----- Original Message ----- From: "Gill Smith" <gilliandavies@lineone.net> To: "Loudene Tollar" <ludiekt@juno.com> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing Hi it's Gill again Obviously I didn't have the thread of your original question Kirk is a fairly popular name in Dumfrieshire and Galloway ,Ayrshire and Renfrewshire There was alot of movement between the southern areas of Scotland and Dumfries and Galloway around the sixteenth century onwards because of the political situation between England (and Wales) and Scotland and then the Plantation of Ulster You probably know all this When Henry V111 defeated James 1V at Flodden the situation was unsettled After James V's defeat at Hadden Rig, Berwickshire the following 'rough wooing' drove alot of people out of southern Scotland. and some went to Ireland Following this James V1( 1 st of England) merged the two crowns placing further religious and political pressures on the population of southern Scotland - this in turn led to further movement to Ireland by southern Scots The settlement of Ireland increased with the land - letting on their estayes by Sir James Hamilton and Hugh Montgomery immediately prior to the Ulster Plantation. Many of the Planters were from Ayrshire, Wigton,Dumfrieshire and Kirkcudbrighshire. Many settled the 'lower' half of Antrim. There had been Scottish influence there further north back in the 1500's. This pattern fits the 'Protestant route ' It's possible that your ancestors (if originating in Scotland) sailed from Portpatrick (the main port in mid C17) which was later linked to Dumfries by a military road improving the communication network. across the land. The military road network improved cross country access after c 1724 Port Patrick was a very important port during the Ulster Plantations, developing throughout the C18 as the main port for Scottish - Irish trade in livestock which was then walked over land to the markets at Dumfries and further afield. Historically there was rivalry between Larne and Donsghdee which had strong shipping links with Portpatrick back in the early 1600's. The first documented mention is c 1616 http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~leighann/county/travel.html gives a bit about "Ower the Sheuch" Travel between Scotland and Ireland on the Wigtownshire Pages and is worth a look. The Stewartry Museum in Kircudbrighshire would also help Depending on when they moved to Ireland- There's no particular reason why the would sail from the Campbeltown area with a busy, main port at Portpatrick I'm interested in the subject as some of my ancestors were Master Mariners who lived in and sailed out of Kirkcudbrigh. I also have Irish ancestry North and South I lived a long time in Scotland and know all the areas mentioned well. From the 1400s Kircudbrighshire was important for overseas trade . Over a quarter of Scotland's cloth exports were loaded at the quays on the River Dee and traded over great distances. The harbour developing later Carsethorn (near Kirkbean), Dumfries was first mentioned as a port in 1562. There was heavy trade from here to England, abroad and to Ireland - it's a possibiltiy that they sailed from here (as did John Paul Jones in 1760) if they were from the area around Dumfries.. Hope this helps a bit more on the where they might have sailed from Scotland theme Gill in North Wales (with views of Ireland on a good day) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loudene Tollar" <ludiekt@juno.com> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:05 PM > Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing > > >> Yes, thank you, Edward. You've given me a lot of good information that >> answers many of my questions and gives me more. Assuming my Kirks came >> from Scotland at some time to County Antrim, the question this is where >> did they come from and how did they get there. I can see by the map >> there's not much on the peninsula in the Mull of Kintyre region, maybe >> it's very rocky and not a good farming area. So in the 1600-1700s would >> the travelers between Antrim and Scotland mostly have taken one of the >> major routes and then traveled overland to their destination. Like you >> said, areas of Scotland weren't/aren't easy to travel overland. >> >> I've been to the Antrim coast. Those cliffs are high enough for me. >> Unless it was densely forested, it seems like travel in Antrim would >> have been easier to travel around. >> >> My Kirks were Protestant, so that doesn't fit with the Catholic movement >> between the two countries. >> >> It is all very interesting. For instance with the iron ore I wonder if >> the soil in certain areas is as red as the areas of eastern Texas that >> have high iron ore content. Which east Texas has a high Scotch-Irish >> settlement though many descendants today don't know. >> >> Thanks again, Edward. Ludie >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Edward Andrews >> To: 'Loudene Tollar' ; Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:50 AM >> Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing >> >> >> You are not quite clear about what you are asking, so I will give a >> slightly long winded answer. >> Historically, despite its dangers - strong currents and being open to the >> Atlantic the North Channel has always been a very important highway >> between >> Scotland and Ireland. >> These currents and tide rips are important in that they did have effects >> on >> where ships could easily land >> For practical purposes we can divide the coast of Ulster up it up into >> several areas. From Malin Head to Fair Head, From Fair Head to Black >> Head, >> from Black Head to Ballyquinten Point, and from Ballyquinten Point south, >> (including Strangford Lough). >> While the Ulster coast can be neatly divided up the Scottish Coast is >> more >> difficult. There is the area to the north of the Mull of Kintyre, From >> the >> Mull of Kintyre to Carsewell Point and from Carsewell point south. >> On the Ulster side there is limited fishing, but this has traditionally >> been at its most productive in County Down. >> The Antrim coast is backed by a raised beach (I think it is the 10M one) >> which is broken by short rivers which flow down from the Antrim Plateau. >> The >> Plateau, while it is not very high is fronted on the sea side by cliffs >> which are only penetrated by the River Valleys. >> The two main roads which serve the coast run from Ballymena to >> Glenariff/Cushendall, and to Carnlough/Glenarm. Cushendun is a river >> mouth, >> which only provides shelter for a few small boats >> The whole North Antrim area has very strong cultural links with the >> Scottish coast. These links are Gaelic rather than plantation, and the >> Glens >> (the nine Glens of Antrim) are distinct from the rest of Antrim in that >> there is a much higher proportion of Roman Catholics there than in the >> rest >> of Antrim. They are very different indeed from the Lowland Scots of the >> plantation of Antrim. Gaelic was spoken until the early 20th Century. >> While I have chosen Fair Head as one of the arbitrary divisions of the >> coast, culturally Ballycastle is part of this community. It is the home >> town >> of Keith Cardinal O'Brian the Archbishop of Edinburgh and head of the >> Roman >> Catholic Church in Scotland. >> When I worked in Islay not only could you see the Antrim Coast, people >> went >> over for the Lammas Fair in Ballycastle. There has historically always >> been >> coming and going across the Ditch. >> However, transport is a function of the economy, and both Campbeltown and >> the Glens were primary producers. Ballycastle had a small coal mine, >> which >> only met local demand. (eighteenth century attempts at encouraging >> industry >> were not particularly successful and the harbour silted up and is now the >> town tennis court). Carnlough was important for its export of Limestone >> as >> was Glenarm. There was also Iron ore, as well as bauxite on the plateau. >> However this was generally exploited by narrow gage railway to Ballymena >> and >> then to Larne, it was not important for the Antrim Coast. There is a >> picture >> in the Lawrence Collection of an iron ore jetty near Fair Head. >> Campbeltown is a plantation town founded by James VI to bring the >> advantages of civilization to the Highlands. We believe that my ancestors >> went there from Maybole there in the 17th Century, before going to >> Ulster. >> However until well into the 20th Century when there were road >> improvements >> the whole of the Kintyre area was only served by sea. The development of >> car >> ferries in Scotland rather than passenger ferries meant that there was a >> demand for a car ferry to Ireland. >> It was only in the late 1960s / early 1970s that this ferry service was >> set up between Campbeltown and Red Bay by Western Ferries. While this was >> commercially a success, because of the security situation it was not >> possible to continue it. >> Western Ferries also had a Catamaran running on the Scotland (I can't >> remember where,) Portrush / Moville route >> In the 1990s a ferry was set up between Campbeltown and Ballycastle. >> However rather than being run by Cal-Mac the state run coastal shipping >> line >> (who run the Ballycastle / Rathlin service, it was run by a private >> company >> to whom Cal-mac had to sell a ship. This was a great rip-off and the >> service >> only and fro a few years. There are continued attempts to get a ferry >> running. However while the routes to Stranrear (and the south shore of >> the >> Clyde Estuary are extremely busy, Campbeltown is 140 miles from Glasgow >> over >> roads which are at times indifferent. >> In brief, historically there were ad hoc travel arrangements between the >> Antrim Coast and Scotland. These did not long last the introduction of >> Steam >> which tended to concentrate shipping in the larger ports. Attempts in the >> past 30 years to run a service have failed for one reason or another. >> Edward Andrews >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Loudene Tollar [mailto:ludiekt@juno.com] >> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:16 AM >> To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing >> >> Edward, I'm curious about the crossing between the area of Cushendun on >> the >> Irish coast and the peninsula of Campbelltown on Scotland's side. As >> that >> is such a short distance has it been used much for crossing in years past >> or >> >> is there a reason it wouldn't be? >> >> Ludie, freezing in Texas! >> >