Hi Jim, It's hard to say, not knowing what you have or have not read already. FamilytreeDNA and the other firms all have information on their websites. So does www.isogg.org . Trace Your Roots with DNA: Use Your DNA to Complete Your Family Tree by Megan Smolenyak and Ann Turner (See amazon) is good. Both are on the genealogy-dna list. There may be lists of reading posted at the DNA Newbie list too. To learn more about your haplogroup, you would of course google. Due to the association with Nial of the Nine Hostages, you would google for him. There is a LOT of the old Irish lineages on line. However not all of these are correct -- apparently there are errors. I know the fellow I work with a lot refuses to speculate on anything before the 12th century. This seems very humorous to me but before that he says there are issues, but of course these are published yet so no one's spilling the beans prematurely. That's all I know. Of course the Irish raided the coast of England in the Dark Ages and before and even established colonies, but those were absorbed. Usually they talk of Wales since it's closest to Ireland. In the early 1600s, as the English destroyed the O'Neill kingdom, it was reported that there were many Irish 'vagrants' in England, wandering about. No one of course wanted them to 'settle' in their parish as then the parish would be responsible for their upkeep, so they were probably forced to wander. The point being that plenty of Irish had migrated over early in modern times. Sometimes you can find complaints about them in parish chests and vestry minutes or even civil courts. One thing to look for is a landlord that has an Irish estate. He may have brought people over from his Irish estate -- or vise versa. Possibly generation 1 went to England as a servant. The servant's son was trained as a florist or gatekeeper, etc, etc, etc. Eventually someone returns to perform skilled labor on the Irish estate. You can spend lots of time reading the bios of the local lords in Devon. That's just a scenario -- to figure it out means hours and hours of examining your evidence and getting more. Then creating a hypothesis and testing it by seeking out info to support it. The Statues of Kilkenny in the 14th century required that Irish living in the Pale take English style names, among other things. One of their choices was color. So maybe that's how you got White. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Kilkenny Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim White" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 5:27:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA Hi Linda: I found your article fantastically interesting and informative. Can you advise further reading, to a DNA novice, for a person with NW Irish Heritage. My Haplogroup is "R1b12a1b". My earliest known ancestor was born in Sligo, Ireland, ca 1765. It is my speculation his g grandfather came from Devon, England, ca 1695-1725. Kindest Regards Jim White Naples, Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > Hi Ruth, > > There's some information here about I1: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29 > > Most importantly it says: > "When SNPs are unknown or untested and when short tandem repeat (STR) > results show eight allele repeats at DNA Y chromosome Segment (DYS) 455, > haplogroup I1 can be predicted correctly with a very high rate of > accuracy, 99.3 to 99.8 percent, according to Whit Athey and Vince > Vizachero. [ 11 ] [ 12 ] This is almost exclusive to and ubiquitous in the > I1 haplogroup, with very few having seven, nine, or another number. > Furthermore, DYS 462 divides I1 geographically. Nordtvedt considers 12 > allele repeats to be more likely Anglo-Saxon and on the southern fringes > of the I1 map, while 13 signifies more northerly, Nordic origins. > Nordtvedt has repeatedly argued that, at least for I1, [ 13 ] SNP testing > is generally not as beneficial as expanded STR results." > > Ken Nordtvedt is very active on the genealogy-DNA list and he is the > specialist in this haplo group. As you can see above you should be able to > distinguish between two types -- Anglo Saxon and Nordic. Probably there is > more information in the archives of the genealogy DNA list including the > logic of those who may dispute his analysis. >>Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be > hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that > those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? > > What is "most Celtic Irish"??? WIthin Ireland there is, to a geneticist, a > wide variation of percentages of different types of DNA regionally. So > where are you talking about precisely? in the true north west most men are > northwest Irish, a specific type of R1 but as you shift locations you get > different percentages. And then of course what are the others? Various > things including other types of R1. > > Second problem is 'what is Celtic'? Celtic is a CULTURE. It has nothing to > do with DNA. The scientists still debate over whether it was brought to > Ireland by actual migrations of people bearing it or taught. If you go now > to almost anywhere on the planet you will find evidence of Euro-American > culture (blue jeans, for example), > but is that the result of a massive invasion of EuroAmericans or cultural > transference. We know usually its > cultural transference. But we don't know (or rather I don't know and my > eyes glaze over listening to the > arguments) how it came to Ireland. > > What seems true from what I have read, though perhaps I am out of date, is > that most of the IRish population > was in place a very long time ago, migrating up the coast of Europe over > land bridges. At the Seine, which > then emptied south into the Atlantic (flowing through what is now the > English Channel), some went west > to Scotland and some took the valley of the SEine and went up it and into > what is now France. The interior > of Wales was mountainous. These people eventually crossed over into > Scotland, probably over a land > bridge. > > However since God never towed either away from one another, they were > always close, even after the > ice age ended and the land bridges inundated, clever humans built boats > and traveled freely among > Ireland, Scotland, and the Nordic lands. > > The Nordic lands were settled in a different fashion. You can view > these..... But some of these Nordic > types of DNA were in Ireland for thousands of years. Does that mean they > aren't "Celtic"? This is hogwash. > Of course they were as Celtic as the next guy. We don't want to end up > becoming some > kind of 21st century 'bigot' who claims some poor smuck with an I1 chromo > isn't really Irish when in fact he is. And for all we know, some came up > from the Iberian area. They were > not 'pure' haplotypes, even then. > > On the other hand too the eastern coast of England/Scotland was settled > from the east, not the south, > and it has seen waves of migrations, even in prehistoric times. There is > much greater diversity there. > > People don't realize that our ancestors were very mobile. I was just > reading about the world of Bede, > an 8th century English historian who sheds much light on the Dark Ages at > a time when the Anglo > Saxons were still not very Christian and Christianity was still grappling > with the neoclassic pagan > heritage (ie re-writing Latin texbooks using Christian stories and not > pagan). In the 700s people liked > to go on pilgrimates to Rome. They'd cross to France and travel south, > departing by boat from Marseilles. > Took six months or more to get there. Many died on the way, but it was > good to die on a pilgrimage. > One person went on six such trips in his life. Later on, before the > Vikings destroyed things, the > Anglo Saxon/Irish Christians had great impact on Continental Europe -- > many traveled there and > even settled. We find many English manuscripts in Continental libraries > from these dark age > centuries. The DNA mixed a lot. The Irish came to England, the English to > Ireland, etc, etc,e tc. > > The scientists always deal with statistics, so they can tell you 60 > percent of your type of DNA is > found here, etc...but you are not interested in the big picture. You want > to know about one particular > instance. Maybe you can never know when precisely your ancestor arrived in > Ireland because his > DNA will not tell you. Only that it was in Ireland because your ancestor > was. You have to seek other > information to even devise theories. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29 - the migration of > R1 is complicated > and some do not believe in the Ibernian origin any more. > > How can you really separate planters from Irish? Scientists iare of the > opinion that it is not > possible. After all, God towed Ireland next to Scotland a very long time > ago and since then people with > legs and boats could travel back and forth. If you actually think the DNA > is different in Scotland from the > DNA in Ireland, see me about a bridge i'm selling. It is not. It dffers in > percentages. Many Scots clans, > we know, are founded by Irishmen. Their DNA doesn't 'change' just because > they moved to Scotland. > The scientists see different types of mutations coming from a common > 'root', ie different branches, > but also there is the constant patter of new people in both places. > > A person's chromosomes do not determine their ethnicity. An Irish ancestor > living in Ireland could have > strange DNA -- maybe he comes from Wales, where there were Irish colonies > and where the Irish raided > and took slaves. THe Romans imported slaves to work in Welsh copper > mines -- you find all kinds of > eastern Mediteranian DNA there. These people are called "Welsh > coalminers". Their Y chromo is > irrelevant. When ancestors were captured and lugged to Ireland, their > descendents were "Irishmen". > > So if you want to know about your ancestor, you should study the records > to see where he lived, > how he lived, and what his religion and social class was. That will tell > you who he was -- not his > Y chromosome. > > A Johnston with a I2 Y chromo could culturally have been "Celtic' > (whatever that means). he isn't > related to the McShane clan that gave Queen Lizzie and some other O'Neills > heart burn in the > 1500s. That's all it says. A more detailed inspection by Ken Nordtvedt (or > yourself) might suggest > something about where he was before if you have matches. Or you can > understand the mutation rates > so you can tell who matches when the FTDNA software doesn't indicate they > are matches. Or you > understand the genomap well enough to ID the significance of 'upstream' > mutations. I can't do this > and must rely on others. > > What we see in projects like the Cumberland Gap project (descendents of > people, often 'scotch irish', > migrating west through the Gap into Kentucky) is a lot of north west > Irish. What it shows is a lot of > indiginous Irish assimilating into .... what? "Planter"? Meaning they were > Protestant in Ireland? "Scotch Irish" > meaning they assimilated in America? I donno <grin>. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 2:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > > It's interesting, Dan, that the 1718 Smith family I am tracing and > which we've talked about specifically, is also I1. This family is a > Plantation family, arriving in Ulster from Argyllshire in the first > half of the 17th c — the earliest family member, known about in some > detail, was on one of the "first 5 ships' of 1718, and is always said > in oral tradition to have, in infancy, survived the Siege of Derry. > > So, in some sense, I didn't necessarily expect an R1b haplogroup > placement. I wonder if, since your Wilsons seem to have had a somewhat > parallel history to my Smiths in many ways, perhaps there was a > significant pocket of I1s who came to Ulster in Plantation times. > > I did, however, get an immediate R1b1b2 for my presumed > reiver-descended Crozier. His antecedents weren't Planter but probably > came to Fermanagh not long after. So both from Scotland but... > > Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be > hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that > those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? could in > fact be left over Danes maybe? > > Wouldn't it be interesting to get all the 1718 and post Ulster > families to DNA test and compare haplogroups, to see if it's possible > to separate out Planters from indigenous Irish? > > But then sorting out the whys of I1 Argyllshire men from the R1b1b2 > lowland reivers is another question. Too many intriguing questions!! > > BTW LInda, you said my Johnston might turn out to be a Celtic McShane. > No chance, it seems, since my testor (a late 80s-something cousin) is > I1 whose sub-haplogroup seems, if I am to believe the current talk, to > be one of the so-called Poldean Johnstons of Scotland "whose Y-DNA > signature" says Cliff Johnston, "is [so] distinctive...there is no > mistaking it for any other surname's Y-DNA. Indeed, if one has only > the shortest test available, the 12-markers test, one can tell if he > is a Poldean Johnston immediately." > > The amazing part of this Johnston DNA test is that it might never have > 'been,' had not been for a persistent Wilcox-cousin in Australia who > developed the super 'super-search' Fermanagh website > <http://www.fermanagh-gold.com/> for his fellow-subscribers to the > Fermanagh-GOLD mailing list (and anyone else who needs Fermanagh data) > — BTW, another Mailing list in the category of Linda Merle's!! > > David noticed I had "a Johnston" in MY family tree (big deal!–half the > world has Johnstons in their trees!!); he'd DNA tested and he thought > one of mine ought to, too. I begged off, already being swamped with > DNA, with the comment that Johnstons are a dime a dozen and a chance > of a match was wildly unlikely. Dave persisted, despite my brush off, > saying things like... you had a Crozier who married a Johnston in > Canada... I had a Wilcox from the same area of Ireland who married a > Johnston there & emigrated to Australia... The mother of your Crozier > who married the Johnston was a Wilcox... > > So seeing his greater wisdom, I gave in and the test of my Johnston > cousin got done. Voilà a match! — both David and I from Poldean stock, > if Cliff be right (and BTW, I have no reason to question him!). A > 35/37 match with David and a 36/37 match with Cliff! > > I guess the message is — if you've got a decent paper trail and a few > dollars to spend, despite all the unanswered questions we all have by > times, it's wildly 'worth it' to test! > > Ruth > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5014 (20100409) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message