----- Original Message ----- From: "Gill Smith" <gilliandavies@lineone.net> To: "Edward Andrews" <edward.andrews@btinternet.com> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing The sea is the link to communications not a barrier I agree with you about the area of coastal trade being a specialised subject I looked at it for a research degree some years ago - only for pre-historic trading links between Ireland,Wales and the West Coast of Scotland - evidence from monument types and artefact distribution ( including the stone axe trade) I won't go on as everyone will be comatose! I'm interested in the social history / communication network too. Strangely enough when I lived in Scotland I didn't sail to Ireland from there -all my trips are from Holyhead and that's another story! Do you live in Scotland? Indeed a complex one here! Cheers Gill > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edward Andrews" <edward.andrews@btinternet.com> > To: "'Gill Smith'" <gilliandavies@lineone.net>; > <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:25 PM > Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing > > >> It is very important that we remember that the vast majority of the >> Scottish >> settlers were lowlanders. (This is not to say that there were no >> highlanders, just that the majority were from the lowlands and the >> Borders >> and they would have come from the South Clyde or the Solway. >> Campbeltown is a bit of a red herring as it is Highland with Lowland >> settlers.(Historically there were two Church of Scotland Churches in >> Campbeltown, Highland and Lowland. (a bit like Ulster). >> Always remember it is easier to sail than walk. I'm going to Ireland >> later >> next week and if I could I'd take a ferry from Troon rather than drive >> the >> A77 to Stranrear. >> The whole Ards Peninsula is thick with wee harbours, and there were a lot >> of wee ships owned down there. Remember that in almost living memory >> schooners traded between large parts of the County Down coast and Belfast >> as >> the Railway only went to Donaghadee in the Ards, and then to Downpatrick >> and >> Newcastle (the junction was Newtownards). Antrim as much more limited by >> the >> Plateau edge. I don't know about the ports of county /Derry. Once you get >> round to Donegal and points west and south again there are lots of wee >> ports >> and that was where the labourers came from. >> As I said before the whole coastal trade is a very specialised area of >> History. I know a wee bit about late 19th Century and then 20th Century >> which was really the =demise of Sail and the heyday of steam. In the >> 1940s >> it was puffers which took the Limestone from Antrim. By the 1960s it was >> Dutch - the Hans traded out of Carnlough. >> Edward Andrews >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gill Smith [mailto:gilliandavies@lineone.net] >> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:59 PM >> To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Fw: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gill Smith" <gilliandavies@lineone.net> >> To: "Loudene Tollar" <ludiekt@juno.com> >> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing >> >> >> Hi it's Gill again >> >> Obviously I didn't have the thread of your original question >> >> Kirk is a fairly popular name in Dumfrieshire and Galloway ,Ayrshire and >> Renfrewshire >> >> There was alot of movement between the southern areas of Scotland and >> Dumfries and Galloway around the sixteenth century onwards because of the >> political situation between England (and Wales) and Scotland and then the >> Plantation of Ulster >> >> You probably know all this >> >> When Henry V111 defeated James 1V at Flodden the situation was unsettled >> After James V's defeat at Hadden Rig, Berwickshire the following 'rough >> wooing' drove alot of people out of southern Scotland. and some went to >> Ireland >> >> Following this James V1( 1 st of England) merged the two crowns placing >> further religious and political pressures on the population of southern >> Scotland - this in turn led to further movement to Ireland by southern >> Scots >> >> The settlement of Ireland increased with the land - letting on their >> estayes >> by Sir James Hamilton and Hugh Montgomery immediately prior to the Ulster >> Plantation. Many of the Planters were from Ayrshire, Wigton,Dumfrieshire >> and >> Kirkcudbrighshire. >> >> Many settled the 'lower' half of Antrim. There had been Scottish >> influence >> there further north back in the 1500's. This pattern fits the 'Protestant >> route ' >> >> It's possible that your ancestors (if originating in Scotland) sailed >> from >> Portpatrick (the main port in mid C17) which was later linked to Dumfries >> by >> a military road improving the communication network. across the land. >> The military road network improved cross country access after c 1724 >> >> Port Patrick was a very important port during the Ulster Plantations, >> developing throughout the C18 as the main port for Scottish - Irish trade >> in >> livestock which was then walked over land to the markets at Dumfries and >> further afield. >> >> Historically there was rivalry between Larne and Donsghdee which had >> strong >> shipping links with Portpatrick back in the early 1600's. The first >> documented mention is c 1616 >> http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~leighann/county/travel.html >> >> gives a bit about "Ower the Sheuch" Travel between Scotland and Ireland >> on >> the Wigtownshire Pages and is worth a look. >> >> The Stewartry Museum in Kircudbrighshire would also help >> >> Depending on when they moved to Ireland- >> There's no particular reason why the would sail from the Campbeltown area >> with a busy, main port at Portpatrick >> >> I'm interested in the subject as some of my ancestors were Master >> Mariners >> who lived in and sailed out of Kirkcudbrigh. I also have Irish ancestry >> North and South I lived a long time in Scotland and know all the areas >> mentioned well. >> >> From the 1400s Kircudbrighshire was important for overseas trade . >> Over a quarter of Scotland's cloth exports were loaded at the quays on >> the >> River Dee and traded over great distances. The harbour developing later >> >> Carsethorn (near Kirkbean), Dumfries was first mentioned as a port in >> 1562. >> There was heavy trade from here to England, abroad and to Ireland - it's >> a >> possibiltiy that they sailed from here (as did John Paul Jones in 1760) >> if >> they were from the area around Dumfries.. >> >> Hope this helps a bit more on the where they might have sailed from >> Scotland theme >> >> Gill in North Wales (with views of Ireland on a good day) >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Loudene Tollar" <ludiekt@juno.com> >> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:05 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing >>> >>> >>>> Yes, thank you, Edward. You've given me a lot of good information that >>>> answers many of my questions and gives me more. Assuming my Kirks came >>>> from Scotland at some time to County Antrim, the question this is where >>>> did they come from and how did they get there. I can see by the map >>>> there's not much on the peninsula in the Mull of Kintyre region, maybe >>>> it's very rocky and not a good farming area. So in the 1600-1700s would >>>> the travelers between Antrim and Scotland mostly have taken one of the >>>> major routes and then traveled overland to their destination. Like you >>>> said, areas of Scotland weren't/aren't easy to travel overland. >>>> >>>> I've been to the Antrim coast. Those cliffs are high enough for me. >>>> Unless it was densely forested, it seems like travel in Antrim would >>>> have been easier to travel around. >>>> >>>> My Kirks were Protestant, so that doesn't fit with the Catholic >>>> movement >>>> between the two countries. >>>> >>>> It is all very interesting. For instance with the iron ore I wonder if >>>> the soil in certain areas is as red as the areas of eastern Texas that >>>> have high iron ore content. Which east Texas has a high Scotch-Irish >>>> settlement though many descendants today don't know. >>>> >>>> Thanks again, Edward. Ludie >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Edward Andrews >>>> To: 'Loudene Tollar' ; Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:50 AM >>>> Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing >>>> >>>> >>>> You are not quite clear about what you are asking, so I will give a >>>> slightly long winded answer. >>>> Historically, despite its dangers - strong currents and being open to >>>> the >>>> Atlantic the North Channel has always been a very important highway >>>> between >>>> Scotland and Ireland. >>>> These currents and tide rips are important in that they did have >>>> effects >>>> on >>>> where ships could easily land >>>> For practical purposes we can divide the coast of Ulster up it up into >>>> several areas. From Malin Head to Fair Head, From Fair Head to Black >>>> Head, >>>> from Black Head to Ballyquinten Point, and from Ballyquinten Point >>>> south, >>>> (including Strangford Lough). >>>> While the Ulster coast can be neatly divided up the Scottish Coast is >>>> more >>>> difficult. There is the area to the north of the Mull of Kintyre, From >>>> the >>>> Mull of Kintyre to Carsewell Point and from Carsewell point south. >>>> On the Ulster side there is limited fishing, but this has traditionally >>>> been at its most productive in County Down. >>>> The Antrim coast is backed by a raised beach (I think it is the 10M >>>> one) >>>> which is broken by short rivers which flow down from the Antrim >>>> Plateau. >>>> The >>>> Plateau, while it is not very high is fronted on the sea side by cliffs >>>> which are only penetrated by the River Valleys. >>>> The two main roads which serve the coast run from Ballymena to >>>> Glenariff/Cushendall, and to Carnlough/Glenarm. Cushendun is a river >>>> mouth, >>>> which only provides shelter for a few small boats >>>> The whole North Antrim area has very strong cultural links with the >>>> Scottish coast. These links are Gaelic rather than plantation, and the >>>> Glens >>>> (the nine Glens of Antrim) are distinct from the rest of Antrim in that >>>> there is a much higher proportion of Roman Catholics there than in the >>>> rest >>>> of Antrim. They are very different indeed from the Lowland Scots of the >>>> plantation of Antrim. Gaelic was spoken until the early 20th Century. >>>> While I have chosen Fair Head as one of the arbitrary divisions of the >>>> coast, culturally Ballycastle is part of this community. It is the home >>>> town >>>> of Keith Cardinal O'Brian the Archbishop of Edinburgh and head of the >>>> Roman >>>> Catholic Church in Scotland. >>>> When I worked in Islay not only could you see the Antrim Coast, people >>>> went >>>> over for the Lammas Fair in Ballycastle. There has historically always >>>> been >>>> coming and going across the Ditch. >>>> However, transport is a function of the economy, and both Campbeltown >>>> and >>>> the Glens were primary producers. Ballycastle had a small coal mine, >>>> which >>>> only met local demand. (eighteenth century attempts at encouraging >>>> industry >>>> were not particularly successful and the harbour silted up and is now >>>> the >>>> town tennis court). Carnlough was important for its export of Limestone >>>> as >>>> was Glenarm. There was also Iron ore, as well as bauxite on the >>>> plateau. >>>> However this was generally exploited by narrow gage railway to >>>> Ballymena >>>> and >>>> then to Larne, it was not important for the Antrim Coast. There is a >>>> picture >>>> in the Lawrence Collection of an iron ore jetty near Fair Head. >>>> Campbeltown is a plantation town founded by James VI to bring the >>>> advantages of civilization to the Highlands. We believe that my >>>> ancestors >>>> went there from Maybole there in the 17th Century, before going to >>>> Ulster. >>>> However until well into the 20th Century when there were road >>>> improvements >>>> the whole of the Kintyre area was only served by sea. The development >>>> of >>>> car >>>> ferries in Scotland rather than passenger ferries meant that there was >>>> a >>>> demand for a car ferry to Ireland. >>>> It was only in the late 1960s / early 1970s that this ferry service >>>> was >>>> set up between Campbeltown and Red Bay by Western Ferries. While this >>>> was >>>> commercially a success, because of the security situation it was not >>>> possible to continue it. >>>> Western Ferries also had a Catamaran running on the Scotland (I can't >>>> remember where,) Portrush / Moville route >>>> In the 1990s a ferry was set up between Campbeltown and Ballycastle. >>>> However rather than being run by Cal-Mac the state run coastal shipping >>>> line >>>> (who run the Ballycastle / Rathlin service, it was run by a private >>>> company >>>> to whom Cal-mac had to sell a ship. This was a great rip-off and the >>>> service >>>> only and fro a few years. There are continued attempts to get a ferry >>>> running. However while the routes to Stranrear (and the south shore of >>>> the >>>> Clyde Estuary are extremely busy, Campbeltown is 140 miles from Glasgow >>>> over >>>> roads which are at times indifferent. >>>> In brief, historically there were ad hoc travel arrangements between >>>> the >>>> Antrim Coast and Scotland. These did not long last the introduction of >>>> Steam >>>> which tended to concentrate shipping in the larger ports. Attempts in >>>> the >>>> past 30 years to run a service have failed for one reason or another. >>>> Edward Andrews >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Loudene Tollar [mailto:ludiekt@juno.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:16 AM >>>> To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing >>>> >>>> Edward, I'm curious about the crossing between the area of Cushendun on >>>> the >>>> Irish coast and the peninsula of Campbelltown on Scotland's side. As >>>> that >>>> is such a short distance has it been used much for crossing in years >>>> past >> >>>> or >>>> >>>> is there a reason it wouldn't be? >>>> >>>> Ludie, freezing in Texas! >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >