Hi Margaret, The destruction thing throws everyone off. It's true the records situation in Ireland can be grim, but it's because records were not kept because the institutions didn't work. A parish system that functioned in England and Scotland and Wales didn't work at all in Ireland, for example. Lots of things that worked elsewhere didn't work here, including assimilation of the British natives. Worked more or less in Scotland and Wales. Didn't work at all in Ireland. Moving on to the non-existence of public education and outlawing Irish. The latter was probably the fatal error as it ensured that the people in the Gaeltachts could not assimilate, even if they wanted to. It was really stupid, but hindsights' a hundred percent, as they say. The other gotcha is that almost all Irish courses and books are written for researching Catholics. The process is different for Protestants simply because they are more likely to be named in the kinds of records that we have, earlier than the 19th century: muster lists, etc, etc. It's good to use a book like Ryan "Irish Records", or the Fianna website, to ID all the easy to get types of records, btw. The records at www.familysearch.org can save you a bundle of money -- though we appreciate your support of Emerald Ancestors! Sometimes indexes are not right and two different indexes helps a lot too. I do have Kidd's -- but in in Carriden in West Lothian, Scotland, in the late 1600s (or so I believe today <grin>). The stretch of coast that is now southeastern Scotland and northeastern England was settled by waves of Angles, as we call them now, Germanic people from the lowlands. Some probably living in the lost Doggerland, sunken 6000 years ago. Some were in situ before the Romans, it is now believed by some, among them probably my father's ancestors. In any case they all spoke the same language -- one of the ancestors of English, for over 2000 years there. In fact it was all one kingdom, after a period of being many small kingdoms, all speaking the same tongue. To the west and north were Celts. So when it came to taking surnames, they all ended up with the same ones. I am always finding my Durham surnames in Scotland too. The Bells were one of the larger Border clans: http://www.clanbell.org/ Thus you find a lot of them fled to Ulster when King James started cleaning house in the early 1600s. Full list here: http://www.bordergathering.co.uk/clans.asp . Once King James shut down the reiving they had to do something to survive. Most moved, many to the areas that were becoming industrialized, which is why Durham, in my case. We all know about the McNutts. Just don't try selling us any land <grin>. My personal experience with the Border clans (via an Internet list I started) is they are far meaner than we are. They caused much high blood pressure. I had to find someone else to take the list. Intermarriage with the Irish has mellowed us out. (Pass the harp and the mead, please....) Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 7:30:04 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Linda! THANKS ever so much in responding!!! That is GREAT! Thanks clearing the waters about the records destruction "thing". I am a member of Ancestry.ca and they had a "new" thing about Irish Genealogy, but I've found that Ancestry tends to be super slanted towards The US. I was able to "find" the Bell who came to Canada in the 1916 Census for Saskatchewan and worked my way back to his birth in Ireland. His Own unusual first name (I was told it was "Abrahm", but turns out it Was "Abraham" (so obviously we're talking Protestant here, not RC), and found his baptism on Hugh Wallis' IGI site. Then went to the Emeraldancestors (one of the websites you mentioned - thank you), and found the Civil Registration of his birth. That helped a lot. There were 2 Abraham Bells, both born around the same time (probably cousins of some sort) in Antrim. Emeraldancestors also had the Civil Registration Of Abraham's parents, so I've sent for that. I've done some sleuthing on the general Bell family. They were very prolific, and seemed to straddle the border between England and Scotland. That probably explains why your ancestor was in Durham. Incidentally, I too Have ancestors from Durham. Eggleston to be exact. Kidd. And that name is In Scotland, England AND Ireland. So much for people "staying put" and not "moving more than 10 miles from the place they were born". Ha! Anyway, THANKS for your reply. I'll definitely have to immerse myself in Irish genealogy. My McNutt ancestors came from Ireland (Donegal province) To the US, and then to Canada. I've been able to trace them back to Scotland (McNaughtons)and then back to Charlemagne. Hope you have a fantastic year in 2012!! Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: December-30-11 7:21 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Margaret, I'm assuming you are 'here' because the Bells were Protestant. Of course most Irish people were Catholic and so most Irish genealogy courses and methodologies focus on Catholic records, etc. Our area of expertise here is Protestants and their records. Hopefully you are in the right place. If you're talking the 1870s there is probably at least one generation to go yet in civil registration. You can get much free at the FHL. In fact the indexes are online. See their four record collections here: https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084 I have also used a commercial site: http://www.emeraldancestors.com/index.asp An index to many church records is here: http://www.rootsireland.ie/ . Some of the records may be in the FHL . There are many myths about the Four Courts Fire in 1922. One of them is that all the records were destroyed. However what was destroyed were several record groups, largely wills and Church of Ireland records. Also some Parliamentary records. Most Irish people did not write wills at all. They had nothing to leave to any descendants. Most did not attend the Church of Ireland. Most also were not identified in old Parliamentary records because they were poor tenant farmers. So actually this event had very little impact on us, descended, as a list member here likes to say, from the third spearman from the left. Furthermore it's generally true throughout Irish history that the further you get from Dublin the less likely there is of any mention of your ancestors occuring in its records. Antrim is very far from Dublin. Many efforts were made after the fire to overcome the lose. There are secondary collections of wills and will indexes as well as a many collections made by prominant geneaologists. These collections are microfilmed and in the FHL. However expensive genealogists were employed to find or invent the right past for families with new money so that they could purchase a title. The third spearman from the left and his ancestors had no money to hire genealogists or interest in obtaining a title (though they may have bragged about descent from some such in the local pub when drinking too much <grin>). The censuses were not destroyed in the Fire but by stupid people who couldn't see the need to keep them around. Sometimes people think they were. You basically need to learn to do Irish genealogy. Can't be taught in an email, alas! There are some good books out there. "A Genealogists Guide to Discovering your Irish Ancestors" is one. Most of them focus on 19th century records because going earlier than that is very difficult. The church records peter out about 1820 or so, sometimes much later. However there are census substitutes (Tithe Applotment and Griffiths Valuation) and many other records for the 19th century (directories, local history, etc). Earlier records favor Protestants: muster lists, freemens lists, etc. Local history is important here too. If you can identify the precise townland where they lived in Aghoghill that would help ID the estate. You can pursue estate records. If you can id the precise religion that will also help you out. Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" is the ultimate book on Irish genealogy. It's a two volume work. It has chapters on each religion that provide its history in Ireland and where to go to find records. I think we recently had a discussion on Methodist records. Apparently the majority of baptisms and marriages (there were several types of Methodists) are in the Church of Ireland. I have Bells but they were in Durham, England -- apparently headed south from the Borders. Not too long ago found out the name of my ancestress' father after a very long search due to a proliferation of chapels of ease and a huge number of Bells. Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 10:00:44 PM Subject: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Dear Fellow Listers, I have recently acquired a daughter-in-law, so am in the process of adding her line onto my family tree. I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin. I have been led to understand that a lot of records were destroyed in 1922, including Census that might help "clear the muddied waters'. Any suggestions? Thanks, very muchly, advance for any and all assistance. Yours truly, Margaret McNutt Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Once again, THANKS, Linda!!! The Bells that I'm trying to pin down were Presbyterian (Abraham Bell was baptised in the Ahoghill Presybterian Church) and if I've "found" the right marriage for his parents, they were married in a Presbyterian Church too. Don't know if they were ever involved in military stuff, but most likely, so another great area to look at. About my McNutt's - yeah. One of my clan was either the greatest entrepreneur in early Canadian history, or the worst "land speculation rogue" you can think of. My Dad was always very careful to say that the "Colonel" was a "Cousin" of the progenitor of our line, and not a direct ancestor. I prefer to think that I am 5th generation "Canadian" on my Dad's side. Hee, Hee. I've used Scotland's people in the past to "sort out" very confusing lines on my husband's side, and the Free BMD to get a handle on stuff in the UK. You are quite correct in saying that it's sometimes best to look at more than one index, and then if more than 50% certain, to order in the certificate/film/ etc. etc. I get your point about the clearances that good old King Jimmy did. I was Curious about the "Ulster Plantation" thing, and thought that my McNutts and "my" Bells were part of that. I've since learned that Antrim was not in the Plantation thing, but Donegal was (if memory serves, Donegal was a "servitor" settlement?). If so, the Bells fleeing to Ireland to escape what KJ was doing makes sense. Similarly, military service was "the family way" so receiving a "servitor settlement" in Donegal by my McNutt ancestors makes perfect sense. It is interesting that the reason my line settled in Nova Scotia was getting a homestead for recognition of military service in the English Forces in the mid 1700's. I'm also finding some of my family names from Durham and Westmorland "up in Scotland" too, and trying to unweave the tangled web is a big challenge. Thanks again for your help and your tips! Are we having fun, yet? Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: December-30-11 7:53 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Margaret, The destruction thing throws everyone off. It's true the records situation in Ireland can be grim, but it's because records were not kept because the institutions didn't work. A parish system that functioned in England and Scotland and Wales didn't work at all in Ireland, for example. Lots of things that worked elsewhere didn't work here, including assimilation of the British natives. Worked more or less in Scotland and Wales. Didn't work at all in Ireland. Moving on to the non-existence of public education and outlawing Irish. The latter was probably the fatal error as it ensured that the people in the Gaeltachts could not assimilate, even if they wanted to. It was really stupid, but hindsights' a hundred percent, as they say. The other gotcha is that almost all Irish courses and books are written for researching Catholics. The process is different for Protestants simply because they are more likely to be named in the kinds of records that we have, earlier than the 19th century: muster lists, etc, etc. It's good to use a book like Ryan "Irish Records", or the Fianna website, to ID all the easy to get types of records, btw. The records at www.familysearch.org can save you a bundle of money -- though we appreciate your support of Emerald Ancestors! Sometimes indexes are not right and two different indexes helps a lot too. I do have Kidd's -- but in in Carriden in West Lothian, Scotland, in the late 1600s (or so I believe today <grin>). The stretch of coast that is now southeastern Scotland and northeastern England was settled by waves of Angles, as we call them now, Germanic people from the lowlands. Some probably living in the lost Doggerland, sunken 6000 years ago. Some were in situ before the Romans, it is now believed by some, among them probably my father's ancestors. In any case they all spoke the same language -- one of the ancestors of English, for over 2000 years there. In fact it was all one kingdom, after a period of being many small kingdoms, all speaking the same tongue. To the west and north were Celts. So when it came to taking surnames, they all ended up with the same ones. I am always finding my Durham surnames in Scotland too. The Bells were one of the larger Border clans: http://www.clanbell.org/ Thus you find a lot of them fled to Ulster when King James started cleaning house in the early 1600s. Full list here: http://www.bordergathering.co.uk/clans.asp . Once King James shut down the reiving they had to do something to survive. Most moved, many to the areas that were becoming industrialized, which is why Durham, in my case. We all know about the McNutts. Just don't try selling us any land <grin>. My personal experience with the Border clans (via an Internet list I started) is they are far meaner than we are. They caused much high blood pressure. I had to find someone else to take the list. Intermarriage with the Irish has mellowed us out. (Pass the harp and the mead, please....) Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 7:30:04 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Linda! THANKS ever so much in responding!!! That is GREAT! Thanks clearing the waters about the records destruction "thing". I am a member of Ancestry.ca and they had a "new" thing about Irish Genealogy, but I've found that Ancestry tends to be super slanted towards The US. I was able to "find" the Bell who came to Canada in the 1916 Census for Saskatchewan and worked my way back to his birth in Ireland. His Own unusual first name (I was told it was "Abrahm", but turns out it Was "Abraham" (so obviously we're talking Protestant here, not RC), and found his baptism on Hugh Wallis' IGI site. Then went to the Emeraldancestors (one of the websites you mentioned - thank you), and found the Civil Registration of his birth. That helped a lot. There were 2 Abraham Bells, both born around the same time (probably cousins of some sort) in Antrim. Emeraldancestors also had the Civil Registration Of Abraham's parents, so I've sent for that. I've done some sleuthing on the general Bell family. They were very prolific, and seemed to straddle the border between England and Scotland. That probably explains why your ancestor was in Durham. Incidentally, I too Have ancestors from Durham. Eggleston to be exact. Kidd. And that name is In Scotland, England AND Ireland. So much for people "staying put" and not "moving more than 10 miles from the place they were born". Ha! Anyway, THANKS for your reply. I'll definitely have to immerse myself in Irish genealogy. My McNutt ancestors came from Ireland (Donegal province) To the US, and then to Canada. I've been able to trace them back to Scotland (McNaughtons)and then back to Charlemagne. Hope you have a fantastic year in 2012!! Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: December-30-11 7:21 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Margaret, I'm assuming you are 'here' because the Bells were Protestant. Of course most Irish people were Catholic and so most Irish genealogy courses and methodologies focus on Catholic records, etc. Our area of expertise here is Protestants and their records. Hopefully you are in the right place. If you're talking the 1870s there is probably at least one generation to go yet in civil registration. You can get much free at the FHL. In fact the indexes are online. See their four record collections here: https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084 I have also used a commercial site: http://www.emeraldancestors.com/index.asp An index to many church records is here: http://www.rootsireland.ie/ . Some of the records may be in the FHL . There are many myths about the Four Courts Fire in 1922. One of them is that all the records were destroyed. However what was destroyed were several record groups, largely wills and Church of Ireland records. Also some Parliamentary records. Most Irish people did not write wills at all. They had nothing to leave to any descendants. Most did not attend the Church of Ireland. Most also were not identified in old Parliamentary records because they were poor tenant farmers. So actually this event had very little impact on us, descended, as a list member here likes to say, from the third spearman from the left. Furthermore it's generally true throughout Irish history that the further you get from Dublin the less likely there is of any mention of your ancestors occuring in its records. Antrim is very far from Dublin. Many efforts were made after the fire to overcome the lose. There are secondary collections of wills and will indexes as well as a many collections made by prominant geneaologists. These collections are microfilmed and in the FHL. However expensive genealogists were employed to find or invent the right past for families with new money so that they could purchase a title. The third spearman from the left and his ancestors had no money to hire genealogists or interest in obtaining a title (though they may have bragged about descent from some such in the local pub when drinking too much <grin>). The censuses were not destroyed in the Fire but by stupid people who couldn't see the need to keep them around. Sometimes people think they were. You basically need to learn to do Irish genealogy. Can't be taught in an email, alas! There are some good books out there. "A Genealogists Guide to Discovering your Irish Ancestors" is one. Most of them focus on 19th century records because going earlier than that is very difficult. The church records peter out about 1820 or so, sometimes much later. However there are census substitutes (Tithe Applotment and Griffiths Valuation) and many other records for the 19th century (directories, local history, etc). Earlier records favor Protestants: muster lists, freemens lists, etc. Local history is important here too. If you can identify the precise townland where they lived in Aghoghill that would help ID the estate. You can pursue estate records. If you can id the precise religion that will also help you out. Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" is the ultimate book on Irish genealogy. It's a two volume work. It has chapters on each religion that provide its history in Ireland and where to go to find records. I think we recently had a discussion on Methodist records. Apparently the majority of baptisms and marriages (there were several types of Methodists) are in the Church of Ireland. I have Bells but they were in Durham, England -- apparently headed south from the Borders. Not too long ago found out the name of my ancestress' father after a very long search due to a proliferation of chapels of ease and a huge number of Bells. Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 10:00:44 PM Subject: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Dear Fellow Listers, I have recently acquired a daughter-in-law, so am in the process of adding her line onto my family tree. I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin. I have been led to understand that a lot of records were destroyed in 1922, including Census that might help "clear the muddied waters'. Any suggestions? Thanks, very muchly, advance for any and all assistance. Yours truly, Margaret McNutt Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message