I am new to this list; however I have about 40 years of traditional genealogy in the US/American Colonies behind me. I am posting to this list in search of SI Duncan & McConaghy (of variant spellings) MEN who have not DNA tested and would be interested in doing so. There is evidence (in both historical records as well in current results of DNA) that some Duncan by surname assumed the name Duncan from a Gaelic derivative phonetic spelling of McConachy spelled as many as 22 different ways in Scotland alone. We do know that this did occur on Isle of Bute and is substantiated in various histories in addition the the library archives on Bute as well as in many McC anecdotal stories. Clan Donnachaidh has been sponsoring the Donnachaidh DNA project for several years. Among the nearly 750 test results are a group of Duncan, many who immigrated to the Colonies early in the Colonial period to mostly Virginia but other eastern environs as well. These may be found on the results website under R1b Duncan group B (there are many Duncan results also in other groups as well). There are also several groups of McC spelled variously, one which R1b McConnachie M222 group A. Duncan B and McC A share the same genetic past. These genetic matches between the surnames, however, are not confined to Duncan B & McC A. There are other close matches among the surnames substantiated by the results of those in other groups. To add some clarity to the discussion regarding surnames I further offer this: The root Gaelic personal name Donnchadh (brown warrior) went through several transitions in the Gaelic in Ireland and Scotland -- the patronymic prefix of M' , Mac, McC (meaning son of). Jerry Kelly (Irishtribes.com) a Gaelic linguistics expert and former Yale professor of the same has summarized: as you know, Duncan is an anglicization of Donnchadh (usually translated as 'Brown-Warrior'). Recently I saw Dúncán ('Fortress-cán) as a re-Gaelicization of Duncan; this Dúncán re-Gaelicization is compleetly wrong. ' There seem to be at least 7 different families of the Anglicized name McConnaughey in Ireland and Scotland. '1. MacLysaght (in Surnames of Ireland, p. 85) says that Mac Donnchaidh is a variant in Tyrone and Derry of Mac Donnchadha. (He's right. I've seen that variation in the manuscripts.) Woulfe agrees. So does Bell (Ulster Surnames, p. 54) '2. Woulfe (in Sloinnte Gaedheal Is Gall, p. 352) notes a family of the name way down in Cork. '3. In Fermanagh, it's believed that the Donaghys (presumably Mac Donnachaidh) descend from Donnchadh Ceallach Maguire. (Bell, p. 54) '4. MacLysaght says that the Mac Donnchadha / Mac Dhonnchaidh are ''a branch of the Scottish clan Robertson in east Ulster. Ballymaconaghy is near Newry.'' (Surnames of Ireland, p. 53) Relatedly, Woulfe reports the Scottish clan of the name Mac Donnchaidh ''in Perthshire This family now anglicize their name Duncan, and some of them call themselves Robertson.''Bell notes that the Scottish Clan Robertson was equally well known as the Clann Donnchaidh. The Mac Dhonnchaidh are ''a sept of Clan Robertson.'' (Bell, p. 54) '5. ''There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell ... (including) ... the MacConachies of Inverawe in Arghyllshire..'' (Bell, p. 54) '6. He also notes the MacConachies of Clan Gregor (MacGregor). (Bell, p. 54) '7. ''There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute.'' (Bell, p. 54) Jerry kindly added the following to one of the lists I follow in response to another clarifying linguistics question: A chairde, Susan had a question about whether it's possible to identify which form of a surname came first. This relates to the fact that many of the surnames we're dealing with have several anglicized forms which are often phonetic attempts at representing the original Gaelic, and sometimes even a variant form or two in Gaelic representing a grammatical change or two. Grammatical changes in Gaelic did happen / were generally agreed upon. The major stages of the Gaelic languages could be summarized as: 1. Q-Celtic 2. Proto-Irish 3. Archaic Irish (The Gaelic written tradition begins with Archaic Irish written using the ogham alphabet.) 4. Old Irish (6th - 10th centuries) 5. Middle Irish (10th-12th centuries) - Gaelic surnames come into use in the Middle Irish period 6. Early Modern Irish / Classical Modern Irish (13th-17th centuries) 7. 17th century Irish = Ce/itinn's Irish = Modern Irish 8. Destruction of the da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), i.e., the scoileanna filidheachta ('schools of prophet-poetry', aka the 'bardic schools'). These were destroyed in Ireland after 1691 and in Scotland after 1746. I believe the schools which fled to the Isle of Man after 1691 were destroyed before 1746 but I'm not sure. 9. rise of the dialects (filling the vacuum left by the destruction of the da/mhscoileanna and their single literary standard) 10. separation of Scottish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic from Irish Gaelic This separation into 3 different languages took until the late 18th century / 1st half of the 19th century. Until the end of the 17th century, changes in the standard literary language were shared among Ireland, Scotland, and Man by means of the da/mhscoileanna and the professional literary sloinnte (extended, surnamed families). Each stage above reflects changes in the language. For example, if we take the surname Mac Donncada, we can see the following changes over time. a. Middle Irish of the 10th century - Mac Donncada - basically pronounced the way it looks except the C in all Celtic languages in always pronounced as K and in between two consonants like NC you can stick the Indo-European schwa. So an English phonetic for Mac Donncada could be something like Mac Donnakada. b. Early Modern Irish of the 13th-14th centuries - Mac Donnchadha (Here I'm using the letter h to represent the buailte or dot over the consonant). CH is blown lightly across the top of the mouth. It's very hard to hear in Ulster Irish and Scottish Gaelic. GH is a gargled G, deep in the throat. So English phonetics for Mac Donnchadha could be something like Mac Donnakhagha or Mac Donnahagha or Mac Donougha or Mac Donough or Mac Donogh. c. Late Early Modern Irish of the 15th -16th centuries - Grammarians of the da/mhscoileanna generally agreed that many masculine 3rd declension nouns should be switched over to the 1st declension. Some sloinnte (extended, surnamed families) decided to spell their surnames using the new grammar. So, some families surnamed Mac Donnchadha decided to spell their surname as Mac Donnchaidh. English phonetic attempts at this would be something like Mac Donnachie / Mac Donnakhie, Mac Donnahie, Mac Dunahy, etc. Others decided to keep the older form Mac Donnchadha. d. About the same time or perhaps a little later, Grammarians of the da/mhscoileanna generally agreed that the initial consonant of a proper noun in the genitive should be aspirated (i.e., should get a buailte or dot over it, represented in English as an h after the consonant). It seems that many of the families who were open-minded about the new grammar of c. above were also receptive to this change. So many but not all who had spelled their surname as Mac Donnchadha in the 13th century came to spell their surname as Mac Dhonnchaidh by the end of the 16th century. English phonetic attempts at this would be all the phonetic forms you're already used to - Mac Conaghey, Mac Conaghie, etc. Others continued to keep the older forms (Mac Donnchadha and Mac Donnchaidh). So, in general, the more buailti/ (i.e., the more dots over consonants represented in English by the letter h), the newer the form. The fewer buailti/, the older the form. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry This is pertinent to the Scot-Irish and Scots as well as the Irish in that the Gaelic language for the better part was mostly the same. Genetic genealogy through DNA testing does not replace conventional genealogy and should be considered as simply a tool in confirming or disputing genetic relatedness. DNA will not make a lineage; however it may suggest through results with in the surname and geographic projects whether or not members of a lineage are actually related in addition to turning up many other clues as to potential ancestry and ancestral migrations which may assist those interested in pursuing these lines of inquiries. If any would like further information, do not hesitate to contact me either on or off list. Susan McConnaughey Hedeen