Hi John, actually Milligan is in MacLysaght, "Surnames of Ireland". He just indicates that it is Irish. I do not use "Families Their Names , Arms and Origins " because it is not as useful -- smaller, fewer names. With small budget I asked an expert (an ex librarian) and bought what she recommended. So far I've think she's been right on. In the case of using either book, one must be cautious. When I asked about definitive surname books for Ireland the response was that there is no single source that is all round the best and viewed as such by the experts. Apparently the older sources, who are largely MacLysaght's, tend to lack evidence of the type that impresses modern day experts. These days with DNA much of what the old texts say can be supported with DNA evidence or maybe not. We're still gathering the data. Black "Surnames of Scotland" has been criticized because of his methodology. He used written records for his sources, largely, while also sometimes noting other sources. This means he covers the lowlanders well, but the highland culture was an oral culture. It may well be under represented. Probably a few weeks doing lookups on a highland list would allow one to informally decide what his/her own opinion is. I have never worked enough with highland surnames to know -- and I have no plans of doing it. Of course its possible such a person would be wrong because the more careful study by experts might result in a different conclusion. So no matter what conclusion one came to or what one said there might be lots of others who would disagree and may attack you for it, were you a worthy or unworthy target of their scorn. "A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Reaney and Wilson also is based on written sources. This is useful because, like with Black, those are identified, and assuming you can figure out how to find pipe rolls <grin>, you can use the book as a source to actual records. It doesn't tend to have much that is useful for very common names, especially occupational, like my English surnames are (Mason, Gardner, etc). Our modern bias is to prefer well sourced surname books. One reason is that suggestions that the hoary texts might be wrong can be politically risky and at the least result in hostile emails. My little experience with Irish research is that neither 'side' wants its honored beliefs challenged, either within or without. In Northern Ireland surnames are, as much as history, the politics of ethnicity. Or some such term.... Surname books are also written for different purposes. Here I'm talking about fairly scholarly works as opposed to the ones intended to preserve or express ethnic, clan, or national identity. There were some of those written back in the early 1900s that claimed a huge number of the Scotch Irish as Irish, sparking off a battle or two. I'm just happy when I can identify a Glenns surname. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Carey" <johnca@quickclic.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 10:51:15 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] McCoy, McKay, Armstrong, Milligan, Field Marilyn and Linda I imagine that the MacLysaght book that Linda is using is The Surnames of Ireland. It was first published in 1985. As she said, Milligan is not listed there. Another of his books is Irish Families Their Names , Arms and Origins that was first published in 1957. Milligan is not one of the names dealt with in the main parts of this book as well. However, among the Appendices to this book there is one listing other Irish surnames rarely found outside particular counties or baronies. Milligan is listed there in connection with Antrim and South Derry but he doesn't say the source of this information. Unfortunately, that's one of the frustrations with MacLysaght. John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: November-14-11 10:19 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] McCoy, McKay, Armstrong, Milligan, Field Hi Marilyn, I do find Milligan in Black "Surnames of Scotland". This is one I'll have to blame on the Irish! (Joke). Ie MacLysaght doesn't mention it. Usually Black is considered 'definitive' for Scottish surnames. MacLysaght is rarely accorded that same high esteem among the Irish, as I have learned on various lists. He has to compete with several earlier documenters of Irish surnames, some quite early. The same lists discuss who is the truest but of course it varies with the poster and I also think who you are trying to research. No doubt McL and his associates are great for those researching the Irish, but unfortunately, especially for those of us researching in Ulster, that may not be the case. Besides these two books I have an "English" surname that also has a lot of Scots, Welsh, and Irish names, which is why I said "English" and not English <grin>. However I don't have the time to look up all this. Often Bell "Book of Ulster Surnames" will give you a summary of what McL, Black, and Reaney and Wilson (my English surname book) say. Bell does say Milligan could be either Scots or Irish. This illustrates one of my main points: always look up the surname. I should add, in the right book <grin>! And I should take my own advice and follow it compulsively to avoid screwing up. Did you find the McCoy, etc? or where to check? Browse from http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/NIR/Scotch-Irish.html down to Nov. 2011. If I am hallucinating and didn't do them, let us know. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Otterson" <rosiedoggie@myfairpoint.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:47:37 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] McCoy, McKay, Armstrong, Milligan, Field Hi, Linda.....hey, I got a DNA test, even found an Armstrong cousin in Co. Tyrone although he wasn't interested in swapping ancestor stories. His ancestors are from the same tiny townland...it's only a 25 match, but with the location and all, it seems pretty positive. His cousin sent me photos of the old (wrecked now) farmstead. Milligan is also a Scottish name...they say that she always swore she was Scottish, but then everybody did that. We don't know where Milligan and Field came from for sure, but assume Milligan was Fermanagh as that is pretty close to where my Armstrongs lived in Tyrone. We finally found the Milligan graves in a Boston area cemetery. Of course they were hard to find...one stone was only "Mother" and the other was "Father." It took a Milligan researcher to find the stones among some of the offspring, but we still can't find where they came from. You might remember that I asked about those folks before....they went back to Ireland and then back to the USA through Liverpool to Quebec to Boston. We could never find ships' records in Boston because they didn't come in that way. Sorry I missed the McCoy and Armstrong stuff...Termonmagurk area of Co. Tyrone. You mean the list archives? I am surprised I missed that although this has been a beastly year and I had to let the genealogy stuff mostly slide. Hoping to get back to it. Cheers, Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: <lmerle@comcast.net> To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] McCoy, McKay, Armstrong, Milligan, Field > Hi Marilyn, McKay and Armstrong are done. Check archives.....amazed! > You aren't reading every single one of these <grin>!!! > > Nada for the other two. Mulligan of course is Irish, a Donegal sept, > though now found in Mayo and Monaghan. Because as MacLysaght says > "much reduced at the time of the Plantation". I think by that he means > "mostly killed. " Field? Was his first name "Green"???? Sorry, bad > joke. The Irish didn't tend to take locative surnames but it is > possible his Irish name sounded like something...Or he was English. > McLysaght says... bingo! (Oops that was me).... could be Fehilly or Maghery. Fehilly is a Connacht sept. > An Mhachaire 'of the field' is one of the few 'cognomina' taken from a > place of residence. It is found in Co Limerick in the 1300s, but ... > it takes the form Field in Armagh. > > Maybe you need a DNA test <grin>. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marilyn Otterson" <rosiedoggie@myfairpoint.net> > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 8:47:45 PM > Subject: [S-I] McCoy, McKay, Armstrong, Milligan, Field > > Hi, > I just dropped into the list today as I have been involved in a couple > of other projects and have let genealogy slide. > > Now I see McKoy and McKay and now I am interested. I never pass up a > chance to ask this group questions and now I am wondering a bit what > is going on. > Anyway....Armstrong, McCoy (or sometimes McKay), Milligan and Field > from Co. > Tyrone. If anybody sees those names, I'd love to know about it. > > Thanks, > Marilyn > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message