Hi Linda, OK, I understand, but tell me where to start researching and I'll send you what I find. Let me be your feet and eyes it will help me and might help you also. By the way we have two Beattys yDNA tested that are paper trail of these lines. So if you know of a living male Beatty in Ireland, whose of either lines It would behove us to try to get him tested too. Thank you Nelda Nelda's websites - http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member ----Original Message Follows---- From: lmerle@comcast.net To: Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] New to List (researching Beatty) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:33:23 +0000 Hi Nelda, Unfortunately the information that I have and the information you have is inconclusive. None of it is enough to establish that a John Beatty, b. in Ayrshire fought in King William's Army. All we have for this is secondary information. Egle is not a primary source. Neither are county history. These are clues that should be verified but so far, they've not been, that I am aware of. This stuff: > They lived in the Scottish lowlands in the Dalbeattie area That was where there was a large Beatty clan. There is no evidence that the ones named in this unproven lineage were from there or lived there. Zilch. In my own case there's a further problem with New York/PA link that needs resolved. I do have some research that I gathered but I cannot share it yet because the research is not quite complete. I often use this line as an example of how learning about the records and the time and place assists. I was once spammed by a man with a huge attachment of all the "John Beatties" in the muster lists of the early 1600s in Ireland. He had concluded it was impossible to identify which was the one he sought. However he didn't realize that IF the John Beattie we seek WAS an officer in the Irish army at the time, he wasn't mustered in. Two reasons, the first rather bogus...IF he was born and raised in Scotland, as the story goes, then he wasn't living in Ireland to be mustered at all. The second one is the better: officers weren't mustered in bought bought commissions usually. (They still might be named on muster lists of course). A search of surviving lists of officiers revealed one and only one John Beatty and he served with a fellow officer surnamed Clinton. However it still must be proven that this John is the John that is sought, who lived in Antrim, etc etc. No James. The James who stayed is easier to document because he did stay. There seems little doubt that he was living in Down and shedding descendents into a small area of Pennsylvania (which overflowed rapidly). For several years now I've been busy working for a client and have not done any personal research. I do have some information that is like bricks. I need to get a couple more bricks and add mortar to make the wall or build the case. Until I do the info I have will stay on my disk because if I let it out it'll be buried in dreck and/or become the gospel truth, and it's not. Unfortunately there's a lot of stuff of mine 'out there' that is not proven but totally speculative and I don't want to add to the poop I'm responsible for <grin>. I might also add if I do figure it out I'm going to publish it in a real magazine and leave it to cousins to find it as revenge <grin>. I can't think of anything meaner!! A couple problems we all have here is that the soldiers in King William's Army at not known. The more prominant members of King James' are published, but not King Williams, as near as I can tell. They may lie buried in Kew Garden in the WO category. Some may be identified in English and Irish gov. records though a lot of the Irish gov papers were destroyed in 1922. There may be some that were copied out before hand and exist in a secondary collection in the UK. I got a list of a couple libraries to check in Ulster next time I'm back as well. I would expect that PRO would be more fruitful. Another problem is that many OPRs were destroyed for the area of Scotland they supposedly came from and are very incomplete in the early 1600s anyway. If these two brothers were able to buy commissions in the army they were well off. They may have been younger sons of a landed family and/or a merchant family (the officer I found might have merchant connections). Or an unlanded but gentle family with a little cash. So they might be named in a Scottish will or testament (these are two different things). With no sign of an officer named James, the received family info kinda 'breaks down'. So do the records...the Protestants were purged from the army in the years leading up to the 1690s. Comfortingly for those who believe they were Protestants, John disappears too, but where's James? Donno. Need to spend a lot of time 1. studying early British military records and 2. finding them in PRO, PRONI, and the NAI (etc). I've not had time to do that research. They weren't officers in James' army (always good to check!). A third problem of course is the difficulty of finding traces of a man who left Antrim in 1729 and apparently wasn't there for long. Some data gathered. Maybe same data everyone else has. Not done gathering data so not time to make decision. There's a DNA study of border clans that should be of interest to all Beatties who think their ancestors came from there. However it's highly unlikely they did as I do know based on personal research that the surname is rather indiginous to Ireland as alledged in some of the legends (O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees"). I do hope everything in O'Hart is right because I love thinking I descend from some 'prince' who fought at Clontarf on the right side <grin>, even though he too is unfindable. Just think of the novels we can write..... Sorry to open my big mouth -- I too harbor fantasies about this line but until my sister and I do resolve the difficulties of our own connection to it, we won't be showing up at any family reunions. Probably our family is related but if I mention why I think so on this list it'll become gospel -- and it's not. It's possible we're not though more likely we are, but all it takes is another trip up the pike to show we're not. There's a lot of nonsense published on the Clinton line too -- O'Brien claimed they were native Irish, but he's incorrect and I think I can prove it, kinda. They were displaced from the earldom of Lincolnshire during the British Civil War. That line has a fascinating connection with English Puritans in the early 1600s and appear to have financed the Mass Bay Colony (I think....maybe next time I review my data I may have second thoughts). So if they leaned in that direction, it becomes clearer why after the Restoration, the grandson was unable to get the earldom restored to them. Also I once found a fascinating article that told a story about how I think it was DeWitt Clinton, sealed the New York state documents right after the Revolution with his signet ring, that he knew was the ring of the earl of Lincolnshire. Of course the British had 2 Clinton generals on their side and the US also had two.... One of the British Clintons then learned that they were related to these American Clintons, the long lost family line....Donno if it is true or not...and it mighta been one of the two American Clintons that used the ring, not Dewitt.... I'm just free associating, not opening files or checking any documentation. The Clintons left the Beatties in the dust very fast in Newburgh. Had no time for those over religious semi relatives. However I do love the story of John's widow entertaining Ptown with her Irish harp in 1729. Also the Rev. Charles Clinton Beatty, when he returned to England looking for a cure for his wife's breast cancer (he shoulda tried Lourdes: she died) attended the coronation of King George! How embarrassing <grin>. I don't even recall where I found this gem but it's on a piece of paper in this huge pile I must organize and file after I finish this book project for my client in the next few weeks. Why am I organized with my clients' stuff and such a slob with my own??? If I only had some Clinton genes I mighta made something of myself <grin>....but I'm just another grouchy Beattie, twice over. My "stayed in Scotland" ones were also religious fanatics (Wee Freers) and near as I can tell, grouchy too. Linda Merle