The higher the resolution of the test, generally, the more refined the result ie 67 markers has more resolution than 37 etc. Among the alleles certain markers mutate more easily and frequently than others. Much work has been done on mutation rates of the individual alleles. Having a 1 step mutation even with in father son pairs, cousins even those removed, etc. is not unusual. The DNA with in a surname may establish relatedness but doesn't establish the relationship; thus there are indeed several layers of information which may be considered with in the context of these matches. A rule of thumb...if two people with in a surname match 37/37 it would be good if both parties would up-grade to 67 or even 111 markers. It would be unusual to find a perfect 67/67 match unless those individuals are fairly closely related, although the 111 marker test is more pertinent for say the last 4 generations and FTDNA defines their generation averages at 25 years per generation. Even at that if the paper trails haven't eaked out the relationship, at least you know there is relatedness there and the genealogies must be chased if you are so interested to do so. Keep in mind, as with the paper chasing, some common ancestors may not be identified but the added knowledge that indeed there is one is enough for some. On 12/28/2011 3:00 AM, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: DNA sale (Les Tate) > 2. Re: DNA sale (marsha moses) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:22:58 -0800 > From: Les Tate<lrtate@live.com> > Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP435BEF9644FFD89580A9BBFB9AB0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > You would be fortunate to find a perfect 67-marker match within the last 7 or 8 generations. I did and it's a distant cousin from the same common ancestor, but through sons by different wives. However there are two cousins from the same son as his, but through different greatgrandsons of our common ancestor, and their results differ from us by one unit on two markers, but with only one of those "deviant" markers being the same for each. We also have 2-marker differences with two people with the same (or similar) surname, but we (and they) have not been able to establish a common ancestor even though we all appear to be related through an even older ancestor. > > Thus, you should also be looking for matches who differ from you by one or two markers and not concentrate on finding perfect matches. Let genealogical data should be your primary tool, with Y-DNA testing serving as additional information to aid further searching. > > Les Tate > N44383 > ================== > > Dec 23, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Neil McDonald (macbd1) wrote: > >> On the other side of 'approaching,' and having no matches at the 67 marker >> level, I'm chuckling at your wry humor while waiting... > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 22:27:41 -0500 > From: marsha moses<mosesm@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<5EF9C282-242B-49D1-AC58-B6B3E1EA7AB6@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > My son and husband's test results came back with one marker difference....there is already a mutation in one generation down. I agree with Les. > On Dec 23, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Les Tate wrote: > >> You would be fortunate to find a perfect 67-marker match within the last 7 or 8 generations. I did and it's a distant cousin from the same common ancestor, but through sons by different wives. However there are two cousins from the same son as his, but through different greatgrandsons of our common ancestor, and their results differ from us by one unit on two markers, but with only one of those "deviant" markers being the same for each. We also have 2-marker differences with two people with the same (or similar) surname, but we (and they) have not been able to establish a common ancestor even though we all appear to be related through an even older ancestor. >> >> Thus, you should also be looking for matches who differ from you by one or two markers and not concentrate on finding perfect matches. Let genealogical data should be your primary tool, with Y-DNA testing serving as additional information to aid further searching. >> >> Les Tate >> N44383 >> ================== >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SCOTCH-IRISH list administrator, send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the SCOTCH-IRISH mailing list, send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 6, Issue 324 > ******************************************** >

My son and husband's test results came back with one marker difference....there is already a mutation in one generation down. I agree with Les. On Dec 23, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Les Tate wrote: > You would be fortunate to find a perfect 67-marker match within the last 7 or 8 generations. I did and it's a distant cousin from the same common ancestor, but through sons by different wives. However there are two cousins from the same son as his, but through different greatgrandsons of our common ancestor, and their results differ from us by one unit on two markers, but with only one of those "deviant" markers being the same for each. We also have 2-marker differences with two people with the same (or similar) surname, but we (and they) have not been able to establish a common ancestor even though we all appear to be related through an even older ancestor. > > Thus, you should also be looking for matches who differ from you by one or two markers and not concentrate on finding perfect matches. Let genealogical data should be your primary tool, with Y-DNA testing serving as additional information to aid further searching. > > Les Tate > N44383 > ================== >

It's a nice map as it gives one place in relation to another without bringing in counties! Forgot to say..one needs to click on image to enlarge it! DH. _________________________________________________________________________________ In 1834 the first railway in Ireland was opened, running between Dublin and Dunleary. this heralded the beginning of the steam age in Ireland. In 1845 there were fewer than 100 miles of track, by 1855 there were 1,000 by 1865 this had doubled to 2,000. The railways encouraged people to travel, previously coaches may have traveled at speeds of up to 10 MPH, Canal boats 2 or 3, with Trains reaching 20 MPH and fares set at half of that of the competition, the railways rapidly became the in way to travel and send freight, which could be dispatched to almost any destination in the country both efficiently and economically, encouraging Irish businesses to look further afield when selling their products. . The success of the railways was the precursor to the slow demise of the Irish canal industry which came into existence in 1731, by the mid 1850's there were 1,450 km (900 Miles) of navigable waterways in Ireland. The Royal Canal, which linked Dublin to the Shannon, was fully completed in 1817.The canals found it impossible to compete with the speed of the railways. In 1845 the Royal Canal was sold to The Midland and Great Western Railway Company, who built a line along the canal banks. In 1845 a load of coal took five days to go from Dublin to Galway (133 miles) by road and canal, by 1855 the same load would have went in ten hours, an example of how small Ireland had become even through the "famine years"!

Many people who visit Ireland know how difficult it is to get around using public transport, but in the 19th century getting around was much easier as waterways and railways bloomed in Ireland, Railways were growing fast and in all their varieties until they reached over every county and to the furthest shores. They reached to places as yet untouched by proper roads and enabled the produce and the people of the country to escape their isolation and poverty Some of them have gone from places condemned as desolate and dying and now crying out for suburban railways. Some were in places so remote it seems incredible that the railway every came. For some of these places the railway ages was short, maybe only thirty years.... Excluding existing rail lines, you have these Lost railways * Athenry + Ennis Junction,/ Athenry + Tuam, / Bagenalstown + Wexford,/ Ballymena, Cushendal + Red Bay,/ Ballymena + Larne,/ Cavan + Leitrim,/ Cork, Bandon + South Coast,/ Cork, Blackrock + Passage,/ Cork + Macroom Direct,/ Cork + Muskerry, /Cork + Youghal,/ County Donegal,/ Enniskillen + Bundoran,/ Farranfore + Valentia,/ Fishguard + Rosslare R + Harbour Co,/ Galway-Clifden,/ Listowel + Ballybunion,/ Londonderry + Lough Swilly, /Londonderry + Letterkenny, / Sligo + Ballaghadreen Jcn, / Sligo, Leitrim + Northern Counties, / Tralee + Dingle, / Waterford + Tramore, / Waterford Dungarvan + Lismore, / Westport + Achill Island, / West Clare With waterways and railways starting in early 1800's the following map may help to show the transport available in 1800's for those departing to foreign countries http://www.downrail.co.uk/history/photos/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg One also has to take into account how News/Gossip etc was spread along these lines of communication, how people moved around...met others, etc... Not quite the Internet but not a bad Inter-Net!

Fabulous map, very helpful, thank you! Martha ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: <SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 8:20 AM Subject: [S-I] How did people travel around Ireland in 1800's? Nice maphere!! > Many people who visit Ireland know how difficult it is to get around using > public transport, but in the 19th century getting around was much easier > as > waterways and railways bloomed in Ireland, > > Railways were growing fast and in all their varieties until they reached > over every county and to the furthest shores. They reached to places as > yet > untouched by proper roads and enabled the produce and the people of the > country to escape their isolation and poverty Some of them have gone from > places condemned as desolate and dying and now crying out for suburban > railways. > > Some were in places so remote it seems incredible that the railway every > came. For some of these places the railway ages was short, maybe only > thirty > years.... > > Excluding existing rail lines, you have these Lost railways > > * Athenry + Ennis Junction,/ Athenry + Tuam, / Bagenalstown + Wexford,/ > Ballymena, Cushendal + Red Bay,/ Ballymena + Larne,/ Cavan + Leitrim,/ > Cork, Bandon + South Coast,/ Cork, Blackrock + Passage,/ Cork + > Macroom Direct,/ Cork + Muskerry, /Cork + Youghal,/ County Donegal,/ > Enniskillen + Bundoran,/ Farranfore + Valentia,/ Fishguard + Rosslare > R + Harbour Co,/ Galway-Clifden,/ Listowel + Ballybunion,/ Londonderry + > Lough Swilly, /Londonderry + Letterkenny, / Sligo + Ballaghadreen Jcn, > / Sligo, Leitrim + Northern Counties, / Tralee + Dingle, / Waterford + > Tramore, / Waterford Dungarvan + Lismore, / Westport + Achill Island, / > West Clare > > > With waterways and railways starting in early 1800's the following map may > help to show the transport available in 1800's for those departing to > foreign countries > > http://www.downrail.co.uk/history/photos/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg > > One also has to take into account how News/Gossip etc was spread along > these lines of communication, how people moved around...met others, etc... > > Not quite the Internet but not a bad Inter-Net! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4704 - Release Date: 12/26/11 >

Hi Susan, that's a wonderful overview of DNA testing that you gave -- the pros and the cons. Speaking personally, the best part has been discovery of information we had no way of knowing before, such as where my father's most distant ancestors came from as well as our female line. It's also an opportunity to contribute to science by banking your DNA for future generations. I think we should make Susan our official DNA expert! Merry Christmas to all, Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Hedeen" <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Cc: scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com, AnnL7777@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 10:36:47 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale Hi, List, first Merry Christmas Regarding the question, like Linda I've a bit of experience with both the DNA and the Lists. I think I'm more of a fan than Linda may be, but I also might be considered one of her nut cases hahaha. It all depends on perspective. DNA results will not make a lineage -- let's start there, but will it help in sorting out your lineage? Maybe -- Maybe Not. If you test the Y using a cell donation from one of your closely related males of the surname and others from your surname have also tested and they have an intact genealogy which is verified back to the time and place of your genealogy hole, then the results could be indeed helpful. This is everyone's dream. For some it has happened exactly this way. For a variety of reasons, however, this is not always the case. You will show matches -- some identical and or very close depending on the number of panels purchased, and depending on the projects some of those may also be with-in your surname. Whether or not your matches, however, have intact genealogies is another matter. Most descendants of immigrants into the Colonies out of Ireland who have not been able to establish their genealogies across the pond are not unique. The same obstacles we face, the Irish, Scot-Irish, and Scots also face. But this isn't to say that you might not get lucky. So is that advise not to test? Absolutely not. There is a whole host of information which results from DNA which is interesting and enlightening particularly since there is such a large data base of results which is increasing daily. With the Y, learning what the haplogroup of the linear paternal dna is may open up an entire world of new inquiry. Although one from Ireland would be suspected to be from one of the R1b groups, there are several of those which reflect different cultures and migrations; yet R1b clades and sub-clades is not a given. Other haplogroups with their sub-clades are found among Irish descendants as well. It really is dependent upon your goals and expectations whether or not DNA inquiry is worth it to you. For me every bit of it has been worth it despite not being able to fill in my specific over the pond holes, and for most who I speak with on the various lists agree with that sentiment; keep in mind, however, participation on the lists is an exercise of interest...so it would go to follow. If you go into it with an open mind and open expectations and devote the time and thought processes in learning about this tool, willing to participate in the lists of interest just as you have participated in this one, you may well find it as rich and rewarding as you have your traditional genealogical inquiries. You may also experience some of the frustrations which are prevalent in traditional genealogy as well. Susan

You would be fortunate to find a perfect 67-marker match within the last 7 or 8 generations. I did and it's a distant cousin from the same common ancestor, but through sons by different wives. However there are two cousins from the same son as his, but through different greatgrandsons of our common ancestor, and their results differ from us by one unit on two markers, but with only one of those "deviant" markers being the same for each. We also have 2-marker differences with two people with the same (or similar) surname, but we (and they) have not been able to establish a common ancestor even though we all appear to be related through an even older ancestor. Thus, you should also be looking for matches who differ from you by one or two markers and not concentrate on finding perfect matches. Let genealogical data should be your primary tool, with Y-DNA testing serving as additional information to aid further searching. Les Tate N44383 ================== Dec 23, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Neil McDonald (macbd1) wrote: > On the other side of 'approaching,' and having no matches at the 67 marker > level, I'm chuckling at your wry humor while waiting...

On the other side of 'approaching,' and having no matches at the 67 marker level, I'm chuckling at your wry humor while waiting... Merry Christmas all, Neil McDonald R1b1a2 (tested) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph W. Wyndrum Jr." <rwyndrum@comcast.net> To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale > All, > So if we all survive, we wait a few years and we'll know? I'm approaching > my > 75th birthday..... > Ralph > > Dr. Ralph W. Wyndrum Jr., LFIEEE > Adjunct Faculty, Rutgers University > CEO Executive Engineering Consultants > 2009 Board Chairman, American Ass'n > of Engineering Societies, Washington DC > Past President, IEEE-USA > Phone 732-219-0005; fax -0006; Mobile 732-809-3811

Hi, List, first Merry Christmas Regarding the question, like Linda I've a bit of experience with both the DNA and the Lists. I think I'm more of a fan than Linda may be, but I also might be considered one of her nut cases hahaha. It all depends on perspective. DNA results will not make a lineage -- let's start there, but will it help in sorting out your lineage? Maybe -- Maybe Not. If you test the Y using a cell donation from one of your closely related males of the surname and others from your surname have also tested and they have an intact genealogy which is verified back to the time and place of your genealogy hole, then the results could be indeed helpful. This is everyone's dream. For some it has happened exactly this way. For a variety of reasons, however, this is not always the case. You will show matches -- some identical and or very close depending on the number of panels purchased, and depending on the projects some of those may also be with-in your surname. Whether or not your matches, however, have intact genealogies is another matter. Most descendants of immigrants into the Colonies out of Ireland who have not been able to establish their genealogies across the pond are not unique. The same obstacles we face, the Irish, Scot-Irish, and Scots also face. But this isn't to say that you might not get lucky. So is that advise not to test? Absolutely not. There is a whole host of information which results from DNA which is interesting and enlightening particularly since there is such a large data base of results which is increasing daily. With the Y, learning what the haplogroup of the linear paternal dna is may open up an entire world of new inquiry. Although one from Ireland would be suspected to be from one of the R1b groups, there are several of those which reflect different cultures and migrations; yet R1b clades and sub-clades is not a given. Other haplogroups with their sub-clades are found among Irish descendants as well. It really is dependent upon your goals and expectations whether or not DNA inquiry is worth it to you. For me every bit of it has been worth it despite not being able to fill in my specific over the pond holes, and for most who I speak with on the various lists agree with that sentiment; keep in mind, however, participation on the lists is an exercise of interest...so it would go to follow. If you go into it with an open mind and open expectations and devote the time and thought processes in learning about this tool, willing to participate in the lists of interest just as you have participated in this one, you may well find it as rich and rewarding as you have your traditional genealogical inquiries. You may also experience some of the frustrations which are prevalent in traditional genealogy as well. Susan On 12/23/2011 3:00 AM, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. DNA sale (AnnL7777@aol.com) > 2. Re: DNA sale (Judy Anderson) > 3. Re: DNA sale (lmerle@comcast.net) > 4. Re: DNA sale (Ralph W. Wyndrum Jr.) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:28:10 -0500 (EST) > From: AnnL7777@aol.com > Subject: [S-I] DNA sale > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<169cc.4639f0d0.3c24d0b9@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Linda, > FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until > 12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask you > for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my > purposes. > > Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can > dig deeper. All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland but I have > only been able to get one generation further back (names and places). I > have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be willing to submit > a sample. > > I would appreciate your advice. > > Thanks and Merry Christmas, > > Ann Lamb > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:32:24 +0000 (UTC) > From: Judy Anderson<plantsncn@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <364467432.16449.1324582344193.JavaMail.root@sz0048a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > Hello, > > > > 23 and me is $99.00 right now. > > > > Judy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AnnL7777@aol.com > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:28:10 AM > Subject: [S-I] DNA sale > > Linda, > FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until ? > 12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask ?you > for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my ? > purposes. ? > ? > Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can ? > dig deeper. ?All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland ?but I have > only been able to get one generation further back (names and ?places). ?I > have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be ?willing to submit > a sample. ? > ? > I would appreciate your advice. > ? > Thanks and Merry Christmas, > ? > Ann Lamb ? ? > ? > ? > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:42:05 +0000 (UTC) > From: lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <198591249.1533463.1324582925077.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Ann, your brothers' Y chromo test would give insight into the male line only. It's usually the one people are initially interested in. If your male line is Irish you need 67 markers as a minimum. If the male line is from Ulster, join the Ulster DNA heritage project. > > The female line is studied via mitochondrial DNA. That's a whole different animal, but possibly more interesting. Mine is Middle Eastern, for example. Probably entered Europe with Neolithic farmers. > > Then there is autosomnal DNA. That's much more complicated. And I'm not sure it's worth the money. > > The most mature is the Y DNA so it is good to start. > > THough right now they are re-doing a large part of the human tree. They made a big announcement yesterday about finding new mutations, I think within I (I was not paying attention<grin>)....and demanding FTDNA change its nominclature to conform to their own. Over on another list they were fighting about where NW Irish originated, as usual and in a tizzy because someone claimed there was more of it in Belfast than Donegal, So didn't this prove that it originated in Scotland? No. Furthermore people have been migrating east to Belfast from DOnegal (and anywhere west of Belfast) for at least 200 years, looking for jobs. And the world's expect in Irish emigration says Donegal lost most of its population before the Potato Famine. So most Donegal DNA ain't in Donegal and hasn't been since the 1700s. WHere is it? Projects like the Cumberland Gap project have a lot of it suggesting it came to America. No doubt lots came to Belfast too. We know this due to the complaints from the lo! c! > al Scots. > > They may have found a subclade to M222 which they've been looking for. Or it's older....hard to follow these posts and to remember who is a nutcase and who is a scientist<grin>. In any case there it is a dynamic time for DNA discoveries. > > Probably in the new year it'll get sorted out and explained to the rest of us. > > So corner one of those brothers and let us know the results. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AnnL7777@aol.com > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:28:10 PM > Subject: [S-I] DNA sale > > Linda, > FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until > 12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask you > for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my > purposes. > > Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can > dig deeper. All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland but I have > only been able to get one generation further back (names and places). I > have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be willing to submit > a sample. > > I would appreciate your advice. > > Thanks and Merry Christmas, > > Ann Lamb > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:38:08 -0500 > From: "Ralph W. Wyndrum Jr."<rwyndrum@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale > To:<scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<009301ccc124$4a0bea20$de23be60$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > All, > So if we all survive, we wait a few years and we'll know? I'm approaching my > 75th birthday..... > Ralph > > Dr. Ralph W. Wyndrum Jr., LFIEEE > Adjunct Faculty, Rutgers University > CEO Executive Engineering Consultants > 2009 Board Chairman, American Ass'n > of Engineering Societies, Washington DC > Past President, IEEE-USA > Phone 732-219-0005; fax -0006; Mobile 732-809-3811 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 2:42 PM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale > > Hi Ann, your brothers' Y chromo test would give insight into the male line > only. It's usually the one people are initially interested in. If your male > line is Irish you need 67 markers as a minimum. If the male line is from > Ulster, join the Ulster DNA heritage project. > > The female line is studied via mitochondrial DNA. That's a whole different > animal, but possibly more interesting. Mine is Middle Eastern, for example. > Probably entered Europe with Neolithic farmers. > > Then there is autosomnal DNA. That's much more complicated. And I'm not sure > it's worth the money. > > The most mature is the Y DNA so it is good to start. > > THough right now they are re-doing a large part of the human tree. They made > a big announcement yesterday about finding new mutations, I think within I > (I was not paying attention<grin>)....and demanding FTDNA change its > nominclature to conform to their own. Over on another list they were > fighting about where NW Irish originated, as usual and in a tizzy because > someone claimed there was more of it in Belfast than Donegal, So didn't this > prove that it originated in Scotland? No. Furthermore people have been > migrating east to Belfast from DOnegal (and anywhere west of Belfast) for at > least 200 years, looking for jobs. And the world's expect in Irish > emigration says Donegal lost most of its population before the Potato > Famine. So most Donegal DNA ain't in Donegal and hasn't been since the > 1700s. WHere is it? Projects like the Cumberland Gap project have a lot of > it suggesting it came to America. No doubt lots came to Belfast too. We know > this due to the complaints from the loc! > al Scots. > > They may have found a subclade to M222 which they've been looking for. Or > it's older....hard to follow these posts and to remember who is a nutcase > and who is a scientist<grin>. In any case there it is a dynamic time for > DNA discoveries. > > Probably in the new year it'll get sorted out and explained to the rest of > us. > > So corner one of those brothers and let us know the results. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AnnL7777@aol.com > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:28:10 PM > Subject: [S-I] DNA sale > > Linda, > FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until > 12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask > you > for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my > purposes. > > Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can > dig deeper. All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland but I have > only been able to get one generation further back (names and places). I > have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be willing to submit > > a sample. > > I would appreciate your advice. > > Thanks and Merry Christmas, > > Ann Lamb > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SCOTCH-IRISH list administrator, send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the SCOTCH-IRISH mailing list, send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 6, Issue 321 > ******************************************** >

I found that with the Y testing there are a lot of "Brick Walls" that I do not need to waste my time on. There is a VERY large Abernathy family that I had been trying to connect to for years, but I had done the DNA thing, I found that there is NO way that I could be connected to this large group. Thanks, David C Abernathy Email disclaimers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message represents the official view of the voices in my head. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.SchmeckAbernathy.com == All outgoing and incoming mail is scanned by F-Prot Antivirus  == -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 8:25 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale Hi Susan, that's a wonderful overview of DNA testing that you gave -- the pros and the cons. Speaking personally, the best part has been discovery of information we had no way of knowing before, such as where my father's most distant ancestors came from as well as our female line. It's also an opportunity to contribute to science by banking your DNA for future generations. I think we should make Susan our official DNA expert! Merry Christmas to all, Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Hedeen" <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Cc: scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com, AnnL7777@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 10:36:47 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale Hi, List, first Merry Christmas Regarding the question, like Linda I've a bit of experience with both the DNA and the Lists. I think I'm more of a fan than Linda may be, but I also might be considered one of her nut cases hahaha. It all depends on perspective. DNA results will not make a lineage -- let's start there, but will it help in sorting out your lineage? Maybe -- Maybe Not. If you test the Y using a cell donation from one of your closely related males of the surname and others from your surname have also tested and they have an intact genealogy which is verified back to the time and place of your genealogy hole, then the results could be indeed helpful. This is everyone's dream. For some it has happened exactly this way. For a variety of reasons, however, this is not always the case. You will show matches -- some identical and or very close depending on the number of panels purchased, and depending on the projects some of those may also be with-in your surname. Whether or not your matches, however, have intact genealogies is another matter. Most descendants of immigrants into the Colonies out of Ireland who have not been able to establish their genealogies across the pond are not unique. The same obstacles we face, the Irish, Scot-Irish, and Scots also face. But this isn't to say that you might not get lucky. So is that advise not to test? Absolutely not. There is a whole host of information which results from DNA which is interesting and enlightening particularly since there is such a large data base of results which is increasing daily. With the Y, learning what the haplogroup of the linear paternal dna is may open up an entire world of new inquiry. Although one from Ireland would be suspected to be from one of the R1b groups, there are several of those which reflect different cultures and migrations; yet R1b clades and sub-clades is not a given. Other haplogroups with their sub-clades are found among Irish descendants as well. It really is dependent upon your goals and expectations whether or not DNA inquiry is worth it to you. For me every bit of it has been worth it despite not being able to fill in my specific over the pond holes, and for most who I speak with on the various lists agree with that sentiment; keep in mind, however, participation on the lists is an exercise of interest...so it would go to follow. If you go into it with an open mind and open expectations and devote the time and thought processes in learning about this tool, willing to participate in the lists of interest just as you have participated in this one, you may well find it as rich and rewarding as you have your traditional genealogical inquiries. You may also experience some of the frustrations which are prevalent in traditional genealogy as well. Susan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

All, So if we all survive, we wait a few years and we'll know? I'm approaching my 75th birthday..... Ralph Dr. Ralph W. Wyndrum Jr., LFIEEE Adjunct Faculty, Rutgers University CEO Executive Engineering Consultants 2009 Board Chairman, American Ass'n of Engineering Societies, Washington DC Past President, IEEE-USA Phone 732-219-0005; fax -0006; Mobile 732-809-3811 -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 2:42 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] DNA sale Hi Ann, your brothers' Y chromo test would give insight into the male line only. It's usually the one people are initially interested in. If your male line is Irish you need 67 markers as a minimum. If the male line is from Ulster, join the Ulster DNA heritage project. The female line is studied via mitochondrial DNA. That's a whole different animal, but possibly more interesting. Mine is Middle Eastern, for example. Probably entered Europe with Neolithic farmers. Then there is autosomnal DNA. That's much more complicated. And I'm not sure it's worth the money. The most mature is the Y DNA so it is good to start. THough right now they are re-doing a large part of the human tree. They made a big announcement yesterday about finding new mutations, I think within I (I was not paying attention <grin>)....and demanding FTDNA change its nominclature to conform to their own. Over on another list they were fighting about where NW Irish originated, as usual and in a tizzy because someone claimed there was more of it in Belfast than Donegal, So didn't this prove that it originated in Scotland? No. Furthermore people have been migrating east to Belfast from DOnegal (and anywhere west of Belfast) for at least 200 years, looking for jobs. And the world's expect in Irish emigration says Donegal lost most of its population before the Potato Famine. So most Donegal DNA ain't in Donegal and hasn't been since the 1700s. WHere is it? Projects like the Cumberland Gap project have a lot of it suggesting it came to America. No doubt lots came to Belfast too. We know this due to the complaints from the loc! al Scots. They may have found a subclade to M222 which they've been looking for. Or it's older....hard to follow these posts and to remember who is a nutcase and who is a scientist <grin>. In any case there it is a dynamic time for DNA discoveries. Probably in the new year it'll get sorted out and explained to the rest of us. So corner one of those brothers and let us know the results. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: AnnL7777@aol.com To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:28:10 PM Subject: [S-I] DNA sale Linda, FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until 12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask you for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my purposes. Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can dig deeper. All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland but I have only been able to get one generation further back (names and places). I have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be willing to submit a sample. I would appreciate your advice. Thanks and Merry Christmas, Ann Lamb ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ann, your brothers' Y chromo test would give insight into the male line only. It's usually the one people are initially interested in. If your male line is Irish you need 67 markers as a minimum. If the male line is from Ulster, join the Ulster DNA heritage project. The female line is studied via mitochondrial DNA. That's a whole different animal, but possibly more interesting. Mine is Middle Eastern, for example. Probably entered Europe with Neolithic farmers. Then there is autosomnal DNA. That's much more complicated. And I'm not sure it's worth the money. The most mature is the Y DNA so it is good to start. THough right now they are re-doing a large part of the human tree. They made a big announcement yesterday about finding new mutations, I think within I (I was not paying attention <grin>)....and demanding FTDNA change its nominclature to conform to their own. Over on another list they were fighting about where NW Irish originated, as usual and in a tizzy because someone claimed there was more of it in Belfast than Donegal, So didn't this prove that it originated in Scotland? No. Furthermore people have been migrating east to Belfast from DOnegal (and anywhere west of Belfast) for at least 200 years, looking for jobs. And the world's expect in Irish emigration says Donegal lost most of its population before the Potato Famine. So most Donegal DNA ain't in Donegal and hasn't been since the 1700s. WHere is it? Projects like the Cumberland Gap project have a lot of it suggesting it came to America. No doubt lots came to Belfast too. We know this due to the complaints from the local Scots. They may have found a subclade to M222 which they've been looking for. Or it's older....hard to follow these posts and to remember who is a nutcase and who is a scientist <grin>. In any case there it is a dynamic time for DNA discoveries. Probably in the new year it'll get sorted out and explained to the rest of us. So corner one of those brothers and let us know the results. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: AnnL7777@aol.com To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:28:10 PM Subject: [S-I] DNA sale Linda, FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until 12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask you for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my purposes. Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can dig deeper. All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland but I have only been able to get one generation further back (names and places). I have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be willing to submit a sample. I would appreciate your advice. Thanks and Merry Christmas, Ann Lamb ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, 23 and me is $99.00 right now. Judy ----- Original Message ----- From: AnnL7777@aol.com To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:28:10 AM Subject: [S-I] DNA sale Linda, FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until   12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask  you for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my   purposes.     Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can   dig deeper.  All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland  but I have only been able to get one generation further back (names and  places).  I have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be  willing to submit a sample.     I would appreciate your advice.   Thanks and Merry Christmas,   Ann Lamb         ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Linda, FamilytreeDNA.com is running a Holiday Sale on several tests until 12/31/11. I think the time has come for me to do it but I would like to ask you for your advice on whether the Y-DNA67 test at $199 would be best for my purposes. Goal: to find matches with people who might know more than I do so I can dig deeper. All of my father's grandparents were born in Ireland but I have only been able to get one generation further back (names and places). I have two brothers who carry the male line name who will be willing to submit a sample. I would appreciate your advice. Thanks and Merry Christmas, Ann Lamb

YES! Plat maps can be invaluable. My great finds were the Plat maps for Wm Penns "Manor of Maske" (land he apparently wanted as his own, but didn't end up with). This is the Gettysburg, PA area. Someone did a wonderful job plotting out all the old farms and putting names with all of the plots. I 'color coded' the names I was interested in and it helped a lot connecting people and families. Good luck. Sue

Hi Dave, You are on a roll! We're all jealous. >So, why does this 'seemingly unrelated person' years later leave Ireland and just end up in this particular township of all >places??...Coincidence? I don't think so!! There's couple kinds of migration patterns. One of them is called 'chain' -- where one person goes over and then others join. that's probably what you are looking at. Often people wrote letters back home and that inspired others to come over. They may have been invited, even. You needed hands to fell trees and labor was always in short supply. One famous example is William Johnston, the famous Indian guide, trader, and grandfather. I say 'grandfather' because the Indians like him so much they offered him their daughters and he fathered many Indians. He was a Catholic boy from Meath. He grew up and was sent over to New York to help out his rich uncle Peter Warren. He quickly surpassed his uncle. As his roots are in Ulster, he's not off topic. His story is here: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sir_William_Johnson,_1st_Baronet People rarely migrated alone unless they came as indentured servants, guests of the Crown (criminals), or jumped ship. I have heard of those. They may have traveled alone but their final destination was a place where either family or people from the same village were already settled. Exceptions may be made for school masters and other professionals. Another common pattern was people migrating in a congregation. Unfortunately in the 1700s, the areas from which a congregation was drawn in Ireland could be huge. For example when the Rev. Martin left with his congregation, his 'beat' covered all of Antrim and County Down. However there were only a handful of Reformed congregations in those two counties, so you can still figure out where yours were from. Sometimes cluster migration was political. In 1795 a group of people from southern Tyrone and Fermanagh left on the Eliza after making some United Irish speeches about how bad it was there and how they hated living with bigots and all that. Some of them eventually settled in south eastern Butler County (Then Westmoreland). They were mixed Catholic and Protestant. They were initially serviced out of Latrobe (St. Vincents) and known as the Buffalo Mission. Then they sent around a petition get their own priest. That petition was signed by both Catholics and Protestants (rendering it un-useful for determining religion). This was the start of the Pittsburgh Diocese, the first one west of the Allegheny Mountains. This is why they tell us we should always study the neighbors because they were neighbors in Ireland too. If your family came over as a family they were fairly well of in Ulster. They had to pay to bring everyone over. So it ups the likelihood of finding records that identify them -- especially in the deed books. Look for memorials. They may have sold their improvements on land they didn't own but were tenants. This was due to the Ulster Custom, an important concept to understand that made a huge difference in the relative wealth of farmers in Ulster as opposed to the rest of Ireland. However tell us more about your Chambers. There were the famous Chambers brothers who founded Chambersburg in Pennsylvania. Are these the guys you mean? They were in County Antrim. My Anderson ancestors were recruited by them on a trip home where it is known they recruited friends and neighbors. But I don't know where in ANtrim they lived. Linda Merle

Re; 'Pennsylvania has a HUGE collection of land records on line. Unlike several other colonies/states, it has good land records. You start with the warrant register, by the way'. ... yes I got what I needed last week on portal.state.pa with regard to warrant registers, what I expected to be there was there. What I hoped to be there was there. Now I need plat maps for the area to see the proximity of families to each other,...need time on that site to find my way around! EXCELLENT site! What I'm doing is too complicated to explain but I'll try...certain 'seemingly unrelated' people of same surname turning up in one location in US, then following them around and they all turn up in some place else,.... then one ups sticks here in Ireland a century later and ends up in the middle of them all. So, why does this 'seemingly unrelated person' years later leave Ireland and just end up in this particular township of all places??...Coincidence? I don't think so!! Why? Because looking at the names associated with one 'family unit'..then looking at another 'family unit', then looking at another one who then ended up in same township plus looking at one line that did not emigrate I find them all marrying families with the same mix of surnames on the lines..one line married Chambers, another line married Chambers, the line that stayed in Ireland married Chambers for example....then there are Dennys, etc.. Just too many coincidences.....too many mirror images!! Unfortunately one line is done and published on internet as gospel, but when looked at, I know of one mirror image associated with it but the wrong image, (from 1860 census if I remember correctly), so it is like using a paper bag to carry water. It is because of this that I cannot reveal the surname of these 4 lines!! Researching collateral families might hold the key to connecting the four.... I've already found , (due to warrant registers!) that the 'seemingly unrelated one' who left Ireland YEARS later ended up living on a neighbouring property to a family (of different surname via 2 known marriages ) that were directly related to a 'seemingly unrelated' line that emigrated earlier!! Another coincidence?? (as a direct neighbour of kin to another line!!) I know coincidences happen, 1860 census mix up for example, but there are just too many coincidences...too many!!! Basically all I need now are Plat maps just to see one property in relation to the other if possible but then I'll be going back in time for 3 of the 4 lines....for collateral families! Simple! :-))... I'll look for maps myself because goodness knows what might turn up on a website which I would miss if I just got maps from someone...(everything here is rhetorical!!) otherwise will holler! DH On 18/12/2011 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks > To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <96039114.1303769.1324135904306.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Yeh, I think three township/county name changes is the norm in most states. I thought it was bad till I did some research in Ontario. I think there were four in that case. > > It's a little like research in England, only there instead of civil parishes changing you have parishes splitting and chapels of ease. Arrrg...... > > How do you research them? They sell these huge books for professional genealogists that have lots of maps and the dates of when the counties were formed. The Redbook, for example. I own them, but I usually use the Internet. You study the history of the county and then research its parent, etc. > > You may have to research the history of township evolution too. Usually for eastern PA you can do that on the Internet.www.usgenweb.com is the hub. The rule is that the records for the later county would be in the parent county. Usually that's true, but not always. > > Records for what would be Pittsburgh were in Bedford County (which was Cumberland) for a nine month period in the late 1700s. I was researching one guy in Bedford county who was taxed in "Pitt Township". I think he was a little west of what we think of as Bedford County<grin>. I think that was Pittsburgh! > > Pennsylvania has a HUGE collection of land records on line. Unlike several other colonies/states, it has good land records. You start with the warrant register, by the way. > http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=3184&&SortOrder=100&level=4&parentCommID=3162&menuLevel=Level_4&mode=2 > > The process to learn how to use these records effectively used to require a half hour tutoring, with handout, at the Archives. This was followed by a half day or so of total confusion and frequent questions. this they warned you to expect. So if it is bewildering on the Internet, it's not your Alzheimers<grin>. It looks like they got all the info on the page above. > > They also have good military records on line. The Revolutionary military records are almost a census of all adult men, excepting those in the Clink for being Loyalists and men serving in Washington or Fayette's armies (future federal troops). They were mustered by area so you also learn exactly where he lived. There is a thin book that I own that maps these army units into townships. You just need to know the name of his officer. > > > > If you need any help give a hollar. We might not help, but you'll feel better. > > Linda Merle

Hi Sally, sorry.... The book is "Mother Cumberland: Tracing your Ancestors in South-Central Pennsylvania", Raymond Bell (1989, Hearthside Press). Bell explains that the military in the Revolution in Cumberland Co was organized in 4 phases: June 1775 Thompson's Rifle Battalion (regiment) January 1776 PA regiments ("PA Line") Summer and fall 1776 Flying Camp July 1777 PA Militia (all men 18 to 53 drafted) It has detailed maps showing where each group was organized from. Then in May 1780 they reorganized the militia again. The complete roll of officers and privates is in the PA Archives, Series 5, Volume 4 for Cumberland, Bedford was in Series 6 Vol 5, etc, etc. For example he lists for Central Cumberland, which includes the townships of Carlisle, part of Middleton, West Pennsboro: 1777 Second Battalion Col John Davis (Carlisle) etc.... Through the captains. For the privates you see the PA Archives above, or the website for the PA archives, or the published series of PA archives, now online free at footnote.com. Or it was free last time I checked. You can find the service record cards on line at the PA archives site. If he served, it ids the captain or Col or whatever and using this book you can tell where he lived. For Northumberland, not Cumberland, check for such a book. You will find the info in the published PA archives, though perhaps cumbersome to use. To find 'deeds, etc', you check the warrant register for the counties. Note that the register won't begin for the descendant county till it's created. Always check the parent(s). You have to understand all the info on that page in my prior email. You can also check the patent register. If he is in neither of these, then you move to the deed books. The info in the warrant, survey, patent paperwork helps uniquely identify the plot of land. Generally the description is carried on down, verbatim. In the 1800s a plot warranted by a William McCamish in 1751 was being described the same way in deeds -- including the names of adjacent neighbors though they had been dead for many many years. Didn't matter -- they were establishing a connection to the original warrant and patent. However it's likely that his children married the neighbor's children, so you always want to know the names of the neighbors and the warrants, patents and deeds are a good way to find them out. You can sometimes identify a female ancestor's parent by studying partitions of land in the deeds. Little local historical societies and the like have had it rough lately. Largely their members are older and less computer literate so they can't easily create an attractive website to lure in money or interest. On the other hand, TV ads convince people you can do it on line. Some pay for Ancestry. Others expect everything for free. Some of the latter are willing to spend hours transcribing records to create free genealogical resources for others. A larger group of leeches just expect that there is an army of drones out there transcribing away day and night for years to supply their needs. None of these folk support local genealogical groups. So in the future there will be fewer and fewer. It's bleak. Without these small local groups and their tireless volunteers much of what we need will not be available. It can also be quite frustrating trying to reform them as they may resist all efforts to add a website or change marketing to attract the diaspora, etc. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jess Sally Brandon" <sbrandondc@hotmail.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:23:02 AM Subject: [S-I] Tracing military troop origins Linda, you wrote, "There is a thin book that I own that maps these army units into townships. " What's the name? Our DNA group is following a fresh ancestor, found in the Northumberland troops (Northumberland, parent and descendant of several counties). We're trying to pin him down, hopefully to find a deed. Good luck with the Adams Co. PA historical society. I found their staff unhelpful and far too interested in disturbing me to discuss their own family searches. Or to stand in the itty bitty library talking loudly about personal business. Haven't checked lately, but they even disavowed their own website. Thanks, Sally Brandon ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yeh, I think three township/county name changes is the norm in most states. I thought it was bad till I did some research in Ontario. I think there were four in that case. It's a little like research in England, only there instead of civil parishes changing you have parishes splitting and chapels of ease. Arrrg...... How do you research them? They sell these huge books for professional genealogists that have lots of maps and the dates of when the counties were formed. The Redbook, for example. I own them, but I usually use the Internet. You study the history of the county and then research its parent, etc. You may have to research the history of township evolution too. Usually for eastern PA you can do that on the Internet. www.usgenweb.com is the hub. The rule is that the records for the later county would be in the parent county. Usually that's true, but not always. Records for what would be Pittsburgh were in Bedford County (which was Cumberland) for a nine month period in the late 1700s. I was researching one guy in Bedford county who was taxed in "Pitt Township". I think he was a little west of what we think of as Bedford County <grin>. I think that was Pittsburgh! Pennsylvania has a HUGE collection of land records on line. Unlike several other colonies/states, it has good land records. You start with the warrant register, by the way. http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=3184&&SortOrder=100&level=4&parentCommID=3162&menuLevel=Level_4&mode=2 The process to learn how to use these records effectively used to require a half hour tutoring, with handout, at the Archives. This was followed by a half day or so of total confusion and frequent questions. this they warned you to expect. So if it is bewildering on the Internet, it's not your Alzheimers <grin>. It looks like they got all the info on the page above. They also have good military records on line. The Revolutionary military records are almost a census of all adult men, excepting those in the Clink for being Loyalists and men serving in Washington or Fayette's armies (future federal troops). They were mustered by area so you also learn exactly where he lived. There is a thin book that I own that maps these army units into townships. You just need to know the name of his officer. The Indians killed all the ones living in lonely cabins except for a few holed up in Pittsburgh and vicinity. There were very few people out west though. They were of two stripes, overlooking Indians: Virginians and Pennsylvanians. The Virginian records, including court records, are published. So there were basically two parallel governments operating here -- because Virginia claimed it. Up in the north east you get Connecticut claims too. Another complication... PA legally bought parcels of land from the Indians, so you end up needing to know which purchase the land was in to use these land records. However sometimes people were living there before it was legal to live there and so the official records are of little use. If you do a lot of deed work into the late 1800s you can sometimes sort it out because eventually people wanted 'clear title'. If you didn't have that some guy could show up with a grant written on a hunk of deer hide and sue you. We still need to purchase title insurance. I didn't understand why till I started researching land records. If you need any help give a hollar. We might not help, but you'll feel better. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:30:08 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] Surname Spellingssss in Deeds/Wills by Clerks Well it is the same in other countries..if not worse. even changing names of places! /I found some of mine in Lancaster/ County, later York County, and is now Adams County, /Pennsylvania/ so how do I look for them?? These people never moved yet lived in 3 different places. Others lived in one state, the state lines were redrawn and my kin ended up in another state without moving, so now I've to find them all again in another state..grrrrrr Another was in Rhodesia but it changed its name too, so it is not just an Irish thing. In fact the Irish variations are just spelling variations....I wish it was just that for US stuff!! DH

Linda, you wrote, "There is a thin book that I own that maps these army units into townships. " What's the name? Our DNA group is following a fresh ancestor, found in the Northumberland troops (Northumberland, parent and descendant of several counties). We're trying to pin him down, hopefully to find a deed. Good luck with the Adams Co. PA historical society. I found their staff unhelpful and far too interested in disturbing me to discuss their own family searches. Or to stand in the itty bitty library talking loudly about personal business. Haven't checked lately, but they even disavowed their own website. Thanks, Sally Brandon