This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: stephendawson16 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/218.2.1.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi There Colin, my name is Stephen Dawson from the village of New Sauchie, Clackmannanshire, Scotland, and i am a direct descendant of Thomas Dawson and Helen Wilson`s 10th child, or 7th son, Joseph Dawson, born 1855 who married christina stevenson, who are my great grandparents. The child you have missing in your letter is Allan Dawson, their 6th son, as Lynn also did not know about either, he was born in Coalsnaughton, parish of Clackmannan on 16-02-1853, died 31-05-1853, aged 3 months and 14 days ibid. so Colin what descendant are you providing the data for, and at what line does this line take going back to Thomas. Where are you from then Colin ?, are you in U.K. or abroad, i await your reply, bye Stephen Dawson. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: CaledonC Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/218.2.1.1.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I have just stumbled across the Dawson thread and make a somewhat belated entrance ! I am connected to the Dawsons indirectly thro' marriage and have been doing some research towards providing a surprise 80th birthday package for a direct descendant of Thomas Dawson and Helen Wilson thro' their son John ( the 2nd child ) . The family were mostly coal miners in Coalsnaughton in Tillicoultry Parish of Clackmannan . I had difficulty over finding a marriage record for Thomas and Helen and am of the opinion that Lynn is correct in assuming that the record found for Thomas Lawson is a transcription error from the original doc.( GROS Data 468/00 0030 0238 ) . David appears in the 1851 census return as being born in 1846 in Tiilicoultry Parish and living in Coalsnaughton . There appear to have been 9 siblings in total - Janet John William Peter Margaret David Helen Thomas and Joseph. Colin Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: CaledonC Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/218.3/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Lynn I have just stumbled across the Dawson thread and make a somewhat belated entrance ! I am connected to the Dawsons indirectly thro' marriage and have been doing some research towards providing a surprise 80th birthday package for a direct descendant of Thomas Dawson and Helen Wilson thro' their son John ( the 2nd child ) . The family were mostly coal miners in Coalsnaughton in Tillicoultry Parish of Clackmannan . I too had difficulty over finding a marriage record for Thomas and Helen and am of the opinion that you are correct in assuming that the record you found for Thomas Lawson is a transcription error from the original doc.( GROS Data 468/00 0030 0238 ) . David appears in the 1851 census return as being born in 1846 in Tiilicoultry Parish and living in Coalsnaughton . There appear to have been 9 siblings in total - Janet John William Peter Margaret David Helen Thomas and Joseph . Regards Colin . Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: jim_dawson5 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/218.2.1.1.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi Lynn, To be honest I am not sure yet. Here is what I have discovered about my connection with Patterson's so far: My Grandmother, Helen Mitchel Kennedy (1900-1971), had 4 sisters and 3 brothers, from her parents Donald Kennedy and Janet Mitchel. One of her sisters, Janet Kennedy, married John Patterson, what must have been in the earlyish 1900's. They had 4 children, Donald Patterson, Janet Patterson, Jane Patterson and William Patterson. I actually remember some of these people before their death, and lived in the town of Coalsnaughton, Clackmannanshire. I have not however tried tracing John patterson back through his line, but I suspect their may be a connection further back from him. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: lynnalcantara68 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/218.2.1.1.1.1.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: James, My gggrandfather David (married to Janet Paterson) had a son James born approximately 1876. Is this your relative? Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: stephendawson16 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/218.2.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: HI JIM, COUSINS WE CERTAINLY ARE I HAVE INFORMATION THAT MIGHT BE OF INTEREST TO YOU, MY E-MAIL ADDRESS IS stephendawson16@hotmail.co.uk, WE CAN TYPE OFFLINE, SEND A E-MAIL TO ME. I`M IN NEW SAUCHIE. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: jim_dawson5 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/218.2.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: This sounds very interesting indeed. I was born in Devonside, and lived most of my life in Coalsnaughton, my name is James Dawson. I am new to researching my lines, so cant offer too much information to you guys at the moment, but what I do know is my father was named James Dawson, his father before him was James Dawson (piper WW1, military medal, cited as clackmannanshire, miner). My GGrandfather was a stone mason working on the build of the Wallace Monument in 1869. My fathers family was connected to Pattersons, who still live in Coalsnaughton to this day, as does my mother, who knows the history more than I. I wonder if there is a connection in this thread to my family? Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Thanks! Someone posted a bunch of possible siblings of Androw marrying and having children just before 1620, in Alloa. I've also seen signs of a Paterson in one of the outlying villages, and several in crafts in Alloa. I'm wondering from when they were there. As I mentioned, sorry for getting frustrated, coal miners were outright a formal caste of serfs in Scotland at that time, so once a family got into coal mining he couldn't get out of it, and also coal miners had a whole adaptive set of norms and didn't often marry anyone else. However, siblings of the line that fell into coal mining serfdom were quite free to have done anything. I have so far strung together pieces of information on the history of coal mines in the 16th and 17th centuries in Alloa and Clackmannan, and associated places down the Forth, into quite a coherent picture. Especially helpful has been Susan Mills, of the Alloa History Museum. She has a lot of knowledge about it and was very helpful on the phone. One of them professors sent me a list of six articles that had nothing to do with coal mining, that part of Scotland or the 17th century. I had better luck in the local university library - even have a journal article, and two book chapters by the same author, telling all about Scottish coal miners and serfdom, and an amazing amount of specifics in general histories of Scotland, not to mention coal mining in Scotland before the industrial revolution, about Alloa and elsewhere along the north bank of the Firth of Forth. You know, that blew up in the mine owners' faces, though it took them two centuries to admit it. Nobody wanted to become a slave, with their children after them, so they had to pay coal miners far more than anyone else made, and though their work was horrible and their wives and children worked along side them in the mines, they also rather worked when they felt like it, and it drove up the price of coal to 4 x what coal from any other country cost. Their living conditions were nasty, but not by the standards of the average lowland Scot of the time. In fact, they may have thought solid walls of brick and wood and chimneys constituted a real step toward civilization. I wish I knew what was going on in the life of Andrew Patersone that he wanted to become a coal miner. You'd think his family couldn't have been craftsmen (burghers) of the town, and he must have been dispossessed from somewhere. He could have been a younger son who didn't inherit land, or someone who couldn't pay the mortgage to inherit his land holding. My brother is a Y DNA match to this family, and the menfolk in my line really didn't look out for each other, often not even their sons. I gather that among lowland Scots, some shared resources with their siblings and others didn't. To be sure, he married a woman whose family shares their name with that of a nearby coal mine (Crombie), and may also have come from southwestern Fife, so maybe it's his parents' generation who became coal miners. The Snaddons were definitely one of the little inbred group of families of coal miners. They lived in one or more of the mining settlements around Alloa and Clackmannan parishes. Dora -----Original Message----- From: Lynn Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:22 PM To: elspeth@glenview-cottage.co.uk ; sct-clackmannanshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE] Miners in Clackmannan and Alloa These people are in my tree too, although not my direct line. However, I have thirteen children for Andrew and Janet, garnered from the IGI several years ago. They are Andrew born about 29 Apr 1627 Robert born about 29 Apr 1627 Ann or Anna born about 1 Apr 1631 Patrick born about 8 Sep 1634 Hew born about 24 Nov 1635 John born about 24 Nov 1635 Son born about 24 Nov 1635 William, born about 16 Oct 1637 Janet born about 24 Apr 1640 David born about 29 Apr 1643 William born 8 Oct 1643 Andrew born 10 Aug 1645 James born about 5 Nov 1648 Where I have put "about" means that this is a christening date rather than a birth date, so not necessarily twins or triplets as it appears. My connection is through Janet who married William Snadan/Sneddon, who is a distant connection in my grandmother's Sneddon family in Fife. I have loads of Sneddon information is anyone is looking for that, but nothing on those Paterson children as I have not researched them. I would be delighted to share trees on personal email if anyone wants. Lynn Maple Ridge, BC, Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dora, Andrew Paterson and Janet Condie are my 9x Great Grandparents. I have a marriage of 23/9/1625 in Alloa, Clackmannanshire. They had 10 children (that I could find), David, Robert, Anna, Patrick, John, William, Janet, William, Andrew, James. Daughter Janet born 21/4/1640, married a William Snadon in about 1661 and they are my 8x Great Grandparents. I have no information as to what their occupation was but do know the Alloa area was a big coal mining industry so not surprised that they were all miners. I can go back two (fairly reliable) more generations from Andrew, his parents were Andro Paterson and Margaret Mckay, then Alexander Paterson and Elizabeth Moncrieff. Can't be of any help on the mining side but can give more information on the Patersons if you would like. Regards, Elspeth (Underhill) -----Original Message----- From: sct-clackmannanshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-clackmannanshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: 31 October 2012 20:35 To: SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE] Miners in Clackmannan and Alloa I am researching a Paterson family, that appear to be pretty much descended from one couple, Androw Patersone and Jonet Condie, who married in Alloa parish in 1621. They intermarried pretty exclusively with a small number of other families, many of whom were also in Alloa (or Clackmann) by the 1620’s. By the end of the 18th century, every single last man jack of them were coal miners. It looks to me like they’ve always been coal miners. Some on the webroots or whatever it is site have traced some of these families to parishes and villages further east on the north bank of the Forth of Firth, in Fife, where there were also mines and these families were also miners. There was a really good discussion at Webroots, but Webroots’ owner carefully doesn’t allow the display of e-mail, and you can only communicate by going to that site, and I guess the last time the person who led the discussion knew of reason to go to that site was five years or so ago, so no way to contact him. Also this owner is highly quixotic with discussions that pertain to two counties and that makes the researcher’s life difficult. Evidently, by 1602, miners and salt makers were tied to their employers as serfs, for life, unable to leave or transfer to different employment without permission from their owners. Their children were bound to work for the same employers for life as well. This law was finally repealed in 1799, with an ineffective effort to repeal it in 1775, that I guess didn’t really repeal it. Meanwhile in many parishes coal miners couldn’t even be buried in sanctified ground. Now, mind, I grew up seeing signs like “miners can’t be served here”, but.... I’ve heard of caste systems, but.... So far I have learned of three coal miners’ villages and one to three mines in this pair of parishes, that existed by the mid 17th century. I guess that coal was mined in the hills north of the north bank of the Firth of Forth since forever, though it suddenly came into real demand in the 18th century. But some people always burned coal so there would have been a market for it. If coal miners were serfs tied by law to their employers from 1602, and Lord knows what they were before 1602, maybe it’s more that other serfs in Scotland were freed at this date than that coal miners and salt makers became serfs at this date. Anyhow, they couldn’t move to a new location several towns away unless their employer most likely moved them. Does anyone have any information at all about coal mines and their owners, and those owners’ activities, ca 1600? Incidentally I’d be interested if anyone has any knowledge of the roots of that Patterson family. It’s a very common name so one would have to have specific knowledge about that family. Y DNA is Anglo-Saxon. Not among the names that came from towns in Fife. Could have come from a more southerly direction. Yours, Dora Smith Thanks! Yours, Dora Smith ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

These people are in my tree too, although not my direct line. However, I have thirteen children for Andrew and Janet, garnered from the IGI several years ago. They are Andrew born about 29 Apr 1627 Robert born about 29 Apr 1627 Ann or Anna born about 1 Apr 1631 Patrick born about 8 Sep 1634 Hew born about 24 Nov 1635 John born about 24 Nov 1635 Son born about 24 Nov 1635 William, born about 16 Oct 1637 Janet born about 24 Apr 1640 David born about 29 Apr 1643 William born 8 Oct 1643 Andrew born 10 Aug 1645 James born about 5 Nov 1648 Where I have put "about" means that this is a christening date rather than a birth date, so not necessarily twins or triplets as it appears. My connection is through Janet who married William Snadan/Sneddon, who is a distant connection in my grandmother's Sneddon family in Fife. I have loads of Sneddon information is anyone is looking for that, but nothing on those Paterson children as I have not researched them. I would be delighted to share trees on personal email if anyone wants. Lynn Maple Ridge, BC, Canada

I am researching a Paterson family, that appear to be pretty much descended from one couple, Androw Patersone and Jonet Condie, who married in Alloa parish in 1621. They intermarried pretty exclusively with a small number of other families, many of whom were also in Alloa (or Clackmann) by the 1620’s. By the end of the 18th century, every single last man jack of them were coal miners. It looks to me like they’ve always been coal miners. Some on the webroots or whatever it is site have traced some of these families to parishes and villages further east on the north bank of the Forth of Firth, in Fife, where there were also mines and these families were also miners. There was a really good discussion at Webroots, but Webroots’ owner carefully doesn’t allow the display of e-mail, and you can only communicate by going to that site, and I guess the last time the person who led the discussion knew of reason to go to that site was five years or so ago, so no way to contact him. Also this owner is highly quixotic with discussions that pertain to two counties and that makes the researcher’s life difficult. Evidently, by 1602, miners and salt makers were tied to their employers as serfs, for life, unable to leave or transfer to different employment without permission from their owners. Their children were bound to work for the same employers for life as well. This law was finally repealed in 1799, with an ineffective effort to repeal it in 1775, that I guess didn’t really repeal it. Meanwhile in many parishes coal miners couldn’t even be buried in sanctified ground. Now, mind, I grew up seeing signs like “miners can’t be served here”, but.... I’ve heard of caste systems, but.... So far I have learned of three coal miners’ villages and one to three mines in this pair of parishes, that existed by the mid 17th century. I guess that coal was mined in the hills north of the north bank of the Firth of Forth since forever, though it suddenly came into real demand in the 18th century. But some people always burned coal so there would have been a market for it. If coal miners were serfs tied by law to their employers from 1602, and Lord knows what they were before 1602, maybe it’s more that other serfs in Scotland were freed at this date than that coal miners and salt makers became serfs at this date. Anyhow, they couldn’t move to a new location several towns away unless their employer most likely moved them. Does anyone have any information at all about coal mines and their owners, and those owners’ activities, ca 1600? Incidentally I’d be interested if anyone has any knowledge of the roots of that Patterson family. It’s a very common name so one would have to have specific knowledge about that family. Y DNA is Anglo-Saxon. Not among the names that came from towns in Fife. Could have come from a more southerly direction. Yours, Dora Smith Thanks! Yours, Dora Smith

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: davidfmccallum Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/168.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: David McCallum was my Grandfather Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: chrispepper148 Surnames: Mustart; Helwege Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/485.1.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Hi I have a George Mustart, born 1805 in Alloa. He was a merchant seaman. I can't find any connection with other Mustarts from the region - but surely they are related! Wish I could find his parents. He came down to London and married Martha Helwege. I would be grateful if anyone knows anything about him. Regards Chris Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: ruthhay2 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/522.2/mb.ashx Message Board Post: name: Margaret Turnbull gender: Female birth date: 07 Mar 1790 birthplace: ALLOA, CLACKMANNAN, SCOTLAND father's name: David Turnbull mother's name: Ann Hutton as you can see there are 2 margaret turnbulls so it could be that you have the parents mixed up. i dont have any credits for scotlands people at the minute so cant check opr, if you have a death entry for Alexander Blair (1833)this might claify his parents which in turn will decide if he had brothers and sisters. I know this will either confuse you more or give you an aha moment, when i get credits i'll check the opr and hopefully be able to clear up any confusion :) Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: ruthhay2 Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.scotland.clk.general/522.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: Name: Margaret Cornwall Turnbull Gender: Female Baptism/Christening Date: Baptism/Christening Place: ALLOA, CLACKMANNAN, SCOTLAND Birth Date: 31 Jul 1792 Birthplace: Alloa, Clackmannan, Scotland Death Date: Father's Name: Alexander Turnbull Father's Birthplace: Father's Age: Mother's Name: Margaret Whitelaw theres a marriage entry for margaret and Alexander Livingstone in 28 march 1819, and 2 kids john blair livingstone 12 march 1819 and agnes blair livingstone 30 may 1822. as you can see they were married after john was born, could duncan be a lover but mr livingstone married her thinking the child was his? i'll see what else i can find and let you know. Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.

Thanks Pat.. would be most appreciated. I wonder if perhaps Robert had died between 1846 and1851 Sincerely.... Liz ladyopal67@gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: sct-clackmannanshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sct-clackmannanshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pat van Putten Sent: Monday, 16 July 2012 5:56 PM To: sct-clackmannanshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE] ROBERT LENNOX Hi - you may have this ?? 1851 census. Town of Menstrie, Clackmannanshire. Address - school (sabbath) - whatever that means.?? Janet Syme (housekeeper) dob 1821 Alloa. Thos Lennox 1845 Clackmannanshire (son) Alex Wright 1848 Clackmananshire (son) Wm Goudner 1846 Menstrie (son) Other person appearing on census is Marion Ritchie dob 1817 Airdrie. No mention of a Robert ?? Have4 had a quick look at the 1841 census but nothing outstanding, will have another look later. Regards Patvp > From: ladyopal67@gmail.com > To: SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:14:37 +1000 > Subject: [SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE] ROBERT LENNOX > > Hi > Looking for any information about a ROBERT LENNOX and JANET SYME.. > their son Thomas Lennox was b. 1845 any help would be greatly > appreciated > > Sincerely.... Liz > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi - you may have this ?? 1851 census. Town of Menstrie, Clackmannanshire. Address - school (sabbath) - whatever that means.?? Janet Syme (housekeeper) dob 1821 Alloa. Thos Lennox 1845 Clackmannanshire (son) Alex Wright 1848 Clackmananshire (son) Wm Goudner 1846 Menstrie (son) Other person appearing on census is Marion Ritchie dob 1817 Airdrie. No mention of a Robert ?? Have4 had a quick look at the 1841 census but nothing outstanding, will have another look later. Regards Patvp > From: ladyopal67@gmail.com > To: SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:14:37 +1000 > Subject: [SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE] ROBERT LENNOX > > Hi > Looking for any information about a ROBERT LENNOX and JANET SYME.. their > son Thomas Lennox was b. 1845 any help would be greatly appreciated > > Sincerely.... Liz > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-CLACKMANNANSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Looking for any information about a ROBERT LENNOX and JANET SYME.. their son Thomas Lennox was b. 1845 any help would be greatly appreciated Sincerely.... Liz

Hi Could someone please check for a THOMAS LENNOX B.1845. parents possibly Robert and Janet Syme at Alloa, Clackmannon? We think he married a Janet Paterson from Sauchie. Any help at all would be most welcome Sincerely.... Liz

Looking for a marriage of the above people around 1815/20 area. I have a son born in 1829 called Robert marrying Catherine CAIN in 1859. Also looking for Catherine's parents William CAIN and Hannah CARLINE,, marriage sometime before 1840 when Catherine was born. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely.... Liz ladyopal67@gmail.com