Hi Marilyn, In the 1820s in Ireland (or anywhere in the UK) there was no separation of church and state. The established church, as it had done in the days when it was Catholic, as it continued to due after the Reformation(s) (ie the one imposed by Henry VIII in England and Ireland and the one begun in Scotland by John Knox). Poor and sick people needed to be fed and cared for. Roads needed maintained. Petty court cases needed to be heard. The blasphemous, the adulterers, and other immoral types had to be dealt with lest God hold the whole nation responsible as it went merrily on its way to H*** and He did something like let the Spanish or the French invade. Plus you had to raise money to support all this. And you had to probate wills. The church was already doing these things okay through the parish system. So in 1820 everyone paid tithes to the established church to not only feed the Vicar's fat cat and refinish the chapel, but also to feed the poor and the sick, etc. As time has passed modernism eroded away at the importance of the parish (and the church) so that by 1820 the whole system was a pale shadow of its medieval self. The big problem was Ireland where the majority of peop;le were not established church members and greatly resented having to help feed the Vicar's cat or even himself for that matter. There are various stories of vicars in Ulster where the only being to show up at his Sunday sermon was his cat. The Catholics were at the Mass Rock and the Presbyterians were off in a field or a barn. Obviously the very poor didn't tithe. They were the recipients of tithes. It was basically a land tax so if your ancestors were servants they aren't on it. Also the church owned a lot of real estate. It's tenants had already paid their tithes as rent. For more details you can see pp 264 and on in "Discovering your Irish Ancestors". You can google and find more too. It's not just a matter of what's "IN" them but how you use them. If you know your ancestors were somewhere and they aren't in them, it suggests a number of things, for example. Radford and Betitt point out (p. 265) that not even every land occupier was in them, just those who had to pay tithe. cottiers and farm servants, no. Sometimes a single person was the designated tithe payer so others aren't named. In one study in County Cavan, it was found that 35 percent of the people in the parish were named in it. Back on the 'it's not a matter of what's in them but how you can use them, they can be used to study surname distribution in Ireland. This is very useful because it is Pre Famine. Griffiths is not. The book I have mentioned gives a study of a case where the info is not straightforward. Very useful for peopel who think it is a matter of a lookup. LDS has a great guide on them. I have personally found that every time I use it I need to reread this and to do some thinking. This was truer before we had the modern indexes but the modern indexes (on CD) have large errors. Best of luck!! Linda Merle -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Marilyn Otterson" <rosiedoggie@verizon.net> > Hi, > Can somebody tell me exactly what the tithe applotment books, 1828-1838 can > tell us...I mean, they show names and townlands, but is it for church > tithing or what? > > Thanks, > Marilyn >

Hi Linda! It's been a long time since we chatted. I wonder would there be a tithe applotmant book around the time of my 8X g-grandfather Francis HOBSON and of Valentine HOLLINGSWORTH, in the early 17th c? As you know, Francis was tried convicted and jailed for not paying tithe and Valentine had his crops regularly raided by the King's tax collectors. I am always looking for additional details about the death of my 8X g-grandfather. Thank you Forrest Plumstead fplum1@gmail.com Researching the following Surnames: Bushouse, Plumstead, Risser, Schroeder, Senne, Thayer, Quaker Families: Coppock, Heald, Hobson, Hollingsworth, Potts, Ross, Watt Plumstead and Associated Families: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fplum/ Military Kool Lynx: http://geocities.com/fplum/ Ham Radio WB5HQO http://forrest.3h.com/main.html ----- Original Message ----- From: <lmerle@comcast.net> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] tithe applotment books > Hi Marilyn, > > In the 1820s in Ireland (or anywhere in the UK) there was no separation of > church and state. The established church, as it had done in the days when > it was Catholic, as it continued to due after the Reformation(s) (ie the > one imposed by Henry VIII in England and Ireland and the one begun in > Scotland by John Knox). Poor and sick people needed to be fed and cared > for. Roads needed maintained. Petty court cases needed to be heard. The > blasphemous, the adulterers, and other immoral types had to be dealt with > lest God hold the whole nation responsible as it went merrily on its way > to H*** and He did something like let the Spanish or the French invade. > Plus you had to raise money to support all this. And you had to probate > wills. The church was already doing these things okay through the parish > system. > > So in 1820 everyone paid tithes to the established church to not only feed > the Vicar's fat cat and refinish the chapel, but also to feed the poor and > the sick, etc. > As time has passed modernism eroded away at the importance of the parish > (and the church) so that by 1820 the whole system was a pale shadow of its > medieval self. The big problem was Ireland where the majority of peop;le > were not established church members and greatly resented having to help > feed the Vicar's cat or even himself for that matter. There are various > stories of vicars > in Ulster where the only being to show up at his Sunday sermon was his > cat. > The Catholics were at the Mass Rock and the Presbyterians were off in a > field > or a barn. > > Obviously the very poor didn't tithe. They were the recipients of tithes. > It was basically a land tax so if your ancestors were servants they aren't > on it. Also the church owned a lot of real estate. It's tenants had > already paid their tithes as rent. > > For more details you can see pp 264 and on in "Discovering your Irish > Ancestors". You can google and find more too. > > It's not just a matter of what's "IN" them but how you use them. If you > know your ancestors were somewhere and they aren't in them, it suggests a > number of things, for example. > > Radford and Betitt point out (p. 265) that not even every land occupier > was in them, just those who had to pay tithe. cottiers and farm servants, > no. Sometimes a single person was the designated tithe payer so others > aren't named. In one study in County Cavan, it was found that 35 percent > of the people in the parish were named in it. > > Back on the 'it's not a matter of what's in them but how you can use them, > they can be used to study surname distribution in Ireland. This is very > useful because it is Pre Famine. Griffiths is not. > > The book I have mentioned gives a study of a case where the info is not > straightforward. Very useful for peopel who think it is a matter of a > lookup. > > LDS has a great guide on them. I have personally found that every time I > use it I need to reread this and to do some thinking. This was truer > before we had the modern indexes but the modern indexes (on CD) have large > errors. > > Best of luck!! > > Linda Merle > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Marilyn Otterson" <rosiedoggie@verizon.net> > >> Hi, >> Can somebody tell me exactly what the tithe applotment books, 1828-1838 >> can >> tell us...I mean, they show names and townlands, but is it for church >> tithing or what? >> >> Thanks, >> Marilyn >> >