Hi Marilyn, Hey, same type as my dad -- so how can I view the DNA sample? The central Ulster region there (Omagh) is rather mountainous. As such it didn't attract farmers. Many Irish, forced off of better farming land, moved to the mountainous areas of Tyrone. Some parishes still have the highest number of Irish living in them of any in Northern Ireland. Still, your DNA doesn't seem to be Irish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2 As for how many markers you need tested to get good results, you'll have to find someone who studies this type of DNA. The Irish are very much alike so you need 67 to get any kinds of results. I don't know what you mean by 'unassigned'? Does that mean it is not assigned to a group in the Ulster Heritae project or what? I'm assuming you are a member there and the Armstrong and borders groups???? I know the Border folk are a very mixed bag, DNA wise. See the Border DNA project for information. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/ And here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/border_reiver_deep_ancestry.htm Like I said, my father is in this area and he is predicted R1b1b2, same as YOU. So is it in Ysearch or where can I look at it to see if we match? He has an Armstrong in his family tree, but our surname is Mason. What I can tell you about the DNA is what I already said -- my father is Frisian, probably an ancient settlement. All the R's in the Border project are NOT Celtic, despite their webpages. I can also turn you onto the scientist. You may notice that England and Scotland are not very big and the Irish Sea is not very wide. They have been next to each other for a long time. So people move about. Most likely your Armstrong IS an Armstrong and he moved there after the Plantation. Many border people, esp. Armstrongs, fled since it seemed preferable to being hung from a tree. They tended to settle in Fermanagh where there were already border people, but your ancestors had legs so maybe they used them to move. There is a lot of migration in Ulster. People were rarely nailed into place. Serfdom has been gone for a very long time in the British Isles. I could speculate more if I knew more: ie what was their occupation? What townland did they live on? What estate was this townland part of? I am not so familar with Omagh, more south eastern Tyrone -- ie Dungannon. The Church had huge estates in this area (SE Tyrone). Some townlands it leased out for a hundred years or more, some it did not. In any case, the Irish cluster on these townlands because the Church wasn't forced to not rent to Irish. If your ancestor was poor with a short lease and Catholic, he probably thought he was Irish. He was certainly living the life of an Irishman. Being told his ancestors were border people would not have mattered. Actually many of them were Catholic. The Borders, English and Scots side, were full of recusants -- Catholics. The further you got from London the more 'diversity' people could have in spite of the law. Ditto for Scots in regards to Edinburgh, which 'ruled' the Borders in a very nominal sense only. My ancestors lived near a village called Ereshope way up in the Pennines. No church records. It had no Church of England church. Everyone was Presbyterian. Oh, you think, someone come from Scotland to preach? NO! Serviced out of Lancashire, other side of the mountain. Too high for the king's henchmen....no oxygen up there so people lived however they wanted, apparently. In Durham records you also find land inherited in the Scots fashion via sassines. Anyway that might explain how your ancestor got to Ireland. The DNA in the Borders was very very mixed because all kinds of people went there -- Romans, Angles, Vikings all invaded, remember? It is the origin of Jefferson, whose DNA is K2 or K -- both very old African types. Even before the sea flooded, people were crossing from Europe to this area. Maybe that's the J's. Donno (My mother is a J but her ancestress only made it to Germany). They are not sure about the early migrations -- like I said, appears to be more migrations early on, like Frisian. Pass on your kit number and where it is (or ysearch number) and I'll see if we match or not. Then we''ll only have to decide to go to your house first or mine!! It took me a couple years to just find anyone interested in my DNA. Still no matches....well, unless YOU match. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Otterson" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:20:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Ruth (and Linda), I can understand how you feel. My dad was always told that his Armstrongs were Scottish. I know the Armstrongs were a big Borders clan, many of them very pesty aggravators of the English crown, who raided on both sides of the Borders and in the late 1500s had many of the clan shipped up to Northern Ireland. Since doing my own research I have found that the family came from Termonmaguirk area in Omagh district in Co. Tyrone. Hoping perhaps to meet up with some "cousins" through Y-DNA testing, I got my male cousin on my paternal side, an Armstrong man, that is, to contribute a few cheek cells so I could find out my Armstrong Y-DNA of my particular family. I have my info on the Family Tree DNA on the Armstrong group and a couple of others and have had only a couple of 25-marker matches, both with different surnames, and neither or which wants to play genealogy with me. (I always said if I found a 25 marker match I'd go for a bigger number, but so far I don't have any) LINDA...my haplogroup was first said to be R1b1c but now it's classed as to be R1b1b2..so I am confused, and my ancestor is in the "unassigned" section of the Armstrong DNA group. The closest deep ancestry of mine, the most recent bunch, is said to be England, Germany, Holland,Ireland, New Zealand, Northern Ireland and Scotland. New Zealand???? How does that work in? Now...how do I try to interpret stuff like this and how come I never find a "cousin". Do I have a weird haplogroup, or what? I suppose, since my DNA is "unassigned" that must mean that it can't be put in any specific group of testees who mostly seem to have some group to which they at least somewhat closely match. Like Ruth, I can't see that I can get any real info from the DNA results I have. I've had my info on Family Tree DNA for over 3 years with nary a bite. Thanks for any insight! Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... > Very interesting post, Linda. > > When a family member tests and family turns out to be "Northwest > Irish," does that mean they have to be R1b of one kind of another? Or > are they are a particular R1b category? Or not necessarily either of > the above? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message