Hi D. H., yup, is anything easy in Ireland (genealogically related)? However on the plus side, it's also good to recall that sometimes people went afield to baptize children. So it's always good (the experts tell us, not that it has ever worked out for me <grin>) to check what does survive. Some of the Dublin church records start very early -- early 1600s, maybe earlier (can't recall). The Templemore (Derry) records do start very early and people often traveled there. You'll also find many Irish names in its records. They're published, so available in libraries. As well as the FHL. Belfast Presbyterian church records also start earlier and they can contain the names of many people not living in Belfast. Those churches also rented mortclothes to other churches and apparently those survive. Mortclothes is something you encounter in Scottish genealogy. People were not buried in coffins but wrapped. They were conveyed to the church for services drapped in mort clothes, which usually came in several grades and were rented from the kirk. The grades were not big, medium and large but rather concerned quality. The wealthy rented the expensive ones and the poor, well, the real poor went without! They even charged for ringing the bell. In Scotland the church records usually do not include burials or deaths, but you can get an idea who died when by viewing mortclothes. I've viewed a lot in my parishes. (Which is how I know about charging for ringing the bell <grin>). Unfortunately they might say 'best mortclothe Widow Dalrymple" or 'child John Dalrymple, no mortclothe". Apparently they would sometimes borrow mortclothes and other stuff from the rich congregations in Belfast. So the Belfast records are also useful. The easiest way, short of looking in Ryan "Irish Records" to find out what survives is to check http://www.genuki.org.uk/ . Here is also a page for Fianna, which is also excellent (free and on the Internet): http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/county/derry/ldycoi.html Has the names of the parishes and the dates when records start. Also the FHL film number. They're always filming and cataloging so it is best to check the catalog yourself if the records are indicated as locally held. However one immediately runs into problems. Eh.....like, where are all these places?!!! PRONI has some useful maps. These days you always start at http://www.rootsireland.ie/ because that'll uncover for you everything that is indexed and on line. Then you copy and paste what the local Centre said are its sources into your handy-dandy spreadsheet. Then you look at Fianna or whatever to ID what isn't indexed and you've not searched. Then you determine if those are on the Internet or in the FHL. Here's Fianna's Antrim page: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/county/antrim/ant-chur.html Which brings up a couple other problems:.... Like that.a parish is not always the parish you're looking for. There are a couple kinds of parishes. After St. Patrick did in all the Irish gods (another destructive Brit let lose in Ireland......), they organized things into parishes, eventually. By the time of the Reformation in the early 1500s in Ireland, well, parts of Ireland. Nix Ulster... There were parishes and churches. As in England and Scotland the Reformed church just took them over, ejected the monks and nuns, sold off the properties, ravaged the churches of religious goods, etc. The parish, in England, Scotland, and Ireland, was an arm of the civil government in that it kept BMDs and fed the poor. The church probated wills, etc, etc. And so it continued till the mid 1800s when the Catholics were emancipated. Around then too the established church was separated from civil functions, like probating wills and keeping official BMDs. THus Civil Registration. The parishes were then named 'Civil Parishes' and continued to act like townships (here in the USA) -- a small unit of civil administration. They correspond to the old Church of Ireland system which corresponded with what arose in the centuries after St. Patrick. And which still administers its parishes through them. At Emancipation the Catholics set up their own parish system. They took a look about and noted that in the ensuing centuries populations had moved about. Some civil parishes were too heaviliy populated for one church and some were very sparce. So they adjusted them. Consequently the Catholic parishes do not correspond to the civil. To explain how this makes it difficult I'll give this case in Limerick. I got the baptism of the lad and it of course identified his parents. The father was there in the civil parish, but no household with the mother's surname was there. I re-adjusted my viewscreen to Catholic parishes. The local Catholic parish was in several Civil parishes. The village the father's family was in was in the same Catholic parish as another village, in an adjoining Civil parish. But as it was the same Catholic parish, the two families would have attended Mass in the same church. The additional wrinkle for those with Presbyterians is that they were not organized by parishes in Ireland (unlike Scotland where the established church was Presbyterian). However very few people writing books on Irish genealogy every seem to have figured that out. They map the Presbyterian churches into civil parishes. So you, knowing your ancestor lived in this parish, check out the local Presbyterian church physically located in the same parish. But....your ancestors never went there! In fact they were sure those guys were all hell bound! They treked over the hill to a different kirk, by passing several that didn't make the grade on their way. And when they died in Canada they whispered the name of the congregation -- which is nowhere in this huge, expensive book on Irish church records that you bought! You also run into the problem with Episkies -- your ancestor left the name of the church (All Saints, St. Agnes, etc.) and your book or Fianna, etc, only have the names of parishes. Which one is All Saints? These days you can google and usually find out. Still it is aggravating. The last bit of secret information: Psst!! There are no walls between the counties in Ireland. There are actually parishes that are in two counties, straddling counties. This is hard to grasp for an American <grin>. The counties were set up by the English. The townlands and parishes are much older. Not to mention the baronies, but we will ignore them for now <grin>. I once was working on a case that started like all, kinda vague. We did some work and narrowed down the location of the sought for ancestor. We did more work and finally got him to a townland. The townland was on the border between two counties. Client paid to search the relevant church records in the county which it was in. Never found the family. Checking the estate, the estate was actually 90% in the other county. Estates evolved from medieval manors -- a notion also used by Wm Penn in Pennsylvania. They didn't survive the test of time here, either. But once they were where the local court met -- the manor. That is because there wasn't any town yet and everyone lived on the estate anyway, which had a big house. The roads, such as you had, were maintained by the lord of the manor. Everything evolved around the manor including much social life. The church was near the manor too. So I suspected these guys, noting the lack of wall between county A and B, went to church with the rest of the estate -- in the adjoining county. It's very possible they didn't even realize that their townland was in a different county from the rest. Client didn't want to continue, having become broke or depressed. Probably both. This was before the free index came on line (above) so you laboriously searched each and every church and parish. Even at PRONI this is time consuming and costly. I live in an area where 4 counties adjoin. Two don't matter because they're rural and there's nothing there (Armstrong and Indiana Counties, PA). I live in Westmoreland County and look out my window at the Allegheny. Across the river is a huge cliff and that's Allegheny County, to my west. Also the town of Tarentum which has many car dealerships. Apparently people here in Westmoreland don't buy cars there because Everybody Knows the taxes in Allegheny County are higher, due to Pittsburgh. What they don't realize is the tax is based on where you live. In any case, folk here drive 20 miles to Monroeville to buy a car. Can't convince them otherwise. Can't convince the marketing people that there is a bridge (several) and it is one market. So you can't find out what is for sale in Tarentum. The local paper lists the sales in Monroeville. The only reason we go to Monroeville is to shop. We only go to Greensburg (Westmoreland County seat) for jury duty (we don't get arrested <grin>). Seriously, I have asked the neighbors. They have never been to Greensburg but for this one reason. The river turns just south of here to avoid an immense hill (Coxcomb Hill) that it never was able to erode. It is where the Mafia used to execute people and dump the bodies. At its foot the Puckety Creek joins the Allegheny. Once the Indians used it to prey on settlers. It is the southern boundary with Allegheny County, which surrounds us on two sides. This area, New Kensington, is a small flat area, maybe 3 miles wide or so. Not a lot of cemetery space (though I live 3 blocks from Union). So most are buried elsewhere. My paternal grandparents are up Coxcomb Hill in a huge cemetery full of residents of Westmoreland County. If you think boundaries like this matter for searching burials, baptisms, etc, think again. They never lived in that county but they are buried there. Like a client of mine, trying to get Irish citizenship. We ran into many problems such as his grandfather didn't exist nor did the parents he invented in the old country so he could marry an Irish girl in Indianapolis. Someone was looking for grandpa and he made a few adjustments to extend his life, I suspect. Thank heavens, Grandma was not wanted by anyone and we did find her in Ireland. However he needed the marriage certificate of his parents. They had lived all their lives in Allegheny County in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is a pain to deal with. He had to go over and try to get the certificate. They didn't have it they claimed. He went twice! Still....no certificate. Now these people were devout Catholics. They did get married. However the diocese only lets one researcher into its sacred archives so we decided to bypass them for now. I prepared for a County Troll, where you troll all the counties, every one keeping records differently. Arrrg!! Just by luck, I started with Westmoreland, because its index was online free. What! They got married in Westmoreland. Why? No one has a clue. But they both treked off to a far away place to get married. Client did get Irish citizenship. I must add too that if it is such a nightmare to research people only two generations back, no wonder we have such a hard time a hundred years or more earlier. Same in Ireland -- they aren't always where they should be, which is why the on line indexes are so wonderful. At least one thing is now easy to do. Old Scots blessing: "May someone be able to afford bell ringing at your funeral." <grin> Linda Merle BTW ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:38:28 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] BMD 1690 - 1800 records from CHEWEM Ehhh...some mouthful there Linda, agree with everything you say!! The starting date for C of I basically start in a parish when someone decided to start them. some go back to 1600's, others start in 1800's so there is no answer to "When did church of I records start?" As for;.. "The first attempt had each county funded to hire some local eejit to locate and index records into a computer. Then the diaspora wrote letters enclosing cash." ..... I agree whole heartedly...you got some local eejit who MIGHT be able to use a computer to put records together, he in turn got a few other eejits to help, these were unemployed eejits who got a few extra pounds a week on top of their unemployment money to put in data. These eejits, in general, could not care any less about accuracy....These records are as good as using a paper bag to carry water!! I've seen some of these records and I can tell you I have had nothing but trouble from "relatives" contacting me insisting they are related...GRRRRRR and all because these eejits have put 1 + 1 together to make 3! Yes the records may look right but they are far from it..the hub of my family stem from Co. Monaghan and I've seen tree after tree on Ancestry with these "eejit records" used, they are PUBLIC TREES and becoming gospel! more GRRRRRR.. These have also been put on Familysearch by submitters who think they have their tree correct, I've looked up some of mine and can't believe my eyes!!!...even more GRRRRRRRRR The records of The Established Church of England and Ireland are public records, the Church Of Ireland are not. I have also seen indices of Church Records put together by these eejits stating records for a particular church 'don't exist/destroyed in Dublin', when in fact the records do indeed exist.... more GRRRRR.. So far, I've only had these bad experiences in Co. Monaghan...oh if only they had allowed unemployed people with a modicum of interest in Genealogy to compile them!!! Neither Familysearch, nor the submitters, nor Ancestry Tree Owners can be blamed for putting up what they believe to be true.... the fault lies, as you say, with these eejits!!!! These "expert" records have done more harm than good!!! To call them eejits is an insult to eejits!! I've even fallen out with a distant cousin I've never met because she insisted she was my g/aunt because these "records" told her so!! I could go GRRRRRR here but I won't. Some of these eejits actually believe they are now experts and are too thick to realize the damage they have done. Thankfully it doesn't annoy me as you can see! AS FOR... "Some of the people hired were more fit for herding sheep. Standards were not maintained."... This is an insult to shepherds who are quite intelligent... :-))) As for standards.... What standards??? ________________________________________ To other poster; As you can see, the best and most reliable way to get Tuam records would be for your cousin to take a spin over from Fermanagh to look at them if they are in Tuam. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ On 10/11/2011 15:52, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:59:43 +0000 (UTC) > From:lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] BMD 1690 - 1800 records from TUAM > To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <147368241.2328006.1320937183166.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Sean, I don't recall mentioning any bmds from Galway or anywhere else. I mentioned a website: > http://www.rootsireland.ie/ It is the last in a series of attempts by the Irish to provide access to BMDs in a way that didn't result in them being cursed widely on the Internet for a variety of faults or sins, while harvesting money from the diaspora (a diaspora that expects everything for nothing). > > The first attempt had each county funded to hire some local eejit to locate and index records into a computer. Then the diaspora wrote letters enclosing cash. This didn't work out too well because some counties did good but some really bad. Some of the people hired were more fit for herding sheep. Standards were not maintained. The diaspora didn't want to wait months after sending large amounts of cash to a foreign country, especially when they got no results or responses other than the canceled check. Some of course did much better. > > This attempt has aggregated the indexes into one database which is free on the Internet. Then the diaspora can do the searching themselves. They are directed to the website of the county and once they pay some cash, are provided on line with a transcription of the actual text. Or (and) they can order up a copy of the real thing. Of course it might be in the FHL but as we know from the Scots, it is not so hard to get the diaspora to pay money for what they could get free or almost if they learned a bit. They want instant access and so they pay for it. > > In many cases the indexes and records, before, could only be got by hiring someone in Dublin if not locally (not all in Dublin, but most were). Meanwhile the law prosecuted a few bishops who wouldn't let anyone see the records (parts of Limerick come to mind). While they were ruled public records, if I recall correctly, I don't know if one can get access to all of them right now. The local genealogy centre can tell you. The Limerick ones were filmed and in Dublin but no one was allowed to view them. I was dealing with a case in Limerick, which is why it is on my mind. We located the ancestor without needing to bother with the bishop, thank heavens. Or is he an archbishop? I donno...I know he's a pain, but that's all. > > It's a bit of a wide sweep to claim that no records are recorded before a certain date. Actually the CHurch of IReland records begin much earlier. However not all parishes survive due to the Four Courts Fire. Many Irish and Presbyterians were baptized in the Church of Ireland. In the first course you take in Irish genealogy they tell you ALWAYS check those records. How? Well, you just did at the site above. Try IGI. Also using Ryan "Irish Records", identify the status of parish records surrounding where your ancestor lived. It'll tell you if they were locally held or microfilmed at the date of publication of the book. > > > Happy hunting, > > Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message