This got me doing a lot of research and looking at maps etc. What I know is this. My gg grandmother Frances Elliott was born in County Monaghan about 1814. She married jeremiah Bell in the 1830's. There is a jeremiah Bell on the Tithe applotment Books living in the townland of Figevly (now Feegavla) in Inniskeen Parish, Monaghan. Jeremiah and Frances had a son, William born about 1838. The family immigrated to Canada in 1840. In the 1842 Canadian census they are living in Fitzroy Township, carleton County, ontario. They are tenants on a farm owned by David Elliot who came about 1830 from the Kingscourt area of County Cavan, Ireland. I have determined that Frances is definitely not a daughter of David Elliott but Is probably related somehow (maybe a niece). Both the Bell & Elliott families were Wesleyan Methodist. Now , it appears that Feegavla & Kingscourt are no more than 15K apart. I think that there is a strong possibility that Jeremiah Bell, Frances Elliott, and David Elliott knew each other through the same church. Since Methodists used the C of I in those days, I am thinking I should try to track down the C of I records both at Kingscourt Cavan and at Inniskeen, Monaghan. Any other suggestions? Another question. Feegavala is in Inniskeen Parish , Monagahan and Kingscourt is in Enniskeen Parish, Cavan. Are Inniskeen & Enniskeen the same Parish although in different counties? Murray, Bell On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:18 PM, D H wrote: > Well just off hand...you've Clontibret, Inniskeen and Carrickmacross... > > > Clontibret records only have one Bell and as the bride gets married in her church you might need to look elsewhere for Bells; > > 10th Sept1867 William Bell son of George Bell of Toome, married Margaret Leathem dau of Robert Leathem of Avalreagh, witnesses Robert > > Leathem + James Sloan Performed by Archdeacon of Clogher Rev John C.Wolfe > > > 10th Sept1891 James Campbell son of Samuel Campbell of Clontibret, married Annie Elliott dau of Samuel + Isabella Elliott of Avalreagh, Clontibret, > witnesses James Finlay + Minnie Elliott Performed by Rev E.J.Bury (Annie's sister Minnie married on 4th Mar1897 to James Finlay son of John Finlay of > Avalreagh) she also had sisters Charlotte, Margaret Jane, brother Robert Donaldson Elliott, > > > So you have Bell of Toome, Elliott of Clontibret and Avalreagh.... BUT are they part of your lot?? > > St Colman's church in Clontibret would get you Elliotts!! > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/monaghan/photos/tombstones/monaghan-st-colmans/target11.html is an Elliott g/stone there > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/monaghan/photos/tombstones/monaghan-st-colmans/target2.html will get you the Minister's name/address/phone number > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/monaghan/photos/tombstones/markers.htm will get you the index to 100's of g/stone photos that I and a few > others have put on IGP site for Monaghan > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ will get you the counties list where you can search g/stones in other counties. > > Plus there is a general'search' button... > > > > On 24/11/2011 00:10, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: >> From: Murray Bell<murraybel@msn.com> >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Tithe Applotment Books.. >> To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP135FC2F9DD6AA1803D7D7B6AECE0@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> DH >> >> Good advice. Checked out some adjoining townlands in Griffiths& 1911 census. Found Bells in both on a adjoining townland-Lower Cordrummans. Can't access Tithe books on line, Will get over to the library next week to check them out. >> >> The Bells in Griffiths and the 1911 census were Church of Ireland. Do you where the nearby C of I churches were? >> >> thanks, murray > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Murray, It is very possible for a parish in Ireland to straddle counties. You need to consult a detailed map to figure out if this is so, though perhaps someone here knows this case. I ran into the situation in Tyrone.Hopefully someone here knows the details or you'll have to study it and learn it. I think what you are trying to determine is the exact location and parents of Frances Elliot? I am wondering if you have done a very thorough check in Canada of any and all death records -- both civil and obits, including county histories. Since you have a number of surnames and individuals, while you are at it, check them all. Also have you checked the on line indexes for a marriage in Ireland? It may or may not identify the names of the parents: http://www.rootsireland.ie/ Registration of children's births -- In Ireland the rule is ALWAYS check the Church of Ireland records. There were several groups of Methodists. Besides moving from the established church to the Methodists, your ancestors could have changed Methodist groups. They could have continued to attend the established church as well. Or returned to it. People aren't stamped some religion and they don't keep it for life. So you check all the records you can find. As a genealogist you should be less concerned with figuring out which Methodist group they were with and more concerned with checking all the church records you can get, just in case there was some little secret that they managed to hide or changed their minds. Looking at Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research", p. 341, in the entire chapter on Methodists, it says that in 18716 they were divided over the sacramental issue. Some adhered to Wesley's insistence on loyalty to the established church. Interestingly it says a group of this opinion met at a conference in Clones, Co. Monaghan in Oct of 1816 and formed the Primitive Methodists (6,136 members). The majority of the Wesleyan Methodists from 1816 on allowed their preachers to baptize children and give communion. Falley says, same page, only one register survives for this group, that of the Rev. Lanktree of County Down, from 1815-1849 . You have got to recall that Methodist ministers itinerated on a circuit. So what circuits (as there were at least 2 groups) Monaghan was on, I don't know. P. 343 says the Primitive Methodist baptisms are in parish records until 1878. This is a very large chapter. There is no way I am typing it into an Email. If I were researching Methodists in Ireland I would find a copy in a library and read it, taking a lot of notes. Otherwise you are like a one legged man trying to run a race: you aren't going to do too well, in your case because you failed to gather all the information you need. This is our biggest problem, as untrained family historians. So to repeat, you always check the established church records. Besides Methodists, Catholics can be found there. For a time too mixed marriages could only be performed in the established church. A priest caught marrying a Protestant and a Catholic was executed. I don't recall the exact dates because I'm a genealogist. So I always check the Church of Ireland records and let the historians worry about the details of why they are or aren't there <grin>! They may be microfilmed and in the FHL....check Fianna online if the FHL catalogue is confusing. (It can be). In any case, another thing the experts tell us is that we will often find records regarding the origin of the person in the country he/she migrated to. This is so with Ireland, where the records are not so good. They also tell us to check tombstones. I assume you did that? Sometimes there is a 15 foot obelisk that says "Native of Ballybumpup, Monaghan, daughter of John Kelly" Never so in the case of MY ancestors, but I have seen these myself. Another thing to do that you seem to be doing is do cluster research. You have a cluster of people and names in Canada, already. Research all of them thoroughly. Also check descendants. My ex husband's ancestors migrated from Ireland about 1750 from Donegal to Philadelphia (DUNCAN is the surname). One of the first inklings I got of this was a random, bored google in a genealogy database for the migrant. Turns out a granddaughter married into a prominent Kentucky family. Her origins were detailed in a county history. My ex's line never set foot in Kentucky, but there it was. So a descendant of the neighbors might have info in a bio. In another case, an unpublished manuscript detailing the history of the family of some neighbors of my ancestors gave the town of origin of my ancestors. This manuscript fell off a shelf in the library and lay on the floor open to the very page with this info --- in front of my mother and sister. Apparently someone wanted to be found! The other link besides parishes is market towns and the main roads that connected them. Your ancestors might have met at the market town. Migration along the main roads was also common in Ireland (it's easier than slogging across bogs and over mountains). Like my one client, whose ancestor in Limerick was related by DNA to the people with the surname in Kerry, not the ones in Limerick along the Shannon estuary. His ancestors lived, not surprisingly, on the main road to Kerry. It was a heck of a lot easier to get to from Kerry than the outer banks of the Shannon. Those folk aren't related by DNA at all. Of course there's an old genealogy about 'the' family that claims they descend from a crew who were chased westward by other Irish clans in Medieval times, but as it is a name related to a saint (son of the devotee of St. Michael) and St. Michael was big in that area, he had more than one devotee -- and so they are not all related to one another at all. I like to think of the hunt for exact locations and parents in Ireland as cyclical. You gather what data you can in Canada and make an attempt to locate the spot. If you can't, you must circle back around and gather more data in Canada. No one likes hearing this because they assume they already found everything in Canada or Turd, Kentucky, wherever. No, they haven't. If they don't know what else to do, they need to read an article on how to research in that time and place or take a course. Learn more, in a word. Then circle back around and try again. As someone who does this professionally and has done it for Irish migrated to Scotland and a few other places as was as America -- I can tell you it works, but a lot of people are too lazy to do it and give up after one or two attempts. The first time through we overlook many, many clues. Like in one case where the ancestors, migrating from, they claimed, Scotland, around 1870s, could not be found in Scotland. I was pretty sure they were in Ireland and did eventually trace them to County Down with a county death record that also ided the names of the wife's parents as well as the county of birth in Ireland. The husband, who had an uncommon first name and common last name, was also not in Scotland. When he was naturalized his two witnesses were first generation Irish immigrants. That took about 5 minutes to establish using censuses. If I didn't know where he was in Ireland I could have found that out by tracing those two fellas to a village in Ireland. I didn't follow up as I knew where he's hiding. I bet one of the folk in your cluster is probably 'findable'. Find his point of origin or a church record and then build a case based on circumstantial evidence for your ancestors. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murray Bell" <murraybel@msn.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:15:50 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Tithe Applotment Books..with Bells on!! This got me doing a lot of research and looking at maps etc. What I know is this. My gg grandmother Frances Elliott was born in County Monaghan about 1814. She married jeremiah Bell in the 1830's. There is a jeremiah Bell on the Tithe applotment Books living in the townland of Figevly (now Feegavla) in Inniskeen Parish, Monaghan. Jeremiah and Frances had a son, William born about 1838. The family immigrated to Canada in 1840. In the 1842 Canadian census they are living in Fitzroy Township, carleton County, ontario. They are tenants on a farm owned by David Elliot who came about 1830 from the Kingscourt area of County Cavan, Ireland. I have determined that Frances is definitely not a daughter of David Elliott but Is probably related somehow (maybe a niece). Both the Bell & Elliott families were Wesleyan Methodist. Now , it appears that Feegavla & Kingscourt are no more than 15K apart. I think that there is a strong possibility that Jeremiah Bell, Frances Elliott, and David Elliott knew each other through the same church. Since Methodists used the C of I in those days, I am thinking I should try to track down the C of I records both at Kingscourt Cavan and at Inniskeen, Monaghan. Any other suggestions? Another question. Feegavala is in Inniskeen Parish , Monagahan and Kingscourt is in Enniskeen Parish, Cavan. Are Inniskeen & Enniskeen the same Parish although in different counties? Murray, Bell On Nov 23, 2011, at 8:18 PM, D H wrote: > Well just off hand...you've Clontibret, Inniskeen and Carrickmacross... > > > Clontibret records only have one Bell and as the bride gets married in her church you might need to look elsewhere for Bells; > > 10th Sept1867 William Bell son of George Bell of Toome, married Margaret Leathem dau of Robert Leathem of Avalreagh, witnesses Robert > > Leathem + James Sloan Performed by Archdeacon of Clogher Rev John C.Wolfe > > > 10th Sept1891 James Campbell son of Samuel Campbell of Clontibret, married Annie Elliott dau of Samuel + Isabella Elliott of Avalreagh, Clontibret, > witnesses James Finlay + Minnie Elliott Performed by Rev E.J.Bury (Annie's sister Minnie married on 4th Mar1897 to James Finlay son of John Finlay of > Avalreagh) she also had sisters Charlotte, Margaret Jane, brother Robert Donaldson Elliott, > > > So you have Bell of Toome, Elliott of Clontibret and Avalreagh.... BUT are they part of your lot?? > > St Colman's church in Clontibret would get you Elliotts!! > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/monaghan/photos/tombstones/monaghan-st-colmans/target11.html is an Elliott g/stone there > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/monaghan/photos/tombstones/monaghan-st-colmans/target2.html will get you the Minister's name/address/phone number > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/monaghan/photos/tombstones/markers.htm will get you the index to 100's of g/stone photos that I and a few > others have put on IGP site for Monaghan > > http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ will get you the counties list where you can search g/stones in other counties. > > Plus there is a general'search' button... > > > > On 24/11/2011 00:10, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: >> From: Murray Bell<murraybel@msn.com> >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Tithe Applotment Books.. >> To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP135FC2F9DD6AA1803D7D7B6AECE0@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> DH >> >> Good advice. Checked out some adjoining townlands in Griffiths& 1911 census. Found Bells in both on a adjoining townland-Lower Cordrummans. Can't access Tithe books on line, Will get over to the library next week to check them out. >> >> The Bells in Griffiths and the 1911 census were Church of Ireland. Do you where the nearby C of I churches were? >> >> thanks, murray > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message