Well it is the same in other countries..if not worse. even changing names of places! /I found some of mine in Lancaster/ County, later York County, and is now Adams County, /Pennsylvania/ so how do I look for them?? These people never moved yet lived in 3 different places. Others lived in one state, the state lines were redrawn and my kin ended up in another state without moving, so now I've to find them all again in another state..grrrrrr Another was in Rhodesia but it changed its name too, so it is not just an Irish thing. In fact the Irish variations are just spelling variations....I wish it was just that for US stuff!! DH On 17/12/2011 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1548217604-1323981747-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1146968921-@b27.c19.bise7.blackberry> > > Content-Type: text/plain > > How about variations in place names? > > For some while now I've been collecting spelling alternatives for Killymallaght, a townland in co. Londonderry. > > > From official sources only, my "score" is now .... > > 53 not out! > > Oh how we love the Irish in their (our) glorious confusion. > > Can't wait to meet up again with some old schoolmasters who were somewhat tolerant of my "natural and cultural heritage" that allowed "creative spelling". > > Sincerely > > Dave Mitchell > Cape Town > South Africa

Hi Dave, That makes sense (finding some in Longford). Somewhere in researching the surname I learned that a family with this name had been run out of the area by some other Irish clan. They relocated to Connacht, usually Clare. But as the name means son of the devotee of St. Michael, and he had more than one, they're not all related. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 5:15:06 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks This would be Newtowncashel area of Longford, on eastern shore of Lough Ree, just north of Athlone Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks /Date:/ Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:07:04 +0000 (UTC) /In-Reply-To:/ <4EEA6253.704@utvinternet.com> Hi Dave, I did research for a Melville in the USA. In Limerick the name was Mulvihill. However not all the Mulvihills in Limerick are related either. The ones around the Shannon mouth are not related to his -- up in the hills on the road to Kerry. He's related to the Kerry Mulvihills, who have a 'private marker' -- a rare DNA mutation. What county were you with these Mulvihills? BTW, there's a bunch of them in the local cemetery. I never saw them until I began research on this family. Then one day I walked up the hill through the cemetery with my dogs, as I had done innumerable times before -- and there was a huge tombstone that said Mulvihill. All I know of this family is they were from Pittsburgh, well off, and early patrons of the local Catholic church. By early I mean late 1800s/early 1900s....New Kensington is an industrial age invention, home of Alcoa, that didn't exist much earlier. Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Linda yoused to kid my husband by saying "not out of the United States yet". Well my Ross found Robert McClain's Father in Killran Argyleshire ,John MacLean borb 1738 and left Scotland about 1760 to Nothern Ireland where he married Margaret Linn . In 1765 he emigrated to America settling on Goose Creek in Loudon VA. He removed to Uniontown ,Pa and finally in Monroe,Butler County ,Ohio.John was a Lochbuie Clan.

I am new to this list; however I have about 40 years of traditional genealogy in the US/American Colonies behind me. I am posting to this list in search of SI Duncan & McConaghy (of variant spellings) MEN who have not DNA tested and would be interested in doing so. There is evidence (in both historical records as well in current results of DNA) that some Duncan by surname assumed the name Duncan from a Gaelic derivative phonetic spelling of McConachy spelled as many as 22 different ways in Scotland alone. We do know that this did occur on Isle of Bute and is substantiated in various histories in addition the the library archives on Bute as well as in many McC anecdotal stories. Clan Donnachaidh has been sponsoring the Donnachaidh DNA project for several years. Among the nearly 750 test results are a group of Duncan, many who immigrated to the Colonies early in the Colonial period to mostly Virginia but other eastern environs as well. These may be found on the results website under R1b Duncan group B (there are many Duncan results also in other groups as well). There are also several groups of McC spelled variously, one which R1b McConnachie M222 group A. Duncan B and McC A share the same genetic past. These genetic matches between the surnames, however, are not confined to Duncan B & McC A. There are other close matches among the surnames substantiated by the results of those in other groups. To add some clarity to the discussion regarding surnames I further offer this: The root Gaelic personal name Donnchadh (brown warrior) went through several transitions in the Gaelic in Ireland and Scotland -- the patronymic prefix of M' , Mac, McC (meaning son of). Jerry Kelly (Irishtribes.com) a Gaelic linguistics expert and former Yale professor of the same has summarized: as you know, Duncan is an anglicization of Donnchadh (usually translated as 'Brown-Warrior'). Recently I saw Dúncán ('Fortress-cán) as a re-Gaelicization of Duncan; this Dúncán re-Gaelicization is compleetly wrong. ' There seem to be at least 7 different families of the Anglicized name McConnaughey in Ireland and Scotland. '1. MacLysaght (in Surnames of Ireland, p. 85) says that Mac Donnchaidh is a variant in Tyrone and Derry of Mac Donnchadha. (He's right. I've seen that variation in the manuscripts.) Woulfe agrees. So does Bell (Ulster Surnames, p. 54) '2. Woulfe (in Sloinnte Gaedheal Is Gall, p. 352) notes a family of the name way down in Cork. '3. In Fermanagh, it's believed that the Donaghys (presumably Mac Donnachaidh) descend from Donnchadh Ceallach Maguire. (Bell, p. 54) '4. MacLysaght says that the Mac Donnchadha / Mac Dhonnchaidh are ''a branch of the Scottish clan Robertson in east Ulster. Ballymaconaghy is near Newry.'' (Surnames of Ireland, p. 53) Relatedly, Woulfe reports the Scottish clan of the name Mac Donnchaidh ''in Perthshire This family now anglicize their name Duncan, and some of them call themselves Robertson.''Bell notes that the Scottish Clan Robertson was equally well known as the Clann Donnchaidh. The Mac Dhonnchaidh are ''a sept of Clan Robertson.'' (Bell, p. 54) '5. ''There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell ... (including) ... the MacConachies of Inverawe in Arghyllshire..'' (Bell, p. 54) '6. He also notes the MacConachies of Clan Gregor (MacGregor). (Bell, p. 54) '7. ''There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute.'' (Bell, p. 54) Jerry kindly added the following to one of the lists I follow in response to another clarifying linguistics question: A chairde, Susan had a question about whether it's possible to identify which form of a surname came first. This relates to the fact that many of the surnames we're dealing with have several anglicized forms which are often phonetic attempts at representing the original Gaelic, and sometimes even a variant form or two in Gaelic representing a grammatical change or two. Grammatical changes in Gaelic did happen / were generally agreed upon. The major stages of the Gaelic languages could be summarized as: 1. Q-Celtic 2. Proto-Irish 3. Archaic Irish (The Gaelic written tradition begins with Archaic Irish written using the ogham alphabet.) 4. Old Irish (6th - 10th centuries) 5. Middle Irish (10th-12th centuries) - Gaelic surnames come into use in the Middle Irish period 6. Early Modern Irish / Classical Modern Irish (13th-17th centuries) 7. 17th century Irish = Ce/itinn's Irish = Modern Irish 8. Destruction of the da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), i.e., the scoileanna filidheachta ('schools of prophet-poetry', aka the 'bardic schools'). These were destroyed in Ireland after 1691 and in Scotland after 1746. I believe the schools which fled to the Isle of Man after 1691 were destroyed before 1746 but I'm not sure. 9. rise of the dialects (filling the vacuum left by the destruction of the da/mhscoileanna and their single literary standard) 10. separation of Scottish Gaelic and Manx Gaelic from Irish Gaelic This separation into 3 different languages took until the late 18th century / 1st half of the 19th century. Until the end of the 17th century, changes in the standard literary language were shared among Ireland, Scotland, and Man by means of the da/mhscoileanna and the professional literary sloinnte (extended, surnamed families). Each stage above reflects changes in the language. For example, if we take the surname Mac Donncada, we can see the following changes over time. a. Middle Irish of the 10th century - Mac Donncada - basically pronounced the way it looks except the C in all Celtic languages in always pronounced as K and in between two consonants like NC you can stick the Indo-European schwa. So an English phonetic for Mac Donncada could be something like Mac Donnakada. b. Early Modern Irish of the 13th-14th centuries - Mac Donnchadha (Here I'm using the letter h to represent the buailte or dot over the consonant). CH is blown lightly across the top of the mouth. It's very hard to hear in Ulster Irish and Scottish Gaelic. GH is a gargled G, deep in the throat. So English phonetics for Mac Donnchadha could be something like Mac Donnakhagha or Mac Donnahagha or Mac Donougha or Mac Donough or Mac Donogh. c. Late Early Modern Irish of the 15th -16th centuries - Grammarians of the da/mhscoileanna generally agreed that many masculine 3rd declension nouns should be switched over to the 1st declension. Some sloinnte (extended, surnamed families) decided to spell their surnames using the new grammar. So, some families surnamed Mac Donnchadha decided to spell their surname as Mac Donnchaidh. English phonetic attempts at this would be something like Mac Donnachie / Mac Donnakhie, Mac Donnahie, Mac Dunahy, etc. Others decided to keep the older form Mac Donnchadha. d. About the same time or perhaps a little later, Grammarians of the da/mhscoileanna generally agreed that the initial consonant of a proper noun in the genitive should be aspirated (i.e., should get a buailte or dot over it, represented in English as an h after the consonant). It seems that many of the families who were open-minded about the new grammar of c. above were also receptive to this change. So many but not all who had spelled their surname as Mac Donnchadha in the 13th century came to spell their surname as Mac Dhonnchaidh by the end of the 16th century. English phonetic attempts at this would be all the phonetic forms you're already used to - Mac Conaghey, Mac Conaghie, etc. Others continued to keep the older forms (Mac Donnchadha and Mac Donnchaidh). So, in general, the more buailti/ (i.e., the more dots over consonants represented in English by the letter h), the newer the form. The fewer buailti/, the older the form. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry This is pertinent to the Scot-Irish and Scots as well as the Irish in that the Gaelic language for the better part was mostly the same. Genetic genealogy through DNA testing does not replace conventional genealogy and should be considered as simply a tool in confirming or disputing genetic relatedness. DNA will not make a lineage; however it may suggest through results with in the surname and geographic projects whether or not members of a lineage are actually related in addition to turning up many other clues as to potential ancestry and ancestral migrations which may assist those interested in pursuing these lines of inquiries. If any would like further information, do not hesitate to contact me either on or off list. Susan McConnaughey Hedeen

Hi Dave, My Irish is extremely rudimentary, and I am not being humble but stating a fact. However I recall that there are problems with Irish because it is so different at different ends of Ireland, in the different Gaeltachts. So someone came up with a Dublin version which makes no one happy. In some circles to speak actual Ulster Gaelic is considered the best. I do know a fellow who speaks it and we could ask him your question if no one else knows which is proper Ulster Irish. I seem to recall being taught that Sionnach was fox and I was learning Dublin Irish (forgive me....). Apparently the differences can be used to help identify where your ancestors came from. The A in McCamie (etc) is supposedly a sound unique to Ulster Irish. Or so I was told. And I learned that Mulvihill in America is Melville <GRIN>. They forgot that one one census. So the American genealogist employed before me couldn't find them. She was right that she didn't do Irish genealogy <grin>. I stuck to my principles and looked the name up in McLysaght and became a heroine thanks to him. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:08:32 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks Eye bee leave yew...Linda. As Boyd says 'Most people could not read nor write - check out the 1901 Census'... it is these spellings etc that actually add a little colour to our ancestors rather than just a list of names/age and are a wonderful little insight into the people involved. ...'education became compulsory in 1880 and it obviously took a generation for that to work its way through to adult spelling in documents'...even carried into 1911 which shows how slow standardization (=sterilization) took... While at school Gaelic was taught..my son is in school but his Gaelic is completely different to what I learned, for example a Fox was 'Madra Rua'..now it is 'Sionnach', but if my sons ask me to help with a word he is told it is wrong.. so which one of us is correct?? A fluent Gaelic speaker in Kerry does not understand what a fluent Gaelic speaker from Donegal is saying....because it is a different language! as is Scot's Gaelic, Manx Gaelic etc...While they have a common origin, each one developed over time independently....Similarly names changed in different areas. Times were hard in 1700's/1800's so who cared if their name was spelled correctly or not...many didn't even know how to spell it, they could pronounce it and that is all that mattered to them. I haven't even checked my own baptism record.. I presume it is correct, but what if it is not? Do future generations presume I could not spell if it is incorrect? How many people today check their church records?? Dh (P.S. My grandparents weren't illiterate.. :-)) but they can't tell me what the correct spelling is due a slight difficulty....they died!!) On 15/12/2011 17:59, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > From:lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1001577109.1218746.1323968129154.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Dave, we need to give up the notion of 'correctness' when researching surnames. That's a 20th century notion -- a correct way to spell a surname. It assumes the person spelling it knows what the correct spelling is, but when your grandparents were illiterate, how could they possibly tell you what the correct spelling 'is'? There is no correct spelling because the name actually had never been written down, except by some priests and clerks. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This would be Newtowncashel area of Longford, on eastern shore of Lough Ree, just north of Athlone Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks /Date:/ Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:07:04 +0000 (UTC) /In-Reply-To:/ <4EEA6253.704@utvinternet.com> Hi Dave, I did research for a Melville in the USA. In Limerick the name was Mulvihill. However not all the Mulvihills in Limerick are related either. The ones around the Shannon mouth are not related to his -- up in the hills on the road to Kerry. He's related to the Kerry Mulvihills, who have a 'private marker' -- a rare DNA mutation. What county were you with these Mulvihills? BTW, there's a bunch of them in the local cemetery. I never saw them until I began research on this family. Then one day I walked up the hill through the cemetery with my dogs, as I had done innumerable times before -- and there was a huge tombstone that said Mulvihill. All I know of this family is they were from Pittsburgh, well off, and early patrons of the local Catholic church. By early I mean late 1800s/early 1900s....New Kensington is an industrial age invention, home of Alcoa, that didn't exist much earlier. Linda Merle

Amen! They do indeed. My daughter was just telling me a friend bought her a visit with a psychic for her birthday. All her recently deceased relatives came and she got a lecture from her grandfather on upholding family traditions. So I didn't have to give her one <grin>. Such a great dad -- useful even though he's passed on! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lunney Family" <jglunney@eircom.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:56:25 PM Subject: [S-I] thanks for kind comments! Thanks to those who have been nice to me about my efforts to be encouraging! especially Deb and Sharon. Relatives stick together! a good old Ulster and Scots tradition Linde ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dave, I did research for a Melville in the USA. In Limerick the name was Mulvihill. However not all the Mulvihills in Limerick are related either. The ones around the Shannon mouth are not related to his -- up in the hills on the road to Kerry. He's related to the Kerry Mulvihills, who have a 'private marker' -- a rare DNA mutation. What county were you with these Mulvihills? BTW, there's a bunch of them in the local cemetery. I never saw them until I began research on this family. Then one day I walked up the hill through the cemetery with my dogs, as I had done innumerable times before -- and there was a huge tombstone that said Mulvihill. All I know of this family is they were from Pittsburgh, well off, and early patrons of the local Catholic church. By early I mean late 1800s/early 1900s....New Kensington is an industrial age invention, home of Alcoa, that didn't exist much earlier. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:10:43 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks In fact it is a lot of sense as they are differentiating between the two, a statement that they are not related. In the last area I lived there were loads of Mulvihills, anyone looking at records could presume they would all be related somehow...wrong! But pronounce one wrong and I was instantly corrected as they each pronounced it differently! So you had Mulvihill pronounced Mul va hill.. Mul vee hill and Mul vih hill and some felt insulted if their name was mispronounced. Church records don't pronounce spellings... Send my regards to Samule No Limits!! On 15/12/2011 17:59, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > All those folk who say, "We are the Grays with an "a" and not that other > > crowd who spell their name with an "e"" are talking....well, not as lot of > > sense. This correctness of spelling is a 20th century confection. My > > McClementses have no less than 13 different spellings from Lamond to > > McLummints. You can just hear my great grandfather, when asked what his > > name was for the census saying, "Samule MuLummints" in his broad Ulster > > twang. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I recently mentioned the Ulster Covenant in a post.. a few people have emailed me asking me to look up names. I wouldn't have time to look up all these surnames. These are all online at PRONI http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/family_history.htm then select Covenant... The archive of the Ulster Unionist Council, held by the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI), contains just under half a million original signatures and addresses of the men who, on 28 September 1912, signed the Ulster Covenant, and of the women who signed the parallel Declaration. In total, the Covenant was signed by 237,368 men, and the Declaration by 234,046 women --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- also...databases; Name Search currently includes the following set of indexes: Extract of Groves Manuscript T808/7808 index to pre-1858 wills (which are to be found in various collections in PRONI) and a selection of diocesan will and administration bond indexes surviving fragments of the 1740 and the 1766 religious census returns 1775 dissenters petitions pre-1920 coroners' inquest papers

Thanks to those who have been nice to me about my efforts to be encouraging! especially Deb and Sharon. Relatives stick together! a good old Ulster and Scots tradition Linde

Thanks but I found what I needed to work on to connect Richard Swan's lot to my lot, via 2 other families. [S-I] Re; Scotch-Irish Merchants in Colonial America

In fact it is a lot of sense as they are differentiating between the two, a statement that they are not related. In the last area I lived there were loads of Mulvihills, anyone looking at records could presume they would all be related somehow...wrong! But pronounce one wrong and I was instantly corrected as they each pronounced it differently! So you had Mulvihill pronounced Mul va hill.. Mul vee hill and Mul vih hill and some felt insulted if their name was mispronounced. Church records don't pronounce spellings... Send my regards to Samule No Limits!! On 15/12/2011 17:59, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > All those folk who say, "We are the Grays with an "a" and not that other > > crowd who spell their name with an "e"" are talking....well, not as lot of > > sense. This correctness of spelling is a 20th century confection. My > > McClementses have no less than 13 different spellings from Lamond to > > McLummints. You can just hear my great grandfather, when asked what his > > name was for the census saying, "Samule MuLummints" in his broad Ulster > > twang.

How about variations in place names? For some while now I've been collecting spelling alternatives for Killymallaght, a townland in co. Londonderry. >From official sources only, my "score" is now .... 53 not out! Oh how we love the Irish in their (our) glorious confusion. Can't wait to meet up again with some old schoolmasters who were somewhat tolerant of my "natural and cultural heritage" that allowed "creative spelling". Sincerely Dave Mitchell Cape Town South Africa -----Original Message----- From: D H <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> Sender: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 20:08:32 To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks Eye bee leave yew...Linda. As Boyd says 'Most people could not read nor write - check out the 1901 Census'... it is these spellings etc that actually add a little colour to our ancestors rather than just a list of names/age and are a wonderful little insight into the people involved. ...'education became compulsory in 1880 and it obviously took a generation for that to work its way through to adult spelling in documents'...even carried into 1911 which shows how slow standardization (=sterilization) took... While at school Gaelic was taught..my son is in school but his Gaelic is completely different to what I learned, for example a Fox was 'Madra Rua'..now it is 'Sionnach', but if my sons ask me to help with a word he is told it is wrong.. so which one of us is correct?? A fluent Gaelic speaker in Kerry does not understand what a fluent Gaelic speaker from Donegal is saying....because it is a different language! as is Scot's Gaelic, Manx Gaelic etc...While they have a common origin, each one developed over time independently....Similarly names changed in different areas. Times were hard in 1700's/1800's so who cared if their name was spelled correctly or not...many didn't even know how to spell it, they could pronounce it and that is all that mattered to them. I haven't even checked my own baptism record.. I presume it is correct, but what if it is not? Do future generations presume I could not spell if it is incorrect? How many people today check their church records?? Dh (P.S. My grandparents weren't illiterate.. :-)) but they can't tell me what the correct spelling is due a slight difficulty....they died!!) On 15/12/2011 17:59, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > From:lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1001577109.1218746.1323968129154.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Dave, we need to give up the notion of 'correctness' when researching surnames. That's a 20th century notion -- a correct way to spell a surname. It assumes the person spelling it knows what the correct spelling is, but when your grandparents were illiterate, how could they possibly tell you what the correct spelling 'is'? There is no correct spelling because the name actually had never been written down, except by some priests and clerks. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Eye bee leave yew...Linda. As Boyd says 'Most people could not read nor write - check out the 1901 Census'... it is these spellings etc that actually add a little colour to our ancestors rather than just a list of names/age and are a wonderful little insight into the people involved. ...'education became compulsory in 1880 and it obviously took a generation for that to work its way through to adult spelling in documents'...even carried into 1911 which shows how slow standardization (=sterilization) took... While at school Gaelic was taught..my son is in school but his Gaelic is completely different to what I learned, for example a Fox was 'Madra Rua'..now it is 'Sionnach', but if my sons ask me to help with a word he is told it is wrong.. so which one of us is correct?? A fluent Gaelic speaker in Kerry does not understand what a fluent Gaelic speaker from Donegal is saying....because it is a different language! as is Scot's Gaelic, Manx Gaelic etc...While they have a common origin, each one developed over time independently....Similarly names changed in different areas. Times were hard in 1700's/1800's so who cared if their name was spelled correctly or not...many didn't even know how to spell it, they could pronounce it and that is all that mattered to them. I haven't even checked my own baptism record.. I presume it is correct, but what if it is not? Do future generations presume I could not spell if it is incorrect? How many people today check their church records?? Dh (P.S. My grandparents weren't illiterate.. :-)) but they can't tell me what the correct spelling is due a slight difficulty....they died!!) On 15/12/2011 17:59, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > From:lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1001577109.1218746.1323968129154.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Dave, we need to give up the notion of 'correctness' when researching surnames. That's a 20th century notion -- a correct way to spell a surname. It assumes the person spelling it knows what the correct spelling is, but when your grandparents were illiterate, how could they possibly tell you what the correct spelling 'is'? There is no correct spelling because the name actually had never been written down, except by some priests and clerks.

William McAfee in his excellent CD Rom ‘Researching Derry/Londonderry Ancestors’ makes the following interesting, illuminative and informed statements based upon his experience of data-basing thousands of surnames: ‘Not surprisingly, the spelling of surnames in the original sources varied a great deal both within and between documents over the centuries. The names in these documents were entered by various officials and there is some evidence to suggest that this led to regional spelling of surnames, particularly in the earlier sources. Certainly, the spelling of surnames had become more standardised by the time of the Griffith's Printed Valuation of 1858/59. Remember too, that the originals of the seventeenth-century Hearth Money Rolls and the eighteenth-century Religious Returns were destroyed in the 1922 Four Courts fire. The only sources we now have are transcripts of those originals and many of these are typed, suggesting that they are probably a transcript of a transcript. Let's not forget that the databases are further transcripts! In transcription it is relatively easy to mistake an "e" for an "a" or an "r" for an "n" and so on.’ ‘Surnames in seventeenth-century sources were written down by officials who, if they were not familiar with the spelling of a surname, spelt it phonetically in a way that made sense to them. For example, McGoldrick can be spelt as Megolrake, McCandless as Micandlass, Ewing as Youing, Brewster as Broster and so on. However, the greatest problem with names in early sources is the fact that the spellings of some surnames in these documents are completely different from their modern equivalents e.g. in earlier documents Alexander often appears as McCalsenor or McElsinor.’ > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:19:06 +0000 > From: hallmark1@utvinternet.com > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > > Ehhhh LOL....love it! > > > This family that signed the Covenant using two different spellings were the family where one of them was the County Registrar.....even today some use > one spelling some use other. > > > > > On 15/12/2011 17:59, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > > > > Standardisation of surnames occurred really as a result of the introduction ofcivil registration of births in Ireland from 1864. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ehhhh LOL....love it! This family that signed the Covenant using two different spellings were the family where one of them was the County Registrar.....even today some use one spelling some use other. On 15/12/2011 17:59, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > > Standardisation of surnames occurred really as a result of the introduction ofcivil registration of births in Ireland from 1864.

Standardisation of surnames occurred really as a result of the introduction ofcivil registration of births in Ireland from 1864. > From: boydgray26@utvinternet.com > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 17:18:51 +0000 > Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > > Your problem is that you are looking at the 19th century with 21st century > eyes. In the 19th century, it simply was not important how your name was > spelled. No-one cared. Most people could not read nor write - check out > the 1901 Census. Those that could saw no reason to stick with one spelling. > It was simply not a concept that entered their consciousness. There was in > fact not attempt to standardize English spelling until education became > compulsory in 1880 and it obviously took a generation for that to work its > way through to adult spelling in documents. > > All those folk who say, "We are the Grays with an "a" and not that other > crowd who spell their name with an "e"" are talking....well, not as lot of > sense. This correctness of spelling is a 20th century confection. My > McClementses have no less than 13 different spellings from Lamond to > McLummints. You can just hear my great grandfather, when asked what his > name was for the census saying, "Samule MuLummints" in his broad Ulster > twang. > > Boyd Gray > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ > > http://preview.tinyurl.com/yk7gckr > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of D H > Sent: 15 December 2011 15:41 > To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > > It's not just clerks.... I've a Will signed by a person, a codicil added > signed by the same person and both signatures are spelled differently. This > man could read and write, so why 2 versions? > > On the Ulster Covenant I've 5 sisters, 3 spell their name one way and other > 2 a different way, they were educated, some were trained teachers. So > which name is correct? Both! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Your problem is that you are looking at the 19th century with 21st century eyes. In the 19th century, it simply was not important how your name was spelled. No-one cared. Most people could not read nor write - check out the 1901 Census. Those that could saw no reason to stick with one spelling. It was simply not a concept that entered their consciousness. There was in fact not attempt to standardize English spelling until education became compulsory in 1880 and it obviously took a generation for that to work its way through to adult spelling in documents. All those folk who say, "We are the Grays with an "a" and not that other crowd who spell their name with an "e"" are talking....well, not as lot of sense. This correctness of spelling is a 20th century confection. My McClementses have no less than 13 different spellings from Lamond to McLummints. You can just hear my great grandfather, when asked what his name was for the census saying, "Samule MuLummints" in his broad Ulster twang. Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ http://preview.tinyurl.com/yk7gckr -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of D H Sent: 15 December 2011 15:41 To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks It's not just clerks.... I've a Will signed by a person, a codicil added signed by the same person and both signatures are spelled differently. This man could read and write, so why 2 versions? On the Ulster Covenant I've 5 sisters, 3 spell their name one way and other 2 a different way, they were educated, some were trained teachers. So which name is correct? Both! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dave, we need to give up the notion of 'correctness' when researching surnames. That's a 20th century notion -- a correct way to spell a surname. It assumes the person spelling it knows what the correct spelling is, but when your grandparents were illiterate, how could they possibly tell you what the correct spelling 'is'? There is no correct spelling because the name actually had never been written down, except by some priests and clerks. It's not just a matter of reading and writing. The fact is, until very recently, our culture was oral. The important stuff was oral. Eventually some bloke came along and wrote things down to preserve it. Smart people knew that was wrong because it would kill the story or whatever it is: destroy the organic fluidity that allowed the story or the name or whatever to change to reflect changing life conditions, changing events, etc, etc etc. Every time you had an important experience such as killing a few of the enemy (the guys living on the next hill), your name could change to reflect that. Currently we like things spelled the same way. That doesn't mean anything at all in the past. It's quite impossible to spell a name correctly that has never been spelled at all! Everyone knows what it is so why write it down? the only reasons are to make you pay taxes or control you in some way. Many of your ancestors would have thought you were daft to even ask the question of how to spell a name. They'd never thought about it at all since they were illiterate. These surnames aren't like stones in a river bed: each unique and solid as can be. They're fluid. At one time in Scotland there were many many more patrynomics that were not necessarily fixed surnames. They coalesced dynamically into tribes of various sizes, that identified themselves by a name. At first a totem animal, later the important founder (even if he was a seal). Then bigger tribes gobbled them up and forced them to assume the name of their founder and then that one was gobbled up too. Pretty soon there were very few clans or surnames in Scotland. Or so the scholars decided. I am just repeating, like a parrot, what I have read. This is kind of at odds, though, with populist notions of surnames in Scotland: for example that everyone with a su rname is related in a big happy clan. No. The DNA and the historians tell us they were territorial. If you lived in their area, you owed allegiance to that clan. The day after Clan Campbell took over the McDonald lands little baby Campbells began to appear in the baptismal rolls. Not nine months after the rapes. The next DAY. That's because the surname had nothing to do with genes or even your father. It had to do with your clan and when it changed, your 'surname' changed too. Check out the front essay of Black "Surnames of Scotland". It explains these things. These things didn't happen so much in the lowlands. Scott was amazed to meet a man on a second hunting trip in the highlands. However this time he was using a different surname. Scott queried him: Aren't you the man I met 20 years ago who was then named ....? The man said yes, but he'd moved over the hill since. So even in Sir Walter's day the lowland Scots had stopped these highlander Gaelic customs and accepted fixed (though badly spelled) surnames. However in Ulster this occurred much later because the Gaelic Irish were in charge. This story is in Black's "Surnames of Scotland". He also shows how fast Irish assimilated into native Scots in three generations (or less). My grandmother was conceived in Polmont, Scotland (near Falkirk) and born in Ohio. This area is close to Edinburgh and squarely in the middle of the happy lowlands of Scotland. Her mother's maiden name was always hard for us to get. She said something like Mummich. It was clearly not an English name. Later we got her birth certificate and it was spelled (usually) Mennoch or in various records Munnoch. Now I would not pronounce the spelled name as my grandmother said it. It was almost as if my grandmother was very uncomfortable with the final ch sound, which is found in Scots and German but not English. Though she spoke, when need be, a very very broad Scots that no English speaker could understand. We know because a cousin on my mother's side married a gal from Glasgow. No one could talk to her at all, so we brought over my dad's mother. They conversed for a very long time in broad Scots with no difficulty though we could not understand a word either said. The surname is a very old one and seems indiginous to the area. It would seem to suggest that Gaelic was once spoken there. Donno....but in this case it seems the English spelling didn't match the Scots pronunciation at all unless the spelling was also Scots and pronounced differently. However saying that surname was always uncomfortable for my grandmother because she lapsed into broad Scots to say it and no English speaking ear could really grasp it. What was it originally? Some unpronounceable Pictish word, maybe? Perhaps there was a rune that represented it, but more likely it was never spelled at all until only a few hundred years ago when the priest wanted to document the baptism of a child. He'd have had to come out from Falkirk. No church in Polmont till much later on, long after the monastery land was given over to the Hamiltons. Andrew Jackson would have liked your Ulster Covenant ancestors. He once said he had no respect for a man who could only spell a word one way. Of course if you tell your spelling teacher that you'll have an opportunity to learn whether corporal punishment is practiced in your school system <grin>. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:41:12 AM Subject: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks It's not just clerks.... I've a Will signed by a person, a codicil added signed by the same person and both signatures are spelled differently. This man could read and write, so why 2 versions? On the Ulster Covenant I've 5 sisters, 3 spell their name one way and other 2 a different way, they were educated, some were trained teachers. So which name is correct? Both! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It's not just clerks.... I've a Will signed by a person, a codicil added signed by the same person and both signatures are spelled differently. This man could read and write, so why 2 versions? On the Ulster Covenant I've 5 sisters, 3 spell their name one way and other 2 a different way, they were educated, some were trained teachers. So which name is correct? Both!