Hi Charles, In my role as 'bouncer' on this list, I did indeed remove a certain man from this list years ago. Whenever anyone gets out of line and I deal with the problem I'm to blame, just as when I don't deal with the problem I'm to blame <grin>. This is a thankless job and you'd better hope that I don't point the business end of the canon at you (making you admin) and abscond for parts unknown <grin>!! Your life will then take on mythic proportions. I don't know if your infamy/fame (in this job you learn these are the same <grin>!) will rival that of some of your rellies, but it might!! So be nice to me.....I got the list password and your email address <grin>. As a result of Brian's attack on the list a number of people both on and off this list on both sides of the pond endured some misery and I got a funny story to tell over and over till its unrecognizable <grin>. Anywho....anyone researching these folks might want to check out the sister list: http://orangeroots.tripod.com/intro.html >So I suppose it would be stopping an old fight rather than starting a new one? I donno, I am one for respecting borders. As I recall we got one (down the middle of a few buildings up there in Maine, I hear!), and our northern cousins have not wanted to be called "Scotch Irish", so I at least respect that. (I'm not sure I want to be called that either but it does sound better than a few things I've been called, so....) The tiff (is that the word??) goes way back in history to at least the 1780s and 1790s when the Protestants (though few would have then called them that, except the Catholics: the Anglicans and the Presbyterians/Methodists/Baptists/ Quakers/Mennonites, etc were quite different in social class, speaking broadly)....were themselves split. That was the time of the misnamed "United Irish" movement (they weren't united at all). So back then you had the Orange Order coming into being, loyal to the Crown, and fighting in the true Irish style their brethern in the streets and fields, the so-called United Irishmen. The United Irishmen, having been so ununited that they all informed on one another before the battles and thus lost them since all the leadership was already in jail, had to flee though many died before they could. Many came to the USA. Why they didn't go to Canada is clear! Here their pressed their agenda and won, helping to defeat the Federalists. Or so said a book I read, a very engaging book that I've packed away alas. The folk feeling loyal to the Crown who were leaving went to Canada. So even before we left Ireland we were an un-united people. If we don't seem too close from the perspective of New Zealand, that's cause we've not been close for over 200 years. We've grown apart. However often we grow together (usually this even occurs in Detroit <grin>), which is why I am working on this one family who drifted into Detroit and married not only Americans but over the Irish religious divide too into an Irish Catholic family previously in Scotland for part of a generation. As they had several children in Scotland before splitting for the rebel-lands of America, they weren't hard to trace....unlike this obscure Canuckian who came way to early to suit my taste! It's good the maple-ly cousins got a list of their own. As long as we are polite (or apologize afterwards), all (or most) are welcome here. I recall as a child being terrified of the Orange Order as our oral history is that we left (probably KELLYs from County Down) "Because the Catholics abandoned us and the Protestants betrayed us". We all figured the Orange Order was waiting at the airplane gate for our return to finish the business. We knew the government had forgotten we existed but being Irish, the men of the OO probably hadn't!! WHile I've studied enough history and met enough people to overcome my childhood boogiemen, some haven't. So organizations that are iconic in Canada play a different role south of border. Just a part of our history. If my mother had known Ontario was full of Orangemen we'd have never taken that risky vacation to Niagra Falls <grin>. Mentioning the OO on this list is kinda like mentioning the K-word that I won't mention -- it draws some nasty flies like them no-see-ums we got in northern Mass and so on into Canada. Or maybe I'm just paranoid ... I mean, most of my ancestors were Irish so if I wasn't paranoid, I wouldn't be normal, eh??? However we're in total agreement that the OO has LOTS of history, not on in Canada but in Ireland as well and I now count some Orangemen among my friends. (So they might let me in the library in Belfast <grin>). Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net