Hi Al Those are interesting thoughts you have, but I'm not sure how far you can take them. In my family, I have a whole line of blacksmiths from father to son, and a line of millers, but I think these would be particular professions likely to stay in the family. Among farming folk, a bit of luck and industry (at least in certain periods) could bring you up from farm servant to prosperous tenant farmer quite quickly, and a bit of bad luck could bring you tumbling down again. Then I have an instance of a factory owner whose eldest son turns up as a weaver, while a younger son seems to have taken over the family business - maybe a family quarrel can lead to a sudden change in circumstances. Since you seem to have a particular interest in the railways, it's worth remembering that they only really started up in the 1840s and they would have been the equivalent then of internet startups today - all sorts of people from different backgrounds might have poured in. My g-g-grandfather started as a railway clerk and later became a stationmaster. One of his sons became a stationmaster, another an engine driver, a third a pullman car attendant. His brother, though, only made it to porter before quitting and joining the post office. Their father had been a grocer and, prior to that a joiner, and HIS father and grandfather had been masons. Then the engine-driver, my g-grandfather, sent his sons to a fairly upmarket school. One of them became Steward of Edinburgh Jail, the other a humble clerk. I really don't think there's a lot you can predict, at least in urban societies. And to whoever said this didn't belong on the list - go and join another one if you don't like it. It's perfectly legitimate genealogy-connected invetsigation. Cheers Alan

William BELL (son of Hugh BELL & Bethia, née BELL) married Elizabeth KINNEar (Daughter of William KINNEAR, a banker, of Edinburgh) in Edinburgh in 1820, and they had 13 children. Basically, I have two puzzles, what was Elizabeth's date of birth & mother's name (less important), and what happened to the thirteen children (very important). I tried Scottish naming patterns, as below - not much joy: First daughter should have mother's mother's name, and is actually called Elizabeth Fearne BELL (b. abt 1821, unmarried at 1881) Have found an Elizabeth Kinnear, daughter of William KINNEAR and Elizabeth, christened 23 March 1806 at St. James, Westminster, London, but no other linking evidence. "My" Elizabeth was born about 1800, according to her age at the 1881 Census. First son should have father's father's name & is actually called George William BELL (b. abt 1823) - however, father's father was Hugh BELL : misfit. (Names of three of George William's children known, but nothing more.) Second daughter should have father's mother's name, & is actually Anna Louisa BELL (b. abt 1824) - however, father's mother was Bethia BELL - misfit (Nothing known of life or descendants) Second son should have mother's father's name & is actually Thomas Evans BELL (b. abt 1826) - however, mother's father' was William KINNEAR - misfit (Living with wife & unmarried daughter at 1881 Census, nothing else known) The remaining nine children of William BELL & Elizabeth KINNEAR were: Leonora Georgiana, b. abt 1827 (Nothing known of life or descendants) Hugh Reid, b abt 1829 (Nothing known of life or descendants) Isabella Bethia, b. abt 1830 (Nothing known of life or descendants) Octavius Plunket, b. abt 1832 (Nothing known of life or descendants) Frederik Hayley, b. abt 1834 (Nothing known of life or descendants- related to Mary Hayley BELL, wife of Sir John MILLS???) Archibald Hamilton, b. abt 1835 (Nothing known of life or descendants) Mary Caroline, b. abt 1836 (Nothing known of life or descendants) Valentine Graeme, b. abt 1839 (Wife's, son's & daughter-in-law's names known, daughter's name unknown, VGB & son were distinguished civil engineers) Grace Henrietta, b. abt 1843 (husband's & six children's names known, nothing more) Anybody any ideas about what happened to those about whose life & descendants I know nowt? Don Montague - whose mother was a BELL

Social class is still important in the UK. (To those who think these things important, that is!) People did move up and down the social scale all the time in the 19thC, because of the speed that money was changing hands and because the surpluses produced by capitalism allowed the emergence of a middle class usually described as 'burgeoning'. (A medical condition that compels people to collect antimacassars, bone china and arcane items of cutlery ;-) ) The upper classes sneered at people in 'trade' but longed to get their hands on their cash. As so often, a really good way to understand the subtleties of the UK class system in the 19thC is to read the great social novelists: Dickens, Trollope, Mrs Gaskell. etc I too have noticed that the men in my family all tended to follow the same profession. I dont think this is just about social class, its about 'getting a start'. Your dad or uncle was in a good position to offer you an apprenticeship or have a word with the foreman. Judy ---------- >From: b1caez01 <b1caez01@home.com> >To: SCT-EDINBURGH-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [EDB] Social Class distinctions... >Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2001, 6:54 am > > Especially when social class was so > important to the early UK,

Listers: it just came to me that there may be a clue to one's station in life if we knew of the relative hierarchy of jobs, occupations and the like of our respective ancestors within the communities they lived. Any sites dealing with his sort of thing, out there. That is, if your grandfather was a rail worker, what is the likelihood of their parents being a rail worker or some other worker on a lower rung of the social ladder but with the railway as the next most expedient alternative up the social scale. In broad general terms, we have the lower landed classes and general slaves to society; the middle business classes, professionals, politicians; and then the upper classes with there respective subdivisions...on up to the aristocracy. Has anyone done any theoretical research or scholarship, on distinguishing respective jobs and callings to a hierarchy ladder of social positioning? I can see this as being a hint or clue to assist in researching alternative classes for rellies. For example if my grandfather was a rail worker, what are the chances that his father was a rail worker or at least one of a limited few of other lesser task oriented to rail work or tasks associated with the rail industry. Where did rail works come from in other words. Especially when social class was so important to the early UK, one did not go up the social scale without having been on a lower rung. So what are the suggested lower rungs? How can I use this knowledge...well if typesetter came from being a wood letter cutter, and I knew that my ancestor was a wood letter cutter I might be able to make a leap in faith and assume that the father was a typesetter, or one of equal social status and class distinction. Al ==================================================================== ALL MAIL HAVING ATTACHMENTS ARE AUTOMATICALLY DELETED BY DEFAULT. -O- YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE INSTALLED AND/OR OPEN UNSCANNED ATTACHMENTS. IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IRRESPONSIBILITY. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ® CHRIST IS ALIVE! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Operating out of Windows Millennium it is immune to "CODE RED WORMS." All incoming and outgoing correspondence is scanned by PC-cillin and ZONE ALARM. This writer is computer literate and technically savvy. © Copyright 2000, 2001, Alan Kemp Dempster, Ontario, Canada ® "FORTITER ET STRENUE" This e-mail is privileged, confidential and subject to copyright and Canadian Laws. Any unauthorized use or disclosure of its contents in part or in whole, is prohibited. All rights reserved to legal counsel who owns equal privileged controlling interest over its contents. Free faxes to this number will be attached to my e-mail as an attachment. eFax Number: [1] 253-541-1113. Numbers outside Canada or the U.S. must add a 1 at the first. Anything appearing below this message is not of my doing. =====================================================================

Al, British Telecom's online telephone directory is at http://www.bt.com/directory-enquiries/dq_home.jsp but note that people can opt out of being included. It will be more up to date than directories which are only published every 18 months or so. Have you tried the Matchcode demo at www.capscan.com for postcodes? HTH Marilyn On 27 Sep 2001, at 19:08, b1caez01 wrote: > Is there anyone on-line that lives in Dumfriesshire, Scotland or South > Yorks, England and has access to the respective telephone directories... I > need a few address look ups for me please... these are from an old > Christmas Card list and need up dating. The recipients may be not be > alive. If they are I would like to contact them. Whatever is missing, is > needed, along with telephone numbers, please. The 01144 is the overseas > exchange, from Canada, here. I have beaten my fingers raw searching for > the UK white pages. Royal Mail does not give all that is needed [I found > only one], easily or otherwise, nor do any of the many, many sites I have > visited. Please do not direct me to sites. > > 1. J. + I. Grant 2. P. + J. Steele > 6 Newland Rise Northlodge, Canonbie > Dumfiesshire, Scotland Dumfriesshire, Scotland > ___ ___ ___ ___ > 01144- _______________ 01144-1387-371909 > > 3. K. Steele 4. M. Doherty > 183 Wickersley Rd. 22 Sir Sidney Camm House > Rotherham, South Yorks Albert Str., Windsor > England Berks. U.K. > ___ 4JP SL4 5DP > 01144- _______________ 01144-1753-854642 > > 5. M. McKend 6. K. Steele {moved from 183 ?} > 25 Tweetie Ter. 49 Dale Rd. > Annan, Dumfriesshire Wickersley, Rotherham > Scotland South Yorks, England > ___ ___ ___ ___ > 01144- _______________ 01144- ________________ > > Thanks again, Al > > ==================================================================== > YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION IF YOU DO NOT > HAVE ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE INSTALLED AND/OR OPEN UNSCANNED ATTACHMENTS. > IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IRRESPONSIBILITY. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > ® CHRIST IS ALIVE! > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Operating out of Windows Millennium it is immune to "CODE RED WORMS." All > incoming and outgoing correspondence is scanned by PC-cillin and ZONE > ALARM. This writer is computer literate and technically savvy. > > © Copyright 2000, 2001, Alan Kemp Dempster, Ontario, Canada > > ® "FORTITER ET STRENUE" > > This e-mail is privileged, confidential and subject to copyright and > Canadian Laws. Any unauthorized use or disclosure of its contents in part > or in whole, is prohibited. All rights reserved to legal counsel who owns > equal privileged controlling interest over its contents. > > Free faxes to this number will be attached to my e-mail as an > attachment. eFax Number: [1] 253-541-1113. Numbers outside Canada or > the U.S. must add a 1 at the first. > > Anything appearing below this message is not of my doing. > ===================================================================== > > > ==== SCT-EDINBURGH Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from list mode, send a new email to > sct-edinburgh-l-request@rootsweb.com and put the word unsubscribe in the > message box. Do not add any other words, text, or email addresses to the > message. You will receive an email confirmation notice telling you that > you are no longer on the mail list. > > >

Everyone on the internet has access to Scots Origins, but no-one gets in free! Personal visits to the GRO cost 17 pounds a day or ten pounds the half day if there is a spare place - and the computer system is actually not as easy to use or fast as the one on line. Once you have the info from the index you then have to find the fiche and look at that. Although you can view as many records as you like for this money, in practice searching is not as fast as you might imagine and copies of certificates are of course extra. Even a photocopy costs about two pounds fifty per page. If you already know the details you could of course just apply for the certificate from the GRO. Google will find it if you type in General Record Office Scotland. Judy ---------- >From: FamilysPast@cs.com >To: SCT-EDINBURGH-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [EDB] Help needed >Date: Thu, Sep 27, 2001, 8:37 pm > > Is there someone out there with access to Scots Origins ......

Is there anyone on-line that lives in Dumfriesshire, Scotland or South Yorks, England and has access to the respective telephone directories... I need a few address look ups for me please... these are from an old Christmas Card list and need up dating. The recipients may be not be alive. If they are I would like to contact them. Whatever is missing, is needed, along with telephone numbers, please. The 01144 is the overseas exchange, from Canada, here. I have beaten my fingers raw searching for the UK white pages. Royal Mail does not give all that is needed [I found only one], easily or otherwise, nor do any of the many, many sites I have visited. Please do not direct me to sites. 1. J. + I. Grant 2. P. + J. Steele 6 Newland Rise Northlodge, Canonbie Dumfiesshire, Scotland Dumfriesshire, Scotland ___ ___ ___ ___ 01144- _______________ 01144-1387-371909 3. K. Steele 4. M. Doherty 183 Wickersley Rd. 22 Sir Sidney Camm House Rotherham, South Yorks Albert Str., Windsor England Berks. U.K. ___ 4JP SL4 5DP 01144- _______________ 01144-1753-854642 5. M. McKend 6. K. Steele {moved from 183 ?} 25 Tweetie Ter. 49 Dale Rd. Annan, Dumfriesshire Wickersley, Rotherham Scotland South Yorks, England ___ ___ ___ ___ 01144- _______________ 01144- ________________ Thanks again, Al ==================================================================== YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANTI-VIRUS SOFTWARE INSTALLED AND/OR OPEN UNSCANNED ATTACHMENTS. IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IRRESPONSIBILITY. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ® CHRIST IS ALIVE! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Operating out of Windows Millennium it is immune to "CODE RED WORMS." All incoming and outgoing correspondence is scanned by PC-cillin and ZONE ALARM. This writer is computer literate and technically savvy. © Copyright 2000, 2001, Alan Kemp Dempster, Ontario, Canada ® "FORTITER ET STRENUE" This e-mail is privileged, confidential and subject to copyright and Canadian Laws. Any unauthorized use or disclosure of its contents in part or in whole, is prohibited. All rights reserved to legal counsel who owns equal privileged controlling interest over its contents. Free faxes to this number will be attached to my e-mail as an attachment. eFax Number: [1] 253-541-1113. Numbers outside Canada or the U.S. must add a 1 at the first. Anything appearing below this message is not of my doing. =====================================================================

Is there someone out there with access to Scots Origins who could possibly check for a death record for me? I'm trying to find the death record for William BURCH, died October 3, 1921(according to a second cousin) in Edinburgh. He lived at 3 Argyle Crescent, Portobello, Edinburgh. His wife's name was Emma Cook Smith BURCH. They had a daughter living at home with them named Mabel BURCH who may have registered the death (if his wife did not do it). He was born in England, (Suffolk, I believe) and his father's name was Robert. Can anyone help me find this? Thanks much Dawn, in southern CA, USA

I have in my family, an Ellen GALLAGHER who was in Edinburgh in 1856. At some point, she married a Mr. MELODY, don't know when or where. Ellen was from Co Carlow, Ireland. They had at least one child, Elizabeth Julia MELODY, born in Scotland, probably in the 1850s or 1860s. There may have been other children. I was told that Mr. MELODY served in the British military and is buried in Bombay, India. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Debbie May the love of freedom always ring; it has brought us this far, it proclaims who we are, and together we sing, "Let freedom ring." Music by Barry Manilow, Lyric by Bruce Sussman and Jack Feldman (To download, go to www.manilow.com)

JOHN DALGLEISH born SCOTLAND [unknown place,date], married [unknown],had son JOHN DALGLEISH,who married ANN NORRIS,a spinster of the parish of BERWICK-UPON-TWEED,on 7th march 1869,both aged 21 years,john was living in fountain bridge edinburgh,ann was living in palace street,berwick-upon-tweed.her fathers name david norris. john dalgleish,a baker by profession,died of smallpox on 21st jan.1872. Ann Dalgleish [widow] re-marries on 6th Sept.1879, John SOMERVILLE,of castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed[fathers name-ralph somerville] shown in 1881 cencus all living together at 60,castlegate,with step-sons william alexander DALGLEISH [my grand father] and john DALGLEISH. However,the SOMERVILLES have dis-appeared in the 1891 cencus,and the boys are with grandmother mrs.Ann p. Norris [widow] john was described as a newspaper reporter,who later married a mary ? ,and died 11th dec.1910,aged 41 years,mary died 6th may 1956,at 74, castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed, buried in un-consecrated ground at civic cemetery[church of scotland] ann SOMERVILLE died 12th Dec.1906 ,west end,tweedmouth,aged 56,son DAVID SOMERVILLE present at death john SOMERVILLE died 11th september 1925 at 74,castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed,son DAVID SOMERVILLE living at spittal. need more information on the scottish connection with DALGLEISH ,NORRIS, AND SOMERVILLE,ALSO DESENDANTS

JOHN DALGLEISH born SCOTLAND [unknown place,date], married [unknown],had son JOHN DALGLEISH,who married ANN NORRIS,a spinster of the parish of BERWICK-UPON-TWEED,on 7th march 1869,both aged 21 years,john was living in fountain bridge edinburgh,ann was living in palace street,berwick-upon-tweed.her fathers name david norris. john dalgleish,a baker by profession,died of smallpox on 21st jan.1872. Ann Dalgleish [widow] re-marries on 6th Sept.1879, John SOMERVILLE,of castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed[fathers name-ralph somerville] shown in 1881 cencus all living together at 60,castlegate,with step-sons william alexander DALGLEISH [my grand father] and john DALGLEISH. However,the SOMERVILLES have dis-appeared in the 1891 cencus,and the boys are with grandmother mrs.Ann p. Norris [widow] john was described as a newspaper reporter,who later married a mary ? ,and died 11th dec.1910,aged 41 years,mary died 6th may 1956,at 74, castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed, buried in un-consecrated ground at civic cemetery[church of scotland] ann SOMERVILLE died 12th Dec.1906 ,west end,tweedmouth,aged 56,son DAVID SOMERVILLE present at death john SOMERVILLE died 11th september 1925 at 74,castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed,son DAVID SOMERVILLE living at spittal. need more information on the scottish connection with DALGLEISH ,NORRIS, AND SOMERVILLE,ALSO DESENDANTS

JOHN DALGLEISH born SCOTLAND [unknown place,date], married [unknown],had son JOHN DALGLEISH,who married ANN NORRIS,a spinster of the parish of BERWICK-UPON-TWEED,on 7th march 1869,both aged 21 years,john was living in fountain bridge edinburgh,ann was living in palace street,berwick-upon-tweed.her fathers name david norris. john dalgleish,a baker by profession,died of smallpox on 21st jan.1872. Ann Dalgleish [widow] re-marries on 6th Sept.1879, John SOMERVILLE,of castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed[fathers name-ralph somerville] shown in 1881 cencus all living together at 60,castlegate,with step-sons william alexander DALGLEISH [my grand father] and john DALGLEISH. However,the SOMERVILLES have dis-appeared in the 1891 cencus,and the boys are with grandmother mrs.Ann p. Norris [widow] john was described as a newspaper reporter,who later married a mary ? ,and died 11th dec.1910,aged 41 years,mary died 6th may 1956,at 74, castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed, buried in un-consecrated ground at civic cemetery[church of scotland] ann SOMERVILLE died 12th Dec.1906 ,west end,tweedmouth,aged 56,son DAVID SOMERVILLE present at death john SOMERVILLE died 11th september 1925 at 74,castlegate,berwick-upon-tweed,son DAVID SOMERVILLE living at spittal. need more information on the scottish connection with DALGLEISH ,NORRIS, AND SOMERVILLE,ALSO DESENDANTS

Hello June Causewayside is a street in the Newington area. I had some relatives that lived there well into the 1920s. Last year I went for a walk around Edinburgh looking for houses where my relatives have lived. I found Causewayside, but it dodn't really seem to be a residential area any more. Best wishes Helen Curtis Genealogical Transcription Service www.genealogicalservices.co.uk

I have just received details of a marriage which took place on 22/12/1820 at St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh, and the residence of the bridegroom was given as Causewayside, Ronaldsonsland. Does anyone recognise this location at all? Thanks in advance for any help! June McNeil

DALGLEISH [OR DALGLIESH,DALGLISH] , NORRIS

I am new to this list as I spend most of my time on the Bristol Listing. I am hope that SKS can help me resolve a problem. I am trying to locate a friend from the early 50s from Edinburgh. The white pages give me her address and phone number but when I call that number it is the wrong party. The operators have been no help. Looking for: Joyce Penman Christie, spouse of I. M. Christie Their listed address is Oxgangs Farm Drive 58, Edinburgh EH139PS and the listed number is 131 441 1458 TIA Jean Kunkle Rowland On the far side of the pond

Hello Mary most of the benches were placed in the gardens from the 1950s onwards. They are mostly memorial benches. It seems to me that Willie and May would either have dedicated a bench to a relative or perhaps the bench was dedicated to them. There is usually a little plaque screwed onto the back. There is no fixed lifespan, they are repaired by the Council as they need it, so the bench might still be there! A very helpful man at the Council is willing to look at the records for you, although he is not sure about the kind of information that can be given out (ie personal details of donors) snail mail is Department of Recreation Edinburgh City Council 49 York Place Edinburgh EH1 3JD you can also call +44 131 200 2000 which is the Council switchboard I forgot to get permission to post the email address and since it is one person's work address and not a departmental one I will send that to you privately. Judy Olsen ---------- >From: "legarthm" <legarthm@levin.pl.net> >To: SCT-EDINBURGH-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [EDB] WOOD MONTGOMERY >Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001, 4:53 am > > Oral history says that they donated a seat for the Princes Street Gardens.

William LOCKIE a Police Sergeant retired from Berwick to Edinburgh, died age 79 yrs. on 5 February, 1959. His wife was Mary Jane Fraser Simpson . He lived & died 66 Allan Park Drive, Edinburgh. Did they have children ? Is anyone researching this family ? I would love to have more info' Mary

Further to my previous message. It was not William Lockie WOOD & wife Marion who donated the seat in the Princes St Gardens. All the other info' about them is correct. The seat was donated by Willie WOOD, & his wife, Susie ( MONTGOMERY.) Mary

Ethelbert Mason COWE age 29 yrs, marr. Helen MONTGOMERY age 25yrs. They married in the St Mary's Cathedral, Palmerston Place. He was a restaurant Chef, Bachelor, lived 5 Torphichen Street, she was Resaurant Waitress spinster lived 48 Prince Albert Buildings. They had one son at least as E. COWE was Informant at the death of Helen. He lived ? Priormuir, St Andrews. Dunino is where Helen lived before her death age 74 yrs. I assume that Ethelbert & Helen moved sometime after their marr.or possibly Helen moved as a widow. Mary