I have never been very good at this, although I observe with interest everything going online. My names to search are: Hunter, Bell, Wallace, Holt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "C.Joudrey" <cjjoud@rogers.com> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:55 AM Subject: [SCTCDN] Roll Call > Hello Listers, > > To some a dreaded topic, to others a very welcomed topic. I have pondered whether to try it here again or not, and have decided to go ahead with it. I have just seen one on another list I am a member of be very helpful, so thought it would be worth trying. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! > > The only thing I ask is that in the subject line you put the name of the family you are looking for. > > Thanks > Good Hunting > Christine > List Admin > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > Someday YOU'LL be an ancestor too! > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

Born about 1825 purportedly on Skye. Married Canadian born Mary Cameron of Eldon, Victoria County, ON in 1843. Looking for burial sites.

MCMARTIN, MACMARTIN, MCEWAN, MCEWEN, STOREY, STORY The only thing I ask is that in the subject line you put the name of the family you are looking for. Thanks Good Hunting Christine List Admin ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== Someday YOU'LL be an ancestor too! ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

--- Alan Cameron <alanmc24@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:00:50 +0000 (GMT Standard > Time) > From: "Alan Cameron" <alanmc24@blueyonder.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [WIG LIST] Legal age for marrage in > Scotland > To: SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com > > Hi all > > In the 19th century the legal age was 14 for boys > and 12 for girls, with > parental consent. This is why you should always > check marriages and not > just banns. > > In the 1860's my gr gr grandfather's brother was > married age 14 his wife was > only 12,by the age of 16 she had 3 children of her > own > > > yours Alan Cameron > > > > ==== SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE Mailing List ==== > - Parish Lookups - > http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~leighann/parishes/parishlist.html > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion > online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

Greetings All. It is official. Bill S-13 is dead. This afternoon Prime Minister Jean Chetien announced that Parliament has been prorogued. This means that all unfinished business before Parliament dies on the Order Paper. The next session of Parliament is scheduled to start 12 January 2004. Hopefully this will allow us the time necessary to see our legal action scheduled for a hearing before the Federal Court and to receive a favourable verdict for the release of the 1911 Census. With a change of Prime Minister, and new Cabinet Members, perhaps we may get some that will listen to us instead of listening to the dictates of the Chief Statistician. Take a breather, and get ready to start writing letters once again. Happy Hunting. Gordon A. Watts gordon_watts@telus.net Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee Port Coquitlam, BC http://globalgenealogy.com/Census en français http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm

Radford I don't have any information on William, Ann or Jane Ferguson but here is a website dealing with Wellington Co. that may have something of interest for you. http://www.rootsweb.com/~onwellin/index.htm Good Luck

Lianne, I wish I could help but infortunately I live in New South Wales, Australia and that is a very long was from Teeswater Culross Cemetary in Canada! However, I think Cathy b J Moir who runs the Bruce County list may be able to assist you. try CAN-ONT-BRUCE-L@roostweb.com Regards Peter Ferguson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lianne Hunter" <lhunter@islandnet.com> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > I am not SKS but if the person is kind enough to check in that cemetery, > perhaps he (or she) could check out a person in my family line there. 1) > John McClory 2) William McClory (child). > Hope this will work. > Lianne Hunter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Ferguson" <pbi@austarnet.com.au> > To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 3:43 PM > Subject: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > > > > Could SKS help me to find out if and where obituaries for my great > > grandparents may have been published? They were Norman McKenzie and his > wife > > Sarah (nee McKay) who were buried in Teeswater Culross Cemetery in Bruce > > County Ontario Canada. > > > > Their headstones read: > > Norman McKenzie 1838 - 1916 > > Sarah McKay 1833 - 1918 > > > > Best regards > > > > Peter Ferguson > > > > > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > > FAMILY HISTORY: a quiltwork of lives > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > Genealogists don't die, they just lose their census. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Dennis, I do not think so. As far as i know all my Ferguson forbears came to Australia in the 1870-80 era. My mother, Mary McKenzie, was born in Teeswater, Ontario, Canada and I still have relatives there although I do not know any of them. Regards Peter Ferguson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Doyle" <dennisd100@msn.com> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > Peter, > I cannot help you with the McKenzie's but I have Ferguson's in Oakville Ontario from 1860-1947. Would you be related to them > Dennis Doyle >

I am not SKS but if the person is kind enough to check in that cemetery, perhaps he (or she) could check out a person in my family line there. 1) John McClory 2) William McClory (child). Hope this will work. Lianne Hunter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Ferguson" <pbi@austarnet.com.au> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 3:43 PM Subject: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > Could SKS help me to find out if and where obituaries for my great > grandparents may have been published? They were Norman McKenzie and his wife > Sarah (nee McKay) who were buried in Teeswater Culross Cemetery in Bruce > County Ontario Canada. > > Their headstones read: > Norman McKenzie 1838 - 1916 > Sarah McKay 1833 - 1918 > > Best regards > > Peter Ferguson > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > FAMILY HISTORY: a quiltwork of lives > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

Could SKS help me to find out if and where obituaries for my great grandparents may have been published? They were Norman McKenzie and his wife Sarah (nee McKay) who were buried in Teeswater Culross Cemetery in Bruce County Ontario Canada. Their headstones read: Norman McKenzie 1838 - 1916 Sarah McKay 1833 - 1918 Best regards Peter Ferguson

Hi Dennis, Well your Ferguson's are a bit later than my William Ferguson. Therefore like you, can't make a connection...Since their daug. was born in 1840 in Ontario, I am using 1838-39 as their arrival...BUT, then again their daug. could have been a 2nd or 3rd child and they arrived even earlier!! What I need is to connect with someone who has William & Ann Ferguson with another child. Your Ferguson could very well be connected, the area is right,but they are 30 years or so later... So it could be yours are grandchildren of one of the male sons...this is a very big brick wall!!! Thanks for answering... Carol Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Doyle" <dennisd100@msn.com> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 11:23 PM Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > Radford, > My Ferguson's, John Ferguson and wife Constance Lauder Ferguson came to Oakville from Scotland (lore says Edinburgh) around 1870. They had three sons around 1870 George, John and James, although John and James sometimes went by Thomas and William (they were big for using middle names as first names) Son George moved to Toronto in the late 1880s. Men in the family were plasterers by profession. Thats all I know about my oakville fergusons. i would love to know more like where in scotland theyre from and when they came. let me know if this helps > Dennis > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Radford > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 8:36 PM > To: SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > > Dennis, > > I have been looking for a William & Ann FERGUSON who had a daughter named > Jane b. > in Ontario in 1839. Jane probably marr. in Wellington County to a Thomas > Dunne (cannot find marr. record) & later to a John Sweeney..... > > Have you run across this William Ferguson? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dennis Doyle" <dennisd100@msn.com> > To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 7:11 PM > Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > > > > Peter, > > I cannot help you with the McKenzie's but I have Ferguson's in Oakville > Ontario from 1860-1947. Would you be related to them > > Dennis Doyle > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Peter Ferguson > > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 5:21 PM > > To: SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > > > > Could SKS help me to find out if and where obituaries for my great > > grandparents may have been published? They were Norman McKenzie and his > wife > > Sarah (nee McKay) who were buried in Teeswater Culross Cemetery in Bruce > > County Ontario Canada. > > > > Their headstones read: > > Norman McKenzie 1838 - 1916 > > Sarah McKay 1833 - 1918 > > > > Best regards > > > > Peter Ferguson > > > > > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > > FAMILY HISTORY: a quiltwork of lives > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > > Someday YOU'LL be an ancestor too! > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/03 > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > Genealogists don't die, they just lose their census. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > Someday YOU'LL be an ancestor too! > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/03

Radford, My Ferguson's, John Ferguson and wife Constance Lauder Ferguson came to Oakville from Scotland (lore says Edinburgh) around 1870. They had three sons around 1870 George, John and James, although John and James sometimes went by Thomas and William (they were big for using middle names as first names) Son George moved to Toronto in the late 1880s. Men in the family were plasterers by profession. Thats all I know about my oakville fergusons. i would love to know more like where in scotland theyre from and when they came. let me know if this helps Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: Radford Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 8:36 PM To: SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries Dennis, I have been looking for a William & Ann FERGUSON who had a daughter named Jane b. in Ontario in 1839. Jane probably marr. in Wellington County to a Thomas Dunne (cannot find marr. record) & later to a John Sweeney..... Have you run across this William Ferguson? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Doyle" <dennisd100@msn.com> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > Peter, > I cannot help you with the McKenzie's but I have Ferguson's in Oakville Ontario from 1860-1947. Would you be related to them > Dennis Doyle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Ferguson > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 5:21 PM > To: SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > > Could SKS help me to find out if and where obituaries for my great > grandparents may have been published? They were Norman McKenzie and his wife > Sarah (nee McKay) who were buried in Teeswater Culross Cemetery in Bruce > County Ontario Canada. > > Their headstones read: > Norman McKenzie 1838 - 1916 > Sarah McKay 1833 - 1918 > > Best regards > > Peter Ferguson > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > FAMILY HISTORY: a quiltwork of lives > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > Someday YOU'LL be an ancestor too! > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/03 ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== Genealogists don't die, they just lose their census. ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Peter, I cannot help you with the McKenzie's but I have Ferguson's in Oakville Ontario from 1860-1947. Would you be related to them Dennis Doyle ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Ferguson Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 5:21 PM To: SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCTCDN] Obituaries Could SKS help me to find out if and where obituaries for my great grandparents may have been published? They were Norman McKenzie and his wife Sarah (nee McKay) who were buried in Teeswater Culross Cemetery in Bruce County Ontario Canada. Their headstones read: Norman McKenzie 1838 - 1916 Sarah McKay 1833 - 1918 Best regards Peter Ferguson ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== FAMILY HISTORY: a quiltwork of lives ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Dennis, I have been looking for a William & Ann FERGUSON who had a daughter named Jane b. in Ontario in 1839. Jane probably marr. in Wellington County to a Thomas Dunne (cannot find marr. record) & later to a John Sweeney..... Have you run across this William Ferguson? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Doyle" <dennisd100@msn.com> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > Peter, > I cannot help you with the McKenzie's but I have Ferguson's in Oakville Ontario from 1860-1947. Would you be related to them > Dennis Doyle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Ferguson > Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 5:21 PM > To: SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SCTCDN] Obituaries > > Could SKS help me to find out if and where obituaries for my great > grandparents may have been published? They were Norman McKenzie and his wife > Sarah (nee McKay) who were buried in Teeswater Culross Cemetery in Bruce > County Ontario Canada. > > Their headstones read: > Norman McKenzie 1838 - 1916 > Sarah McKay 1833 - 1918 > > Best regards > > Peter Ferguson > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > FAMILY HISTORY: a quiltwork of lives > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > Someday YOU'LL be an ancestor too! > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.537 / Virus Database: 332 - Release Date: 11/6/03

Greetings All. Extracts from Hansard regarding the latest round of debates in the House of Common on Bill S-13 have been placed on the Post 1901 Census Project website in both official languages. They are accessible at http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Hse32.htm en francais http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Hse32_f.htm The earlier round of debates, held 20 October can be found at http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Hse31.htm en francais http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Hse31_f.htm A verbal vote was taken on the motion to have Second reading and refer the Bill to Committee. This vote passed, however a recorded vote was called for and will take place, assuming Parliament has not been proroqued, on Monday 17 November 2003 (as shown on the Projected Order of Business for the House of Commons). For those who have questioned why no motions for amendments were made during this debate, amendments to the Bill cannot be proposed at this stage. According to the Rules of Parliament amendments to Bills can be made for various reasons during Committee, at Report Stage, and at Third Reading. Happy Hunting Gordon A. Watts gordon_watts@telus.net Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee Port Coquitlam, BC http://globalgenealogy.com/Census en français http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm

Hi Jim. It would appear that the government pulled a swifty on us. When I last checked the Projected Order of Business, Bill S-13 did not appear after Monday, however it appears that it was debated today (Thursday). I did not see the proceedings of the House today and will have to wait to review Hansard tomorrow to see what was said. If government is proroqued tomorrow, then all unfinished business dies on the the order paper. As I have stated before, it is possible that when Parliament resumes in a new Session, they could bring forward anything they feel strongly enough about. At this moment, it is questionable whether Parliament will be proroqued, or recessed, for the Liberal leadership convention. Two things go in favour of a recess rather than proroguing. First -- apparently Don Boudria called for a vote on the motion on the first Monday after resumption of Parliament following the leadership convention. Second -- the Projected Order of Business for the House now shows the House sitting on Monday 17 November 2003, and Bill S-13 receiving Second Reading vote at that time. A recess would not cause unfinished business to die on the Order Paper. The motion before the House has been that S-13 receive Second Reading and be referred to Committee. I am not aware of any amendments to that motion. As I have indicated before, anyone considering making a submission to the House Committee reviewing S-13 should be working on that submission at this time. We would like to see a great many of such submissions to ensure the Committee is aware of our concerns regarding Bill S-13. We will see what happens tomorrow -- whether the government is recessed or proroqued. Happy Hunting. Gordon A. Watts gordon_watts@telus.net Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee Port Coquitlam, BC http://globalgenealogy.com/Census en français http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Galley" <jgalley@zeuter.com> To: "Gordon A. Watts" <gordon_watts@telus.net> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Query Just wanted to ask if the house adjourns to-morrow, will the bill die on the order paper. If so what will happen? Regards Jim

Greetings All. Even though shown on the House of Commons Projected Order of Business for today (Monday), Bill S-13 received no further debate. All available time was taken up by debate on Bill C-46, which has not yet been completed. Bill S-13 does not yet appear on the Projected Order of Business for the rest of the week. While not addressed directly, one MP speaking on Bill C-46 made a comment indicating the possibility that the current Session of Parliament would be concluded this coming Friday. It was not clear whether that would be by proroquing or simply by recessing of parliament. There was also a comment indicating that should a Federal election be called by the new Prime Minister, because of clauses in the Elections Act it could not take place before April 2004. I believe that has to do with realignment of electoral districts to accomodate increased MP representations due because of population increases reflected in the 2001 Census. We will keep you advised of any further developments. Happy Hunting. Gordon A. Watts gordon_watts@telus.net Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee Port Coquitlam, BC http://globalgenealogy.com/Census en français http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm

Greetings all. While not originally shown on the House of Commons Projected Order of Business for the coming week, Bill S-13 now shows up on the schedule for Monday. There are two Bills at Report Stage scheduled before Bill S-13. It is possible that debate on those two Bills could take up all the available time and they will not get to S-13 but there is no certainty this will happen. Debate on the earlier scheduled Bills, C-46 and C-20, starts at 3:00 PM Ottawa time. The House normally adjourns at 6:30 PM so that leaves 3.5 hours available Monday for debate on all Bills on the schedule. There is currently 3 hours and 25 minutes left available for Second Reading debate for S-13. House proceedings are televised through CPAC on channel 396 for StarChoice satellite subscribers. Bell ExpressView and cable subscribers will have to check their listings to find what channels to watch. Happy Hunting. Gordon A. Watts gordon_watts@telus.net Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee Port Coquitlam, BC http://globalgenealogy.com/Census en français http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm

Actually, the first Orange Lodge in Ireland was founded by a group which included several Masons and the ritual used in Orange Lodges is very similar to and based largely on the Masonic. A well known Canadian, who was both an Mason and an Orangeman as well as a Scot and also our first Prime Minister was Sir John A. Macdonald. For a listing of other prominent Canadians who were Orangemen see: http://orangeroots.tripod.com/members.htm The Orange Lodges in Canada developed into something quite different than in Ireland. Their members were from all backgrounds including Europeans, like Poles and Italians in Toronto, and even some native peoples, Mohawks. They all had three things in common, support for the Protestant faith, the Monarchy, and the British Commonwealth (Empire ). ----- Original Message ----- From: Leslie <lwgrauer@shaw.ca> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:32:17 -0800 To: SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCTCDN] Masons and Orange Societies > http://www.orangenet.org/stasi.htm > > > http://www.thelodgeroom.com/history.html > > The groups were quite different - some sites with information > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > FAMILY HISTORY: a quiltwork of lives > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > Canada's Orange Roots http://orangeroots.tripod.com/ca.html Email: canadaorangeroots@email.com -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup CareerBuilder.com has over 400,000 jobs. Be smarter about your job search http://corp.mail.com/careers

Thanks for the links & information. Always more to learn about. Lou ----- Original Message ----- From: "C.Joudrey" <cjjoud@rogers.com> To: <SCOTS-IN-CANADA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [SCTCDN] Orange Lodge Certificate > Hi Lou, > > Personally I have heard of both, but I don't know if they go hand in > hand.... > > Automatically when I hear Orange or Orangmen I think Ireland, and the > parades of July 12th that are held in Ireland that can be quite volatile, > ie...Protestant vs. Catholic......something to do with King William 3rd. > also known as William of Orange! > > I don't know much about either so perhaps someone who is more in the know of > the two can answer your question, I found this online and am cutting and > pasting for you to read..... > > Christine > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > > IRISH JOURNAL OF ANTHROPOLOGY, VOL 3 1998, pp. 97-102 > > > > Reviews > > Neil Jarman. Material Conflicts: Parades and Visual Displays in Northern > Ireland. Oxford and New York: Berg 1997. Pp x + 290 photographs, > bibliography and index. ISBN 1 85973 124 4 Cloth; 1 85973 129 5 paper. > > In a year when parades have been the focus for major controversy, Neil > Jarman could scarcely have chosen a better moment to publish a study of > parades. His book gives an account of parades for the last 300 years, drawn > mainly from the Belfast and Dublin newspapers. He buttresses this with > ethnographic field research, mainly in Belfast, and he looks at the visual > accoutrements of parades, the banners, arches and murals. > > In the eighteenth century, he argues, processions by the great and the good > were intended to impress the lower classes with their might and majesty. > Both the state and the city corporations held regular processions, as did, > from the 1720s, the Order of Freemasons. In the later eighteenth century, > parades became a major feature of the Volunteer militias, and more generally > they became part of popular culture. > > Important to this evolving picture was the figure of King William. From soon > after the victory at the Boyne, Williamite anniversaries provided occasions > for stately perambulation. By the mid-eighteenth century, King William was a > popular figure, for example, giving the title "Orange" to Belfast"s Masonic > lodge. This symbolism was unfortunately dogged by a deadly ambiguity. For > the Establishment, and no doubt for Belfast"s Freemasons, King William was > the opponent of Catholic absolutism, champion of constitutional, almost > republican freedoms. But for many in Ireland, William symbolised defeat and > repression. Despairing of William"s capacity symbolically to unify the > population, Dublin Castle eventually tried to divert the population towards > celebrating St Patrick on 17 March. By 1822, therefore, processions on St > Patrick"s Day, were a well-established custom, and King William had become > simply a Protestant hero. > > With the foundation of the Orange Order in 1795, processions commemorating > King William became more popular, especially among the rural Protestant > poor. As the nineteenth century progressed, however, not only Orangemen, but > also Ribbonmen and Freemasons held processions, each of them trying, > sometimes with violence, to discourage the processions of their rivals. For > long periods in the nineteenth century, parading was declared illegal, and > it was not until 1872 that the right to process was finally established. > > >From 1872, Orange Order processions lost at least some of their casual > violence and became a more formalised and stolid expression of Protestant > solidarity against the threat of Home Rule. They were popular not only among > the working classes but also among the middle class and gentry. Such was the > appeal of the Orange Order that after partition in 1921, the Twelfth of July > became virtually a state occasion celebrating the dominance of a Protestant > people in a Protestant state. Protestant opposition to the Twelfth, found > not among only sections of the middle class and gentry but also importantly > among fundamentalists, remained muted. After a heyday between the wars, the > popularity of the loyal orders sank somewhat, and it took the Troubles of > the late 1960s to revive their fortunes. > > The book also considers the parades of Catholic and nationalists, from those > of the Ribbonmen in the early nineteenth century, through the more > conservative Ancient Order of Hibernians and the Irish National Foresters at > the end of the century, to the Republican parades of the present day. These > processions, he says, were confined by Protestant mobs and authorities alike > to geographical areas of Catholic preponderance. He also examines in > tantalizing brevity the parades of the Freemasons whom he sees as a fading > but worthy beacon of non-sectarianism. And he looks at the Civil Rights > marches of the late 1960s. > > The book looks rather exclusively at controversial parades, especially those > of nationalists and loyalists, and one wonders if this does not somewhat > distort the picture. In the late 1840s, at a temporary restoration of the > legality of parading, he gives a glimpse of the processions of the > "Freemasons, Ribbonmen, Thrashers or Repealers," the Belfast Teetotal > Societies, the Independent Tent of Rechabites, Dr Spratt's Teetotalers and > Father Mathew's Benevolent Society." By the Great War, however, this trickle > of parading bodies had become a river. Now there were Shepherds, Good > Templars, Boys Brigade, Catch My Pal, Catholic sodalities, trade unions and > countless others. One would like to have seen more of a mention of these > groups. Why, for example, is there no mention of the great Corpus Christi > processions which annually halted the traffic in Belfast"s Falls Road? > Orange processions may have been the most conspicuous of Ulster"s parades, > but they were also the least typical. > > Jarman considers how processions, arches and murals are used to define > territory. Arches­­early ones were floral and sometimes consisted of little > more than a string of flowers across a road­­were widely used at both > official and non-official demonstrations in Ireland from at least the > eighteenth century. Interestingly, he sees the painting of murals­­which > began in Belfast in the early twentieth century­­as an extension of that of > building arches. Both arches and murals, he says, define a territory > ethnically, and in some cases, therefore, the raising of an arch or the > painting of a mural has been an occasion for riot. > > Looking at the territorial significance of the parades themselves, he relies > on ethnographic observation especially on Belfast's Sandy Row. Not only do > parades give definition to contentious areas, but also they create a > symbolic unification of the "county" as the diverse lodges and districts > come together in a single unified parade. He suggests that the cycle of > Orange parades over a period of years symbolically defines the whole > province as both united and Protestant, since scarcely a town or village is > excluded from at least an occasional Orange procession. Perhaps this > analysis makes an over-simple assumption that to parade through an area > implies that the area "belongs" to the people who parade. Processions of Boy > Scouts, for example, have taken place annually in most Ulster towns and > villages for much of this century. But if an Orange procession defines a > territory as "belonging" to the Protestants, why does not a procession of > Boy Scouts define an area as "belonging" to the Scouts? Another aspect of > the processions is religion. This is discussed most closely in a very > thorough analysis of different kinds of banner. It might have been good to > see more mention of the rituals which gives so much meaning to what is > displayed on banners, arches and murals. It would have been good too to have > seen a fuller description of the qualitative difference between the Twelfth > of July processions and the more sober "church parades." At least some of > the heat generated over disputed parades in 1996-97 arose from attempts to > stop church parades which Orangemen have seldom seen as triumphalist or > territory-defining. It is easy, however, to quibble over a topic so familiar > and controversial. Jarman"s book gives an excellent account of the > controversial parades of Ireland, showing how the pattern of parading has > changed quite drastically over three hundred years. His study is important > for it shows how parades are not an immutable part of "Ulster tradition," > but that they have been subject to change. > > Anthony D Buckley > Ulster Folk and Transport Museum > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > > Whoever said "seek and ye shall find" was not a genealogist! > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > ==== SCOTS-IN-CANADA Mailing List ==== > Find your ancestors, before they find you! > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >