Hi Edward , Hope email finds things going well. Thanks very much for your time & interest. Thanks for the post, your so very kind. I always look forward to reading your vast knowledge. See my comments below. Good luck with your family search. All the best. Genealogy yours , Grandpa Walt "Scot-Ulster-Irish" McKenzie, Sr. ================================================================ Surname---------------------------IRE BRICKWALL----------------------Origin Placenames ---------------------------------------------c.1810-73--------------------------------------------- McKENZIE , Daniel, Eliz., John, James Lloyd**, George Thomas** BALLYMONEY * MILLER , Margaret (Millar, Meuller) BALLYMONEY CASSIDY , Maryann**, John, Patrick** BALLYMONEY -------------------------------------------------- * Likely Ulster NI, particularly Antrim, Ire has 1-2 doz. Ballymoney's. All males Ire & Eng were farmers & labourers ** Also, 1873 -1907 Bingley, YORK & Accrington, LANCASHIRE & Durham, NEW CASTLE, ENG as well as Annan, GLASGOW, SCOT. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Andrews" <edward.andrews@btinternet.com> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 11:05 AM Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Roll Call - McKENZIE & MILLER - Antrim / Derry, Ire - 1790 to 1850 I'm not a family historian or genealogist . . . just a grandpa interested in one long McKenzie line Walt > What are you doing mentioning Henry VIII? Since key to cracking my / this 15yr brickwall is which religion is basic / essential, I'm looking very carefully at what took place since / after the Reformation 1533 starting point. I don't know when my McKenzie line turned devote practicing Catholics in Sct or Ire between 15-16 th century MacKenzie Clan or 1810-25 to 1871 Ire. Walt All my brickwall clues involve info from USA, Eng, Ire & Sct. I'm just starting a rool call effort where I will post on 3 Rootsweb sites every mo. each year until I solve my brickwall. Walt > Until 1603 Scotland and England were separate countries in every way, you > know like Canada and the US? This I knew in gammer school and Sct was Catholic Walt > The Episcopalians lost out to the Presbyterian in 1689 at the time of the > "Glorious" revolution. 1745 was a rebellion after which the Episcopalians > were more heavily persecuted. Thanks for the input from your vast knowledge. Walt > The whole point of this list is that while Ireland was mainly Roman > Catholic as the Reformation didn't work in Ireland, the various population > movements into the North East changed that balance so that in that area a > majority were protestant of one kind or another - the mixture of protestant > denominations is important as they all have different records and different I knew. Walt > While there were not well known risings in Ireland during the 18th Century, > There was a constant rumble of inter communal tensions over the problem of > land holdings. Presbyterians were under various civil disadvantages. However > the people in Ulster had Ulster tenant right which meant that when the early > 99 year or three lives leases fell in people had capital which they were > able to take to the new colony in America. I knew. Walt > There had always been movement between Scotland and Ireland however after > the Plantation most of the movement from Scotland was Protestant as most of > Scotland was Protestant. I realize very well that about 1702 and on, Sct was like 5 % Catholic but somewhere along the way my Mckenzie's converted. Walt > Generally speaking you can't really make any judgement of people's religion > by their surname. For example what would you expect an Adams to be? > I hope that this clarifies some of the misconceptions which you have here. > Edward Andrews Generally one can have clues from surname about religion e.g. MacKenzie, Miller more likely Protestant (2) than Catholic but I have 5 items that suggest Catholic prior to 1871 in Ire via Eng & USA. Walt > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt"Irish"- Cent.NJ Shore via Boston [mailto:WaltIrish1@comcast.net] > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 3:28 PM > To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Sc-Ir] Roll Call - McKENZIE & MILLER - Antrim / Derry, Ire - 1790 > to 1850 > > McKENZIE ~ MADDEN ~ CASSIDY ~ O'NEIL ~ SULLIVAN ~ SHEEHAN > IRE Sponsors : MOONEY ~ GREY ~ KENNEDY in USA > BALLYMONEY ~ QUEBEC ~ YORK ~ LANCASHIRE ~ GLASGOW ~ BOSTON > Greetings All , > Primary essential roll call info is on first portion of > page 1. Any input > greatly appreciated. McKenzie suggest Protestant but family all CATHOLIC > since > 1874 US & possibly earlier in 18-19th century Ire. > May the God of your understanding BLESS > YOU. > Grandpa Walt > "Scot-Ulster-Irish" McKenzie, Sr. > > Unknown McKENZIE b.c. 1793* > (My GGG Grandfather) > //BRICKWALL INDIVIDUAL\\ > Daniel McKENZIE b.c. 1820* Ire ? John McKENZIE b.c. 1827* Ire ? > (My GG Grandfather) (Daniel's Brother or Cousin > ? - Farmer**) > d.c. 1871*** Ire ? > Children > m.c. 1846 Mgt. MILLER (Mueller)* James Lloyd b.c.1848-52**&**** Ire > Not listed at Groni as Protestant m. m. April 25, 1874 to Mary CASSIDY > Ire**. > Children (at CATHOLIC Chapel > North Rd. York, ENG) > BALLYMONEY,*****Ire Children**** > Elizabeth b. June1841 or 47****Ire Alice E. 5, John 3, & Mary > A. 2m > m. None - To BOSTON 1895 James - stone mason**** 1881 & labourer** > 1874 > John b. Aug 1848 Ire From YORK to LANCASHIRE, ENG > 1878-1880 > m. 1874 CATH.- Katie MADDEN KEIGHLY / BINGLEY to ACCRINGTON Distrs. > Children USA GeorgeThomas > b.c.1885-89**GATESHEAD ?,ENG > Francis (Frank) Joseph b. 1875 GLASGOW to NY 1907 Residence ANNAN,SCOT > John , Jr. b. 1881 CATHOLIC m. 908 BOSTON to > Helen MADDEN > Daniel Christopher b. 1887 Soc. Secu. 1935 - Age 48 Unemployed - > Parents : > Joseph b. 1891 JamesLoyd McKENZIE & MaryAnn > McKENZIE > O'NEIL~SULLIVAN~SHEEHAN Shipper Foreman 1908 & House Painter 1968 > BOSTON-SOMERVILLE,MA,USA Children - None > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------- > * Based on children birth year. > ** Children or self m. record. > *** Based on son John 1872 arrival in BOSTON via QUEBEC, CANADA. > **** Based on children age, b. in 1900 US or 1881 ENG census. > ***** Children ship passenger record ; 12 in Ire, likely ANTRIM, Ire. > BACKGROUND INFO > > SCOTS / ULSTER / IRISH - 17-18th CENTURY - Mc PROT. / CATH. - 03 / 06 > > Scot. - Reformation (1533 Henry VIII) took place post-1560 and > during the > 600 -1700's (17th -18th century) Scot. transformed itself from Catholicism > to > Protestantism. In the 1600's there was much upheaval in Scot. In 1702, > Scot. was > less than 5 % Catholic and concentrated in the NW islands, the Highlands, > Aberdeenshire. In 1745, the Episcopalians lost out to the CoS Presbyt. > Both > Protestant & Catholic Scots men went to Antrim, Ulster, Ire as farmers, > builders > & blacksmiths and married Irish Catholic women. Even though the Presbyt. > were > more welcomed than the Catholics, the children were raised Catholic and > eventually > the whole family assimilating into Irish culture and thus lost their Scots > identity. > The Irish Clan McSweeny, Clan Donald & O'Neill, originally from Scot., are > well-known examples. Many Catholics were given shelter and protected by Sir > Randal McDonald, ethically Catholic, in his Glens of Antrim, Ire. These > Scots were > from Ayrshire & Argyle (McDonald homeland). > Ire - During the 16-1700's (17-18th century) Ire was mostly > Catholic. LDS > Family Search.org list in Ire b. 1688, a James McKenzie of Carnmoney, Co. > Antrim and b. 1698, a Rev. John McKenzie (Presbytr. pastor 1673-1696 CoI ?) > appeared in Cookstown, Tyrone. In the 1700's, Ire was relatively peaceful > until > the 1798 Rebellion which brought economic restrictions and less immigration. > In 1718, the first wave of Ulster Scots emigrated to America. Also, > Presbyt. & > Catholic restrictions were starting to be lifted. > > IRE APPLOMT. TITHES -ANTRIM/DERRY - 1831 - Mc PROT./CATH.-03 / 06 > > By the 19th century in 1830"s there were substantial presence of > Catholic > Mc surnames in NI. Upon surveying some of the Antrim / Derry 1830's NI > Applotments Tithes records, it is apparent that Mc surnames are > approximately > 24 % Catholic. The 76 % Protestant are largely Presbyterian. Of the Mc's, > none > were McKenzie and one was a McKinny. This is expected since US records > indicate that my family were poor farmers in Ire and 3 adult males were > unemployed in the 1900 census. There were 57 % Mc's families with the > identical > surname that were split e.g. 67 % or 50 % or 33 % Catholic vs. Protestant. > Families remaining all Protestant represented 43 % of the Mc's. It is > interesting to > note, that all the Miller's were Protestant. The O'Neil's were 17% > Catholic. As > expected, there were no primarily So. Ire Madden, Cassidy, Sullivan or > Sheehan > etc. Via the Tithes, the first apparent Catholic McKenzie in Ire, a John > McKenzie > b.c 1783 in Sligo followed by a John McKenzie b.c. 1824 in Quinn, Co. Clare. > In the Ire 1831 Aghadowey, Derry census, 1 Daniel McKensey is > listed. Via > Griffiths records, one Daniel McKenzie (DM) has been identified in each Cos. > Derry > (Magherafelt, Leckagh), Tyrone (Donaghmore, Mullaughmore), Mayo > (Crossmolina) > & Fermanagh (Derrybrusk, Ballyreagh). Other Fermanagh McKenzie family > Derryvullan Irvinestown & Tempo. One DM listed in Co. Antrim 1842 Belfast > directory as a pub owner living at Donegal Quay. No DM's found in Tithes > and the > surname McKenzie were Tyrone 30, Antrim 7, Down 2 & Derry 1. Dual surname > (McKenzie / Miller) are as follows : Tyrone 18, Belfast 12, Derry 9, Antrim > 8, Sligo 4, > Down 3, Dublin 3 with 1 each in Fermanagh, Monahan, Laois. Via LDS IGI, one > DM each identified in Cos. Donegal, Sligo, Kerry & Limerick. A total of 7 > documented DM's in all and as expected all in No. Ire with 4 in Ulster. > There are > probably a few more DM's, just too poor to be listed on any records. From > 1875 to > 1908 in the US there is no given name pattern in my McKenzie line that > follow Scot or Ire naming pattern. > The bad news is ... some will say that one can not trace / find > common or > average people before 1820. Maybe true for Catholics but, the good news is > that > this is not true, particularly for Protestants. Protestants are far more > likely to be > named in some unusual records that they did manage to keep in Ireland before > church records. One needs to learn how to find and use these records. First, > you > need to already have some info on your ancestor. Surnames do not only > originated > in one place and migrate from there. This is especially true with Me > surnames. > Secondly, for pre-1860 records, particularly Catholic, one needs to depend > heavily > on the net and genealogy list, & individuals interaction / interchange, as > well as, > baptismal records to obtain very difficult brickwall 18th - 19th century > data. The > best path is via brickwall roll call summaries with key individuals, > surnames, > places of origin, religion(s), dates with postings at regular intervals. > Religion > Suggest Protestant Suggest Catholic > ------------------------- > ----------------------- > o McKenzie surname more likely o Daniel's c. 1846 m., not listed > as > Protestant of Scot. origin. Protestant at > GRONI. > o Miller surname more likely o John b. Aug.1848 of Ire, m. > Katie > Protestant of German, English Madden of Ire (single > boarder) via a > origin. Cath. > Mass less than 2 yrs > after > > arriving in Boston. > o James > b.c. 1848-52 of Ire, > m. Mary > > Cassidy of Ire (single > boarder) via > > Cath. Mass 1874 in Eng. > o All 6 US > b. McKenzie's > 1875-1908 > as > well as all 1908-2002 > were b., m. > & d. > in Cath. Church and > utilized > > Cath. Homes for children > & elderly > > during early 1900's. > o George > b. c. 1887 Eng, m. US > Cath. > > Mass 1908 less than 1 > yr. after > > arriving in Boston. > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.5/302 - Release Date: 4/5/2006 > >