Hi Jim, I'm certainly not of Celtic Irish descent. My grandfather was born in Sheffield. Quite English. Regards, Dick Holmes Occidental CA On Apr 13, 2010, at 12:01 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: More on DNA (Jim White) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:46:39 -0500 > From: "Jim White" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Ruth: > > I was interested in your comment that R1b1b2 are "most Celtic Irish". I am > R1b1b2, and my earliest known ancestor wasd born in Sligo, ca 1765. I have > assumed, from some vague information, that my White ancestors came from > England, ca 1710, as part of a plan to develop- the Linen Trade in Sligo. > > Is it likely that an R1b1b2 came from Southern England ? (or do you need > much more of the DNA signature? I have taken the 67 marker DNA test at > FTDNA). > > Regards > > Jum White > > Naples, Florida > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 11:57 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > > > What else can I say but THANK YOU! What a terrific response. > > I've read it twice and already learned much ? it's so very > interesting, as well as useful, because of your gift of writing so > conversationally. I want to throughly 'digest' that Wikipedia > quotation about I1 that you give and also I'll go looking for Ken > Nordvedt. > > Will re-read what you've written tomorrow when I'm brighter than at > this late hour! This is yet another post of yours that will join my > file called "Great Linda Merle Posts." Thanks. > > Ruth in Ottawa > > > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:07 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi Ruth, >> >> There's some information here about I1: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29 >> >> Most importantly it says: >> "When SNPs are unknown or untested and when short tandem repeat (STR) >> results show eight allele repeats at DNA Y chromosome Segment (DYS) 455, >> haplogroup I1 can be predicted correctly with a very high rate of >> accuracy, 99.3 to 99.8 percent, according to Whit Athey and Vince >> Vizachero. [ 11 ] [ 12 ] This is almost exclusive to and ubiquitous in the >> I1 haplogroup, with very few having seven, nine, or another number. >> Furthermore, DYS 462 divides I1 geographically. Nordtvedt considers 12 >> allele repeats to be more likely Anglo-Saxon and on the southern fringes >> of the I1 map, while 13 signifies more northerly, Nordic origins. >> Nordtvedt has repeatedly argued that, at least for I1, [ 13 ] SNP testing >> is generally not as beneficial as expanded STR results." >> >> Ken Nordtvedt is very active on the genealogy-DNA list and he is the >> specialist in this haplo group. As you can see above you should be able to >> distinguish between two types -- Anglo Saxon and Nordic. Probably there is >> more information in the archives of the genealogy DNA list including the >> logic of those who may dispute his analysis. >>> Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be >> hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that >> those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? >> >> What is "most Celtic Irish"??? WIthin Ireland there is, to a geneticist, a >> wide variation of percentages of different types of DNA regionally. So >> where are you talking about precisely? in the true north west most men are >> northwest Irish, a specific type of R1 but as you shift locations you get >> different percentages. And then of course what are the others? Various >> things including other types of R1. >> >> Second problem is 'what is Celtic'? Celtic is a CULTURE. It has nothing to >> do with DNA. The scientists still debate over whether it was brought to >> Ireland by actual migrations of people bearing it or taught. If you go now >> to almost anywhere on the planet you will find evidence of Euro-American >> culture (blue jeans, for example), >> but is that the result of a massive invasion of EuroAmericans or cultural >> transference. We know usually its >> cultural transference. But we don't know (or rather I don't know and my >> eyes glaze over listening to the >> arguments) how it came to Ireland. >> >> What seems true from what I have read, though perhaps I am out of date, is >> that most of the IRish population >> was in place a very long time ago, migrating up the coast of Europe over >> land bridges. At the Seine, which >> then emptied south into the Atlantic (flowing through what is now the >> English Channel), some went west >> to Scotland and some took the valley of the SEine and went up it and into >> what is now France. The interior >> of Wales was mountainous. These people eventually crossed over into >> Scotland, probably over a land >> bridge. >> >> However since God never towed either away from one another, they were >> always close, even after the >> ice age ended and the land bridges inundated, clever humans built boats >> and traveled freely among >> Ireland, Scotland, and the Nordic lands. >> >> The Nordic lands were settled in a different fashion. You can view >> these..... But some of these Nordic >> types of DNA were in Ireland for thousands of years. Does that mean they >> aren't "Celtic"? This is hogwash. >> Of course they were as Celtic as the next guy. We don't want to end up >> becoming some >> kind of 21st century 'bigot' who claims some poor smuck with an I1 chromo >> isn't really Irish when in fact he is. And for all we know, some came up >> from the Iberian area. They were >> not 'pure' haplotypes, even then. >> >> On the other hand too the eastern coast of England/Scotland was settled >> from the east, not the south, >> and it has seen waves of migrations, even in prehistoric times. There is >> much greater diversity there. >> >> People don't realize that our ancestors were very mobile. I was just >> reading about the world of Bede, >> an 8th century English historian who sheds much light on the Dark Ages at >> a time when the Anglo >> Saxons were still not very Christian and Christianity was still grappling >> with the neoclassic pagan >> heritage (ie re-writing Latin texbooks using Christian stories and not >> pagan). In the 700s people liked >> to go on pilgrimates to Rome. They'd cross to France and travel south, >> departing by boat from Marseilles. >> Took six months or more to get there. Many died on the way, but it was >> good to die on a pilgrimage. >> One person went on six such trips in his life. Later on, before the >> Vikings destroyed things, the >> Anglo Saxon/Irish Christians had great impact on Continental Europe -- >> many traveled there and >> even settled. We find many English manuscripts in Continental libraries >> from these dark age >> centuries. The DNA mixed a lot. The Irish came to England, the English to >> Ireland, etc, etc,e tc. >> >> The scientists always deal with statistics, so they can tell you 60 >> percent of your type of DNA is >> found here, etc...but you are not interested in the big picture. You want >> to know about one particular >> instance. Maybe you can never know when precisely your ancestor arrived in >> Ireland because his >> DNA will not tell you. Only that it was in Ireland because your ancestor >> was. You have to seek other >> information to even devise theories. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29 - the migration of >> R1 is complicated >> and some do not believe in the Ibernian origin any more. >> >> How can you really separate planters from Irish? Scientists iare of the >> opinion that it is not >> possible. After all, God towed Ireland next to Scotland a very long time >> ago and since then people with >> legs and boats could travel back and forth. If you actually think the DNA >> is different in Scotland from the >> DNA in Ireland, see me about a bridge i'm selling. It is not. It dffers in >> percentages. Many Scots clans, >> we know, are founded by Irishmen. Their DNA doesn't 'change' just because >> they moved to Scotland. >> The scientists see different types of mutations coming from a common >> 'root', ie different branches, >> but also there is the constant patter of new people in both places. >> >> A person's chromosomes do not determine their ethnicity. An Irish ancestor >> living in Ireland could have >> strange DNA -- maybe he comes from Wales, where there were Irish colonies >> and where the Irish raided >> and took slaves. THe Romans imported slaves to work in Welsh copper >> mines -- you find all kinds of >> eastern Mediteranian DNA there. These people are called "Welsh >> coalminers". Their Y chromo is >> irrelevant. When ancestors were captured and lugged to Ireland, their >> descendents were "Irishmen". >> >> So if you want to know about your ancestor, you should study the records >> to see where he lived, >> how he lived, and what his religion and social class was. That will tell >> you who he was -- not his >> Y chromosome. >> >> A Johnston with a I2 Y chromo could culturally have been "Celtic' >> (whatever that means). he isn't >> related to the McShane clan that gave Queen Lizzie and some other O'Neills >> heart burn in the >> 1500s. That's all it says. A more detailed inspection by Ken Nordtvedt (or >> yourself) might suggest >> something about where he was before if you have matches. Or you can >> understand the mutation rates >> so you can tell who matches when the FTDNA software doesn't indicate they >> are matches. Or you >> understand the genomap well enough to ID the significance of 'upstream' >> mutations. I can't do this >> and must rely on others. >> >> What we see in projects like the Cumberland Gap project (descendents of >> people, often 'scotch irish', >> migrating west through the Gap into Kentucky) is a lot of north west >> Irish. What it shows is a lot of >> indiginous Irish assimilating into .... what? "Planter"? Meaning they were >> Protestant in Ireland? "Scotch Irish" >> meaning they assimilated in America? I donno <grin>. >> >> Linda Merle > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 5014 (20100409) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5023 (20100412) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SCOTCH-IRISH list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the SCOTCH-IRISH mailing list, send an email to [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 121 > ********************************************