Hi John, another one is Jonathan Bardon's "Plantation of Ulster ". I have it on order but haven't read it yet. The Blurb says: "The Plantation of Ulster was the most ambitious scheme of colonisation ever attempted in modern Europe, and one of the largest European migrations of the period. It was a pivotal episode in Irish history, sending shock waves reverberating down the centuries. In this vivid account, the author punctures some generally held assumptions: despite slaughter and famine, the province was not completely depopulated as was often asserted at the time; the native Irish were not deliberately given the most infertile land; some of the most energetic planters were Catholic; and the Catholic Church there emerged stronger than before. Above all, natives and newcomers fused to a greater degree than is widely believed: apart from recent immigrants, nearly all Ulster people today have the blood of both Planter and Gael flowing in their veins. Nevertheless, memories of dispossession and massacre, etched into the folk memory, were to ignite explosive outbreaks of intercommunal conflict down to our own time. The Plantation was also the beginning of a far greater exodus to North America. Subsequently, descendants of Ulster planters crossed the Atlantic in their tens of thousands to play a central role in shaping the United States of America." Another is "The Plantation of Ulster" by Philip Robinson. It focuses on the process of colonization. Somewhere there's another book I like, but I can't find it right now. Later in history ....I see on my bookshelf "Cromwellian Ireland" by T C Barnard and "The Williamite War in Ireland 1688-1691" by Richard Doherty. Bardon's "History of Ulster" is probably the best (certainly the thickest) general history of Ulster. I also found, for general history of Ulster and its inhabitants, Elliott's "Catholics of Ulster" very interesting reading no matter who you think your ancestors were. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Carey" <johnca@quickclic.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:23:07 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down It's not a scholarly book but you might check out http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David N. Young Sent: January-28-12 12:11 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] Plantation of Down Can anyone please recommend a good modern scholarly book about the plantation in [present] Co. Down [that Linda mentioned as being different than the others in the Irish N. East? Thanks ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dave, thanks so much for this story. We believe every one follows the rules. Yet, as Agnew's book "Merchants of Belfast" makes clear, there was a lot of illegal trading going on with people all over Europe. I forgot to mention the Templar castles up and down the west coast of Ireland. We know almost nothing about them or the men who lived there. Black was apparently the Euro-costume for old ladies. The old Greek ladies, the old Italian ladies, old ladies everywhere it seems. Now it's .... sweats?? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:31:40 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? Well this reminds me of someone I met just over 30 years ago! Many people visualize Irish women dressed in black and wearing a black shawl which many did, although this has pretty much died out. One day I was just walking in a fishing village just north of Dublin when I noticed an elderly woman dressed in this 'costume' who was calling me over to her gateway. I went over and asked was she OK? to which she asked if I could spare a few minutes to read a letter from her brother in America to her as she couldn't read. I went into the house to read the letter to her, we got talking and she told me she was originally from a fishing village in Mayo and over the 2 hours I was in her house she told me about all the various nationalities that used to frequent the western coast from France right down to Morocco and further south plus Mediterranean countries ..With tales of smuggling, fishing, marriages etc the time just flew by... even today this Mayo fishing village is quite remote yet it was an 'international hub' by all accounts and certainly was not a backwater! Oh if only I had written down half of what she told me!! This elderly lady was in her 90's at the time........ From:lmerle@comcast.net Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <1416672830.458040.1327764228549.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Amen!! All kinds of people lived in Ireland. Belfast was home of a small Welsh colony in the late 1500s. During the 1600s many Dutch and other continentals came to Belfast as merchants. It must be recalled that before the union of the crowns Scotland traded independently of England. It had a wide network of traders in Russia, throughout northern Europe, and among England's traditional enemies (France, Spain, Italy). Ireland also traded independently. Ports like Sligo were very busy with continental connections before finally the English put an end to that and destroyed the old trade routes. Once the western coast of Ireland was not a backwater. It was prosperous in the Middle Ages. It had towns full of lusty soldiers and merchants -- securing business through dynastic marriages to families in Spain, etc. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I missed the original discussion on McLains, but I thought I'd add my two cents anyway. The McLeans of Farrenlester in Dunboe parish, Co. Londonderry, had a major impact on the American Industrial Revolution. Alexander McLean emigrated to Mauch Chunk, Carbon CO., PA about 1820 and began working for the Lehigh Coal and Navigation Co. Soon he became manager of the mines at Summit Hill, PA and retired to Wilkes-Barre, PA as a wealthy man. There he founded the First National Bank of Wilkes-Barre. One of his sons, Sam McLean went to Lafayette College in Easton, PA, studied law and became a mining attorney. He graduated in 1848, just in time to sail to San Francisco and join the California gold rush. He returned about 1855, married, and moved to the Jefferson Territory, based in Denver, where he was the Territory Attorney General 1860-1862. In 1862 he move to Bannack, MT where he was elected in 1864 as the first delegate to Congress from MT. He retired to Burkeville, VA in 1868, bought a plantation that he named "Inverness" and where he died a few years later. He's buried in the churchyard of the First Presbyterian Church of Burkeville. Dan Wilson On 1/28/2012 3:16 PM, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Native Irish McLains? (lmerle@comcast.net) > 2. Re: Plantation of Down (lmerle@comcast.net) > 3. Re: Native Irish McLains? (lmerle@comcast.net) > 4. Re: SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 7, Issue 19--hamilton montgomery > manuscripts (DougB81042@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:15:30 +0000 (UTC) > From: lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1968989155.469213.1327785330875.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Dave, thanks so much for this story. We believe every one follows the rules. Yet, as Agnew's book "Merchants of Belfast" makes clear, there was a lot of illegal trading going on with people all over Europe. > > I forgot to mention the Templar castles up and down the west coast of Ireland. We know almost nothing about them or the men who lived there. > > Black was apparently the Euro-costume for old ladies. The old Greek ladies, the old Italian ladies, old ladies everywhere it seems. > > Now it's .... sweats?? > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "D H"<hallmark1@utvinternet.com> > To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:31:40 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > > Well this reminds me of someone I met just over 30 years ago! > > Many people visualize Irish women dressed in black and wearing a black shawl which many did, although this has pretty much died out. > > One day I was just walking in a fishing village just north of Dublin when I noticed an elderly woman dressed in this 'costume' who was calling me over > to her gateway. I went over and asked was she OK? to which she asked if I could spare a few minutes to read a letter from her brother in America to > her as she couldn't read. > > I went into the house to read the letter to her, we got talking and she told me she was originally from a fishing village in Mayo and over the 2 hours > I was in her house she told me about all the various nationalities that used to frequent the western coast from France right down to Morocco and > further south plus Mediterranean countries ..With tales of smuggling, fishing, marriages etc the time just flew by... even today this Mayo fishing > village is quite remote yet it was an 'international hub' by all accounts and certainly was not a backwater! > > Oh if only I had written down half of what she told me!! This elderly lady was in her 90's at the time........ > > > > From:lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <1416672830.458040.1327764228549.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Amen!! All kinds of people lived in Ireland. Belfast was home of a small Welsh colony in the late 1500s. During the 1600s many Dutch and other > continentals came to Belfast as merchants. It must be recalled that before the union of the crowns Scotland traded independently of England. It had a > wide network of traders in Russia, throughout northern Europe, and among England's traditional enemies (France, Spain, Italy). Ireland also traded > independently. Ports like Sligo were very busy with continental connections before finally the English put an end to that and destroyed the old trade > routes. Once the western coast of Ireland was not a backwater. It was prosperous in the Middle Ages. It had towns full of lusty soldiers and merchants > -- securing business through dynastic marriages to families in Spain, etc. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:29:28 +0000 (UTC) > From: lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <74607641.469702.1327786168693.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi John, another one is Jonathan Bardon's "Plantation of Ulster ". I have it on order but haven't read it yet. The Blurb says: > "The Plantation of Ulster was the most ambitious scheme of colonisation ever attempted in modern Europe, and one of the largest European migrations of the period. It was a pivotal episode in Irish history, sending shock waves reverberating down the centuries. In this vivid account, the author punctures some generally held assumptions: despite slaughter and famine, the province was not completely depopulated as was often asserted at the time; the native Irish were not deliberately given the most infertile land; some of the most energetic planters were Catholic; and the Catholic Church there emerged stronger than before. Above all, natives and newcomers fused to a greater degree than is widely believed: apart from recent immigrants, nearly all Ulster people today have the blood of both Planter and Gael flowing in their veins. Nevertheless, memories of dispossession and massacre, etched into the folk memory, were to ignite explosive outbreaks of intercommunal conflict down to! o! > ur own time. The Plantation was also the beginning of a far greater exodus to North America. Subsequently, descendants of Ulster planters crossed the Atlantic in their tens of thousands to play a central role in shaping the United States of America." > > Another is "The Plantation of Ulster" by Philip Robinson. It focuses on the process of colonization. Somewhere there's another book I like, but I can't find it right now. > > Later in history ....I see on my bookshelf "Cromwellian Ireland" by T C Barnard and "The Williamite War in Ireland 1688-1691" by Richard Doherty. > > Bardon's "History of Ulster" is probably the best (certainly the thickest) general history of Ulster. I also found, for general history of Ulster and its inhabitants, Elliott's "Catholics of Ulster" very interesting reading no matter who you think your ancestors were. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Carey"<johnca@quickclic.net> > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:23:07 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down > > It's not a scholarly book but you might check out > http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ > > John Carey > > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David N. Young > Sent: January-28-12 12:11 PM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: [S-I] Plantation of Down > > Can anyone please recommend a good modern scholarly book about the > plantation in [present] Co. Down [that Linda mentioned as being different > than the others in the Irish N. East? Thanks > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 21:47:35 +0000 (UTC) > From: lmerle@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <406771959.470242.1327787255711.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi Christopher, it's possible your McClains came as soldier/settlers too. Perhaps they came by way of Antrim and the McDonalds or direct from Dunfriess or elsewhere. > > I totally agree with you that, based on the surnames alone, this period was not as black and white as many would like to believe. > > Loughinsholin, etc -- that was the heart of the old O'Neill kingdom, well defended by forest (hacked down by the English) and mountains (they couldn't do much about them). Depending on your point of view it was either the heart of darkness or of light. It was completely lost during the 1641 Rising -- all settlers were slaughtered or run off. > > So as you can see they were either Irish or good soldiers, this much we know<grin>. > > The r1b1c7 list at rootsweb might be able to assist with DNA analysis. I'm assuming M22 plus?? Also the admin of the Ulster Heritage DNA project could assist, but whether he has the time or not, I donno. He certainly knows the DNA of the Irish of central Ulster. Might be able to sort out the McDonalds from the Irish. Maybe!! > > Me mother was a McDonald (ancestors from Antrim), me dad was a Campbell (ancestors surnamed Ure from Scotland).....they fought a lot but enjoyed every minute of it. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Beal"<crbeal@gmail.com> > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34:57 AM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > > Thanks everyone for your insight! > > The John McClane in 1630 was on the vintners proportion of land near > Bellaghy. There does seem to be a small proportion of Scots (Gillaspick, > Campbell, McHale, McGildress and Stuart) appearing on the muster list as > well. I recently got the Ulster army lists and all of the McLains I found > were mustered in Antrim/Down/Donegal (8 of them named John) except for one, > and there were also plenty of Irish surnames in these regiments also so I > learned this time period wasn't as "black and white" as history has made it > out to be. > > One name sticks out as a possiblity: a Thomas Maklane in the Londonderry > garrison mustered in 1643. In the Dumfries parish registers, Gilbert has > sons "Andro", "Elisoune", "Cristian", and "Thomas" being the last baptism > in 1610 before the family disappears from that area. The Andrew McLane of > Tullinisken (Tyrone) parish names a son John in 1667 St. Columb's > > I definitely need to learn more about Loughinsholin in the 1630s, most of > what I read sounds like what was spoken by Bagenal :* ?then the most > inaccessible corner of mountains, woods and bogs in Ulster, formed the main > O?Neill stronghold for cattle and other possessions in time of danger, and > an ultimate refuge for Ulster rebels."* Also stated referencing the 1641 > rebellion I found *"after the rebellion, there were not as much as eight > people in Loughinsholin for years afterward"* which I figured meant > settlers. > > I'm currently reading Leyburn's "The Scotch-Irish: A social history" > which is incredibly infomative and he tells about the natives always > willing to pay the higher rent rather than give up their attachment to > their ancestral homeland. This brings to mind the McLains in the > Loughinsholin area from the 1620s to the late 18th century, but it could > just be these are the leases they could afford and the land they became > attached to. > > I've put together a phylogenic tree of my dna matches and it seems our > lines all cross circa 1600-1650 in Ulster as they are part of the later > diaspora to America and all their surnames are spelled > McLaine/McClaine/McLain > > > > On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:12 AM,<lmerle@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Hi Christopher, >> >> Probably if these men were on a muster roll in the early 1600s they were >> not believed to be Irish by their landlords. If you read up on the >> Plantation (start with Hanna "The Scotch Irish"), you will encounter the >> conditions undertakers had to meet. They included that the undertaker >> settle a certain number of British on the estate and be able to put men in >> the field to defend it with arms. They were also required to evict the >> Irish. They had to be Protestant and their tenants were supposed to be as >> well. They were required to build an English style house (a bawn). etc. etc. >> >> I'm recalling from memory here, so I could be wrong on the details in some >> small ways so do your own research. You get what you pay for and this is >> free. >> >> Two key points to recall here: 1: they were supposed to evict the Irish. >> Key point 2: no one ever follows the law exactly. Not now and not then. >> Some didn't fulfill the conditions and some did. >> >> Some Scots undertakers were Catholic and seeded their estates with Scots >> Catholic tenants. Some did nothing. Most didn't evict their Irish tenants >> or at least not all of them. Why? Because they needed them. They needed >> them to run the estate and to bring in the harvest. No harvest meant >> famine. Oddly enough, Brits die from lack of food as fast as Irish, so they >> tried to avoid famine. In many locations eating required the labor of Irish >> people. >> >> This is a generality and it is generally true. The further east you were >> in Ulster, the more Scots and the less dependency on Irish. This is also a >> generality. It's important to also recall that Antrim and Down were NOT >> SETTLED UNDER THESE LAWS. That's right. They were private plantations -- >> already 'done' by the time the Earls sailed off. So the rules don't apply. >> >> The Antrim estate of the McDonalds comprised highland (Catholic) Scots of >> various degrees of assimilation into Ireland. Ie the McDonalds had been >> there from the mid 1500s. Several generations may have lived there for >> generations. Some were newer. Randal McD. was required to settle lowland >> Protestant farmers amongst his highlanders and so he did. Most of the Irish >> who were there in 1550 were there in 1700 and later. Some were displaced, >> all were 'downsized'. Down I have less info about. As usual the Irish were >> pushed onto bad farming land -- highlands and bog. They were there today if >> you drive around the Mts. of Mourne. >> >> On the McDonald estate the problem in 1630 would be figuring out who was >> Irish and who was not. The highlanders spoke Gaelic and were Catholic like >> the Irish. Frankly, loyality to the McDonalds were probably far more >> important than who your father was. Of course people assimilated, one way >> or another. >> >> Moving west to your area, the further west you go in Ulster, at any time, >> the fewer settlers and the more Irish you had. The higher you go the same >> is true because even Scots farmers can't grow much on rocks. >> >> Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't >> much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against the >> British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or not, >> and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is >> not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The upper >> classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates and >> so had a lot to lose in an uprising. >> >> So you'll have to research the specifics of Loughinsholin at that time to >> determine what estate he lived in and how well off he was and what happened >> there during the settling of the Plantation and later on in 1641 and 2. Are >> there names on the Muster lists of 1642, for example? Those are filmed and >> the FHL. In this case the men were mustered to fight off a rebellion. So if >> they're on them, most likely they were trusted (unless they were spies or >> defected after mustering -- this occurred). >> >> It's important to understand that ethnicity is learned. Most of us have >> the ability to learn. Ethnicity in the early 1600s in Ulster was very >> fluid. There were many ethnicities. Now we look back and ask: PRotestant or >> Catholic? Irish or Scots? Not like that then. If you doubt me read a few >> history books. Bardon in his long history of Ulster details various stories >> of ethnic confusion in 1642 and later -- as when apparently some tenants of >> the McDonalds were slaughtered by Monroe. Why? they spoke Gaelic. McDonald >> was not out in rebellion. Unfortunately Monroe's army was Campbell -- the >> old enemy from Scotland. They were probably slaughtered for being >> McDonalds. Even Scots politics was involved. >> >> What I am saying is additional research is required if you want to >> approach the truth. Due to the paucity of records, you may never know if he >> was a gallowglass (and by 1630 assimilated into the Irish nation) or a >> Scots newcomer. Don't much matter. If your ancestors were in Ulster that >> long and if you could trace them and all their wives' ancestors, you would >> find every kind of person in Ulster. Many many more Irish gals than Irish >> lads in Ulster after the defeat of the O'Neills. Lots of British soldiers >> and settlers with no one to love. >> >> One thing to do is continue to collect DNA matches. You should find >> (eventually) some matches in your area of Ireland, but you should be able >> also to ID Scots 'near matches' or even matches. If those are in the >> western Isles and western Scotland, you can assume they were either >> gallowglass or McDonalds. If Dumfries, lowlanders. Unfortunately some >> lowland clans did migrate to the lowlands, making it more difficult. If >> only God had pasted them all in place!! >> >> In any case the history of the area should be of interest to you because >> most likely, who ever was suffering was somehow related to you as was their >> oppressor. >> >> Determining exactly where they were living also helps. Some townlands were >> full of Irish. In the early days Irish were not allowed to live in the >> towns (for the same reason no one wanted Apaches inside the fort). If they >> lived on a townland that was part of a church estate, that was full of >> Irish surnames, most likely Irish. The church was not required to evict >> Irish, so it provided shelter (such as it was) to many. It's not hard to >> spot one of these in the estate records. Some of the churchlands were >> leased for very long periods (hundred years, etc), so it can be confusing >> determining the history of a townland. Since people did need to get the >> harvest in to avoid starving, the lessee, in one case I researched, and I >> suspect, most cases, were happy to have additional tenants. >> >> What I can tell you about Dungannon and surrounds is that is mountainous >> land and there were always lots of Irish there. It was difficult to attract >> Scots or English (much was an English plantation). However many very Scots >> towns grew up and many have detailed histories. In one case (Magherafelt?) >> a history detailed everyone living in it, but no Irish. Blocks of Irish >> were just indicated "Irish". Very distressing if you wanted to know which >> Irish! The FHL has a huge collection of town, congregational, and parish >> histories. >> >> Maybe someone has some additional insights? >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> Linda Merle >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Christopher Beal"<crbeal@gmail.com> >> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:31:10 AM >> Subject: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? >> >> With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been >> able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700. For a long time I >> thought they were planters from Scotland but after exchanging emails with >> Linda Merle, it seems they could have been native Irish. I did a little >> more research and I'll add my findings. I was lucky enough to find the >> family of brothers in 1660s parish records at St. Columb's in Londonderry >> baptizing their children, these same men also appear on Tyrone's hearth >> rolls in 1663 around Dungannnon (John McOlane, Andrew McClean, John >> Mickline, Neall McLeane, and Patrick McGlaine). Londonderry's records >> seems to add 2 more brothers/cousins: Archibald and William. >> >> Comparing the hearth rolls with the 1740 householders index, these exact >> names repeat very much in Loughinsholin and the descendants of these >> McLains seem to populate Magherafelt, Tamlaght O'Crilly, Kilrea, >> Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan, Maghera, and Kellelagh through that period of >> time. The only records I found earlier than these are the following: >> >> 1630 muster roll: John McClane, on Henry Conway's estate in Loughinsholin, >> Londonderry >> Summonisters roll: "Gilbert McCleene of Clogher" mentioned in Tyrone's >> rolls in 1626. >> >> Would I be correct in assuming that John McClane is an Irish tenant on >> the Londonderry plantation? Through all the turmoil of the 1600s, it seems >> this family stays in Loughinsholin. I've read that Shane O'Neill's >> gallowglass in 1560 were the Macleans of Duart who ventured to Ulster when >> Shane married the cheiftain's daughter. They opposed Hugh O'Neil the Earl >> of Tyrone as they were kinsmen to the MacShanes (Shane O'Neill's sons) and >> had become powerful and influential people in Tir Eoghain, and eventually >> known as "McEllanes". The "census of the fews", a 1602 pardon list from >> Armagh gives the names of 2 kerns under Henry O'Neill: Owen Og McElane and >> Allen McElane. >> >> It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but >> then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: >> *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* >> obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to >> take it as coincidence or not. >> >> Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! >> >> Chris Beal >> * >> * >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Well this reminds me of someone I met just over 30 years ago! Many people visualize Irish women dressed in black and wearing a black shawl which many did, although this has pretty much died out. One day I was just walking in a fishing village just north of Dublin when I noticed an elderly woman dressed in this 'costume' who was calling me over to her gateway. I went over and asked was she OK? to which she asked if I could spare a few minutes to read a letter from her brother in America to her as she couldn't read. I went into the house to read the letter to her, we got talking and she told me she was originally from a fishing village in Mayo and over the 2 hours I was in her house she told me about all the various nationalities that used to frequent the western coast from France right down to Morocco and further south plus Mediterranean countries ..With tales of smuggling, fishing, marriages etc the time just flew by... even today this Mayo fishing village is quite remote yet it was an 'international hub' by all accounts and certainly was not a backwater! Oh if only I had written down half of what she told me!! This elderly lady was in her 90's at the time........ From:lmerle@comcast.net Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? To:scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <1416672830.458040.1327764228549.JavaMail.root@sz0165a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Amen!! All kinds of people lived in Ireland. Belfast was home of a small Welsh colony in the late 1500s. During the 1600s many Dutch and other continentals came to Belfast as merchants. It must be recalled that before the union of the crowns Scotland traded independently of England. It had a wide network of traders in Russia, throughout northern Europe, and among England's traditional enemies (France, Spain, Italy). Ireland also traded independently. Ports like Sligo were very busy with continental connections before finally the English put an end to that and destroyed the old trade routes. Once the western coast of Ireland was not a backwater. It was prosperous in the Middle Ages. It had towns full of lusty soldiers and merchants -- securing business through dynastic marriages to families in Spain, etc.

Hi, Linda. I think that you are right on the money with your comment " Elliott's "Catholics of Ulster" very interesting reading no matter who you think your ancestors were." Recently, I have been looking in more depth at the history of the Laggan region trying to understand how the turmoil of the 1610-1650 period affected the individual I suspect might have been my ancestor. He was mentioned in Pynnar's Survey as one of the early tenants of a Donegal Undertaker but did not show up in the muster roll in 1630 for that Undertaker. Pynnar's survey also noted that many of the tenants had not taken the oath. As I now understand it, if they did not take an oath that they would be loyal subjects of the English king and be Protestant (i.e. Church of Ireland) they would not be regarded by the conditions placed on Undertakers as acceptable tenants for Plantation purposes. However, a man with the same name did show up on a muster roll just a few miles away in Strabane in Co. Tyrone. The interesting thing is that, except for the Chief Undertaker there who was the Earl of Abercorn, many of the other Undertakers in the west Ardstraw area were noted as remaining Catholic. Both Pynnar's survey and the earlier one noted that these folks, several of whom were relatives of the Earl, were also not in compliance with the restriction on leasing land to the "mere Irish". Some of them even sided with the Irish in the later rebellions and for a time lost their land. So, I'm now convinced that the situation with respect to religion was not nearly as clear cut as I formerly believed, at least in the early period of the Plantation. John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: January-28-12 4:29 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down Hi John, another one is Jonathan Bardon's "Plantation of Ulster ". I have it on order but haven't read it yet. The Blurb says: "The Plantation of Ulster was the most ambitious scheme of colonisation ever attempted in modern Europe, and one of the largest European migrations of the period. It was a pivotal episode in Irish history, sending shock waves reverberating down the centuries. In this vivid account, the author punctures some generally held assumptions: despite slaughter and famine, the province was not completely depopulated as was often asserted at the time; the native Irish were not deliberately given the most infertile land; some of the most energetic planters were Catholic; and the Catholic Church there emerged stronger than before. Above all, natives and newcomers fused to a greater degree than is widely believed: apart from recent immigrants, nearly all Ulster people today have the blood of both Planter and Gael flowing in their veins. Nevertheless, memories of dispossession and massacre, etched into the folk memory, were to ignite explosive outbreaks of intercommunal conflict down to o! ur own time. The Plantation was also the beginning of a far greater exodus to North America. Subsequently, descendants of Ulster planters crossed the Atlantic in their tens of thousands to play a central role in shaping the United States of America." Another is "The Plantation of Ulster" by Philip Robinson. It focuses on the process of colonization. Somewhere there's another book I like, but I can't find it right now. Later in history ....I see on my bookshelf "Cromwellian Ireland" by T C Barnard and "The Williamite War in Ireland 1688-1691" by Richard Doherty. Bardon's "History of Ulster" is probably the best (certainly the thickest) general history of Ulster. I also found, for general history of Ulster and its inhabitants, Elliott's "Catholics of Ulster" very interesting reading no matter who you think your ancestors were. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Carey" <johnca@quickclic.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:23:07 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down It's not a scholarly book but you might check out http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David N. Young Sent: January-28-12 12:11 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] Plantation of Down Can anyone please recommend a good modern scholarly book about the plantation in [present] Co. Down [that Linda mentioned as being different than the others in the Irish N. East? Thanks ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found the price reasonable enough to purchase the double CD set from the Ulster-Scots Agency. It has both and I was surprised how quickly it made its way to Canada. John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of DougB81042@aol.com Sent: January-28-12 5:17 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 7, Issue 19--hamilton montgomery manuscripts In a message dated 1/28/2012 4:06:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com writes: > To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <000001ccdde9$e57d62e0$b07828a0$@quickclic.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's not a scholarly book but you might check out > http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ > > I found the Montgomery manuscripts free on google books but could not find the Hamilton manuscripts free. Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 1/28/2012 4:06:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com writes: > To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <000001ccdde9$e57d62e0$b07828a0$@quickclic.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's not a scholarly book but you might check out > http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ > > I found the Montgomery manuscripts free on google books but could not find the Hamilton manuscripts free. Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL

I think my new cousin’s family lived/lives in Randalstown, not Ballynacraigy. Linda A -----Original Message----- From: Linda A Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:36 AM To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] DNA Success I just want to share our success story. My surname is Haire. I have a Yahoo group for researchers of that name in any spelling. I also started a FTDNA group several years ago by buying the first kit for that name for my brother. A lady in Antrim Ireland with the maiden name Haire joined my Yahoo group a couple of months ago and I strongly suspected a connection to my family. We had her brother tested and we have a match! In fact the 25 marker test was only 1 off. The 37 marker test was 2 off which is exactly the same as when we tested my brother and a known second cousin in the US! Our family immigrated around 1788 so the connection is over 200 years back. Now of course I want to go to Ireland!! Some time ago I posted old letters that were sent to my immigrant family from the family in Ireland that stayed behind. They were from Ballynacraigy and Randalstown. The lady in Ireland that tested her brother still lives in Ballynagraigy! I’m so grateful for those letters because they hare full of family names. We now have to try to find the connection. Amazingly grandparents in both her family and ours in the US still had the same first names....John, William, James, Arthur etc. This should be fun! Linda A ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Amen!! All kinds of people lived in Ireland. Belfast was home of a small Welsh colony in the late 1500s. During the 1600s many Dutch and other continentals came to Belfast as merchants. It must be recalled that before the union of the crowns Scotland traded independently of England. It had a wide network of traders in Russia, throughout northern Europe, and among England's traditional enemies (France, Spain, Italy). Ireland also traded independently. Ports like Sligo were very busy with continental connections before finally the English put an end to that and destroyed the old trade routes. Once the western coast of Ireland was not a backwater. It was prosperous in the Middle Ages. It had towns full of lusty soldiers and merchants -- securing business through dynastic marriages to families in Spain, etc. Your ancestors were not all either Scots or Irish. They were as diverse as Americans or Australians. Or Romans. Or the Welsh. You can still see the results of Roman slavery in the DNA of Wales. Ireland in the 1600s was a place to go to, like America, only closer and so easier and cheaper to reach. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:41:29 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? Why can't they just be Scots living in Ireland? Surely there were people of different nationalities living in Ireland prior to the organized plantations! On 28/01/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Native Irish McLains? (Christopher Beal) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:31:10 -0500 > From: Christopher Beal<crbeal@gmail.com> > Subject: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAEesOZPOh1wB_P3n6XxHvZdPC1ooJN-t5X9Kbw24aq69HgFRGQ@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been > able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700. For a long time I > thought they were planters from Scotland but after exchanging emails with > Linda Merle, it seems they could have been native Irish. I did a little > more research and I'll add my findings. I was lucky enough to find the > family of brothers in 1660s parish records at St. Columb's in Londonderry > baptizing their children, these same men also appear on Tyrone's hearth > rolls in 1663 around Dungannnon (John McOlane, Andrew McClean, John > Mickline, Neall McLeane, and Patrick McGlaine). Londonderry's records > seems to add 2 more brothers/cousins: Archibald and William. > > Comparing the hearth rolls with the 1740 householders index, these exact > names repeat very much in Loughinsholin and the descendants of these > McLains seem to populate Magherafelt, Tamlaght O'Crilly, Kilrea, > Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan, Maghera, and Kellelagh through that period of > time. The only records I found earlier than these are the following: > > 1630 muster roll: John McClane, on Henry Conway's estate in Loughinsholin, > Londonderry > Summonisters roll: "Gilbert McCleene of Clogher" mentioned in Tyrone's > rolls in 1626. > > Would I be correct in assuming that John McClane is an Irish tenant on > the Londonderry plantation? Through all the turmoil of the 1600s, it seems > this family stays in Loughinsholin. I've read that Shane O'Neill's > gallowglass in 1560 were the Macleans of Duart who ventured to Ulster when > Shane married the cheiftain's daughter. They opposed Hugh O'Neil the Earl > of Tyrone as they were kinsmen to the MacShanes (Shane O'Neill's sons) and > had become powerful and influential people in Tir Eoghain, and eventually > known as "McEllanes". The "census of the fews", a 1602 pardon list from > Armagh gives the names of 2 kerns under Henry O'Neill: Owen Og McElane and > Allen McElane. > > It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but > then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: > *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* > obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to > take it as coincidence or not. > > Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! > > Chris Beal > * > * > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SCOTCH-IRISH list administrator, send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the SCOTCH-IRISH mailing list, send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 7, Issue 17 > ******************************************* > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Christopher, Probably if these men were on a muster roll in the early 1600s they were not believed to be Irish by their landlords. If you read up on the Plantation (start with Hanna "The Scotch Irish"), you will encounter the conditions undertakers had to meet. They included that the undertaker settle a certain number of British on the estate and be able to put men in the field to defend it with arms. They were also required to evict the Irish. They had to be Protestant and their tenants were supposed to be as well. They were required to build an English style house (a bawn). etc. etc. I'm recalling from memory here, so I could be wrong on the details in some small ways so do your own research. You get what you pay for and this is free. Two key points to recall here: 1: they were supposed to evict the Irish. Key point 2: no one ever follows the law exactly. Not now and not then. Some didn't fulfill the conditions and some did. Some Scots undertakers were Catholic and seeded their estates with Scots Catholic tenants. Some did nothing. Most didn't evict their Irish tenants or at least not all of them. Why? Because they needed them. They needed them to run the estate and to bring in the harvest. No harvest meant famine. Oddly enough, Brits die from lack of food as fast as Irish, so they tried to avoid famine. In many locations eating required the labor of Irish people. This is a generality and it is generally true. The further east you were in Ulster, the more Scots and the less dependency on Irish. This is also a generality. It's important to also recall that Antrim and Down were NOT SETTLED UNDER THESE LAWS. That's right. They were private plantations -- already 'done' by the time the Earls sailed off. So the rules don't apply. The Antrim estate of the McDonalds comprised highland (Catholic) Scots of various degrees of assimilation into Ireland. Ie the McDonalds had been there from the mid 1500s. Several generations may have lived there for generations. Some were newer. Randal McD. was required to settle lowland Protestant farmers amongst his highlanders and so he did. Most of the Irish who were there in 1550 were there in 1700 and later. Some were displaced, all were 'downsized'. Down I have less info about. As usual the Irish were pushed onto bad farming land -- highlands and bog. They were there today if you drive around the Mts. of Mourne. On the McDonald estate the problem in 1630 would be figuring out who was Irish and who was not. The highlanders spoke Gaelic and were Catholic like the Irish. Frankly, loyality to the McDonalds were probably far more important than who your father was. Of course people assimilated, one way or another. Moving west to your area, the further west you go in Ulster, at any time, the fewer settlers and the more Irish you had. The higher you go the same is true because even Scots farmers can't grow much on rocks. Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against the British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or not, and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The upper classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates and so had a lot to lose in an uprising. So you'll have to research the specifics of Loughinsholin at that time to determine what estate he lived in and how well off he was and what happened there during the settling of the Plantation and later on in 1641 and 2. Are there names on the Muster lists of 1642, for example? Those are filmed and the FHL. In this case the men were mustered to fight off a rebellion. So if they're on them, most likely they were trusted (unless they were spies or defected after mustering -- this occurred). It's important to understand that ethnicity is learned. Most of us have the ability to learn. Ethnicity in the early 1600s in Ulster was very fluid. There were many ethnicities. Now we look back and ask: PRotestant or Catholic? Irish or Scots? Not like that then. If you doubt me read a few history books. Bardon in his long history of Ulster details various stories of ethnic confusion in 1642 and later -- as when apparently some tenants of the McDonalds were slaughtered by Monroe. Why? they spoke Gaelic. McDonald was not out in rebellion. Unfortunately Monroe's army was Campbell -- the old enemy from Scotland. They were probably slaughtered for being McDonalds. Even Scots politics was involved. What I am saying is additional research is required if you want to approach the truth. Due to the paucity of records, you may never know if he was a gallowglass (and by 1630 assimilated into the Irish nation) or a Scots newcomer. Don't much matter. If your ancestors were in Ulster that long and if you could trace them and all their wives' ancestors, you would find every kind of person in Ulster. Many many more Irish gals than Irish lads in Ulster after the defeat of the O'Neills. Lots of British soldiers and settlers with no one to love. One thing to do is continue to collect DNA matches. You should find (eventually) some matches in your area of Ireland, but you should be able also to ID Scots 'near matches' or even matches. If those are in the western Isles and western Scotland, you can assume they were either gallowglass or McDonalds. If Dumfries, lowlanders. Unfortunately some lowland clans did migrate to the lowlands, making it more difficult. If only God had pasted them all in place!! In any case the history of the area should be of interest to you because most likely, who ever was suffering was somehow related to you as was their oppressor. Determining exactly where they were living also helps. Some townlands were full of Irish. In the early days Irish were not allowed to live in the towns (for the same reason no one wanted Apaches inside the fort). If they lived on a townland that was part of a church estate, that was full of Irish surnames, most likely Irish. The church was not required to evict Irish, so it provided shelter (such as it was) to many. It's not hard to spot one of these in the estate records. Some of the churchlands were leased for very long periods (hundred years, etc), so it can be confusing determining the history of a townland. Since people did need to get the harvest in to avoid starving, the lessee, in one case I researched, and I suspect, most cases, were happy to have additional tenants. What I can tell you about Dungannon and surrounds is that is mountainous land and there were always lots of Irish there. It was difficult to attract Scots or English (much was an English plantation). However many very Scots towns grew up and many have detailed histories. In one case (Magherafelt?) a history detailed everyone living in it, but no Irish. Blocks of Irish were just indicated "Irish". Very distressing if you wanted to know which Irish! The FHL has a huge collection of town, congregational, and parish histories. Maybe someone has some additional insights? Hope this helps, Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Beal" <crbeal@gmail.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:31:10 AM Subject: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700. For a long time I thought they were planters from Scotland but after exchanging emails with Linda Merle, it seems they could have been native Irish. I did a little more research and I'll add my findings. I was lucky enough to find the family of brothers in 1660s parish records at St. Columb's in Londonderry baptizing their children, these same men also appear on Tyrone's hearth rolls in 1663 around Dungannnon (John McOlane, Andrew McClean, John Mickline, Neall McLeane, and Patrick McGlaine). Londonderry's records seems to add 2 more brothers/cousins: Archibald and William. Comparing the hearth rolls with the 1740 householders index, these exact names repeat very much in Loughinsholin and the descendants of these McLains seem to populate Magherafelt, Tamlaght O'Crilly, Kilrea, Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan, Maghera, and Kellelagh through that period of time. The only records I found earlier than these are the following: 1630 muster roll: John McClane, on Henry Conway's estate in Loughinsholin, Londonderry Summonisters roll: "Gilbert McCleene of Clogher" mentioned in Tyrone's rolls in 1626. Would I be correct in assuming that John McClane is an Irish tenant on the Londonderry plantation? Through all the turmoil of the 1600s, it seems this family stays in Loughinsholin. I've read that Shane O'Neill's gallowglass in 1560 were the Macleans of Duart who ventured to Ulster when Shane married the cheiftain's daughter. They opposed Hugh O'Neil the Earl of Tyrone as they were kinsmen to the MacShanes (Shane O'Neill's sons) and had become powerful and influential people in Tir Eoghain, and eventually known as "McEllanes". The "census of the fews", a 1602 pardon list from Armagh gives the names of 2 kerns under Henry O'Neill: Owen Og McElane and Allen McElane. It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to take it as coincidence or not. Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! Chris Beal * * ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It's not a scholarly book but you might check out http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David N. Young Sent: January-28-12 12:11 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] Plantation of Down Can anyone please recommend a good modern scholarly book about the plantation in [present] Co. Down [that Linda mentioned as being different than the others in the Irish N. East? Thanks ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I just want to share our success story. My surname is Haire. I have a Yahoo group for researchers of that name in any spelling. I also started a FTDNA group several years ago by buying the first kit for that name for my brother. A lady in Antrim Ireland with the maiden name Haire joined my Yahoo group a couple of months ago and I strongly suspected a connection to my family. We had her brother tested and we have a match! In fact the 25 marker test was only 1 off. The 37 marker test was 2 off which is exactly the same as when we tested my brother and a known second cousin in the US! Our family immigrated around 1788 so the connection is over 200 years back. Now of course I want to go to Ireland!! Some time ago I posted old letters that were sent to my immigrant family from the family in Ireland that stayed behind. They were from Ballynacraigy and Randalstown. The lady in Ireland that tested her brother still lives in Ballynagraigy! I’m so grateful for those letters because they hare full of family names. We now have to try to find the connection. Amazingly grandparents in both her family and ours in the US still had the same first names....John, William, James, Arthur etc. This should be fun! Linda A

Thanks everyone for your insight! The John McClane in 1630 was on the vintners proportion of land near Bellaghy. There does seem to be a small proportion of Scots (Gillaspick, Campbell, McHale, McGildress and Stuart) appearing on the muster list as well. I recently got the Ulster army lists and all of the McLains I found were mustered in Antrim/Down/Donegal (8 of them named John) except for one, and there were also plenty of Irish surnames in these regiments also so I learned this time period wasn't as "black and white" as history has made it out to be. One name sticks out as a possiblity: a Thomas Maklane in the Londonderry garrison mustered in 1643. In the Dumfries parish registers, Gilbert has sons "Andro", "Elisoune", "Cristian", and "Thomas" being the last baptism in 1610 before the family disappears from that area. The Andrew McLane of Tullinisken (Tyrone) parish names a son John in 1667 St. Columb's I definitely need to learn more about Loughinsholin in the 1630s, most of what I read sounds like what was spoken by Bagenal :* “then the most inaccessible corner of mountains, woods and bogs in Ulster, formed the main O’Neill stronghold for cattle and other possessions in time of danger, and an ultimate refuge for Ulster rebels."* Also stated referencing the 1641 rebellion I found *"after the rebellion, there were not as much as eight people in Loughinsholin for years afterward"* which I figured meant settlers. I'm currently reading Leyburn's "The Scotch-Irish: A social history" which is incredibly infomative and he tells about the natives always willing to pay the higher rent rather than give up their attachment to their ancestral homeland. This brings to mind the McLains in the Loughinsholin area from the 1620s to the late 18th century, but it could just be these are the leases they could afford and the land they became attached to. I've put together a phylogenic tree of my dna matches and it seems our lines all cross circa 1600-1650 in Ulster as they are part of the later diaspora to America and all their surnames are spelled McLaine/McClaine/McLain On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:12 AM, <lmerle@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > Probably if these men were on a muster roll in the early 1600s they were > not believed to be Irish by their landlords. If you read up on the > Plantation (start with Hanna "The Scotch Irish"), you will encounter the > conditions undertakers had to meet. They included that the undertaker > settle a certain number of British on the estate and be able to put men in > the field to defend it with arms. They were also required to evict the > Irish. They had to be Protestant and their tenants were supposed to be as > well. They were required to build an English style house (a bawn). etc. etc. > > I'm recalling from memory here, so I could be wrong on the details in some > small ways so do your own research. You get what you pay for and this is > free. > > Two key points to recall here: 1: they were supposed to evict the Irish. > Key point 2: no one ever follows the law exactly. Not now and not then. > Some didn't fulfill the conditions and some did. > > Some Scots undertakers were Catholic and seeded their estates with Scots > Catholic tenants. Some did nothing. Most didn't evict their Irish tenants > or at least not all of them. Why? Because they needed them. They needed > them to run the estate and to bring in the harvest. No harvest meant > famine. Oddly enough, Brits die from lack of food as fast as Irish, so they > tried to avoid famine. In many locations eating required the labor of Irish > people. > > This is a generality and it is generally true. The further east you were > in Ulster, the more Scots and the less dependency on Irish. This is also a > generality. It's important to also recall that Antrim and Down were NOT > SETTLED UNDER THESE LAWS. That's right. They were private plantations -- > already 'done' by the time the Earls sailed off. So the rules don't apply. > > The Antrim estate of the McDonalds comprised highland (Catholic) Scots of > various degrees of assimilation into Ireland. Ie the McDonalds had been > there from the mid 1500s. Several generations may have lived there for > generations. Some were newer. Randal McD. was required to settle lowland > Protestant farmers amongst his highlanders and so he did. Most of the Irish > who were there in 1550 were there in 1700 and later. Some were displaced, > all were 'downsized'. Down I have less info about. As usual the Irish were > pushed onto bad farming land -- highlands and bog. They were there today if > you drive around the Mts. of Mourne. > > On the McDonald estate the problem in 1630 would be figuring out who was > Irish and who was not. The highlanders spoke Gaelic and were Catholic like > the Irish. Frankly, loyality to the McDonalds were probably far more > important than who your father was. Of course people assimilated, one way > or another. > > Moving west to your area, the further west you go in Ulster, at any time, > the fewer settlers and the more Irish you had. The higher you go the same > is true because even Scots farmers can't grow much on rocks. > > Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't > much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against the > British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or not, > and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is > not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The upper > classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates and > so had a lot to lose in an uprising. > > So you'll have to research the specifics of Loughinsholin at that time to > determine what estate he lived in and how well off he was and what happened > there during the settling of the Plantation and later on in 1641 and 2. Are > there names on the Muster lists of 1642, for example? Those are filmed and > the FHL. In this case the men were mustered to fight off a rebellion. So if > they're on them, most likely they were trusted (unless they were spies or > defected after mustering -- this occurred). > > It's important to understand that ethnicity is learned. Most of us have > the ability to learn. Ethnicity in the early 1600s in Ulster was very > fluid. There were many ethnicities. Now we look back and ask: PRotestant or > Catholic? Irish or Scots? Not like that then. If you doubt me read a few > history books. Bardon in his long history of Ulster details various stories > of ethnic confusion in 1642 and later -- as when apparently some tenants of > the McDonalds were slaughtered by Monroe. Why? they spoke Gaelic. McDonald > was not out in rebellion. Unfortunately Monroe's army was Campbell -- the > old enemy from Scotland. They were probably slaughtered for being > McDonalds. Even Scots politics was involved. > > What I am saying is additional research is required if you want to > approach the truth. Due to the paucity of records, you may never know if he > was a gallowglass (and by 1630 assimilated into the Irish nation) or a > Scots newcomer. Don't much matter. If your ancestors were in Ulster that > long and if you could trace them and all their wives' ancestors, you would > find every kind of person in Ulster. Many many more Irish gals than Irish > lads in Ulster after the defeat of the O'Neills. Lots of British soldiers > and settlers with no one to love. > > One thing to do is continue to collect DNA matches. You should find > (eventually) some matches in your area of Ireland, but you should be able > also to ID Scots 'near matches' or even matches. If those are in the > western Isles and western Scotland, you can assume they were either > gallowglass or McDonalds. If Dumfries, lowlanders. Unfortunately some > lowland clans did migrate to the lowlands, making it more difficult. If > only God had pasted them all in place!! > > In any case the history of the area should be of interest to you because > most likely, who ever was suffering was somehow related to you as was their > oppressor. > > Determining exactly where they were living also helps. Some townlands were > full of Irish. In the early days Irish were not allowed to live in the > towns (for the same reason no one wanted Apaches inside the fort). If they > lived on a townland that was part of a church estate, that was full of > Irish surnames, most likely Irish. The church was not required to evict > Irish, so it provided shelter (such as it was) to many. It's not hard to > spot one of these in the estate records. Some of the churchlands were > leased for very long periods (hundred years, etc), so it can be confusing > determining the history of a townland. Since people did need to get the > harvest in to avoid starving, the lessee, in one case I researched, and I > suspect, most cases, were happy to have additional tenants. > > What I can tell you about Dungannon and surrounds is that is mountainous > land and there were always lots of Irish there. It was difficult to attract > Scots or English (much was an English plantation). However many very Scots > towns grew up and many have detailed histories. In one case (Magherafelt?) > a history detailed everyone living in it, but no Irish. Blocks of Irish > were just indicated "Irish". Very distressing if you wanted to know which > Irish! The FHL has a huge collection of town, congregational, and parish > histories. > > Maybe someone has some additional insights? > > Hope this helps, > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Beal" <crbeal@gmail.com> > To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:31:10 AM > Subject: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > > With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been > able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700. For a long time I > thought they were planters from Scotland but after exchanging emails with > Linda Merle, it seems they could have been native Irish. I did a little > more research and I'll add my findings. I was lucky enough to find the > family of brothers in 1660s parish records at St. Columb's in Londonderry > baptizing their children, these same men also appear on Tyrone's hearth > rolls in 1663 around Dungannnon (John McOlane, Andrew McClean, John > Mickline, Neall McLeane, and Patrick McGlaine). Londonderry's records > seems to add 2 more brothers/cousins: Archibald and William. > > Comparing the hearth rolls with the 1740 householders index, these exact > names repeat very much in Loughinsholin and the descendants of these > McLains seem to populate Magherafelt, Tamlaght O'Crilly, Kilrea, > Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan, Maghera, and Kellelagh through that period of > time. The only records I found earlier than these are the following: > > 1630 muster roll: John McClane, on Henry Conway's estate in Loughinsholin, > Londonderry > Summonisters roll: "Gilbert McCleene of Clogher" mentioned in Tyrone's > rolls in 1626. > > Would I be correct in assuming that John McClane is an Irish tenant on > the Londonderry plantation? Through all the turmoil of the 1600s, it seems > this family stays in Loughinsholin. I've read that Shane O'Neill's > gallowglass in 1560 were the Macleans of Duart who ventured to Ulster when > Shane married the cheiftain's daughter. They opposed Hugh O'Neil the Earl > of Tyrone as they were kinsmen to the MacShanes (Shane O'Neill's sons) and > had become powerful and influential people in Tir Eoghain, and eventually > known as "McEllanes". The "census of the fews", a 1602 pardon list from > Armagh gives the names of 2 kerns under Henry O'Neill: Owen Og McElane and > Allen McElane. > > It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but > then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: > *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* > obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to > take it as coincidence or not. > > Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! > > Chris Beal > * > * > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *________________________________________ * "If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger." - General George Washington, 1778 * *

Why can't they just be Scots living in Ireland? Surely there were people of different nationalities living in Ireland prior to the organized plantations! On 28/01/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Native Irish McLains? (Christopher Beal) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:31:10 -0500 > From: Christopher Beal<crbeal@gmail.com> > Subject: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAEesOZPOh1wB_P3n6XxHvZdPC1ooJN-t5X9Kbw24aq69HgFRGQ@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been > able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700. For a long time I > thought they were planters from Scotland but after exchanging emails with > Linda Merle, it seems they could have been native Irish. I did a little > more research and I'll add my findings. I was lucky enough to find the > family of brothers in 1660s parish records at St. Columb's in Londonderry > baptizing their children, these same men also appear on Tyrone's hearth > rolls in 1663 around Dungannnon (John McOlane, Andrew McClean, John > Mickline, Neall McLeane, and Patrick McGlaine). Londonderry's records > seems to add 2 more brothers/cousins: Archibald and William. > > Comparing the hearth rolls with the 1740 householders index, these exact > names repeat very much in Loughinsholin and the descendants of these > McLains seem to populate Magherafelt, Tamlaght O'Crilly, Kilrea, > Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan, Maghera, and Kellelagh through that period of > time. The only records I found earlier than these are the following: > > 1630 muster roll: John McClane, on Henry Conway's estate in Loughinsholin, > Londonderry > Summonisters roll: "Gilbert McCleene of Clogher" mentioned in Tyrone's > rolls in 1626. > > Would I be correct in assuming that John McClane is an Irish tenant on > the Londonderry plantation? Through all the turmoil of the 1600s, it seems > this family stays in Loughinsholin. I've read that Shane O'Neill's > gallowglass in 1560 were the Macleans of Duart who ventured to Ulster when > Shane married the cheiftain's daughter. They opposed Hugh O'Neil the Earl > of Tyrone as they were kinsmen to the MacShanes (Shane O'Neill's sons) and > had become powerful and influential people in Tir Eoghain, and eventually > known as "McEllanes". The "census of the fews", a 1602 pardon list from > Armagh gives the names of 2 kerns under Henry O'Neill: Owen Og McElane and > Allen McElane. > > It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but > then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: > *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* > obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to > take it as coincidence or not. > > Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! > > Chris Beal > * > * > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SCOTCH-IRISH list administrator, send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the SCOTCH-IRISH mailing list, send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 7, Issue 17 > ******************************************* >

Can anyone please recommend a good modern scholarly book about the plantation in [present] Co. Down [that Linda mentioned as being different than the others in the Irish N. East? Thanks

Some of these are pertinent to this list: : I have started transcribing and posting some of the newsclippings relating to Creggan Parish which I photographed when I was in Ireland last fall - thanks to the generosity of Kieran McConville. Through the act of annotating them, I am learning so much more about the various players. It becomes a way to find the news behind the news, as it were. Today, I posted five more news items: 1842 February 3 <http://www.thesilverbowl.com/documents/newsclippings/1842Feb3-PresbyterianMarriages.html> This news clipping details decisions made at a meeting in Newtownhamilton in response to a decision by Irish judges to invalidate marriages between Presbyterians and Episcopalians when they are performed by Presbyterian Ministers.A dozen of those involved are named. 1846 March 7 <http://www.thesilverbowl.com/documents/newsclippings/1846Mar7--ObitBALL.html> Obit for Samuel BALL, son of Captain BALL 1833 February 5 <http://www.thesilverbowl.com/documents/newsclippings/1833Feb5-CLEWLOW.html> Rent reduction. Mrs. CLEWLOW had family ties to the DONALDSONs of Freeduff, so it is not surprising that she was well acquainted with the issues of tenant rights, and also seems sympathetic to the needs of her tenants. These DONALDSONs were key figures in the 1798 uprising, and thereafter. January 27, 2012 1829 April 28 <http://www.thesilverbowl.com/documents/newsclippings/1829Apr28-BALL-JACKSON.html> A lease for Urker Lodge - John BALL. 1781 March 2 <http://www.thesilverbowl.com/documents/newsclippings/1781Mar2-OLIVER.html> There is still more work to do when it comes to definitively proving which Andrew OLIVER, a distiller in Newtownhamilton this one was. As I learn more, I will update the footnotes. Another way to access them is to go to the NEW link on my home page. As always, I appreciate being alerted to my errors, so I can have the opportunity to fix them. Enjoy, Sharon Oddie Brown. -- Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: www.thesilverbowl.com

The given name Gilbert was very popular in the Carrick district of Ayrshire although it may come from the Gaelic Gille-brigte. When it shows in 17th century Ulster it is usually a sign of a planter from SW Scotland in my view. However I would be very interested if anyone has any counter-evidence ie Ulster records from before 1600 using this given name. Joe ________________________________ From: Christopher Beal <crbeal@gmail.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 5:31 AM Subject: [S-I] Native Irish McLains?     With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700.   <snip>   It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to take it as coincidence or not. Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! Chris Beal * * ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700. For a long time I thought they were planters from Scotland but after exchanging emails with Linda Merle, it seems they could have been native Irish. I did a little more research and I'll add my findings. I was lucky enough to find the family of brothers in 1660s parish records at St. Columb's in Londonderry baptizing their children, these same men also appear on Tyrone's hearth rolls in 1663 around Dungannnon (John McOlane, Andrew McClean, John Mickline, Neall McLeane, and Patrick McGlaine). Londonderry's records seems to add 2 more brothers/cousins: Archibald and William. Comparing the hearth rolls with the 1740 householders index, these exact names repeat very much in Loughinsholin and the descendants of these McLains seem to populate Magherafelt, Tamlaght O'Crilly, Kilrea, Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan, Maghera, and Kellelagh through that period of time. The only records I found earlier than these are the following: 1630 muster roll: John McClane, on Henry Conway's estate in Loughinsholin, Londonderry Summonisters roll: "Gilbert McCleene of Clogher" mentioned in Tyrone's rolls in 1626. Would I be correct in assuming that John McClane is an Irish tenant on the Londonderry plantation? Through all the turmoil of the 1600s, it seems this family stays in Loughinsholin. I've read that Shane O'Neill's gallowglass in 1560 were the Macleans of Duart who ventured to Ulster when Shane married the cheiftain's daughter. They opposed Hugh O'Neil the Earl of Tyrone as they were kinsmen to the MacShanes (Shane O'Neill's sons) and had become powerful and influential people in Tir Eoghain, and eventually known as "McEllanes". The "census of the fews", a 1602 pardon list from Armagh gives the names of 2 kerns under Henry O'Neill: Owen Og McElane and Allen McElane. It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to take it as coincidence or not. Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! Chris Beal * *

Hi folks, you can sub to the free enews letter published by the National Genealogical Society (USA) to keep abreast of what's happening. They announced this today: http://upfront.ngsgenealogy.org/ Permanent link here: http://upfront.ngsgenealogy.org/2012/01/ulster-history-genealogy-summer-school.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UpfrontWithNgs+%28UpFront+with+NGS%29 Linda Merle

Dear Members and Friends: The Ulster American Society is focusing most of its attention this year on organizing and leading a trade mission to Northern Ireland in September. So far, eighteen state legislators from fourteen states and nine of their guests have registered to go. If you may be interested to learn more about this exciting initiative, please let me know. Thank you and regards, *Drew McGinty* /President/ Ulster American Society, Inc. drew.mcginty@ulsteramerican.org <mailto:drew.mcginty@ulsteramerican.org> +1 215-650-7880 No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4762 - Release Date: 01/23/12