Hello again, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Win >I came across some messages on the > Argyll email list from March 2005 concerning Christina and Murdoch CURRIE. > > I am not related to the CURRIEs but Christina CURRIE (MS KENNEDY) was the > sister of my gg grandfather and Murdoch CURRIE was the informant to the death > of my gg grandfather. > > Therefore my interest in Murdoch C is only peripheral. However I was > interested enough to track Murdoch's parents - John Currie and Janet Mackay. I > note from searching IGI that John CURRIE and Janet MACKAY had 4 children born in > Morven - Peggy, Anne, Cirsty and Janet. Where was Murdoch born? I did find > a Murdoch Currie born in Torosay to corretly named parents but I don't know > if this is your Murdoch? Is it? I believe it is the same Murdoch. > You posted recently that Murdoch and Hector were born in Torosay with 6 > additional children born in Morven. Can there be any doubt that the Murdoch > CURRIE who married Christina KENNEDY is your Murdoch C from Torosay? I am > descended from her parents - Neil KENNEDY and Flora M/S MacKAY. Because of the time frames we are researching there can always be doubts. Murdoch, like his father John was born Torosay. I haven't found another Murdoch Currie with the same parents. On all the censuses that I have found him 1851, 1861, 1881 he was born Torosay, lived in Morvern. I did not find him or his father on the 1841 census, although they were both still living. Nor have I found Murdoch on the 1871 census. I have assumed that he was away at sea, or just missed. Do you have some reason to doubt that the Murdoch Currie who married Cirsty/Christina Kennedy is the same Murdoch who was the brother of my great-great grandmother Janet Currie ? It would have been nice if the second marriage record had showed WHO Murdoch had been married to before. > <In your message to the Argyll list 18 months ago you mentioned that you had > no info on Murdoch CURRIE's descendants. I assume you have info now but, > just in case, I have found - again through searching the Morven records of IGI > - 4 children born to Murdoch and Christina: > > Neil CURRIE: b 10 Sep 1830 Morven to Murdoch Currie and Cirsty Kennedy > John CURRIE b 7 Aug 1834 Morven > Archibald CURRIE b 23 Dec 1834 Morven > Flory CURRIE B 11 July 1839 Morven There were more children (taken from census info) Jessie b 1842 (9 in 1851) Mary b 1846 (5 in 1851) Donald b 1849 (3 in 1851) Ketty b 1854 (7 in 1861) Also daughter Christian CURRIE who married James MERRY Torosay 1855. I THINK that this Christina or Christian was with her Grandmother Janet MacKAY CURRIE for the 1841 census, Knock. She was listed as being 8 years old. In 1841 the rest of Murdoch and Christina KENNEDY's family were in Lochaline, which I believe is close to Knock. Other than Christina I have not gone any further in tracing the children of Murdoch and Christina, although I have been looking for them. I did find a reference once that Flory had gone to Australia, but couldn't find that now. > If you have any info you can forward re the birth of Murdoch CURRIE and his > marriage to Christina KENNEDY I'd be very happy. I have info re death of > both and re Murdoch's second marriage. I did take a copy of Murdoch's birth record off the Torosay film, but I cannot find it. I'm sure it was just a one-liner as per the usual OPR entry of that time frame. There is not a record of Murdoch CURRIE and Christina KENNEDY's marriage on the OPR for Morvern. (LDS film 102383) Children listed on this film were Neil, John, Archibald and Flory just as listed in the IGI. Neil and Archibald were born Knock and either John's place of birth was not listed or I did not write it down. Flory was born Lochaline. The other children are not listed. If you can add anything further to this please let me know. Regards, Win MacKenzie

Hi List I found the following, which may be of use to someone, whilst looking at the Muckairn OPR : 1832 Born in the Parish of Morvern Alexander son Oct 20th to Donald MacIntyre, Airdeny, and Janet . MacFie his spouse. Baptised 6 Jany 1839. Regards Les

Hi Win I contacted you direct about 2 weeks ago but my email got lost in your filtering system. I attach my original post (in normal type) with some additions (in italics). <I hope it's OK to contact you direct. I came across some messages on the Argyll email list from March 2005 concerning Christina and Murdoch CURRIE. I am not related to the CURRIEs but Christina CURRIE (MS KENNEDY) was the sister of my gg grandfather and Murdoch CURRIE was the informant to the death of my gg grandfather. Therefore my interest in Murdoch C is only peripheral. However I was interested enough to track Murdoch's parents - John Currie and Janet Mackay. I note from searching IGI that John CURRIE and Janet MACKAY had 4 children born in Morven - Peggy, Anne, Cirsty and Janet. Where was Murdoch born? I did find a Murdoch Currie born in Torosay to corretly named parents but I don't know if this is your Murdoch? Is it?> You posted recently that Murdoch and Hector were born in Torosay with 6 additional children born in Morven. Can there be any doubt that the Murdoch CURRIE who married Christina KENNEDY is your Murdoch C from Torosay? I am descended from her parents - Neil KENNEDY and Flora M/S MacKAY. <In your message to the Argyll list 18 months ago you mentioned that you had no info on Murdoch CURRIE's descendants. I assume you have info now but, just in case, I have found - again through searching the Morven records of IGI - 4 children born to Murdoch and Christina: Neil CURRIE: b 10 Sep 1830 Morven to Murdoch Currie and Cirsty Kennedy John CURRIE b 7 Aug 1834 Morven Archibald CURRIE b 23 Dec 1834 Morven Flory CURRIE B 11 July 1839 Morven Again I hope it's OK to contact you direct, the info is of some interest and that you have info on Murdoch's birthplace. If I can be of any more help please contact me.> If you have any info you can forward re the birth of Murdoch CURRIE and his marriage to Christina KENNEDY I'd be very happy. I have info re death of both and re Murdoch's second marriage. Again thanks for your help and if I can do anything for you please let me know. John S John S

Hello List, Morag asked the question below a while back and has had no replies. I am interested in the same question so I wonder if there is an answer out there? Post-1855 PRs could still be very interesting. Many thanks, Mary in Oz >I've done much family research in England and used the parish >registers way past the date of civil registration in England of 1837 >(infact into the 1930's). Do parish registers in Scotland continue >after civil registration in 1855? and if so can they be viewed? >(and where). Also burial records are sparse for the parishes I am >interested in in Argyll, would these have been recorded after >1855? and if so are they held anywhere. I know that scotlandspeople >provide civil death's after this date. But often parish registers >can reveal other things. Although it is true in England that after >1813 they become somewhat more formal.

Sarah Yes I agree entirely with what you say, and it's a very good point , as I also know people who were given - not only a middle name but on some occasions first names after the midwife , nurse, or GP, who was in attendance at the birth. Regards Stewart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Galbraith" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [ARGYLL] Use of middle family name > Re middle names in general, rather than ones that appear later in life... > > In some parts of Argyll, particularly Kintyre, there was a custom related to > middle names which might have been designed to confuse family historians. > > The FIRST child baptised by a minister, after he took up his post in a new > parish, would be given the minister's name as his or her middle names. This > can sometimes lead to a child of Argyll parents having up to three extra > middle names - none of which might have any family significance at all. > > I've come across an example of this while researching my own family, but > because the child in question was not related to me, I did not note the > names - sorry. > > I do not think that this custom was very long-lived, but my mother remembers > a Carradale man born in the early 1900s who was given the non-local middle > names of Somerville McLeod - the name of the minister who baptised him. She > described it as "the done thing" at one time. > > Best regards > > Sarah > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.3/474 - Release Date: 13/10/06 > >

Re middle names in general, rather than ones that appear later in life... In some parts of Argyll, particularly Kintyre, there was a custom related to middle names which might have been designed to confuse family historians. The FIRST child baptised by a minister, after he took up his post in a new parish, would be given the minister's name as his or her middle names. This can sometimes lead to a child of Argyll parents having up to three extra middle names - none of which might have any family significance at all. I've come across an example of this while researching my own family, but because the child in question was not related to me, I did not note the names - sorry. I do not think that this custom was very long-lived, but my mother remembers a Carradale man born in the early 1900s who was given the non-local middle names of Somerville McLeod - the name of the minister who baptised him. She described it as "the done thing" at one time. Best regards Sarah

Dear Lesley I hope you don't mind but I wondered if you had excess replies to your request. If so, I would be grateful if you would pass on one or two researcher names. It so difficult to determine good researchers from the other side of the world. Regards Cathy On 17/10/06 1:25 AM, "david and lesley" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi all, > I hope I am not breaking any rules here, but I have decided that I really need > to engage a professional researcher to help knock over a few brick walls. > > I have used one previously, but that was nearly 20 years ago, and I believe > this gentleman has since passed away.If anyone can recommend a good, reliable > Argyll researcher could they please email me OFF LIST. > > Thank you for any suggestions > > Regards > Lesley > Melbourne, Australia > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi again, I think we have discussed this fact before (or was it on another list?), but children were often given middle names that came from the father's employer too. My great great great grandfather, Hugh MCGREGOR (1802 - 1874) came from Balquhidder, Perth in the mid 1830s to work as overseer at 2 CAMPBELL owned farms, Inverneill & Taynish. (It is possible that the CAMPBELLs were some relative to Hugh, but no proof of that yet.) His son, my great great grandfather, was christened Dugald Campbell MCGREGOR in 1849. Another son was called Joshua Bowden MCGREGOR. I have heard that a Mrs. CAMPBELL was a BOWDEN by birth. A sister was called Ann Banner MCGREGOR but I have found no origins for the BANNER name yet. Mary in Canada

Hi Cathy, I had only two responses. One was from Ewan Steed who offered his own services www. ancestryroots.co.uk and a recommendation from John McIntyre of his researcher, Helen Curtis, @ www.genealogicalservices.co.uk I went to her site and was impressed by the positive feedback, so have emailed her. She regularly goes to Edinburugh and Glasgow, Good luck Lesley Melbourne, Australia

----- Original Message ----- From: "Cathy Dowie" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [ARGYLL] Query Re:Professsional Researchers WithArgyll Expertise > Dear Lesley > I hope you don't mind but I wondered if you had excess replies to your > request. If so, I would be grateful if you would pass on one or two > researcher names. It so difficult to determine good researchers from the > other side of the world. > > Regards > > Cathy > > > > On 17/10/06 1:25 AM, "david and lesley" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I hope I am not breaking any rules here, but I have decided that I really >> need >> to engage a professional researcher to help knock over a few brick walls. >> >> I have used one previously, but that was nearly 20 years ago, and I >> believe >> this gentleman has since passed away.If anyone can recommend a good, >> reliable >> Argyll researcher could they please email me OFF LIST. >> >> Thank you for any suggestions >> >> Regards >> Lesley >> Melbourne, Australia >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, that's the sort of thing, but is there a Gt Granny's name you would think of using later in life which is what my Gt Grandmother did? ;-) Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "D & S Tryk" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [ARGYLL] Use of middle family name > And my maiden name was Sheila MacNiven Cameron -- Granny's maiden name being > my middle one. Brother was Alexander Menzies Cameron -- mother's maiden name > being his middle name. Both from Argyll, need I add! > Sheila in Missouri

Hello List, I get the impression that when some children were named for a grandparents other relative in the 1800s they were just given the first name at baptism. Then later in life the surname of that same ancestor was added. Has anyone else found this? Margaret Templeton later became Margaret Sim Templeton Murdoch Morrison later became Murdoch McNeill Morrison Cheers, Mary

Hi, I don't think I've come across any of these names (Bruce, Leitch etc) in my tree. My great-great-grandfather James McCallum, a stone worker, was the last person in my line to be born in Glassary, and that was either in 1816 or a bit later (I can't pin down the right birth record for him as he didn't have a mother's name on his death certificate and the marriage record is very sketchy). His father was Archibald McCallum, who was living at Nether Rhudle, in Glassary parish, in an early census (sorry I can't now remember whether it was 1841 or 1851) with his (?second) wife Flora and two young children who were probably grandchildren. Archibald lived to a ridiculously old age, 90 or something, and died in Inverkeithing, Fife, where by that time James McC and family were living. James McC married a Mary Ann Murray, but as her father was a sailor and she seems to have been born at sea, it has been very difficult to track down this family or work out where she and James met. I can't find James or Mary Ann or any of her family in the 1841 census, but they were married in the mid 1840s in Inverkeithing. I think James may have migrated to work on Inverkeithing Harbour. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the other McCallums of that time had gone to Canada as the family became very scattered in the late 19th and early 20th c due to emigration all over the world. best wishes, Sheila

These John Camerons are SUCH a confusing bunch. I have an Alexander Cameron, illegitimate son of Mary (ms) Cameron and a "John Cameron" too. Alexander was born about 1857 but his birth is NOT registered. We think he was born in Stronaba, but it's hard to tell, because he gives a variety of birthplaces on various records. And the pertinent kirk session records seem to be missing. This John Cameron, father, could have been born anywhere from 1800 to about 1835 in the Lochaber area. Or even elsewhere! Talk about a brick wall!! Sheila in Missouri

This information about the extra middle name is interesting. I have a Robert Andrew Menzies in Argyll who, by the time he was married, had become Robert Andrew Rutherford Menzies. He clung to that name from then on. But we never figured out where he got it from. My best guess is that he had a maternal grand-aunt in Perth who married an Andrew Rutherford and he wanted to impress them. (Maybe Andrew was well-to-do!) I've no proof of any of this, mind you. He did go to Perth from Oban for his wedding at the Temperance Hotel, though. Some of this sort of thing still goes on in the US. I know a woman who discovered she supposedly had an early Dutch settler on her family tree, and quickly adopted Ten Eyck into the middle of her rather ordinary Irish name. Sheila in Missouri

And my maiden name was Sheila MacNiven Cameron -- Granny's maiden name being my middle one. Brother was Alexander Menzies Cameron -- mother's maiden name being his middle name. Both from Argyll, need I add! Sheila in Missouri

Ah ha! I already thought about that. ;-) Before I got the birth certificate, post 1855 for Elizabeth's sister, the census had it written "LEGROW"; not unlikely I thought. The writing on the birth certificate is very clear. The writing on the marriage certificate to which I referred earlier is also very clear. Dont you just like it when that is so? I've a situation similar to that you refer. Mine were Sheret/Sherret in Scotland and very [without any variation] Sherratt in England. I've got a WEIR too in the family where the gr grandmother's m.s. was in the birth records of a line of children. It does give a clue to searches, if only they would be consistent! <g> Yes, conundrums they are. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hardy Plants" > Then I would be tempted to suggest its a mis spelling that has been adopted > There is a line of Bowis's in New Zealand which I could not work out how > they fitted with the rest known in the UK. > After some digging and working out of details sent by the family notes from > there it transpires that they became Bowis from Bowes within the birth of 3 > children and the distance of some 500 miles. !!! > Mr Bowes is born in Scotland, marries and has Junior one Bowes > By the time they have Junior 4 they are in England and all are called Bowis > It is with that name that they emigrate and so it sticks > > > As to using the middle name of a grandmother I have that in other Scots > families. > One had me confused for a while as the daughter was named ###### Weir > ######### and it looked very much like her mothers M.S was also Weir. > Eventually I found that mother was Haire and her mother was Weir. !!!! > > Don't you just love these conundrums > Janet said >> As a matter of interest, all of the records you have been able to produce >> are post the births of Elizabeth Vigrow [m.s.Campbell] Rowatt and her >> siblings.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [ARGYLL] Use of middle family name > Hi Jill, Many thanks for taking the time to search for me. I had searched > for it earlier when I saw it written in the birth certificate of her > sister; it was not included in the register entries on the birth of a > brother, nor of a younger sister, all born on or after 1855. I have > become accustomed to seeing a middle family name on a birth certificate. > It seems that following the death of her father in 1905 she decided to > keep the name alive by writing it when she witnessed the subsequent > marriage of her son. I was curious about the sudden use of it all those > years later, instead of her maiden surname following her marriage when it > was not included in her marriage certificate. I thought the incidence of > the use was worth sharing, as well as making an enquiry about it. > > As a matter of interest, all of the records you have been able to produce > are post the births of Elizabeth Vigrow [m.s.Campbell] Rowatt and her > siblings. > Then I would be tempted to suggest its a mis spelling that has been adopted There is a line of Bowis's in New Zealand which I could not work out how they fitted with the rest known in the UK. After some digging and working out of details sent by the family notes from there it transpires that they became Bowis from Bowes within the birth of 3 children and the distance of some 500 miles. !!! Mr Bowes is born in Scotland, marries and has Junior one Bowes By the time they have Junior 4 they are in England and all are called Bowis It is with that name that they emigrate and so it sticks As to using the middle name of a grandmother I have that in other Scots families. One had me confused for a while as the daughter was named ###### Weir ######### and it looked very much like her mothers M.S was also Weir. Eventually I found that mother was Haire and her mother was Weir. !!!! Don't you just love these conundrums regards Jill Bowis www.benderloch.org.uk/forum - Ardchattan history, geology, ecology, genealogy, weather, webcam, local forum www.kintaline.co.uk - where we are, what we do: Kintaline Plant and Poultry Centre

Hi Dorothy, I have hit a brick wall with my Cameron's too be honest. I have John Cameron born abt 1806. parents John Cameron, Ploughman/Shepherd and Sarah Mckecknie. (there may well be a baptism for him in 1804 to a John Cameron and Sarah McEachen, I can't be 100% sure it's him but it seems likely). I know he had a brother Donald, somewhere nearby, as he signed documents including John's death certificate, but I have been unable too trace his death record to be able to trace him back through the censuses. John married late in 1854 to a Jane/Jean Dempster at Glenhurich (Jane's home), in the parish of Strontian. They lived at Aruindle according the children's birth records. They had 5 children together but John (c.1806) died a few years after the birth of there last child. He was 66 and left the family I think fairly impoverished. After John's death the family lived in Scotstown. Jane died in 1882. Quite horribly by the sounds of it - Ulceration of bowels 6 months and peritonitis 7 days. There children were: Elizabeth who was born in 1854. She died aged 16 in 1871 at Scotstown, listed as a pauper and cause of death - no medical attendant. John was born in 1857 and is my Grt grt Grandfather. By 1881 he had left Argyll for Kinloch Rannoch in Perthshire and become a shepherd there. He married Charlotte Gow from Caputh, Perthshire and they lived at Finnart, Kinloch Rannoch until sometime after 1901. In 1909 Charlotte died and they were living in Caputh. John must have returned to K.Rannoch though and died there at Tigh-an-Ears in 1918. They had 3 children. Including my Grandfather. David was born 1859. David appears to have become the breadwinner of the household for many years. He never married and became a Tailor. He lived at Scotstown for many many years. He died in 1936. Sarah was born 1861. She married Alex Matheison. I have been unable to trace her through the census. But I did find her death record in Leith, Edinburgh in 1939. Margaret was born 1863 she married Angus McMillan. They had two children - Donald and Jane. Angus died of TB a few months after the birth of Jane. In 1901 Margaret was living as a lodger with some of Angus's family in Polloch. I lose them after that and have been unable to find Margaret's death. I think they must have stuck around though as Donald (the son) registered David Cameron's (1859 - 1939) death. Whether any of John's brothers migrated I couldn't say. I seem to be wholly unable to go further back. Regards Morag

> Hi I too have a family name as a middel name David Brown Lang , maternal grandmother's maiden name, my brother has my paternal grandmothers names as his. My PaternalGrandfather had his mothers maiden name as his middel name and my Paternal Grandmother was Elizabeth Richardson Rollo Denovan Mackie. Her middle names being her mothers maiden name , her granmothers maiden name and her grandmothers first husbands surname 9 she being from the second marriage !!! Also many more examples in my tree it all adds up to making people easier to gind especially if you have Browns and Stewarts like me!! Regards DAVID > From: "Ron & Mary Harris" <[email protected]> > Date: 2006/10/20 Fri PM 12:34:22 BST > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [ARGYLL] Use of middle family name/records > > Hi, > > This middle name thing has always puzzled us too! We have several relatives, > of Argyll origins, who suddenly had middle names, where none existed before. > > George MCMILLAN (1856 - 1830) was George Hamilton MCMILLAN by the end of his > life. (Of course his mother was a HAMILTON & he did have a son also named > George, so we can see the reasoning behind taking this middle name.) > > Donald MCKINNON (1884 - 1964), always known as "Dan" to family, evolved to > Donald James Paterson MCKINNON, but this evolved to an entirely new surname > & he was eventually Donald James PATERSON-MCKINNON! (His mother was a > PATERSON, but no Jameses in the family, as far as we can find. And he never > married nor had a namesake son.) > > Both men immigrated - 1 to USA & 1 to Canada. I understand that there may > have been other men of the same name in the area, but it just seems that > adding a new middle name was no big deal years ago. These days, it's an > issue of legality & identity, so it seems odd to us. Another factor for us > to consider when searching for these elusive ancestors of our's! > > Mary > in Canada > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information