Hi Brian, thanks for the Denization records. I might further add that while in the USA, we're (almost) all citizens with the right to vote, in Ireland and the rest of our favorite island chain, voting was restricted. The distribution of land was feudal -- like our American colonies. Ie it was granted out by the king who 'owned' it all. Then that individual, who of course owed his status as land holder to the king, granted it out to others. Then in turn sublet again. Finally you got down to the people who actually lived on the land who didn't own any of it. Tenants. Who got to vote varied over time, but it was always landlords who held land valued over a certain amount (which varied) for a very long time. Ie land could be granted for a year or lifetime or in perpetuity. As these grants for major landlords were made from the king, you look for them in the records of the royal court(s) (Irish and English). The Calendar of Patent Rolls is an index to these. They are called 'rolls' because they were large hides that were 'rolled up'. However the disappointment is that only major parties required denization so the mass of our Scottish, English, Welsh, etc, ancestors, coming over as tenants, aren't on them. Their landlord is and of course IDing the landlord is KEY in Irish genealogy as you can then research his family and locate his records and where he came from in Scotland. Landlords brought over tenants they knew: their own Scottish tenants or tenants of their relatives and neighbors. So finding out the name of the estate the ancsetor lived on is KEY to locating his origins. Doesn't always work of course!! The exception to 'poor people weren't on the denization lists' is non British (Scottish/Welsh, Irish/English: we hope to not step on too many toes here <grin) subjects. Many Protestants fled France throughout the 1500s and 1600s (repetitively as laws changed in France I have read), and they had to receive denization to remain. Ditto with the exiles and victims of the various European wars of the time from Holland and the Germanies. Some of these folk settled in England. It filled up so then they were settled in Ireland. The bible of Irish genealogy Falley "IRish and Scotch Irish Family History" has chapters on the history of all these people as well as the denization of Scottish undertakers in the early 1600s. It'll point you to sources. As the book was written in the 1960s, the sources may have changed location, been published or filmed or burnt onto CDs and/or scanned and OCRed into Ancestry. So some of these books are a lot more accessible than they were in the 1960s. Also you should check the archives of this list. A couple years ago I put in them the names of all the surviving early deeds of the Earl of Antrim. They had been published in an article in a periodical. Can't recall the year.....I gotta get caught up and update the webpages with links to the good stuff. I might also add that for those who are researching the surnames that appear constantly below many are inlaws and relatives of families who first settled Antrim and Down. Their stories, republished from contemporary sources like the Montgomery Papers, are republished in Hanna "The Scotch Irish". An understanding of their family ties is KEY. One client of mine had SHAW -- possibly from Down (Manifested near Charleston in a settlement of Ulster Presbyterians who came from Down: the Witherspoons and Bradleys, etc). Anyhow, there was a prominant SHAW family, inlaws of the Montgomeries. If you can make a connection to one of these families you can trace them back to Scotland. What is KEY is reading a lot of history about these primary families. To begin that, read Hanna "The Scotch-Irish". It's been said that the key to Irish genealogy is local history, local history, and local history. You will make no progress searching for a baptism of a guy born in 1704 in Ulster unless he was baptized in Templemore (Derry Cathedral) though there are exceptions to every rule. To see what does survive, check a book like Ryan "Irish records" that ids all known existent church records. Happy Hunting!!! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Brian Orr" <brian@orrnamestudy.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 11:19:35 +0100 > Hi Folks > >I though I had better explain denization, which is simply the granting a person the rights of citizenship, this was done by a letter patent signed by the King. Knowing of your keen desire for names, below is a list of Scots who were granted denizenship in 1617 . Extracted from the Montgomery Manuscripts and the Calendar of Patent Rolls. > >Be lucky. > >Brian Orr > > Gilbert Adare of Ardehine Uthred M'Dowgall of Ballimaconnell > Andrew Agnewe of Carnie David M`Illveyne of Ballelogan > Thomas Agnew of Grayabbey > James McMakene of Donaghdie > John Aickin of Donaghdie John Marten of Dunnevilly > Patrick Allan of Ballydonane J ames Maxwell of Gransho > David Anderson of Castlecanvarie John Maxwell of Ballihalbert > John Barkley of Ballyrolly > Hugh Montgomery of Granshaghe > Robert Boyle of Drumfad John Montgomery of Ballymacrosse > David Boyde of Glasroche > John Montgomery of the Redene > Thomas Boyde of Crownerston Matthew Montgomery of Donoghdie > Nynnan Bracklie,Newton of Donghadie Patrick Montgomerie of Ballycreboy > William Caderwood of Ballyfrenzeis > William Montgomery of Donoghdie > James Cathcart of Ballirogane Robert Montgomery of Donoghdie > Claud.Conyngham of Donoghdie Hector Moore of Donan > James Cowper of Ballichosta John Moore of Donaghdie > Michael Craig of the Redene Quintene Moore of Aughneill > William Crawford of Cuningburn William Moore of Milntowne > John Cuningham of Rinchrivie William Moore preacher at Newton > David Cunyngham of Drumfad John Mowlen of Crownerston > Hugh Cunyngham of Castlespick Thomas Nevin of Ballicopland > William Cuninghame of Donoghdie John Peacocke of Ballidonan > Charles Domelston of Proveston Andrew Sempill of Ballygrenie > John Fraser of Donaghdie Patrick Shaw of Balliwalter > John Harper of Ballyhay William Shaw of Ballykilconan > John Harperof Donaghdie Alexander Speire of Gray Abbey. > Robert Harper of Provostoun John Thompson of Blackabbey > Thomas Harvie of Newton Robert Wilson of Newtowne > William Hunter of Donan James Williamson of Clay > Thomas Kelso of Ballyhacamore Allen Wilson of Newton > David Kennedy of Gortivillan John Wyly of Ballyhay > Walter Logane of Proveston > William Wymis of Newtowne > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net