My I wish all listers "A Happy and Prosperous New Year" Not forgetting the Auld Edinburgh New Year Greeting, "Lang May Your Lum Reek" Yours as Aye, Colin McCalum, A Scot far from home. >From a damp Northern Ireland or Norn I'ron.

The Rev Hugh Mullin's book on Aghadowey a parish and its linen industry gives the Muster Roll on Ironmongers estate ca 1630 (ie including some townlands of Aghadowey). There is a Robert Mungomery The Hearth Money Roll indexed in same book has Alexander Montgomery in "Bellbrillen" presumably Ballybrittan ca 1663 Pyke's 1725 survey of tenants has John Montgomery in Bwalla O'Cahane. Not all townlands are extant in this survey, and it's after your Montgomerys left anyhow 1765 Alsop's survey Ballicaan John McGomery No Montgomerys in Balybrittan or Ballycahan in 1833 Tithe Applotment Survey Linde L

Hi folk, this is an interesting website: http://www.glenellyhistorical.org.uk/ It might be of interest to those with Duffys and a few other surnames. The account of a flood in 1680 is amazing. Traces of it can still be seen. Linda Merle

Hugh d, 1832 was the Montgomery who was known as "Split-fig Montgomery". I'd like to know if he bought Benvarden from Cassandra McNaghten Hardy, daughter of the famous "half-hanged McNaghten" or if Cassandra had to sell and then Montgomery bought it from the intermediary. Do you know the date he bought Benvarden? the Hardys were in financial difficulties in 1791 Linde L

Thanks! You give hope to us all. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 4:24:05 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] The Montgomerys of 1718 This is my one....Hugh Montgomery (1794-1867) who was the second son of Hugh<http://www.lisburn.com/books/volume5-05.JPG> Montgomery (1743-1832) of Benvarden, Co. Antrim, President of Belfast Chamber of Commerce 1802-03 and founder, in 1809, of Montgomery's Bank, forerunner of the Northern Bank On 31/12/2011 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > We're a lot like our ancestors in that we're really attempting to do what most would consider impossible. Instead of conquering the wilderness we're trying to research Scots dirt farmers in the 1700s and earlier in Ireland. It can be done but it is not easy. > > Have you seen this great website that details the early role of some Montgomeries in Ulster? > http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ > > It is basically the story of two private Scots plantations. > > Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for this. I didn't know that Ireland had its own Google search engine! Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of D H Sent: December-30-11 8:31 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 6, Issue 329 Don't forget you get great results on the Irish Google search engine!! www.google.ie then search "Bell" AND "ahoghill" etc.... On 31/12/2011 02:52, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on > record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 > > In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary > Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell > > And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, > Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" > > Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This is my one....Hugh Montgomery (1794-1867) who was the second son of Hugh<http://www.lisburn.com/books/volume5-05.JPG> Montgomery (1743-1832) of Benvarden, Co. Antrim, President of Belfast Chamber of Commerce 1802-03 and founder, in 1809, of Montgomery's Bank, forerunner of the Northern Bank On 31/12/2011 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > We're a lot like our ancestors in that we're really attempting to do what most would consider impossible. Instead of conquering the wilderness we're trying to research Scots dirt farmers in the 1700s and earlier in Ireland. It can be done but it is not easy. > > Have you seen this great website that details the early role of some Montgomeries in Ulster? > http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ > > It is basically the story of two private Scots plantations. > > Linda Merle

Linda - My mother was Dorothy Mae Montgomery, born in Butler County, Pa. In the 1930-1940 period, we corresponded with two of my mother's cousins living in Belfast that my mother described as "old maids" I remember them sending Irish calendars at Christmas with black cats symbolizing good luck to the Irish. But don't have any old info or addresses. How do I get some listing of Montgomerys in Belfast in that period of the early 1900's? Thank you for any info. Dr. John R. McMillan P.S/ Oh, I don't think these "old maids" had much education, because when Pearl Harbor attack happened in '41, the cousins wrote to us from Belfast to Penna. and asked if we were anywhere near the "fighting". -----Original Message----- From: lmerle@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 7:35 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] The Montgomerys of 1718 Thanks! You give hope to us all. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 4:24:05 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] The Montgomerys of 1718 This is my one....Hugh Montgomery (1794-1867) who was the second son of Hugh<http://www.lisburn.com/books/volume5-05.JPG> Montgomery (1743-1832) of Benvarden, Co. Antrim, President of Belfast Chamber of Commerce 1802-03 and founder, in 1809, of Montgomery's Bank, forerunner of the Northern Bank On 31/12/2011 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > We're a lot like our ancestors in that we're really attempting to do what > most would consider impossible. Instead of conquering the wilderness we're > trying to research Scots dirt farmers in the 1700s and earlier in Ireland. > It can be done but it is not easy. > > Have you seen this great website that details the early role of some > Montgomeries in Ulster? > http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ > > It is basically the story of two private Scots plantations. > > Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Don't forget you get great results on the Irish Google search engine!! www.google.ie then search "Bell" AND "ahoghill" etc.... On 31/12/2011 02:52, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on > record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 > > In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary > Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell > > And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, > Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" > > Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin.

Hi William, I'm glad you asked us about researching your ancestor before 1718 and not another list, etc. Usually you'll be told that it is impossible trace common Irish who aren't gentry before about 1820 or so, when church records tend to start. It's less grim for Protestants because they will be indentified in the kinds of records we got in the earlier periods. However how to do this is rarely taught or written about. And I might add, it is not easy. It is basically a research project. All genealogy is, but usually easier research projects <grin>. It requires that you learn some skills that might be new to you, or not. The other thing you need to learn is some Ulster history. This is different from generic Irish history. It is also said of Irish genealogy that it is about local history, local history and local history. There are many books published on communities like Aghadowey and church histories as well. I have a small collection, but they're in County Antrim. The FHL in Salt Lake has a huge collection. The fastest way to get an idea of what records we have is to view the Fianna pages: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/guide/index.html You will then move to county pages. In some counties and parishes you have censuses for 1821 and 1831 and for others you don't, for example. I recently did some work in Aghadowey and in an history of the area I learned that during the 1641 Rising all the Protestants were killed or run off. Afterwards there was a 100% turnover of names of Protestants. So Woodside or his ancestors would have come there afterwards. You can usually find some information on ministers in Fasti. That is the name for collections of biographies of Presbyterian ministers. Now a huge problem I must tell you about. There are three types of Presbyterians and each has their own Fasti. The orthodox or mainstream ones are the largest. Then you have the APs and the RPs (associates and reformeds). Where do you find these? The FHL has them. A seminary has copies as well. Here in Pittsburgh the main seminary has the orthodox and the RP seminary has the RPs. They tend to self-segregate. One of them has published records of the Irish synods back to the start in the early 1700s! They're fantastic resources. Probably you can find some info on Woodsides fairly easily because the Cascoe Bay people have been well documented. Research his farm -- did he pay taxes before the Revolution? The reason I ask is many of the New England settlers were veterans of the Derry Siege. They were excepted from taxes for life. However Woodside is not in "Defenders of the Plantation of Ulster," compiled by Brian Mitchell. It has the muster roll of the garrison of Derry during the Rising from 1642-3 and an index to the book "Defenders of Ireland during the Williamite War of 1689-1691". However many muster rolls survive for Ulster in the 1642 period, etc, etc. We're a lot like our ancestors in that we're really attempting to do what most would consider impossible. Instead of conquering the wilderness we're trying to research Scots dirt farmers in the 1700s and earlier in Ireland. It can be done but it is not easy. Have you seen this great website that details the early role of some Montgomeries in Ulster? http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ It is basically the story of two private Scots plantations. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "WJMontgomery" <wjmntgmry@comcast.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 9:27:39 PM Subject: [S-I] The Montgomerys of 1718 I have been observing for quite a while now this S-I Board and firmly believe there is someone out there to direct me to find records about Aghadowey and Garvagh from the period my ancestor, William Montgomery b 1675, and family, emigrated to America in 1718. Along with his brothers Robert and Hugh and father Robert and all their families, they arrived at Boston on September 6 aboard the ship Maccullum along with various ministers to include the Rev. James Woodside of Garvagh. From Boston they sailed to Maine, making settlement at Casco Bay. My interest lies back upon Garvagh, mainly, as this was Rev. Woodside's origins, but can include Aghadowey, as well.. Where might I begin to find records, property and / or Presbysterian, from years leading up to 1718? William Montgomery ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello,   Because of my husband's serious illness one year ago, and his one- year of recovery,  I probably haven't posted to this List in a year or 2.  *     But, I just saw the Town of Lakefield in the Province of Quebec mentioned in a posting.      And that is where my ancestors arrived in the 1823-1825 timeframe.    They initially settled in the "former Township of Gore" which became the Lakefield and Lachute areas of Argenteuil County.    (And Mille Isles nearby.)      So, I wanted to mention that there has been a List for the "former Township of Gore,"  and it used to be active.     I just did a quick check of the archives and see that the surname, DAWSON,  has been mentioned many times.   http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/CAN/CAN-QC-GORETWP.html   And, you will find my ancestors'  surnames mentioned many times.    I am descended from 2 of the 5 couples:   William and Mary (KERR) HENDERSON Samuel and Catherine  (?)  HENDERSON Patrick and Elizabeth  (KERR?)  KERR Miss Elizabeth KERR   (married in Canada to Levi MILLER) John and Ann  (HENDERSON)  KERR   (Robert KERR and Elizabeth HENDERSON were born there in 1827,  married there and had their 5 children there.     By the 1880's,  they and 4 of their children had migrated to Massachusetts.    I cannot find out what happened to their oldest daughter.)   I have mentioned this family-group on this List in past years.     They were born in County Sligo, Ireland, and the couples married there and had at least their first child there.     But, none of their many descendants can find out who their parents were.    People in Ireland tell me that we may .never.  find out.    They were born in the 1780 to 1805 timeframe.   I have also mentioned them on the 2  Quebec Lists,  where the Quebec-Research List is more active.   Betty                (near Lowell, MA, USA)     (on Lists and Boards for 10 yrs.;   now an Admin for 9 Lists and 3 Boards,  including the older List for CAN-USA-Migration and the newer Board for  New-England-Research)    (already the New-Eng-Gen List) (and I started up a List for the Laurentian Mountains but it is not active)   * My husband was "damn lucky"  to survive a "brain aneurysm" one year ago.     But, he continues to recover from that 9 hrs. of brain surgery.    He is fine and healthy,  but it appears his problem with "short-term memory" will be with him for a while.        (As I've talked to people,  I hear way too many sad stories about aneurysms,  and I've heard that the aneurysms which happen inside the body  (not head) usually - kill.)

Hi Margaret, The destruction thing throws everyone off. It's true the records situation in Ireland can be grim, but it's because records were not kept because the institutions didn't work. A parish system that functioned in England and Scotland and Wales didn't work at all in Ireland, for example. Lots of things that worked elsewhere didn't work here, including assimilation of the British natives. Worked more or less in Scotland and Wales. Didn't work at all in Ireland. Moving on to the non-existence of public education and outlawing Irish. The latter was probably the fatal error as it ensured that the people in the Gaeltachts could not assimilate, even if they wanted to. It was really stupid, but hindsights' a hundred percent, as they say. The other gotcha is that almost all Irish courses and books are written for researching Catholics. The process is different for Protestants simply because they are more likely to be named in the kinds of records that we have, earlier than the 19th century: muster lists, etc, etc. It's good to use a book like Ryan "Irish Records", or the Fianna website, to ID all the easy to get types of records, btw. The records at www.familysearch.org can save you a bundle of money -- though we appreciate your support of Emerald Ancestors! Sometimes indexes are not right and two different indexes helps a lot too. I do have Kidd's -- but in in Carriden in West Lothian, Scotland, in the late 1600s (or so I believe today <grin>). The stretch of coast that is now southeastern Scotland and northeastern England was settled by waves of Angles, as we call them now, Germanic people from the lowlands. Some probably living in the lost Doggerland, sunken 6000 years ago. Some were in situ before the Romans, it is now believed by some, among them probably my father's ancestors. In any case they all spoke the same language -- one of the ancestors of English, for over 2000 years there. In fact it was all one kingdom, after a period of being many small kingdoms, all speaking the same tongue. To the west and north were Celts. So when it came to taking surnames, they all ended up with the same ones. I am always finding my Durham surnames in Scotland too. The Bells were one of the larger Border clans: http://www.clanbell.org/ Thus you find a lot of them fled to Ulster when King James started cleaning house in the early 1600s. Full list here: http://www.bordergathering.co.uk/clans.asp . Once King James shut down the reiving they had to do something to survive. Most moved, many to the areas that were becoming industrialized, which is why Durham, in my case. We all know about the McNutts. Just don't try selling us any land <grin>. My personal experience with the Border clans (via an Internet list I started) is they are far meaner than we are. They caused much high blood pressure. I had to find someone else to take the list. Intermarriage with the Irish has mellowed us out. (Pass the harp and the mead, please....) Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 7:30:04 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Linda! THANKS ever so much in responding!!! That is GREAT! Thanks clearing the waters about the records destruction "thing". I am a member of Ancestry.ca and they had a "new" thing about Irish Genealogy, but I've found that Ancestry tends to be super slanted towards The US. I was able to "find" the Bell who came to Canada in the 1916 Census for Saskatchewan and worked my way back to his birth in Ireland. His Own unusual first name (I was told it was "Abrahm", but turns out it Was "Abraham" (so obviously we're talking Protestant here, not RC), and found his baptism on Hugh Wallis' IGI site. Then went to the Emeraldancestors (one of the websites you mentioned - thank you), and found the Civil Registration of his birth. That helped a lot. There were 2 Abraham Bells, both born around the same time (probably cousins of some sort) in Antrim. Emeraldancestors also had the Civil Registration Of Abraham's parents, so I've sent for that. I've done some sleuthing on the general Bell family. They were very prolific, and seemed to straddle the border between England and Scotland. That probably explains why your ancestor was in Durham. Incidentally, I too Have ancestors from Durham. Eggleston to be exact. Kidd. And that name is In Scotland, England AND Ireland. So much for people "staying put" and not "moving more than 10 miles from the place they were born". Ha! Anyway, THANKS for your reply. I'll definitely have to immerse myself in Irish genealogy. My McNutt ancestors came from Ireland (Donegal province) To the US, and then to Canada. I've been able to trace them back to Scotland (McNaughtons)and then back to Charlemagne. Hope you have a fantastic year in 2012!! Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: December-30-11 7:21 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Margaret, I'm assuming you are 'here' because the Bells were Protestant. Of course most Irish people were Catholic and so most Irish genealogy courses and methodologies focus on Catholic records, etc. Our area of expertise here is Protestants and their records. Hopefully you are in the right place. If you're talking the 1870s there is probably at least one generation to go yet in civil registration. You can get much free at the FHL. In fact the indexes are online. See their four record collections here: https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084 I have also used a commercial site: http://www.emeraldancestors.com/index.asp An index to many church records is here: http://www.rootsireland.ie/ . Some of the records may be in the FHL . There are many myths about the Four Courts Fire in 1922. One of them is that all the records were destroyed. However what was destroyed were several record groups, largely wills and Church of Ireland records. Also some Parliamentary records. Most Irish people did not write wills at all. They had nothing to leave to any descendants. Most did not attend the Church of Ireland. Most also were not identified in old Parliamentary records because they were poor tenant farmers. So actually this event had very little impact on us, descended, as a list member here likes to say, from the third spearman from the left. Furthermore it's generally true throughout Irish history that the further you get from Dublin the less likely there is of any mention of your ancestors occuring in its records. Antrim is very far from Dublin. Many efforts were made after the fire to overcome the lose. There are secondary collections of wills and will indexes as well as a many collections made by prominant geneaologists. These collections are microfilmed and in the FHL. However expensive genealogists were employed to find or invent the right past for families with new money so that they could purchase a title. The third spearman from the left and his ancestors had no money to hire genealogists or interest in obtaining a title (though they may have bragged about descent from some such in the local pub when drinking too much <grin>). The censuses were not destroyed in the Fire but by stupid people who couldn't see the need to keep them around. Sometimes people think they were. You basically need to learn to do Irish genealogy. Can't be taught in an email, alas! There are some good books out there. "A Genealogists Guide to Discovering your Irish Ancestors" is one. Most of them focus on 19th century records because going earlier than that is very difficult. The church records peter out about 1820 or so, sometimes much later. However there are census substitutes (Tithe Applotment and Griffiths Valuation) and many other records for the 19th century (directories, local history, etc). Earlier records favor Protestants: muster lists, freemens lists, etc. Local history is important here too. If you can identify the precise townland where they lived in Aghoghill that would help ID the estate. You can pursue estate records. If you can id the precise religion that will also help you out. Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" is the ultimate book on Irish genealogy. It's a two volume work. It has chapters on each religion that provide its history in Ireland and where to go to find records. I think we recently had a discussion on Methodist records. Apparently the majority of baptisms and marriages (there were several types of Methodists) are in the Church of Ireland. I have Bells but they were in Durham, England -- apparently headed south from the Borders. Not too long ago found out the name of my ancestress' father after a very long search due to a proliferation of chapels of ease and a huge number of Bells. Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 10:00:44 PM Subject: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Dear Fellow Listers, I have recently acquired a daughter-in-law, so am in the process of adding her line onto my family tree. I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin. I have been led to understand that a lot of records were destroyed in 1922, including Census that might help "clear the muddied waters'. Any suggestions? Thanks, very muchly, advance for any and all assistance. Yours truly, Margaret McNutt Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Once again, THANKS, Linda!!! The Bells that I'm trying to pin down were Presbyterian (Abraham Bell was baptised in the Ahoghill Presybterian Church) and if I've "found" the right marriage for his parents, they were married in a Presbyterian Church too. Don't know if they were ever involved in military stuff, but most likely, so another great area to look at. About my McNutt's - yeah. One of my clan was either the greatest entrepreneur in early Canadian history, or the worst "land speculation rogue" you can think of. My Dad was always very careful to say that the "Colonel" was a "Cousin" of the progenitor of our line, and not a direct ancestor. I prefer to think that I am 5th generation "Canadian" on my Dad's side. Hee, Hee. I've used Scotland's people in the past to "sort out" very confusing lines on my husband's side, and the Free BMD to get a handle on stuff in the UK. You are quite correct in saying that it's sometimes best to look at more than one index, and then if more than 50% certain, to order in the certificate/film/ etc. etc. I get your point about the clearances that good old King Jimmy did. I was Curious about the "Ulster Plantation" thing, and thought that my McNutts and "my" Bells were part of that. I've since learned that Antrim was not in the Plantation thing, but Donegal was (if memory serves, Donegal was a "servitor" settlement?). If so, the Bells fleeing to Ireland to escape what KJ was doing makes sense. Similarly, military service was "the family way" so receiving a "servitor settlement" in Donegal by my McNutt ancestors makes perfect sense. It is interesting that the reason my line settled in Nova Scotia was getting a homestead for recognition of military service in the English Forces in the mid 1700's. I'm also finding some of my family names from Durham and Westmorland "up in Scotland" too, and trying to unweave the tangled web is a big challenge. Thanks again for your help and your tips! Are we having fun, yet? Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: December-30-11 7:53 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Margaret, The destruction thing throws everyone off. It's true the records situation in Ireland can be grim, but it's because records were not kept because the institutions didn't work. A parish system that functioned in England and Scotland and Wales didn't work at all in Ireland, for example. Lots of things that worked elsewhere didn't work here, including assimilation of the British natives. Worked more or less in Scotland and Wales. Didn't work at all in Ireland. Moving on to the non-existence of public education and outlawing Irish. The latter was probably the fatal error as it ensured that the people in the Gaeltachts could not assimilate, even if they wanted to. It was really stupid, but hindsights' a hundred percent, as they say. The other gotcha is that almost all Irish courses and books are written for researching Catholics. The process is different for Protestants simply because they are more likely to be named in the kinds of records that we have, earlier than the 19th century: muster lists, etc, etc. It's good to use a book like Ryan "Irish Records", or the Fianna website, to ID all the easy to get types of records, btw. The records at www.familysearch.org can save you a bundle of money -- though we appreciate your support of Emerald Ancestors! Sometimes indexes are not right and two different indexes helps a lot too. I do have Kidd's -- but in in Carriden in West Lothian, Scotland, in the late 1600s (or so I believe today <grin>). The stretch of coast that is now southeastern Scotland and northeastern England was settled by waves of Angles, as we call them now, Germanic people from the lowlands. Some probably living in the lost Doggerland, sunken 6000 years ago. Some were in situ before the Romans, it is now believed by some, among them probably my father's ancestors. In any case they all spoke the same language -- one of the ancestors of English, for over 2000 years there. In fact it was all one kingdom, after a period of being many small kingdoms, all speaking the same tongue. To the west and north were Celts. So when it came to taking surnames, they all ended up with the same ones. I am always finding my Durham surnames in Scotland too. The Bells were one of the larger Border clans: http://www.clanbell.org/ Thus you find a lot of them fled to Ulster when King James started cleaning house in the early 1600s. Full list here: http://www.bordergathering.co.uk/clans.asp . Once King James shut down the reiving they had to do something to survive. Most moved, many to the areas that were becoming industrialized, which is why Durham, in my case. We all know about the McNutts. Just don't try selling us any land <grin>. My personal experience with the Border clans (via an Internet list I started) is they are far meaner than we are. They caused much high blood pressure. I had to find someone else to take the list. Intermarriage with the Irish has mellowed us out. (Pass the harp and the mead, please....) Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 7:30:04 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Linda! THANKS ever so much in responding!!! That is GREAT! Thanks clearing the waters about the records destruction "thing". I am a member of Ancestry.ca and they had a "new" thing about Irish Genealogy, but I've found that Ancestry tends to be super slanted towards The US. I was able to "find" the Bell who came to Canada in the 1916 Census for Saskatchewan and worked my way back to his birth in Ireland. His Own unusual first name (I was told it was "Abrahm", but turns out it Was "Abraham" (so obviously we're talking Protestant here, not RC), and found his baptism on Hugh Wallis' IGI site. Then went to the Emeraldancestors (one of the websites you mentioned - thank you), and found the Civil Registration of his birth. That helped a lot. There were 2 Abraham Bells, both born around the same time (probably cousins of some sort) in Antrim. Emeraldancestors also had the Civil Registration Of Abraham's parents, so I've sent for that. I've done some sleuthing on the general Bell family. They were very prolific, and seemed to straddle the border between England and Scotland. That probably explains why your ancestor was in Durham. Incidentally, I too Have ancestors from Durham. Eggleston to be exact. Kidd. And that name is In Scotland, England AND Ireland. So much for people "staying put" and not "moving more than 10 miles from the place they were born". Ha! Anyway, THANKS for your reply. I'll definitely have to immerse myself in Irish genealogy. My McNutt ancestors came from Ireland (Donegal province) To the US, and then to Canada. I've been able to trace them back to Scotland (McNaughtons)and then back to Charlemagne. Hope you have a fantastic year in 2012!! Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: December-30-11 7:21 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Margaret, I'm assuming you are 'here' because the Bells were Protestant. Of course most Irish people were Catholic and so most Irish genealogy courses and methodologies focus on Catholic records, etc. Our area of expertise here is Protestants and their records. Hopefully you are in the right place. If you're talking the 1870s there is probably at least one generation to go yet in civil registration. You can get much free at the FHL. In fact the indexes are online. See their four record collections here: https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084 I have also used a commercial site: http://www.emeraldancestors.com/index.asp An index to many church records is here: http://www.rootsireland.ie/ . Some of the records may be in the FHL . There are many myths about the Four Courts Fire in 1922. One of them is that all the records were destroyed. However what was destroyed were several record groups, largely wills and Church of Ireland records. Also some Parliamentary records. Most Irish people did not write wills at all. They had nothing to leave to any descendants. Most did not attend the Church of Ireland. Most also were not identified in old Parliamentary records because they were poor tenant farmers. So actually this event had very little impact on us, descended, as a list member here likes to say, from the third spearman from the left. Furthermore it's generally true throughout Irish history that the further you get from Dublin the less likely there is of any mention of your ancestors occuring in its records. Antrim is very far from Dublin. Many efforts were made after the fire to overcome the lose. There are secondary collections of wills and will indexes as well as a many collections made by prominant geneaologists. These collections are microfilmed and in the FHL. However expensive genealogists were employed to find or invent the right past for families with new money so that they could purchase a title. The third spearman from the left and his ancestors had no money to hire genealogists or interest in obtaining a title (though they may have bragged about descent from some such in the local pub when drinking too much <grin>). The censuses were not destroyed in the Fire but by stupid people who couldn't see the need to keep them around. Sometimes people think they were. You basically need to learn to do Irish genealogy. Can't be taught in an email, alas! There are some good books out there. "A Genealogists Guide to Discovering your Irish Ancestors" is one. Most of them focus on 19th century records because going earlier than that is very difficult. The church records peter out about 1820 or so, sometimes much later. However there are census substitutes (Tithe Applotment and Griffiths Valuation) and many other records for the 19th century (directories, local history, etc). Earlier records favor Protestants: muster lists, freemens lists, etc. Local history is important here too. If you can identify the precise townland where they lived in Aghoghill that would help ID the estate. You can pursue estate records. If you can id the precise religion that will also help you out. Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" is the ultimate book on Irish genealogy. It's a two volume work. It has chapters on each religion that provide its history in Ireland and where to go to find records. I think we recently had a discussion on Methodist records. Apparently the majority of baptisms and marriages (there were several types of Methodists) are in the Church of Ireland. I have Bells but they were in Durham, England -- apparently headed south from the Borders. Not too long ago found out the name of my ancestress' father after a very long search due to a proliferation of chapels of ease and a huge number of Bells. Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 10:00:44 PM Subject: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Dear Fellow Listers, I have recently acquired a daughter-in-law, so am in the process of adding her line onto my family tree. I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin. I have been led to understand that a lot of records were destroyed in 1922, including Census that might help "clear the muddied waters'. Any suggestions? Thanks, very muchly, advance for any and all assistance. Yours truly, Margaret McNutt Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Crowley project is a five year project at the National Archives of Ireland, to catalogue to international archival standards, the registered papers of the Office of Chief Secretary of Ireland from 1818 to 1852, in order to facilitate public access to one of the most valuable sources of original material for research on Ireland in the first half of the nineteenth century. The project also employs a dedicated conservator to conserve the papers once they are listed. The project was made possible by a bequest from the late Professor Francis J Crowley. Born in New Haven, Connecticut, Professor Crowley was educated at Yale and Princeton, and became a professor of French at the University of California at Los Angeles. Both his parents were born in Ireland, and in his will he bequeathed most of his estate to the Republic of Ireland to be used for the preservation of records of the history of the Irish people. Work commenced in September 2008, and we are delighted to be able to offer public access to the *online catalogue* for the first 5 years of papers which have now been listed: 1818, 1819, 1820, 1821 and 1822. These items are available for consultation at the reading room of the *National Archives of Ireland*, according to usual procedures. Cataloguing of the years 1823 and 1824 is currently in progress and these lists will be added to this website when complete. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Searchable by location, names etc at http://www.csorp.nationalarchives.ie/

I have been observing for quite a while now this S-I Board and firmly believe there is someone out there to direct me to find records about Aghadowey and Garvagh from the period my ancestor, William Montgomery b 1675, and family, emigrated to America in 1718. Along with his brothers Robert and Hugh and father Robert and all their families, they arrived at Boston on September 6 aboard the ship Maccullum along with various ministers to include the Rev. James Woodside of Garvagh. From Boston they sailed to Maine, making settlement at Casco Bay. My interest lies back upon Garvagh, mainly, as this was Rev. Woodside's origins, but can include Aghadowey, as well.. Where might I begin to find records, property and / or Presbysterian, from years leading up to 1718? William Montgomery

Hi Linda! THANKS ever so much in responding!!! That is GREAT! Thanks clearing the waters about the records destruction "thing". I am a member of Ancestry.ca and they had a "new" thing about Irish Genealogy, but I've found that Ancestry tends to be super slanted towards The US. I was able to "find" the Bell who came to Canada in the 1916 Census for Saskatchewan and worked my way back to his birth in Ireland. His Own unusual first name (I was told it was "Abrahm", but turns out it Was "Abraham" (so obviously we're talking Protestant here, not RC), and found his baptism on Hugh Wallis' IGI site. Then went to the Emeraldancestors (one of the websites you mentioned - thank you), and found the Civil Registration of his birth. That helped a lot. There were 2 Abraham Bells, both born around the same time (probably cousins of some sort) in Antrim. Emeraldancestors also had the Civil Registration Of Abraham's parents, so I've sent for that. I've done some sleuthing on the general Bell family. They were very prolific, and seemed to straddle the border between England and Scotland. That probably explains why your ancestor was in Durham. Incidentally, I too Have ancestors from Durham. Eggleston to be exact. Kidd. And that name is In Scotland, England AND Ireland. So much for people "staying put" and not "moving more than 10 miles from the place they were born". Ha! Anyway, THANKS for your reply. I'll definitely have to immerse myself in Irish genealogy. My McNutt ancestors came from Ireland (Donegal province) To the US, and then to Canada. I've been able to trace them back to Scotland (McNaughtons)and then back to Charlemagne. Hope you have a fantastic year in 2012!! Margaret -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: December-30-11 7:21 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Hi Margaret, I'm assuming you are 'here' because the Bells were Protestant. Of course most Irish people were Catholic and so most Irish genealogy courses and methodologies focus on Catholic records, etc. Our area of expertise here is Protestants and their records. Hopefully you are in the right place. If you're talking the 1870s there is probably at least one generation to go yet in civil registration. You can get much free at the FHL. In fact the indexes are online. See their four record collections here: https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084 I have also used a commercial site: http://www.emeraldancestors.com/index.asp An index to many church records is here: http://www.rootsireland.ie/ . Some of the records may be in the FHL . There are many myths about the Four Courts Fire in 1922. One of them is that all the records were destroyed. However what was destroyed were several record groups, largely wills and Church of Ireland records. Also some Parliamentary records. Most Irish people did not write wills at all. They had nothing to leave to any descendants. Most did not attend the Church of Ireland. Most also were not identified in old Parliamentary records because they were poor tenant farmers. So actually this event had very little impact on us, descended, as a list member here likes to say, from the third spearman from the left. Furthermore it's generally true throughout Irish history that the further you get from Dublin the less likely there is of any mention of your ancestors occuring in its records. Antrim is very far from Dublin. Many efforts were made after the fire to overcome the lose. There are secondary collections of wills and will indexes as well as a many collections made by prominant geneaologists. These collections are microfilmed and in the FHL. However expensive genealogists were employed to find or invent the right past for families with new money so that they could purchase a title. The third spearman from the left and his ancestors had no money to hire genealogists or interest in obtaining a title (though they may have bragged about descent from some such in the local pub when drinking too much <grin>). The censuses were not destroyed in the Fire but by stupid people who couldn't see the need to keep them around. Sometimes people think they were. You basically need to learn to do Irish genealogy. Can't be taught in an email, alas! There are some good books out there. "A Genealogists Guide to Discovering your Irish Ancestors" is one. Most of them focus on 19th century records because going earlier than that is very difficult. The church records peter out about 1820 or so, sometimes much later. However there are census substitutes (Tithe Applotment and Griffiths Valuation) and many other records for the 19th century (directories, local history, etc). Earlier records favor Protestants: muster lists, freemens lists, etc. Local history is important here too. If you can identify the precise townland where they lived in Aghoghill that would help ID the estate. You can pursue estate records. If you can id the precise religion that will also help you out. Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" is the ultimate book on Irish genealogy. It's a two volume work. It has chapters on each religion that provide its history in Ireland and where to go to find records. I think we recently had a discussion on Methodist records. Apparently the majority of baptisms and marriages (there were several types of Methodists) are in the Church of Ireland. I have Bells but they were in Durham, England -- apparently headed south from the Borders. Not too long ago found out the name of my ancestress' father after a very long search due to a proliferation of chapels of ease and a huge number of Bells. Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 10:00:44 PM Subject: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Dear Fellow Listers, I have recently acquired a daughter-in-law, so am in the process of adding her line onto my family tree. I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin. I have been led to understand that a lot of records were destroyed in 1922, including Census that might help "clear the muddied waters'. Any suggestions? Thanks, very muchly, advance for any and all assistance. Yours truly, Margaret McNutt Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Happy New Year I found your email on line in a rootweb.com thread on the Scott Irish in early Lakefield, Quebec, Canada records. http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/Scotch-Irish/2008-01/1199391637 I am wondering if you have any records on your early maps of Lakefield government grants (100 acres) to settlers in the early 1800's that could apply to a Joseph Dawson and his wife, Jane Fleming, who we think might be from Ematris Parish, Monaghan County, Ireland (Church of England or Protestant Scot/Irish). Joseph and his wife would probably have been born in Ematris around 1780-1790 or so. I am also wondering about an Edward Dawson, born in 1700's, who would have been granted land in the same place. Thank you! Sue Leighton (DAWSON) Smith New Canaan, CT slsmith112@gmail.com

Hi Margaret, I'm assuming you are 'here' because the Bells were Protestant. Of course most Irish people were Catholic and so most Irish genealogy courses and methodologies focus on Catholic records, etc. Our area of expertise here is Protestants and their records. Hopefully you are in the right place. If you're talking the 1870s there is probably at least one generation to go yet in civil registration. You can get much free at the FHL. In fact the indexes are online. See their four record collections here: https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1&countryId=1927084 I have also used a commercial site: http://www.emeraldancestors.com/index.asp An index to many church records is here: http://www.rootsireland.ie/ . Some of the records may be in the FHL . There are many myths about the Four Courts Fire in 1922. One of them is that all the records were destroyed. However what was destroyed were several record groups, largely wills and Church of Ireland records. Also some Parliamentary records. Most Irish people did not write wills at all. They had nothing to leave to any descendants. Most did not attend the Church of Ireland. Most also were not identified in old Parliamentary records because they were poor tenant farmers. So actually this event had very little impact on us, descended, as a list member here likes to say, from the third spearman from the left. Furthermore it's generally true throughout Irish history that the further you get from Dublin the less likely there is of any mention of your ancestors occuring in its records. Antrim is very far from Dublin. Many efforts were made after the fire to overcome the lose. There are secondary collections of wills and will indexes as well as a many collections made by prominant geneaologists. These collections are microfilmed and in the FHL. However expensive genealogists were employed to find or invent the right past for families with new money so that they could purchase a title. The third spearman from the left and his ancestors had no money to hire genealogists or interest in obtaining a title (though they may have bragged about descent from some such in the local pub when drinking too much <grin>). The censuses were not destroyed in the Fire but by stupid people who couldn't see the need to keep them around. Sometimes people think they were. You basically need to learn to do Irish genealogy. Can't be taught in an email, alas! There are some good books out there. "A Genealogists Guide to Discovering your Irish Ancestors" is one. Most of them focus on 19th century records because going earlier than that is very difficult. The church records peter out about 1820 or so, sometimes much later. However there are census substitutes (Tithe Applotment and Griffiths Valuation) and many other records for the 19th century (directories, local history, etc). Earlier records favor Protestants: muster lists, freemens lists, etc. Local history is important here too. If you can identify the precise townland where they lived in Aghoghill that would help ID the estate. You can pursue estate records. If you can id the precise religion that will also help you out. Falley "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" is the ultimate book on Irish genealogy. It's a two volume work. It has chapters on each religion that provide its history in Ireland and where to go to find records. I think we recently had a discussion on Methodist records. Apparently the majority of baptisms and marriages (there were several types of Methodists) are in the Church of Ireland. I have Bells but they were in Durham, England -- apparently headed south from the Borders. Not too long ago found out the name of my ancestress' father after a very long search due to a proliferation of chapels of ease and a huge number of Bells. Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Taylor" <taylormw@shaw.ca> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 10:00:44 PM Subject: [S-I] Bells from Antrim Dear Fellow Listers, I have recently acquired a daughter-in-law, so am in the process of adding her line onto my family tree. I'm trying to track down the origins of the John Bell, who is the father on record of Abraham Bell, born 12 April 1873 In Ballymena, Ahoghill, Antrim. The mother on the birth record is Mary Bell. I've found a marriage for a John Bell And a Mary McMeekin in the quarter starting August 1865, in Ballymen, Aghoghill, Antrim. So pretty sure "my" Abraham's mother was Mary McMeekin. I have been led to understand that a lot of records were destroyed in 1922, including Census that might help "clear the muddied waters'. Any suggestions? Thanks, very muchly, advance for any and all assistance. Yours truly, Margaret McNutt Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi folks, The state continues to add digital content to the on line Pennsylvania archives. It's amazing what you can do! The master index is the warrant registers, on line now for years. You can now drill down to view the actual survey. You start here: http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=3184&&SortOrder=100&level=4&parentCommID=3162&menuLevel=Level_4&mode=2 Select Warrant Registers. Then select county. They didn't begin recording warrants in future counties because they didn't know at the time there would be a future county having failed "Crystal Ball, 101" class. So you often need to check the parent county. I selected Cumberland. Then there is a page which lets you choose pages alphabetically by surname. I selected page 1 of the Ms because I know that's where William McCamish's warrant is recorded in 1751. Up comes an image of page 1 of the Ms of the warrant register for Cumberland County. In the far right colums are the locations where the warrant and the survey are recorded. The copied surveys are now on line too. By noting I wanted C128 274 (Translation: series "C", book 128, page 274, from the warrant register, I went to the URL given above and selected "Copied Surveys" (right next to warrant registers). http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/bah/dam/rg/di/r17-114CopiedSurveyBooks/r17-114MainInterfacePage.htm I locate the C series and select it, then go to 128 and select it. Then to page 274. Up comes the survey! Note that William warranted the land in 1751. He was living there. We know because he was put in charge of overseeing the poor, which is hard to do from Derry or even Philadelphia. The survey wasn't done till 1801 (from memory), after the property had changed hands. There is a later deed -- the first -- that describes the whole process. That deed was 1824 -- 75 years after Wm. started hacking down the trees on that land. http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/bah/dam/rg/di/r17-114CopiedSurveyBooks/Books%20C1-C234/Book%20C128/Book%20C-128%20pg%20547.pdf It's very cute! Linda Merle

Hi Joan, check the exact location where they lived. There was an early Scots colony in New Jersey. I learned this in a book by Dobson. It is on the CD: " Scottish Immigrants to North America, 1600s-1800s. The Collected Works of David Dobson. Volume One ." Though I have the book. His work is invaluable for distinguishing between the Scots and the Scotch Irish as well as various types of Scots who manifested in English colonies. Some willingly, some not. The worse news was that apparently the Scots engaged in a brisk illegal trade business. Often the product was tobacco, which was loaded from tiny dockings on the Chesapeake. Meaning there are no records of who lived there illegally or who jumped off the boat. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: JYoung6180@aol.com To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 6:40:57 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Free indexes Further on this same topic...in South Jersey I have run into some DENNYs and CLARKs that seem to puzzle their descendants because it had been assumed (and still is by many) that both were Scotch-Irish but when you look at who they married and the churches they belonged to you find they ALWAYS married Swedes and almost always belonged to Lutheran and Moravian Churches frequented by the Swedes and Germans. Joan In a message dated 12/29/2011 6:36:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, JYoung6180@aol.com writes: The same goes for MARTIN -- I found as many German MARTINs as I did Scotch-Irish...and York County, PA is a melting pot where you will find both...so never ASSume. There are also Swedish COOKs! Many of the Jersey COOKs were Early Swedes who descend from a COCK (the ship's cook...when the immigrants adopted an "alias" because they didn't have an actual surname they often used their occupation for their surname). Joan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message