Hi Bonnie, There are no Scotch Irish names, alas. Every single one of them is something else, like American names. That's because just as most Americans came here from somewhere else, excepting a few Indians (who had no surnames), Ireland was a place to go to and so many people went there. In Ulster natives had no surnames until the English imposed them on them in the early 1600s. Though there were no laws stating that you had to keep the one your father used. Still aren't! (In the rest of Ireland, under English rule centuries earlier, the Statutes of Kilkenny in the 14th century (or so...) forced Irish living u nder English control to take a surname). There are people who think you can tell someone's religion by their surname, but these people are often wrong. Individuals have religions and can change them at will. Surnames are inherited (and can be changed at will too). So when a young man of one religion marries a woman of another, some kind of compromise is made. Perhaps the children are raised in a different religion than the father's. If he was an Irish Catholic and the children were raied Protestant -- voila! You have a 'Scotch Irish" surname. I think you are probably trying to figure out where to find them. ELLIS is an English surname, found in Dublin (where Irish people were not allowed to live at one time) as early as 1281, says MacLysaght. It is not identified with any particular region of Ireland and is commonest in Leinster and Ulster. Bell in "Book of Ulster Surnames" has more information on the Ulster surname. He discusses it in the context of Elliott, as a variant. He notes Ellis is very common in Antrim. Says most in Ulster arrived in the post Plantation period. This name will not help you locate them in Ireland. It's important to recall that many Irish did leave from other parts of Ireland as well as Ulster in the colonial period. QUINN is one of the 20 most common names in Ireland, found everywhere. It is commonest in Ulster. It is the most common name in Tyrone and one of the first 10 in Armagh. Though the 11th most common in Monaghan in 1890 by 1970 it was the 57th suggesting much emigration. The O'Quinns of Tyrone were an important sept of Cenel Eoghain, closely related to the O'Hagans, thus O'Neills. Other septs include an O'Quinn group from the person name Conn, based in northern Antrim, Clare and Longford. Bell indicates by custom the Catholics use QUINN and Protestant QUIN. Although this must be recent, since without public schools or much educational opportunities in a language that had not set fixed spelling for surnames, who could spell a surname??? Other problems: at the start of the 20th century Quinn was used interchangably with Cunnea in Donegal, with MacConaghy and Queen in Monaghan, and Quenn in Armagh city, and Whin and Whinn in southeast Down. So the Quin would appear to be Irish, most likely. Neither name is a clue to where they were from. This is often the case. Once you figure out where they are from then local history may tell you the history of the instance of the surname there, where your ancestors came from. DNA probably would ID the quadrant of Ireland that they came from as well. By finding a match to a man with a known location in Ireland, you could assume yours came from nearby. Religion can be a great help, or rather, some religions can be. For example surnames associated with small groups like the Quakers and the Reformed Presbyterians are significant. There were only a few groups in Ireland, so knowing your ancestors were members of these groups limits you to those locations and suggests studying their history may also turn up information. Some of the surnames in the RP groups have been stable for 300 years. But don't be misled. I seem to recall someone once posting to the list who couldn't find any records for their family in a county in Ireland. However their ancestors were Protestant. Someone on the list knew that there were many people with the su rname in the county -- but they were Catholic. So someone changed religion. don't let this be a cause for you to fail to find them. Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:47:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Mitchell, Scotch/Irish New York to Michigan Linda, Can you tell me if the Ellis or Quinn family names are Scotch-Irish? If so, where in Ireland do they show up? Bonnie O'Neil In a message dated 3/9/2010 3:27:10 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bill, I haven't googled recently so I can't tell you what there is on line for the RP church in Wilkinsburg. The RP Seminary library is just up the road apiece. I don't know what they got either since when I visited there last I hadn't revisited the will of my ancestor (collected by mother and sister) and as a result of a lot of learning, realized that the witness to the will was now known to me. I guess I should go back. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "William McKinney" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 2:26:46 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Mitchell, Scotch/Irish New York to Michigan Howdy Linda, Just curious. Are there any accounts on line relating to the Reformed Presbyterian Church in Wilkinsburg. That's where my McKinneys ended up after selling their Braddocks Field farm to Andrew Carnegie for his steel works. Bill McKinney In Erie (which, yes, got precious little snow this year compared to last) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 5:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [S-I] Mitchell, Scotch/Irish New York to Michigan Hi Richard, This doesn't quite make sense to me: >My FTDNA, (67 Y Markers Tested), shows overwhelming Scotch and Irish ancestry with Irish being slightly higher than Scotch. Thats not how Y DNA results are reported (in any useful fashion). Are you refering to the familytreedna page of Recent Ancestral Origins? That's not accurate at all. It just sees where people that match you (who have origins) come from. A lot don't list origins and some are wrong. Go with your haplogroup. The haplogroup is of course fuzzy too for a couple reasons: We don't know where they originated (though the scientists have theories -- which change every two years) and who cares -- we want to know where your immediate ancestors were living. If you turn up NW Irish, you can assume they were in Ulster or nearby areas of Scotland -- ie it gives you some clues. What's the haplogroup? And who do you match to? You may find matches with a different surname because surnames are fairly recent, but they're a clue. If you tell us a few of them, maybe we can tell from the surnames where they might have come from, unless it was Glasgow....same surnames in parts of Glasgow as in northern Ireland because so many went over. The point is though that these are statistical and your unique history is unique and not based on statistics. You use the statistics to figure out where the best places are to search. You don't have enough info to search in Scotland. You need to follow George back through the censuses as far as you can. You might find him living as a child in a household with his parents. Anyway the census work will give you an approximate date of birth. Then censuses also tell you where he was born -- what state. You should also try to find an obit for him and see if you can view the actual death record, not a death certificate. This is dependent on the state he died in. What state did he die in? You also need to gather all his siblings, their dates of birth and where they were born from the censuses. These are clues, esp. ones born in Scotland. There are plenty of James Mitchells there, but with the names of children and maybe spouse, you can narrow it down. Since he was born in the USA and his father in Scotland probably his father was in the USA at the time of his birth and you can trace him backwards in the censuses. Then you look for a naturalization record. If he was in the USA in 1812, if he was not naturalized he should be listed as an alien. the book is in Ancestry. You want to search for a naturalization record for the father and then first papers. The first papers are more likely to nail down his origins. However the people who stood for him are critical people. Like in the case of a client of mine whose ancstors claimed to be Scots, the men who stood for him when he naturalized were both first generation Irish. They didn't randomly go somewhere in the USA -- they went to where other people from the family and/or village went. It's called c! hain migration. So you always look up those guys in the censuses and see what you can learn about them. They are clues. Similarly, one of the sons of the Rev. John Black, who also became a minister, witnessed the will of a Kelly ancestor of mine. Why? He died north of the Allegheny and this man's church was in Wilkinsburg. Because of some previous tie, that's why. There were Kellys associated with the Reformed Presbyterian church in Wilkinsburg but so far I've not found the origins of mine -- but it is an important clue to where they were before they manifested in Indiana Twp (Allegheny Co). >I apologise to any of those who I may have offended on the list, Actually I did more offending than you today. You didn't offend anyone at all. Good luck! Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message