.....JONSTONE LYNCH........LEITCH MILLER.......MILLAR NICHOLSON....NICCOLSONE PATTON.......PATOUN, PATAN, PATONE RALSTON......RALSTOUN REED.........REID, RID ROBERTSON....ROBERTSOUNE SADLER.......SAIDLER SHAW.........SCHAW SHELL........SCHEILL SIMPSON......SIMSOUN, SYMPSONE, SYMSON STEVENSON....STIVENSONE, STEVINSONE MCGREGOR.....MCKGRIGOR, MCKGRIGGER TAYLOR.......TAILYOUR THOMPSON.....TOMPSONE TURNER.......TURNOR WATSON.......WATSOUNE Forename.....Scots Origin AGNES........AGNASE ALLISON......ALISONE, AILISONE ANDREW.......ANDRO, ANDROW ARCHIBALD....AIRCHBALD BARBARA......BARBRIE CHRISTIAN....CHRISTEANE DAVID........DAUID HARRY........HAERIE, HERIE HENRY........HENDRIE JANET........JENAT, JONATT, JANNAT JOHN.........JHONE, JOHNNE, JON KATHRINE.....KATREIN MARGARET.....MARGRIT MARION.......MARIONNE, MARYON MICHAEL......MYCHAELL OLIVER.......OLIVEIR, OLIPHER REBECCA......REBECKA RICHARD......RITCHART, RECHART THOMAS.......TOMAS VIOLET.......VYLOT WILLIAM......WILLIANE, WILYIAM When I actually looked at the records, I am finding MANY data input errors for the OPR. The errors are usually the parents or spouse's name (either forenames or surnames) not entered in the proper column in the database for the respective name. As a result searches may be frustrating. As Shown In OPR Record: (N1-N3 = SURNAME, F1-F3 = FORENAME, M = MISCELLANEOUS DATA) An example, as shown in the OPR (christening) N1......F1......N2.......F2...N3.....F3......M CADELL..MARION..FRANCIS..HEW..JANET..CADELL..HEW FRANCIS CADELL/JANET MARIAN BUCHAN SYDSERF It Should Read: N1......F1......N2......F2...........N3.......F3 CADELL..MARION..CADELL..HEW FRANCIS..SYDSERF..JANET MARIAN BUCHAN ============================================================================================ Another example, as shown in OPR (marriage): N1......F1....N2......F2......N3.....F3..M CUTHIL..MARY..DUNCAN..HENRY..............HENRY DUNCAN MCGOWAN It should read: N1......F1....N2.......F2............N3..F3..M CUTHIL..MARY..MCGOWAN..HENRY DUNCAN.......... ============================================================================================ Another example, as shown in OPR (marriage): N1......F1.........N2...F2.....N3..F3...M CADELL..CATHERINE..HAY..LEWIS...........LEWIS HAY IRVING It should read: N1......F1.........N2......F2.........N3..F3..M CADELL..CATHERINE..IRVING..LEWIS HAY.......... ============================================================================================ Another example, as shown in OPR (christening): N1......F1........N2.............F2....N3..F3..M CADDEL..LAURENCE..CADDEL ELIZTH..JOHN..........JOHN CADDEL/ELIZTH. JOHNSON It should read: N1......F1........N2.............F2....N3.......F3......M CADDEL..LAURENCE..CADDEL.........JOHN..JOHNSON..ELIZTH.. ============================================================================================ Is this clear as mud. Good luck. Bill Caddell List Manager for BATTLES, BIRCHFIELD, BURCHFIELD, BURWELL, CADDELL, CADLE, CADWELL, CALDER, CALDERWOOD, CAUDLE, CORDELL, KEADLE, and SCT-INVERNESS

Many thanks to all those who did look-ups for me for the above, your kindness is much appreciated! I was inundated with offers, so I have all the info I need now. Thanks again! -- Best Wishes Angela<boon.bluecats@ntlworld.com> Pettistree Homepage http://www.pettistree.suffolk.gov.uk/

Hi Angela, There are over 5,000 Browns on the 1881 census in the Edinburgh Midlothioan area. Could you be a little more specific. Joan British Columbia Canada

I would be most grateful if someone could send me all the BROWNS listed on the 1881 census for Prestonpans please. Many thanks. -- Best Wishes Angela<boon.bluecats@ntlworld.com> Pettistree Homepage http://www.pettistree.suffolk.gov.uk/

Researching OGILVY **** We have David OGILVY (Painter) of Edinburgh who married Catharina Spence on 2nd July 1801 at Tolbooth Church Parish Edinburgh---David lived at "Burnet's Close, House 312 Lawnmarket Edinburgh" (as according to the Post Office Annual Directory 1820-1821). David and Catharina had a son David Ogilvy born 1804 who did his apprenticeship at The Signet Law Firm Edinburgh starting on 26th July 1832, graduated to Solicitor and in 1839 was appointed by the British Government as Crown Solicitor in Australia..All we have on Catharina's father John SPENCE of Edinburgh that he was a painter too!.**** We have a copy of David/Catharina's marriage certificate and postal registers from which we obtained the information as shown above. *************With the help of a Kind Lister who found for us four OGILVY'S which do appear to be ours; they are William Spence OGILVY b 28/12/1806, Catharine OGILVY b 16/12/1808, Thomas Davidson OGILVY b 1/10/1813, and Catharine Ogil! vy b 7/3/1811. showing their Father David OGILVY and mother Catharine Mrs SPENCE.******** Would like someone who has access to the Census for this period to confirm this information! and we now at a standstill at the brick wall trying to locate or find the further details of David/Chatarina's parents! Any suggestions!!!!!! Regards, Colin Darby, Armidale NSW Australia. colnet@optusnet.com.au --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.240 / Virus Database: 116 - Release Date: 23/03/2001

Would anyone have any information about a Herbert AITKEN from Edinburgh who sang with the D'Oyley Carte Opera Company in the early 1900's? Many thanks, Cyndy (Co Down, N Ireland) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Hello, Am new to this list and trying to find some trace of my 8X Grandfather., Andrew RENNEY. He appeared at Gateshead, County Durham, England in 1716 when he married Elizabeth HILLS and later the christening of their son and daughter. However, there is no record of him to be found in the area before the marriage.No birth, family or who his parents may have been. We feel he probably came south from Scotland as both Andrew and RENNEY are Scottish names.Right now we are at a complete standstill until we can find some info. on Andrew.Any info. or ideas gratefully received. Thankyou. Also, I have ONE front row center ticket to the Edinburgh Tattoo for Tuesday, August 14/ 2001., best seat in the house, and am unable to go. If some-one would like it please E mail me direct at Pmc248@cs.com , prefer to give it to a senior or some-one who would not otherwise be able to afford to go. Regards, Pam Renney McKinley at Mesa, Arizona, USA. via Aldershot, Hants, England. [ Always looking for RENNEY.]

This article was forwarded to me a few months back ,by the writer Stuart Mitchell ,Scotland . With his permission Im able to pass it on. J.McComb-S.California HIDDEN FAMILIES - ALIASES AND PATRONYMICS IN UPPER BANFFSHIRE Genealogical research in pre-1855 Upper Banffshire can be more frustrating than in most other parts of the North East because of the large RC population. The Invera’an and Kirkmichael OPRs - and hence IGI - are virtually silent about them, so are of little help in tracing Catholic ancestors. Although the RC Baptism Registers for Tomintoul and Glenlivet (Tombae and Chapeltown) contain much of the information that is missing from the OPRs, they are accessible on microfilm only in Elgin Library and the Scottish Record Office. Unfortunately, the respective Registers go back only to 1807 and 1812/1829, then once again the familiar blank wall - or so it seemed until recently. Now, not only do two newly-available sources give additional information about early 19th century RC families, but an unexpected ability to look over that blank wall has been provided by apparently unconnected research. This is an investigation of aliases in highland Banffshire, which although still incomplete has led to the identification of ‘hidden families’ in the 17th and early 18th century OPRs. Aliases An ‘alias’ phenomenon flourished in the Upper Banffshire records for nearly a 100 years after its first appearance in 1740. These aliases were very different from those used by the McGregors of Stratha’an and Upper Deeside (forced by the proscription of their clan to shelter under a Gordon, Grant, or other ‘safe’ name) but no memory of them has survived to the present day. They seem to have had a Catholic dimension, for aliases were meticulously recorded in the Glenlivet RC Registers until 1838, long after they had disappeared elsewhere. Indeed, this was effectively so by 1812 when the Tombae Register starts. Until the RC Registers showed just how many early 19th century ‘alias’ families there were in the Braes of Glenlivet, the aliases in the Invera’an OPR had appeared to be random and of little interest. After that first record on 1st April 1740 (the baptism of James, son of John Miller alias Grant) OPR alias entries became increasingly frequent until the mid-1770s. They then fell away sharply and the last two were recorded in 1794 and 1806. That sudden decline coincided with the disappearance from OPR of baptism records for RC Braes families that signalled the first lifting of Catholic repression in Invera’an. This increases the likelihood of an RC connection for most aliases, as does the very much lower incidence round Protestant Ballindalloch than in the Catholic Braes. RC Baptism Registers Although aliases were particularly prevalent amongst Grants, Stuarts, McPhersons and McDonalds, many of these names were unembellished - one third of Stuart families in the Glenlivet RC Registers 1812-1838 were ‘non-alias’. It quickly became clear that as an alias carried from one generation to the next, defining a specific descent line within the broad family name, it was actually a genealogical patronymic. The children of ‘alias’ families, took the patronymic of their father, never of their mother - a maternal alias was not carried on, even when the father did not have one. While entries in the records usually took the form ‘Family alias Patronymic’ (often entered simply as ‘Family/Patronymic’ without the word ‘alias’), this was occasionally reversed for families such as Turner alias Grant. The majority of the aliases in the Glenlivet RC Records also occur in OPR, though usually as the stand-alone patronymic. Stuart alias More/Moir*; McAllay/M’Lea*; Bain*; Dow*; Gibbnach Grant alias Roy*; McRobie*; Bowie*; Turner*; McArthur; Bain McPherson alias McUlly/McWillie*; Garrow*; McInnes; Gall McIntosh alias Riach* (only two individuals, but common in Kirkmichael) McDonald alias McAllister* Gordon alias McRitchie (single family) Smith alias Gow* (all families) * These also occur in OPR, usually as the stand-alone patronymic. Aliases in the Glenlivet RC Records, 1812-1838 Because of its gaelic origins and environment, the Upper Banffshire patronymic Moir was pronounced ‘more’ not ‘moy-er’, so is not directly related to the well-known lowland Aberdeenshire surname. Aliases in OPR As most of the other aliases in OPR occur only two or three times each, they must represent individual small families - for some of whom it may have been a single-generation by-name not a true patronymic. Only the Mitchell, Cameron and perhaps McKenzie aliases were sufficiently prolific to represent larger groupings - the multiple baptism entries for the Mitchell alias McAndy families in the Ballindalloch area, indicating that they were Protestant (see next page): Stuart alias McGurman, McOmash, Darg (Kirkmichael & Mortlach only) Grant alias Cly, Miller, Tailzeor, McShewan, McAdam, McComish McPherson alias Moir, McOmie (Aberlour), Doulle (Kirkmichael, Mortlach only) Mitchell alias McAndy° (also Invernochty) Cameron alias McPhail°, Bain McPhail alias Gauld McKenzie alias Kynach° Shaw alias Roy McIntosh alias Smith Innes alias Jay Fleming alias Arrach Bayne alias Cuming Grigorach alias McGregor Duff alias McKay McDonald alias Couper ° These occur as both alias and stand-alone patronymic. Aliases Occurring Only in OPR, 1740-1794 Families Revealed While the alias phenomenon helps to rationalise the very many Grant and Stuart families in Glenlivet by splitting them into more manageable patronymic groups, this is a relatively minor benefit. Its real value is in identifying many pre-1740 OPR entries as Grants, Stuarts, McPhersons etc., who had previously been ‘hidden’ behind patronymics. With a few exceptions, most patronymics disappeared in a general resumption of the basic family names at the end of the alias period. Some Grants, McIntoshes and McPhersons chose to retain their patronymic in preference to the family name, but More/Moir and M’Lea vanished except for sporadic records in adjoining parishes like Mortlach and Aberlour. Although superficially there appear to be few aliases in Kirkmichael OPR and the Tomintoul RC Baptism Register (both have still to be surveyed in detail), evidence that they were still quite common in early 19th century Kirkmichael comes from the Appendix to the Gow Manuscript. This shows aliases for a third of the 60 families (300 individuals) resident in the Braes of Stratha’an in the 1820s: Stewart alias More, Bain, Gault Grant alias “Germany” McPherson alias Doole, Bain, More McGregor alias Willox, More, Bain (plus two families of non-alias Riach) Aliases in the Braes of Stratha’an, 1820s (Gow MS) continue-part 2

I am in need of some SKS with access to the 1861 census for Edinburgh, to lookup premises 34 Carnegie Street. I am seeking Thomas Henderson, about 26 yrs of age, a joiner Journeyman. Born Scotland. Should be with his wife Isabella, and sons George, Robert James and John T. Henderson. Essential I glean his parish of birth, and this is the only method available to me at this time. TIA, Alan

Hi Listers, I, too am researching BROWNS in Edinburgh. John BROWN m Margaret MUNRO ? their daughter Margaret BROWN b.1851 Edinburgh m william McINTOSH 1872 in the district of Canongate Edinburgh. Any connections? Agnes

Hi All Sorry! I gave a recommendation to the above without a proper address. Doh!!! It is at http://edina.ac.uk/admin/registration.html Just go in, no need for passwords etc, no cost, choose 'Statistical Accounts of Scotland', the year, and the Parish and you get the actual pges from the book. It also allows more sophisticated forms of search. Good browsing Jim Cairns

Hello Elizabeth, John, Tom and Jimmy, What a wonderful response, and I can't thank you all enough for the lovely memories this has brought back, I'm just sorry I never experienced the 'Eldorado'. These big bands were priceless. How did they do it? Another 'Edinburgh exile' and I go walking on a Monday morning - can you guess the topic? We're going to have a whale of a time! Lots of thanks! Cheers Agnes

Hi Bill, I think the site will be http://www.scotlandsclans.com/whatsnew.htm Robina, Bris. Aus ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill McKenzie <Bill@Petrobras.com> To: <SCT-EDINBURGH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 9:27 PM Subject: RE: [EDB] Statistical Account of Scotland > What is the URL for the site > > Bill McKenzie > > Subject: [EDB] Statistical Account of Scotland > > > Hi Listers > > Many of you will know of this site, but it's so useful and interesting, > I thought that it would be worth sharing! It's the Statistical Account > of Scotland site at Edina. Don't be put off by the 'Statistical' title. > The Accounts (1791-99 and 1845) are descriptions of Parishes all over > Scotland. Written usually by the Parish Minister, they give a sometimes > vivid account of life at the time. > > > ==== SCT-EDINBURGH Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from list mode, send a new email to sct-edinburgh-l-request@rootsweb.com and put the word unsubscribe in the message box. Do not add any other words, text, or email addresses to the message. You will receive an email confirmation notice telling you that you are no longer on the mail list. > >

When I was a child I was told an ancestor of my mine was in charge of a city prison in Scotland (Edinburgh or Glasgow, sadly I cannot remember which), in the mid 19th century. Does anyone know how I could find details of the people who staffed the prison service in either or both of these two cities? My great grandfather's surname was HARVEY, and family tradition says he was presented to Queen Victoria. Reg in New Zealand reginaldn@clear.net.nz Researching: * Harvey * Nicholson * Smith * Cassidy * Dalton

Hi Agnes, don't recall Joe Loss ever Playing at the "Pally" circa 1949/52. I think he was too 'BIG' a name for the Palais. Do recall Carl Barriteau playing at the dance hall in Leith - the name of the hall escapes me for the minute.. Good times eh! Elizabeth

John D. Stevenson A.M.I.Mar.E. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Fraser" <jandef@tpg.com.au> To: <SCT-EDINBURGH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 11:35 Subject: [EDB] RE BIG BANDS AT PALAIS > Hi Agnes, don't recall Joe Loss ever Playing at the "Pally" circa 1949/52. > I think he was too 'BIG' a name for the Palais. Do recall Carl Barriteau > playing at the dance hall in Leith - the name of the hall escapes me for > the minute.. Good times eh! Elizabeth > Hi Elizabeth et al, Carl B, played regularly at the "ELDO" or to give it its proper name the "ELDORADO BALLROOM". Situated in Great Junction Street at the side of the Water of Leith behind what was then the "STATE PICTURE HOUSE" ( later a bingo hall and now standing empty.) The Eldorado was the old engine shop for Hawthorns Shipbuilders, and if you happened to raise your eyes during a "chat Up" you would see the old travelling cranes were still in place !! It was also used for professional wrestling, in its heyday, in the sixties and seventies. Damaged in a fire and demolished in 1988 , it has private housing built on its site. Re the Palais , bands that played there around that time, from press cuttings, were ,Nat Gonella, Victor Sylvester , Geraldo, Ivy Bensons All Girl Band , Ted Heath , Jimmy Sampson, Ken Collyers Jazz Men, Kenny Ball,Chris Barber , Alex Welsh ,Monty Sunshine and, purely from memory, Humphrey Lyttelton. Good times, Elizabeth ? You better believe it !! Regards. John D. Stevenson. A.M.I.Mar.E. Wet, cold, +4C, Edinburgh/ Leith