No idea. I know a wee bit about this side of the pond. Nothing about the other side Edward Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Charles A Wyly [mailto:wyly1@juno.com] Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:56 PM To: edward.andrews@btinternet.com Cc: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing Hi, Who were the Kennedys of Ireland who controlled ships , some with slaves from Africa to New Orleans?- 17---1800's. Was this the same as the Pres. Kennedy's ancestors? And, according to New Orleans records, the slave auction block in New Orleans was a giant free Black man named King. Hill College Historians in Hillsboro , Texas say that Martin Luther King was a descendant of this King in New Orleans. Charles A.Wyly On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 22:25:44 -0000 "Edward Andrews" <edward.andrews@btinternet.com> writes: > It is very important that we remember that the vast majority of the > Scottish > settlers were lowlanders. (This is not to say that there were no > highlanders, just that the majority were from the lowlands and the > Borders > and they would have come from the South Clyde or the Solway. > Campbeltown is a bit of a red herring as it is Highland with > Lowland > settlers.(Historically there were two Church of Scotland Churches > in > Campbeltown, Highland and Lowland. (a bit like Ulster). > Always remember it is easier to sail than walk. I'm going to > Ireland later > next week and if I could I'd take a ferry from Troon rather than > drive the > A77 to Stranrear. > The whole Ards Peninsula is thick with wee harbours, and there were > a lot > of wee ships owned down there. Remember that in almost living > memory > schooners traded between large parts of the County Down coast and > Belfast as > the Railway only went to Donaghadee in the Ards, and then to > Downpatrick and > Newcastle (the junction was Newtownards). Antrim as much more > limited by the > Plateau edge. I don't know about the ports of county /Derry. Once > you get > round to Donegal and points west and south again there are lots of > wee ports > and that was where the labourers came from. > As I said before the whole coastal trade is a very specialised area > of > History. I know a wee bit about late 19th Century and then 20th > Century > which was really the =demise of Sail and the heyday of steam. In the > 1940s > it was puffers which took the Limestone from Antrim. By the 1960s it > was > Dutch - the Hans traded out of Carnlough. > Edward Andrews > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gill Smith [mailto:gilliandavies@lineone.net] > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:59 PM > To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Fw: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gill Smith" <gilliandavies@lineone.net> > To: "Loudene Tollar" <ludiekt@juno.com> > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:13 PM > Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing > > > Hi it's Gill again > > Obviously I didn't have the thread of your original question > > Kirk is a fairly popular name in Dumfrieshire and Galloway > ,Ayrshire and > Renfrewshire > > There was alot of movement between the southern areas of Scotland > and > Dumfries and Galloway around the sixteenth century onwards because > of the > political situation between England (and Wales) and Scotland and > then the > Plantation of Ulster > > You probably know all this > > When Henry V111 defeated James 1V at Flodden the situation was > unsettled > After James V's defeat at Hadden Rig, Berwickshire the following > 'rough > wooing' drove alot of people out of southern Scotland. and some > went to > Ireland > > Following this James V1( 1 st of England) merged the two crowns > placing > further religious and political pressures on the population of > southern > Scotland - this in turn led to further movement to Ireland by > southern > Scots > > The settlement of Ireland increased with the land - letting on > their > estayes > by Sir James Hamilton and Hugh Montgomery immediately prior to the > Ulster > Plantation. Many of the Planters were from Ayrshire, > Wigton,Dumfrieshire > and > Kirkcudbrighshire. > > Many settled the 'lower' half of Antrim. There had been Scottish > influence > there further north back in the 1500's. This pattern fits the > 'Protestant > route ' > > It's possible that your ancestors (if originating in Scotland) > sailed from > Portpatrick (the main port in mid C17) which was later linked to > Dumfries > by > a military road improving the communication network. across the > land. > The military road network improved cross country access after c > 1724 > > Port Patrick was a very important port during the Ulster > Plantations, > developing throughout the C18 as the main port for Scottish - Irish > trade > in > livestock which was then walked over land to the markets at > Dumfries and > further afield. > > Historically there was rivalry between Larne and Donsghdee which > had strong > shipping links with Portpatrick back in the early 1600's. The > first > documented mention is c 1616 > http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~leighann/county/travel.html > > gives a bit about "Ower the Sheuch" Travel between Scotland and > Ireland on > the Wigtownshire Pages and is worth a look. > > The Stewartry Museum in Kircudbrighshire would also help > > Depending on when they moved to Ireland- > There's no particular reason why the would sail from the > Campbeltown area > with a busy, main port at Portpatrick > > I'm interested in the subject as some of my ancestors were Master > > Mariners > who lived in and sailed out of Kirkcudbrigh. I also have Irish > ancestry > North and South I lived a long time in Scotland and know all the > areas > mentioned well. > > From the 1400s Kircudbrighshire was important for overseas trade > . > Over a quarter of Scotland's cloth exports were loaded at the > quays on the > River Dee and traded over great distances. The harbour developing > later > > Carsethorn (near Kirkbean), Dumfries was first mentioned as a port > in 1562. > There was heavy trade from here to England, abroad and to Ireland - > it's a > possibiltiy that they sailed from here (as did John Paul Jones in > 1760) if > they were from the area around Dumfries.. > > Hope this helps a bit more on the where they might have sailed from > > Scotland theme > > Gill in North Wales (with views of Ireland on a good day) > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Loudene Tollar" <ludiekt@juno.com> > To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:05 PM > > Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing > > > > > >> Yes, thank you, Edward. You've given me a lot of good > information that > >> answers many of my questions and gives me more. Assuming my > Kirks came > >> from Scotland at some time to County Antrim, the question this is > where > >> did they come from and how did they get there. I can see by the > map > >> there's not much on the peninsula in the Mull of Kintyre region, > maybe > >> it's very rocky and not a good farming area. So in the 1600-1700s > would > >> the travelers between Antrim and Scotland mostly have taken one > of the > >> major routes and then traveled overland to their destination. > Like you > >> said, areas of Scotland weren't/aren't easy to travel overland. > >> > >> I've been to the Antrim coast. Those cliffs are high enough for > me. > >> Unless it was densely forested, it seems like travel in Antrim > would > >> have been easier to travel around. > >> > >> My Kirks were Protestant, so that doesn't fit with the Catholic > movement > >> between the two countries. > >> > >> It is all very interesting. For instance with the iron ore I > wonder if > >> the soil in certain areas is as red as the areas of eastern Texas > that > >> have high iron ore content. Which east Texas has a high > Scotch-Irish > >> settlement though many descendants today don't know. > >> > >> Thanks again, Edward. Ludie > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Edward Andrews > >> To: 'Loudene Tollar' ; Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com > >> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:50 AM > >> Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing > >> > >> > >> You are not quite clear about what you are asking, so I will give > a > >> slightly long winded answer. > >> Historically, despite its dangers - strong currents and being > open to the > >> Atlantic the North Channel has always been a very important > highway > >> between > >> Scotland and Ireland. > >> These currents and tide rips are important in that they did have > effects > >> on > >> where ships could easily land > >> For practical purposes we can divide the coast of Ulster up it up > into > >> several areas. From Malin Head to Fair Head, From Fair Head to > Black > >> Head, > >> from Black Head to Ballyquinten Point, and from Ballyquinten > Point south, > >> (including Strangford Lough). > >> While the Ulster coast can be neatly divided up the Scottish > Coast is > >> more > >> difficult. There is the area to the north of the Mull of Kintyre, > From > >> the > >> Mull of Kintyre to Carsewell Point and from Carsewell point > south. > >> On the Ulster side there is limited fishing, but this has > traditionally > >> been at its most productive in County Down. > >> The Antrim coast is backed by a raised beach (I think it is the > 10M one) > >> which is broken by short rivers which flow down from the Antrim > Plateau. > >> The > >> Plateau, while it is not very high is fronted on the sea side by > cliffs > >> which are only penetrated by the River Valleys. > >> The two main roads which serve the coast run from Ballymena to > >> Glenariff/Cushendall, and to Carnlough/Glenarm. Cushendun is a > river > >> mouth, > >> which only provides shelter for a few small boats > >> The whole North Antrim area has very strong cultural links with > the > >> Scottish coast. These links are Gaelic rather than plantation, > and the > >> Glens > >> (the nine Glens of Antrim) are distinct from the rest of Antrim > in that > >> there is a much higher proportion of Roman Catholics there than > in the > >> rest > >> of Antrim. They are very different indeed from the Lowland Scots > of the > >> plantation of Antrim. Gaelic was spoken until the early 20th > Century. > >> While I have chosen Fair Head as one of the arbitrary divisions > of the > >> coast, culturally Ballycastle is part of this community. It is > the home > >> town > >> of Keith Cardinal O'Brian the Archbishop of Edinburgh and head of > the > >> Roman > >> Catholic Church in Scotland. > >> When I worked in Islay not only could you see the Antrim Coast, > people > >> went > >> over for the Lammas Fair in Ballycastle. There has historically > always > >> been > >> coming and going across the Ditch. > >> However, transport is a function of the economy, and both > Campbeltown and > >> the Glens were primary producers. Ballycastle had a small coal > mine, > >> which > >> only met local demand. (eighteenth century attempts at > encouraging > >> industry > >> were not particularly successful and the harbour silted up and is > now the > >> town tennis court). Carnlough was important for its export of > Limestone > >> as > >> was Glenarm. There was also Iron ore, as well as bauxite on the > plateau. > >> However this was generally exploited by narrow gage railway to > Ballymena > >> and > >> then to Larne, it was not important for the Antrim Coast. There > is a > >> picture > >> in the Lawrence Collection of an iron ore jetty near Fair Head. > >> Campbeltown is a plantation town founded by James VI to bring > the > >> advantages of civilization to the Highlands. We believe that my > ancestors > >> went there from Maybole there in the 17th Century, before going > to > >> Ulster. > >> However until well into the 20th Century when there were road > >> improvements > >> the whole of the Kintyre area was only served by sea. The > development of > >> car > >> ferries in Scotland rather than passenger ferries meant that > there was a > >> demand for a car ferry to Ireland. > >> It was only in the late 1960s / early 1970s that this ferry > service was > >> set up between Campbeltown and Red Bay by Western Ferries. While > this was > >> commercially a success, because of the security situation it was > not > >> possible to continue it. > >> Western Ferries also had a Catamaran running on the Scotland (I > can't > >> remember where,) Portrush / Moville route > >> In the 1990s a ferry was set up between Campbeltown and > Ballycastle. > >> However rather than being run by Cal-Mac the state run coastal > shipping > >> line > >> (who run the Ballycastle / Rathlin service, it was run by a > private > >> company > >> to whom Cal-mac had to sell a ship. This was a great rip-off and > the > >> service > >> only and fro a few years. There are continued attempts to get a > ferry > >> running. However while the routes to Stranrear (and the south > shore of > >> the > >> Clyde Estuary are extremely busy, Campbeltown is 140 miles from > Glasgow > >> over > >> roads which are at times indifferent. > >> In brief, historically there were ad hoc travel arrangements > between the > >> Antrim Coast and Scotland. These did not long last the > introduction of > >> Steam > >> which tended to concentrate shipping in the larger ports. > Attempts in the > >> past 30 years to run a service have failed for one reason or > another. > >> Edward Andrews > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Loudene Tollar [mailto:ludiekt@juno.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:16 AM > >> To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing > >> > >> Edward, I'm curious about the crossing between the area of > Cushendun on > >> the > >> Irish coast and the peninsula of Campbelltown on Scotland's side. > As > >> that > >> is such a short distance has it been used much for crossing in > years past > > >> or > >> > >> is there a reason it wouldn't be? > >> > >> Ludie, freezing in Texas! > >> > > > > > > >