Hi David, The (famous) Siege of Derry took place in 1689. The muster lists that are in Brian Mitchell's book are from 1641. So any information you have about the Siege of Derry does not apply to these muster lists. I know little about the defence of Derry in 1641-2 as my personal interests are in Antrim . Some information may be in "Scottish Covenanters and Irish Confederates" by David Stevenson. There are other books written about the period. A first stop is Bardon's history of Ulster. Moving on to 1689. It was another civil war that involved a struggle for control of three kingdoms and of course the throne in London. And while history has chosen to label the winners the loyalists (and correct, true, etc), that was only done after the war was won. At the time Ireland had endured a period in which Protestants were purged from the army and other positions of power. No doubt it felt a lot like similar times in the past and all knew it would only end in bloodshed. So when the time came to take a side, some choose to side with the government in power, which was dominated by Catholics and Jacobites and some to take a stand against the status quo. The ones who stood against it were the ones who shut the gates and held the city. The ones outside were the ones running the government at the time. You may recall Cromwell was dead by 1670 so he wasn't around. Well, maybe parts of him that were dug up were still around, but not functioning. I think they were also in England, not Ireland. Not even his head has been accused of being in Ireland in 1689. The Covenantors were of the earlier time and didn't play in the Siege. In fact if you read the history of Ulster (See Bardon or Elliott's book), you will learn that the Presbyterian church(es) in Ireland only date from this period. The first Presbytery was set up by men in Monroe's Army, the same that signed the Protestants to the Covanants, as they were, of this time. The term means different things in different times and different places. Cromwell was not Lord Protector in 1641/2 either. He was still off stage practicing his lines. Our Scottish surnames do not figure in the Muster Lists of the troups defending Derry in 1641/2 because of two reasons: 1. Londonderry was an English plantation inhabited by Irish and English plus a handful of Scots. In 1641/2 it was only a few decades since King James ascended the throne of England changing forever the relationship of England and Scotland. Before him, it was illegal and dangerous for a Scotsman to be caught in an English plantation. They were also not welcome in England's American colonies. You can learn about this in Dobson's books. In fact the book on Scottish Covananters has a section on Scots in L'Derry and their attempts to gain lands there. Attempt, note. 2. The Scots were busy in Antrim and Down. If you read this book you will read much about their preparations and fears of the government (in 1641, also dominated by Catholics and Jacobites), that they were arming themselves with aid from Scotland to rebell against the government and go "OUT" in the Rising with the Irish and Anglo Irish Confederates. As we know, they did not, perhaps because it wasn't long before things devolved into a sectarian massacre with them targeted as well as the English. Instead what happened is, in the gap caused by paralysis in London (so no army was raised to defend British interests in Ulster), a Scots army was sent to do the same. The government feared many things that came to be and various English governments have failed to understand the Ulster Scot. Lots of paperwork between officials regarding their concerns of the Ulster Scots joining a possible Rising of Irish Confederates doesn't necessarily mean that a sizable number of the Ulster Scots were actually considering it. They may well have been importing guns to defend themselves against an Irish rising. We don't know and we sure can't trust English government officials to have much of a clue as they were wrong about them again and again. There is no evidence Cromwell slaughtered Scots in Ulster that I've ever seen. Perhaps you should provide a creditable source. There are a huge number of rumors about Cromwell, many untrue. In fact the truth about him is still being uncovered. In many cases the atrocities he has been accused of in Ireland cannot be proven with contemporary evidence. I'm about to go out for the day, but I can give you the name of a book that draws that conclusion. It includes sources so you can examine them yourself and decide if it is correct or not. I suspect that if he had killed every Scot in Ireland that he'd have not had killed as many Irish and ANglo Irish as he is accused of killing. He certainly did kill all the soldiers in all the castles and cities he took. It was the 1600s. You played war by giving these guys one chance to walk out alive. If they chose to not surrender it was a fight to the death. But as I said before, he's been accused of slaughtering women and children in those towns and yet it is not at all clear that he did. Luckily I was not yet born so I have no recall. However no book I've ever read accused him of killing Ulster Scots. Though he did think about relocating them to I think Tipperary. Again, read your Bardon. That's the starting point for all discussion on the topic. And I'm gone off to have a bit of a life now..... Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mitchell" <dm60@mweb.co.za> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com, "DM Dave Mitchell DJM" <dm60@mweb.co.za>, "Seamus Doherty" <derrydoherty@aol.com> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:17:59 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] "Defenders of the Plantation of Ulster: 1641-91 Hi Linda I think we need a closer look at the events of 1641-42. Besieging Derry (yes, besieging Derry!) were many of the Laggan army (from Inishowen and the Derry vicinity), under Col. Robert Stewart (see e.g. Symington's Survey of 1654). Isn't that why our Scottish Covenanter surnames are not featuring so prominently in the early lookups? I recall reading that Cromwell and his lads killed more Presbyterian Scots in the north-west of Ireland than they did "native" Irish (Catholics and Confederates) - showing these bloody times were more about power struggles and politics than the "irreconcilable" religious differences as so often cited. (Out walking dogs, so can't refer to a suitable source right now.) Dave Mitchell Cape Town South Africa -----Original Message----- From: lmerle@comcast.net Sender: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:38:45 To: List<scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] "Defenders of the Plantation of Ulster: 1641-91 Hi folks, many seem confused as to what this book contains. It contains two lists: 1 --Muster Roll Derry A muster roll of Derry is unlikely to contain people who lived elsewhere and were probably busy defending their homes where they lived. A muster roll of Derry contains men who were mustered locally to defend their home: Derry. Who were they defending it from? The Irish! Those people with the O's in their names. What kind of plantation was Derry? English! So your Scots are not likely to be there either. The dates for this were 1641/2 . P. vi says "These men would have been drawn from estates throughout County Londonderry and neighboring counties...." The more you understand the history of the time and place, the more you will get out of it. Take Tristram Beresford, a landlord from Coleraine and Derry. Why wasn't he out defending his estate? Much was lost in the initial attack. I believe all the settlers in Agadowey were either killed or fled. I did some research at the FHL several years ago on this area. The city of Coleraine was full of refugees who were later evacuated in great desperation as they starved to death. Beresford was off defending Defending, probably the men in his company were largely his tenants. If you study his estate you'll know where those men lived. Though if my mind doesn't fail me, all the settler names were replaced by 1650. This doesn't mean they all died. It just means they didn't want to return there. Henry Osborne was a titulado (1659 census) living in the parish of Templemore (City of Derry) Henry Finch also lived there His son lived on estates at Faughanvale at Longfield Beg and Tullybrisland John Kilner was living in Mull (later renamed Eglinton) in the parish of Faughanvale 2. Defenders of Ireland Is an index to a book, not a muster roll. It documents all those who were named in contemporary sources and accounts as playing an active or supportive role in the Williamite campaign from 1689 to 1691. (p. vii). So it is much broader. So here you will find Scots names. Other warnings: in the muster rolls of 1641/2 spelling is very irregular. I am doing lookups fast. If you are a serious family historian, you will inspect these muster rolls at some point yourself, spending a lot more time perusing them. Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message