Document ID 9307016 Date 19-03-1758 Document Type Letters (Other) Archive Public Record Office, Northern Ireland Citation David Lindsey, Tyrone, to Thomas or Andrew Fleming, Pennsylvania.; PRONI D3561/; CMSIED 9307016 Papers of Prof. E.R.R. Green (Copies of emigrant letters collected by and sent to E.R.R. Green as part of his research project on emigration) Deposited by Dr. P.R. Green Letter dated "March ye 19th, 1758". From David Lindsey of County Tyrone, Northern Ireland to Thomas *Fleming* or Andrew *Fleming*, Pennslyvania. March ye 19th, 1758 Dr.[Dear?] Cusen [Cousin?] I had upertunity [opportunity?] of reading your letter that was sent to your father-in-law, which gave me great satisfaction to here [hear?] you were all in goodhealth and fortuned so well as to be possessed in so good a bargain of lands. We are all in good health. I bless God for all his mercies, and yr. [your?] uncle David is helthy[healthy?] and harty [hearty?], and all do join in our love and compliments to you and your families and enquiring friends. I expected account oftener from you, only times being troublesome in that country with wars that we were assured that you were all ded [dead?] or killed. The good bargains of your lands in that country doe [do?] greatly encourage me to pluck up my spirits and make Redie [ready?] for the Journey, for we are now oppressed with our lands at 8s per acre and other improvements, cutting our land in two-acre parts, and Quicking, and only two years' time for doing it all [--?] ye, we cannot stand more. I expected a letter from you more oftener, or that cusen [cousin?] Wm. [William?] *Fleming* would come over before this time; but these things does not Discourage me to goe [go?], only we depend on ye [you?] for Derections [directions?] in the goods fitting to take to that place. I had disappointment of 20s worth of Lining [linen?] clothye [cloth?] I sold, and had James Hoskins' bond for the money. The merchant ran away, and I had great truble [trouble?] in getting my money, so that was deleavered[delivered?]. Brother John *Fleming* is dead, and brother James Lindsey is married again to one Hoskins, and his son Robert has service to his uncle, James Martin, and desires to know if he will redeem him if he goes over there. He is a good favour and is willing to work for his passage till it's paid. #PAGE 2 Your Cusen [cousin?] in Desert master [martin?] is all in health. Cusen [cousin?] Mary to let you know that all my father's family is in helth [health?] and joins in ye love to ye. My father is very far spent, and I expect to see him buried before I leave the place. Your father and my uncle Andrew is but tender in helth [health?]. Sarah Rickets desires to be remembered in her love to her sister Nelly and other friends. Our living is dear in this place. I conclude with my love to you and all friends there. I am yours till death. David Lindsey.

Thank you for the nice note David. It was very interesting. Can you pinpoint a date when it might hae been written? Did David Lindsey come over to the USA later.? He sound like he surely wanted too.......Where did this family live in NI and over here if you know that? Thank yo again, Sarah.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: <SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American letter etc... > Document ID 9307016 > Date 19-03-1758 > Document Type Letters (Other) > Archive Public Record Office, Northern Ireland > Citation David Lindsey, Tyrone, to Thomas or Andrew Fleming, > Pennsylvania.; PRONI D3561/; CMSIED 9307016 > > Papers of Prof. E.R.R. Green (Copies of emigrant letters collected by and > sent to E.R.R. Green as part of his research project on emigration) > Deposited by Dr. P.R. Green > > Letter dated "March ye 19th, 1758". From David Lindsey of County Tyrone, > Northern Ireland to Thomas *Fleming* or Andrew *Fleming*, Pennslyvania. > March > ye 19th, 1758 > > Dr.[Dear?] Cusen [Cousin?] I had upertunity [opportunity?] of reading your > letter that was sent to your father-in-law, which gave me great > satisfaction to here [hear?] you were all in goodhealth and fortuned so > well as to be possessed in so good a bargain of lands. We are all in good > health. I bless God for all his mercies, and yr. [your?] uncle David is > helthy[healthy?] and harty [hearty?], and all do join in our love and > compliments to you and your families and enquiring friends. I expected > account oftener from you, only times being troublesome in that country > with > wars that we were assured that you were all ded [dead?] or killed. The > good bargains of your lands in that country doe [do?] greatly encourage me > to > pluck up my spirits and make Redie [ready?] for the Journey, for we are > now oppressed with our lands at 8s per acre and other improvements, > cutting > our land in two-acre parts, and Quicking, and only two years' time for > doing it all [--?] ye, we cannot stand more. I expected a letter from you > more > oftener, or that cusen [cousin?] Wm. [William?] *Fleming* would come over > before this time; but these things does not Discourage me to goe [go?], > only > we depend on ye [you?] for Derections [directions?] in the goods fitting > to take to that place. I had disappointment of 20s worth of Lining > [linen?] > clothye [cloth?] I sold, and had James Hoskins' bond for the money. The > merchant ran away, and I had great truble [trouble?] in getting my money, > so > that was deleavered[delivered?]. Brother John *Fleming* is dead, and > brother James Lindsey is married again to one Hoskins, and his son Robert > has > service to his uncle, James Martin, and desires to know if he will redeem > him if he goes over there. He is a good favour and is willing to work for > his passage till it's paid. > > #PAGE 2 > Your Cusen [cousin?] in Desert master [martin?] is all in health. Cusen > [cousin?] Mary to let you know that all my father's family is in helth > [health?] and joins in ye love > to ye. My father is very far spent, and I expect to see him buried before > I leave the place. Your father and my uncle Andrew is but tender in helth > [health?]. Sarah Rickets > desires to be remembered in her love to her sister Nelly and other > friends. Our living is dear in this place. > I conclude with my love to you and all friends there. I am yours till > death. > > David Lindsey. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4779 - Release Date: 02/01/12 >

What phrase are you looking for?? Irish economic and social history, Volumes 22-23 has the phrase "From the 1720s, the fertile parishes of east Donegal, on the west bank of the Foyle river, were /a major source of Presbyterian emigration/ which /continued/ and perhaps accelerated after the American Revolution. *..." * DH Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter Hi Linda, Is this in Emigrants and Exiles? Do have the page reference or even the exact phrase? I have the book and have searched it several times but can't find this quote. I even tried using Google books to search it then reading the paper pages for the ones Google isn't displaying and still no luck.

HI, I would be very interested in buying a copy of this book if it included any of my ancestors names - I know they went somewhere ??? >From Ulster the surname of interest would be FEE, and from the West of Ireland/Galway I am looking for the ROCHE surname. REGARDS, SEAN > From: rglindsay@comcast.net > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:26:31 -0700 > Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter > > Hello List: > > Page three of "IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN" refers to a David > Lindsey and a letter he wrote from County Tyrone in 1758 to his Fleming > cousins in Pennsylvania (really New Jersey). Accumulated evidence suggests > that this man is my gggGrandfather David Lindsay. > > Because I (after much looking) was unable to initiate a new thread, I'm > adding this post in reply form. If this County Tyrone David Lindsey (or you > may be a descendent of Malcolm Fleming) is perhaps of interest to you, let > me know as I have 'stuff' to share! > > Linda, the "Start a new thread" instructions are: To post a new message on > any board, click on the "Begin New Thread" link in the upper portion of the > screen. This can be done at the home page of any board or when viewing a > specific message on a board. > > I simply could not follow these instructions . . . send help! > > Bob Lindsay > > Email Checked by Norton > > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Hugh Nevin > Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:24 AM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter > > Hello Tom, > > The book is IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN: LETTERS AND MEMOIRS > FROM COLONIAL AND REVOLUTIONARY AMERICA, 1675-1815. It is written and > edited by Kerby A. Miller, Arnold Schrier, Bruce D. Boling, and David N. > Doyle. Oxford University Press published it in 2003. > > Perhaps the best brief description of the book is in this Preface paragraph: > "Each of the book's chapters focuses on one or more specific immigrants and > on the documents they wrote or dictated. Thus, the chapters constitute a > series of historical essays, each can stand alone, but together they > represent at once the disparate character, the common themes, and the > mosaiclike texture of early Irish migration." > > I did not find Spier/Speer in the Index. > > Regards, > > Hugh > > On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Tom Speer wrote: > > > Hugh, > > I am trying to trace the origin of a gggrandfather William Speer whose > > tombstone in Donegal gives his date of birth as 1781and age 84 years. He > > was a presbyterian who lived at Ballyboencuragh on the Ramelton road from > > Letterkenny. An 1847 survey of the then Manor Grove Estate shows a William > > Spier Sen. (and a William Spier Jun.) as tenants of part of > Ballyboencuragh. > > I should appreciate details of the book to which you refer as it seems > > relevant. Thank you and kind regards. > > Tom Speer > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Hugh Nevin" <hnevin@nycap.rr.com> > > To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 3:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter > > > > > >> Joe and Linda, > >> > >> I happened to be online as Linda's reply came in. I've just looked > >> quickly at the County Donegal listings in the Index of Irish Immigrants. > >> I didn't see the specific phrase. Of the two references that caught my > >> eye, the following (p. 107) seems a possible reference: "By at least the > >> 1720s the fertile parishes of east Donegal,...were a major source of > >> Presbyterian emigration that continued and perhaps accelerated after the > >> American Revolution." > >> > >> Hugh Nevin > >> > >> On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:07 AM, lmerle@comcast.net wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Joe, actually it is from that book. I am busy and cannot promise you > >>> that I will find the time to research this for you. Perhaps try again. > >>> Google books is not likely to be useful for searching a book that is in > >>> copyright. The traditional way -- reading the book -- or using the index > >>> may help and if I get some time, I will try the index. > >>> > >>> Linda Merle > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Joe Flock" <joe.flock@yahoo.com> > >>> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > >>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:04:17 AM > >>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter > >>> > >>> Hi Linda, > >>> > >>> Is this in Emigrants and Exiles? Do have the page reference or even the > >>> exact phrase? I have the book and have searched it several times but > >>> can't find this quote. I even tried using Google books to search it then > >>> reading the paper pages for the ones Google isn't displaying and still > no > >>> luck. > >>> > >>> > >>> Joseph Flock III > >>> > >>> Linda wrote: > >>> > >>> Besides all that, Kirby Miller says in his book on Irish emigration that > >>> Donegal lost much of its population long before the (recent) Potato > >>> Famine. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hey Bob, , County Tyrone is of great interest to me. My line of FLEMINGS are from County Tyrone.....They came to US and lived in PA first. The lived on the frontier for a while but soon as they could off they all went to move down to South Carolina. Would be interested in how the Malcolm Fleming is related to you Lindsey??? Appreciate any help. Sarah Fleming Boldt ----- Original Message ----- From: "sean roche" <seanroche1@hotmail.com> To: <rglindsay@comcast.net>; "SCOTCH IRISH list" <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter > > HI, > > I would be very interested in buying a copy of this book if it included > any of my ancestors names - I know they went somewhere ??? > >>From Ulster the surname of interest would be FEE, and from the West of >>Ireland/Galway I am looking for the ROCHE surname. > > REGARDS, > > SEAN > > > > >> From: rglindsay@comcast.net >> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com >> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:26:31 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >> >> Hello List: >> >> Page three of "IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN" refers to a David >> Lindsey and a letter he wrote from County Tyrone in 1758 to his Fleming >> cousins in Pennsylvania (really New Jersey). Accumulated evidence >> suggests >> that this man is my gggGrandfather David Lindsay. >> >> Because I (after much looking) was unable to initiate a new thread, I'm >> adding this post in reply form. If this County Tyrone David Lindsey (or >> you >> may be a descendent of Malcolm Fleming) is perhaps of interest to you, >> let >> me know as I have 'stuff' to share! >> >> Linda, the "Start a new thread" instructions are: To post a new message >> on >> any board, click on the "Begin New Thread" link in the upper portion of >> the >> screen. This can be done at the home page of any board or when viewing a >> specific message on a board. >> >> I simply could not follow these instructions . . . send help! >> >> Bob Lindsay >> >> Email Checked by Norton >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Hugh Nevin >> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:24 AM >> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >> >> Hello Tom, >> >> The book is IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN: LETTERS AND MEMOIRS >> FROM COLONIAL AND REVOLUTIONARY AMERICA, 1675-1815. It is written and >> edited by Kerby A. Miller, Arnold Schrier, Bruce D. Boling, and David N. >> Doyle. Oxford University Press published it in 2003. >> >> Perhaps the best brief description of the book is in this Preface >> paragraph: >> "Each of the book's chapters focuses on one or more specific immigrants >> and >> on the documents they wrote or dictated. Thus, the chapters constitute a >> series of historical essays, each can stand alone, but together they >> represent at once the disparate character, the common themes, and the >> mosaiclike texture of early Irish migration." >> >> I did not find Spier/Speer in the Index. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hugh >> >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Tom Speer wrote: >> >> > Hugh, >> > I am trying to trace the origin of a gggrandfather William Speer whose >> > tombstone in Donegal gives his date of birth as 1781and age 84 years. >> > He >> > was a presbyterian who lived at Ballyboencuragh on the Ramelton road >> > from >> > Letterkenny. An 1847 survey of the then Manor Grove Estate shows a >> > William >> > Spier Sen. (and a William Spier Jun.) as tenants of part of >> Ballyboencuragh. >> > I should appreciate details of the book to which you refer as it seems >> > relevant. Thank you and kind regards. >> > Tom Speer >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Hugh Nevin" <hnevin@nycap.rr.com> >> > To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 3:50 PM >> > Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >> > >> > >> >> Joe and Linda, >> >> >> >> I happened to be online as Linda's reply came in. I've just looked >> >> quickly at the County Donegal listings in the Index of Irish >> >> Immigrants. >> >> I didn't see the specific phrase. Of the two references that caught my >> >> eye, the following (p. 107) seems a possible reference: "By at least >> >> the >> >> 1720s the fertile parishes of east Donegal,...were a major source of >> >> Presbyterian emigration that continued and perhaps accelerated after >> >> the >> >> American Revolution." >> >> >> >> Hugh Nevin >> >> >> >> On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:07 AM, lmerle@comcast.net wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Joe, actually it is from that book. I am busy and cannot promise >> >>> you >> >>> that I will find the time to research this for you. Perhaps try >> >>> again. >> >>> Google books is not likely to be useful for searching a book that is >> >>> in >> >>> copyright. The traditional way -- reading the book -- or using the >> >>> index >> >>> may help and if I get some time, I will try the index. >> >>> >> >>> Linda Merle >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Joe Flock" <joe.flock@yahoo.com> >> >>> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com >> >>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:04:17 AM >> >>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >> >>> >> >>> Hi Linda, >> >>> >> >>> Is this in Emigrants and Exiles? Do have the page reference or even >> >>> the >> >>> exact phrase? I have the book and have searched it several times but >> >>> can't find this quote. I even tried using Google books to search it >> >>> then >> >>> reading the paper pages for the ones Google isn't displaying and >> >>> still >> no >> >>> luck. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Joseph Flock III >> >>> >> >>> Linda wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Besides all that, Kirby Miller says in his book on Irish emigration >> >>> that >> >>> Donegal lost much of its population long before the (recent) Potato >> >>> Famine. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------- >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------- >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4778 - Release Date: 01/31/12 >

Hi folks, this notice from NGS in Upfront regarding the RootsTech conference, which is broadcasting some sessions free on the Internet. I've cut and pasted it in here since the post contained graphics. None of the topics are directly related to our subject matter, except that if we don't know how to feed cows, it's hard to succeed as a farmer. Likewise, we need to know the modern tools of the trade -- and here's some lectures on them. Free, even. Though frankly I don't even want to listen to a free lecture on Twitter <grin>. I guess I'm getting old and fallen by the wayside of the techie highway. Linda Merle SALT LAKE CITY—RootsTech, a leading family history and technology conference held in Salt Lake City, Utah, February 2-4, 2012, announced that fourteen of its popular sessions will be broadcasted live and complimentary over the Internet. The live broadcasts will give those unable to attend worldwide a sample of this year’s conference content. Interested viewers can watch the live presentations at RootsTech.org . The second-year conference has attracted over 3,000 registered attendees. The free online sessions include the keynote speakers and a sampling of technology and family history presentations. Following are the fourteen broadcasted sessions and speakers. All times are in Mountain Standard Time (MST): Thursday, February 2 8:30-10:00 am, Inventing the Future, as a Community (Keynote Address) by Jay L. Verkler 11:00 am-12:00 pm, Do I Trust the Cloud? by D. Joshua Taylor 1:45-2:45 pm, Effective Database Search Tactics by Kory Meyerink 3:00-4:00 pm, Twitter – It’s Not Just “What I Had for Breakfast” Anymore by Thomas MacEntee 4:15-5:15 pm, Eleven Layers of Online Searches by Barbara Renick Friday, February 3 8:30-9:30 am, Exabyte Social Clouds and Other Monstrosities (Keynote Address) by Josh Coates 9:45-10:45 am, Publish Your Genealogy Online by Laura G. Prescott 11:00 am-12:00 pm, Optimize Your Site for Search Engines by Robert Gardner 1:45-2:45 pm, Genealogists “Go Mobile” by Sandra Crowly 3:00-4:00 pm, Google’s Toolbar and Genealogy by Dave Barney Saturday, February 4 8:30-9:30 am, Making the Most of Technology to Further the Family History Industry (Keynote Address) by Tim Sullivan and Ancestry.com Panel 9:45-10:45 am Genealogy Podcasts and Blogs 101 by Lisa Louise Cooke 11:00 am-12:00 pm, Future of FamilySearch Family Tree by Ron Tanner 1:45-2:45 pm, Privacy in a Collaborative Environment by Noah Tatuk Also check out the downloads page for the Syllabi, Conference Guide and Expo Hall Map. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ copyright © National Genealogical Society, 3108 Columbia Pike, Suite 300, Arlington, Virginia 22204-4370. http://www.ngsgenealogy.org . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Republication of UpFront articles is permitted and encouraged for non-commercial purposes without express permission from NGS. Please drop us a note telling us where and when you are using the article. Express written permission is required if you wish to republish UpFront articles for commercial purposes. You may send a request for express written permission to UpFront@ngsgenealogy.org . All republished articles may not be edited or reworded and must contain the copyright statement found at the bottom of each UpFront article. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Follow NGS via Facebook , YouTube , Vimeo and Twitter . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Think your friends, colleagues, or fellow genealogy researchers would find this blog post interesting? If so, please let them know that anyone can read past UpFront with NGS posts or subscribe ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Suggestions for topics for future UpFront with NGS posts are always welcome. Please send any suggested topics to UpfrontNGS@mosaicrpm.com .

Hi Bob, I have no idea where you found such directions. To start a new thread, paste scotch-irish@rootsweb.com in the TO field of your email program. Fill in a subject and type in the body (text only). Perhaps one of the problems is this isn't a board. This is an email list. If you were trying to post to an email list using directions to post to a board, that won't work at all. This is the public page for this LIST: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/NIR/Scotch-Irish.html I note that the word 'board' doesn't appear in it anywhere. So I think that's the problem -- this is a cow, not a horse or rather a email list, not a board. With an email list the posts appear in your email inbox. Not on a webpage, unless you use a web browser-based email client (like me), in which case it still appears in your email inbox. Sometimes people think this is a 'site', but a 'site' is a webpage. This ain't. It's an email. Our host Rootsweb is a website, though. But it has thousands of email lists. And boards. And much much more besides! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Lindsay" <rglindsay@comcast.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 31 January, 2012 2:26:31 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter Hello List: Page three of "IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN" refers to a David Lindsey and a letter he wrote from County Tyrone in 1758 to his Fleming cousins in Pennsylvania (really New Jersey). Accumulated evidence suggests that this man is my gggGrandfather David Lindsay. Because I (after much looking) was unable to initiate a new thread, I'm adding this post in reply form. If this County Tyrone David Lindsey (or you may be a descendent of Malcolm Fleming) is perhaps of interest to you, let me know as I have 'stuff' to share! Linda, the "Start a new thread" instructions are: To post a new message on any board, click on the "Begin New Thread" link in the upper portion of the screen. This can be done at the home page of any board or when viewing a specific message on a board. I simply could not follow these instructions . . . send help! Bob Lindsay Email Checked by Norton -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Hugh Nevin Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:24 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter Hello Tom, The book is IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN: LETTERS AND MEMOIRS FROM COLONIAL AND REVOLUTIONARY AMERICA, 1675-1815. It is written and edited by Kerby A. Miller, Arnold Schrier, Bruce D. Boling, and David N. Doyle. Oxford University Press published it in 2003. Perhaps the best brief description of the book is in this Preface paragraph: "Each of the book's chapters focuses on one or more specific immigrants and on the documents they wrote or dictated. Thus, the chapters constitute a series of historical essays, each can stand alone, but together they represent at once the disparate character, the common themes, and the mosaiclike texture of early Irish migration." I did not find Spier/Speer in the Index. Regards, Hugh On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Tom Speer wrote: > Hugh, > I am trying to trace the origin of a gggrandfather William Speer whose > tombstone in Donegal gives his date of birth as 1781and age 84 years. He > was a presbyterian who lived at Ballyboencuragh on the Ramelton road from > Letterkenny. An 1847 survey of the then Manor Grove Estate shows a William > Spier Sen. (and a William Spier Jun.) as tenants of part of Ballyboencuragh. > I should appreciate details of the book to which you refer as it seems > relevant. Thank you and kind regards. > Tom Speer > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hugh Nevin" <hnevin@nycap.rr.com> > To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 3:50 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter > > >> Joe and Linda, >> >> I happened to be online as Linda's reply came in. I've just looked >> quickly at the County Donegal listings in the Index of Irish Immigrants. >> I didn't see the specific phrase. Of the two references that caught my >> eye, the following (p. 107) seems a possible reference: "By at least the >> 1720s the fertile parishes of east Donegal,...were a major source of >> Presbyterian emigration that continued and perhaps accelerated after the >> American Revolution." >> >> Hugh Nevin >> >> On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:07 AM, lmerle@comcast.net wrote: >> >>> Hi Joe, actually it is from that book. I am busy and cannot promise you >>> that I will find the time to research this for you. Perhaps try again. >>> Google books is not likely to be useful for searching a book that is in >>> copyright. The traditional way -- reading the book -- or using the index >>> may help and if I get some time, I will try the index. >>> >>> Linda Merle >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe Flock" <joe.flock@yahoo.com> >>> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com >>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:04:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >>> >>> Hi Linda, >>> >>> Is this in Emigrants and Exiles? Do have the page reference or even the >>> exact phrase? I have the book and have searched it several times but >>> can't find this quote. I even tried using Google books to search it then >>> reading the paper pages for the ones Google isn't displaying and still no >>> luck. >>> >>> >>> Joseph Flock III >>> >>> Linda wrote: >>> >>> Besides all that, Kirby Miller says in his book on Irish emigration that >>> Donegal lost much of its population long before the (recent) Potato >>> Famine. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This piece that I have posted on my blog is not likely to be of interest to all members of this list. What item ever is? That is, excepting the ones that Linda writes. They are always a hoot whether they fit with my research interests or not. I read them all. This piece will mostly be of interest to those who have families in Ireland in the mid-1800s in what were called /mixed marriages/, where only one of the couple was aligned to /the old Scottish kirk/ as my Irish great-great-grandmother would have called it. I learned a lot taking the time to assemble the information, and still have more to learn.If you spot any mistakes, please let me know. SEE: http://sharonoddiebrown.blogspot.com/2012/01/irregular-marriages.html Enjoy, Sharon -- Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: www.thesilverbowl.com

Hello List: Page three of "IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN" refers to a David Lindsey and a letter he wrote from County Tyrone in 1758 to his Fleming cousins in Pennsylvania (really New Jersey). Accumulated evidence suggests that this man is my gggGrandfather David Lindsay. Because I (after much looking) was unable to initiate a new thread, I'm adding this post in reply form. If this County Tyrone David Lindsey (or you may be a descendent of Malcolm Fleming) is perhaps of interest to you, let me know as I have 'stuff' to share! Linda, the "Start a new thread" instructions are: To post a new message on any board, click on the "Begin New Thread" link in the upper portion of the screen. This can be done at the home page of any board or when viewing a specific message on a board. I simply could not follow these instructions . . . send help! Bob Lindsay Email Checked by Norton -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Hugh Nevin Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:24 AM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter Hello Tom, The book is IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN: LETTERS AND MEMOIRS FROM COLONIAL AND REVOLUTIONARY AMERICA, 1675-1815. It is written and edited by Kerby A. Miller, Arnold Schrier, Bruce D. Boling, and David N. Doyle. Oxford University Press published it in 2003. Perhaps the best brief description of the book is in this Preface paragraph: "Each of the book's chapters focuses on one or more specific immigrants and on the documents they wrote or dictated. Thus, the chapters constitute a series of historical essays, each can stand alone, but together they represent at once the disparate character, the common themes, and the mosaiclike texture of early Irish migration." I did not find Spier/Speer in the Index. Regards, Hugh On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Tom Speer wrote: > Hugh, > I am trying to trace the origin of a gggrandfather William Speer whose > tombstone in Donegal gives his date of birth as 1781and age 84 years. He > was a presbyterian who lived at Ballyboencuragh on the Ramelton road from > Letterkenny. An 1847 survey of the then Manor Grove Estate shows a William > Spier Sen. (and a William Spier Jun.) as tenants of part of Ballyboencuragh. > I should appreciate details of the book to which you refer as it seems > relevant. Thank you and kind regards. > Tom Speer > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hugh Nevin" <hnevin@nycap.rr.com> > To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 3:50 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter > > >> Joe and Linda, >> >> I happened to be online as Linda's reply came in. I've just looked >> quickly at the County Donegal listings in the Index of Irish Immigrants. >> I didn't see the specific phrase. Of the two references that caught my >> eye, the following (p. 107) seems a possible reference: "By at least the >> 1720s the fertile parishes of east Donegal,...were a major source of >> Presbyterian emigration that continued and perhaps accelerated after the >> American Revolution." >> >> Hugh Nevin >> >> On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:07 AM, lmerle@comcast.net wrote: >> >>> Hi Joe, actually it is from that book. I am busy and cannot promise you >>> that I will find the time to research this for you. Perhaps try again. >>> Google books is not likely to be useful for searching a book that is in >>> copyright. The traditional way -- reading the book -- or using the index >>> may help and if I get some time, I will try the index. >>> >>> Linda Merle >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Joe Flock" <joe.flock@yahoo.com> >>> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com >>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:04:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >>> >>> Hi Linda, >>> >>> Is this in Emigrants and Exiles? Do have the page reference or even the >>> exact phrase? I have the book and have searched it several times but >>> can't find this quote. I even tried using Google books to search it then >>> reading the paper pages for the ones Google isn't displaying and still no >>> luck. >>> >>> >>> Joseph Flock III >>> >>> Linda wrote: >>> >>> Besides all that, Kirby Miller says in his book on Irish emigration that >>> Donegal lost much of its population long before the (recent) Potato >>> Famine. >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-pages.php The above contains many databases that might be useful to list members who are researching their Ulster ancestry. Les Tate

Yes it is lovely when a hunch pays off. Nice work!! On 29/01/2012 17:45, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains versus Native American Sioux > > > Going on a hunch from something I read in "Born Fighting" by Jim Webb > about many of the scots being tight-knit families that emigrated and > settled together, and stuck together for generations I looked for Weirs and > Gilchrists near my McLains in Tyrone& Londonderry. In Tyrone's hearth > rolls on the next farm over from my ancestor John McLain...

Congratulations! Judy Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Beal <crbeal@gmail.com> Sender: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 12:21:25 To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains versus Native American Sioux Thank you everyone for all the knowledge on this thread. I did some extensive research last night and I believe I've found my answer. I got into Dumfries parish registers to see if there was any more info on "Gilbert M'Cleene" who had sons Andrew and Thomas in 1606 & 1610 respectively. I found his daughters married a Thomas Gilchrist and a James Weir. There were several McKlein, Weir, Gilchryst baptismals up to 1625 (including a John Weir b. 1623) and all three families simultaneously disappear. Going on a hunch from something I read in "Born Fighting" by Jim Webb about many of the scots being tight-knit families that emigrated and settled together, and stuck together for generations I looked for Weirs and Gilchrists near my McLains in Tyrone & Londonderry. In Tyrone's hearth rolls on the next farm over from my ancestor John McLain... 54. John Weire, Roan, Clonfeakle 55. John McKline, Coolkill, Clonfeakle In St. Columb's a John Weir marries in 1661, the same time my ancestors appear first as protestant parishioners. It's very exciting to finally have an answer on their origin and I just found that many records survive from Dumfries in this timeframe and I can't wait to dive in. So most likely the Gilbert McCleene of Clogher mentioned in 1626 summonisters rolls and the John McClane in the Londonderry muster list of 1630 were brothers that emigrated from Dumfries circa 1625. Chris Beal On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 10:25 AM, <lmerle@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi Dave, it seems to me that the analogy with American Indians can be > overdrawn. Any analogy can. The most likely comparision is that the > "English" learned from their experiences with the Irish, not only the > Ulster plantation but the prior attempts at colonizing Ireland that occured > in the Elizabeth period and earlier. Most of these failed. Often they > failed because there were just too many Irish and too few colonists. Faced > with a huge continent lightly sprinkled with natives, some have opined that > they killed as many as they could, knowing that if left alive to have > families, perhaps some day they would again be out numbered. I don't know! > What we do know is in Canada, where the English government treated its > Indian subjects much more kindly than the folks to the south, the Indians > never have increased in numbers to the point of threatening British rule. > > However I've never heard of the word 'scout' being used in northern > Ireland in the same way it was used in the American west. What we do know > is that the English and Irish did cooperate to some extent in the > 'enshirement' of Ulster. Cyril Falls details the process in his book on the > Ulster plantation ("T he Birth of Ulster "). A team of English met with > small groups to determine how much land there was and its condition > (bogland, etc). They of course collected names of places. Based on these > maps the allocation of the escheated lands was done -- in '1000 acre' > plots. However these were later found to be extremely inaccurate. What it > does show is cooperation between the English surveyors and the local Irish > population. THis is certainly not how the Americas were settled. > > The situation was very different in that there were more Irish than > Indians and the land was better known than the American west. And to some > extent both parties communicated. Some have opined (Bardon, Elliott, etc) > that the early records show that many common Irish cooperated willingly > with the English because they had very few rights under the Irish lords and > fared better under the English. How they'd know this at first I do not > know. Perhaps over time they realized they were better off. This could be a > reason for the sizable assimilation of Irish into the settler culture. > Donno! Even the historians argue about this stuff. > > What we know about the muster lists is generally they included British but > clearly they also included Irish surnames. Presumedly those bearing Irish > surnames were Irish and presumedly trusted. Probably some in the 1630 > muster lists later 'came out' in the Rising. We are told by the historians > that the reasons for the Rising were complicated and that the leaders, > even, had multiple reasons. Which is why they were generally called > 'Confederates'. You apparently had Stuart Loyalists, rising in support of > King Charles in London. Some were Catholic and rising in support of the old > religion. You also had Irish rising in support of throwing off the English > yoke. Whether they envisioned a united Ireland or just clan autonomy, I > don't know. "Celtic Dimensions of the British Civil Wars" has many > interesting views on this topic. > > Those who rose included not only Irish but Anglo-Irish (Jacobites and > Catholics). So who is to say why a man was on a muster list in 1630 and > 'Out' in 1641? It was a civil war, one of many in Ireland, and so everyone > involved thought they were rising to support the true government. It just > so happened that Parliament and Cromwell won. T hey got to write history > their way and so branded all as traitors. They were not too interested in > sorting out reasons for the piles of bodies. As is usual in Ireland, what > began, for some, as a noble cause, degenerated into a massacre -- one of > many. A feature seen in Ireland, but not generally in England or Scotland. > > The more one reads the less black and white these things are. > > "Celtic Dimensions" has a series of articles written on the period, not > always focused on IReland. For example Sharon Adam's article "The Making of > the Radical South-West: Charles I and his Scottish Kingdom, 1625-1649." > > Another useful book is "The Scottish Migration to Ulster in the Reign of > James I" by Perceval-Maxwell. Very detailed. "The Birth of Ulster" by Cyril > Falls is very readable. Though the Irish populist version of history > depicts it as the English siezing Ulster illegally, in actuality, it was a > legal process, according to English law. Meaning once the Lords surrendered > and accepted the QUeen's terms, they were subjects of the Crown and subject > to its law. Their land was then held by 'surrender and regrant'. They > surrendered it to the Crown and it granted it back. This notion is key to > feudal law: the king held all the land and granted it out to subjects. If > the subjects didn't obey, the king took it back. We still do this in the > USA: if you sell drugs and the police catch you, your car, etc, is > surrendered to the authorities. > > In any case, when the Lords split Ireland, under English law, it returned > to the Crown. The regranting had to be legally done (according to Cyril > Falls) because otherwise, many decades of lawsuits would occur as various > parties wrestled to get clear title. They knew this would occur due to past > experience with the Desmond Wars, etc, in southern Ireland. The Earls, > etc., were not naked American savages. They were cousins, friends, > retainers, of the Crown and its subjects. Many of whom didn't want to see > them naked and starving because they loved them! It was more of a very very > disfunctional family feud, due to various attempts to pacify the Ulster > Irish by raising them in the English court and marrying them off to English > ladies. Didn't work, of course. > > Though the Indian scouts get all the attention, it's far more likely the > Indian trader was much more influential in America. Perhaps the Scottish > trader in Ireland too .... donno (though the English records complain about > them a lot). In America these traders were the ones who married the Indian > maidens and forged alliances with Indian tribes. Sir William Johnson, for > one, was immensely successful and rose to become a key player in the French > and Indian Wars -- from a humble beginning as a poor Irish Catholic lad > with a wealthy uncle. Various others also secured large plots of land for > themselves and their families -- almost always intermarrying with the > Indians. So I am sure it became difficult to tell who was an Indian and who > was not. Because many were both. > > The analogy with Indians and Irish too may be most appropriate when > thinking of the individual Scotch Irishman, living on the frontier, rather > than a government policy. I know my immigrant ancestor shot Indians on > sight in what is now Butler Co, PA. This was after the Indians had sold the > area to Pennsylvania, so the Indian would have been trespassing, according > to our law. Whether the Indian understood the concept of owning land -- now > that's another thought. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, 29 January, 2012 6:25:35 AM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains versus Native American Sioux > > Couldn't one say the same thing about America and the use of e.g. native > American Indians within a settlement as scouts etc? > > Generally a man on a muster list in 1730 would not be a native American > Indian. They didn't much like arming Indians because they tended to use the > weapon against theBritish. Just 11 years after 1730 the Indians would rise > up, weapons or not, and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were > right to fear. This is not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate > in British. > > So, if one's ancestor was native American and living in a British fort > with the planters/settlers wouldn't one be asking if he/she was British or > Native American? Probably to the British they were Indians and to the > Indians they were British! > > Similarly, if one's ancestor was native Irish and living in a British fort > in Ulster with the planters/settlers one is asking if he/she was British or > Native Irish? Probably to the British they were Irish and to the Irish > they were British! > > > > > On 29/01/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't > > >> much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against > the > > >> British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or > not, > > >> and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. > This is > > >> not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The > upper > > >> classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates > and > > >> so had a lot to lose in an uprising. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > * * ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dave, it seems to me that the analogy with American Indians can be overdrawn. Any analogy can. The most likely comparision is that the "English" learned from their experiences with the Irish, not only the Ulster plantation but the prior attempts at colonizing Ireland that occured in the Elizabeth period and earlier. Most of these failed. Often they failed because there were just too many Irish and too few colonists. Faced with a huge continent lightly sprinkled with natives, some have opined that they killed as many as they could, knowing that if left alive to have families, perhaps some day they would again be out numbered. I don't know! What we do know is in Canada, where the English government treated its Indian subjects much more kindly than the folks to the south, the Indians never have increased in numbers to the point of threatening British rule. However I've never heard of the word 'scout' being used in northern Ireland in the same way it was used in the American west. What we do know is that the English and Irish did cooperate to some extent in the 'enshirement' of Ulster. Cyril Falls details the process in his book on the Ulster plantation ("T he Birth of Ulster "). A team of English met with small groups to determine how much land there was and its condition (bogland, etc). They of course collected names of places. Based on these maps the allocation of the escheated lands was done -- in '1000 acre' plots. However these were later found to be extremely inaccurate. What it does show is cooperation between the English surveyors and the local Irish population. THis is certainly not how the Americas were settled. The situation was very different in that there were more Irish than Indians and the land was better known than the American west. And to some extent both parties communicated. Some have opined (Bardon, Elliott, etc) that the early records show that many common Irish cooperated willingly with the English because they had very few rights under the Irish lords and fared better under the English. How they'd know this at first I do not know. Perhaps over time they realized they were better off. This could be a reason for the sizable assimilation of Irish into the settler culture. Donno! Even the historians argue about this stuff. What we know about the muster lists is generally they included British but clearly they also included Irish surnames. Presumedly those bearing Irish surnames were Irish and presumedly trusted. Probably some in the 1630 muster lists later 'came out' in the Rising. We are told by the historians that the reasons for the Rising were complicated and that the leaders, even, had multiple reasons. Which is why they were generally called 'Confederates'. You apparently had Stuart Loyalists, rising in support of King Charles in London. Some were Catholic and rising in support of the old religion. You also had Irish rising in support of throwing off the English yoke. Whether they envisioned a united Ireland or just clan autonomy, I don't know. "Celtic Dimensions of the British Civil Wars" has many interesting views on this topic. Those who rose included not only Irish but Anglo-Irish (Jacobites and Catholics). So who is to say why a man was on a muster list in 1630 and 'Out' in 1641? It was a civil war, one of many in Ireland, and so everyone involved thought they were rising to support the true government. It just so happened that Parliament and Cromwell won. T hey got to write history their way and so branded all as traitors. They were not too interested in sorting out reasons for the piles of bodies. As is usual in Ireland, what began, for some, as a noble cause, degenerated into a massacre -- one of many. A feature seen in Ireland, but not generally in England or Scotland. The more one reads the less black and white these things are. "Celtic Dimensions" has a series of articles written on the period, not always focused on IReland. For example Sharon Adam's article "The Making of the Radical South-West: Charles I and his Scottish Kingdom, 1625-1649." Another useful book is "The Scottish Migration to Ulster in the Reign of James I" by Perceval-Maxwell. Very detailed. "The Birth of Ulster" by Cyril Falls is very readable. Though the Irish populist version of history depicts it as the English siezing Ulster illegally, in actuality, it was a legal process, according to English law. Meaning once the Lords surrendered and accepted the QUeen's terms, they were subjects of the Crown and subject to its law. Their land was then held by 'surrender and regrant'. They surrendered it to the Crown and it granted it back. This notion is key to feudal law: the king held all the land and granted it out to subjects. If the subjects didn't obey, the king took it back. We still do this in the USA: if you sell drugs and the police catch you, your car, etc, is surrendered to the authorities. In any case, when the Lords split Ireland, under English law, it returned to the Crown. The regranting had to be legally done (according to Cyril Falls) because otherwise, many decades of lawsuits would occur as various parties wrestled to get clear title. They knew this would occur due to past experience with the Desmond Wars, etc, in southern Ireland. The Earls, etc., were not naked American savages. They were cousins, friends, retainers, of the Crown and its subjects. Many of whom didn't want to see them naked and starving because they loved them! It was more of a very very disfunctional family feud, due to various attempts to pacify the Ulster Irish by raising them in the English court and marrying them off to English ladies. Didn't work, of course. Though the Indian scouts get all the attention, it's far more likely the Indian trader was much more influential in America. Perhaps the Scottish trader in Ireland too .... donno (though the English records complain about them a lot). In America these traders were the ones who married the Indian maidens and forged alliances with Indian tribes. Sir William Johnson, for one, was immensely successful and rose to become a key player in the French and Indian Wars -- from a humble beginning as a poor Irish Catholic lad with a wealthy uncle. Various others also secured large plots of land for themselves and their families -- almost always intermarrying with the Indians. So I am sure it became difficult to tell who was an Indian and who was not. Because many were both. The analogy with Indians and Irish too may be most appropriate when thinking of the individual Scotch Irishman, living on the frontier, rather than a government policy. I know my immigrant ancestor shot Indians on sight in what is now Butler Co, PA. This was after the Indians had sold the area to Pennsylvania, so the Indian would have been trespassing, according to our law. Whether the Indian understood the concept of owning land -- now that's another thought. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 29 January, 2012 6:25:35 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains versus Native American Sioux Couldn't one say the same thing about America and the use of e.g. native American Indians within a settlement as scouts etc? Generally a man on a muster list in 1730 would not be a native American Indian. They didn't much like arming Indians because they tended to use the weapon against theBritish. Just 11 years after 1730 the Indians would rise up, weapons or not, and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. So, if one's ancestor was native American and living in a British fort with the planters/settlers wouldn't one be asking if he/she was British or Native American? Probably to the British they were Indians and to the Indians they were British! Similarly, if one's ancestor was native Irish and living in a British fort in Ulster with the planters/settlers one is asking if he/she was British or Native Irish? Probably to the British they were Irish and to the Irish they were British! On 29/01/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't > >> much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against the > >> British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or not, > >> and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is > >> not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The upper > >> classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates and > >> so had a lot to lose in an uprising. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you everyone for all the knowledge on this thread. I did some extensive research last night and I believe I've found my answer. I got into Dumfries parish registers to see if there was any more info on "Gilbert M'Cleene" who had sons Andrew and Thomas in 1606 & 1610 respectively. I found his daughters married a Thomas Gilchrist and a James Weir. There were several McKlein, Weir, Gilchryst baptismals up to 1625 (including a John Weir b. 1623) and all three families simultaneously disappear. Going on a hunch from something I read in "Born Fighting" by Jim Webb about many of the scots being tight-knit families that emigrated and settled together, and stuck together for generations I looked for Weirs and Gilchrists near my McLains in Tyrone & Londonderry. In Tyrone's hearth rolls on the next farm over from my ancestor John McLain... 54. John Weire, Roan, Clonfeakle 55. John McKline, Coolkill, Clonfeakle In St. Columb's a John Weir marries in 1661, the same time my ancestors appear first as protestant parishioners. It's very exciting to finally have an answer on their origin and I just found that many records survive from Dumfries in this timeframe and I can't wait to dive in. So most likely the Gilbert McCleene of Clogher mentioned in 1626 summonisters rolls and the John McClane in the Londonderry muster list of 1630 were brothers that emigrated from Dumfries circa 1625. Chris Beal On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 10:25 AM, <lmerle@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi Dave, it seems to me that the analogy with American Indians can be > overdrawn. Any analogy can. The most likely comparision is that the > "English" learned from their experiences with the Irish, not only the > Ulster plantation but the prior attempts at colonizing Ireland that occured > in the Elizabeth period and earlier. Most of these failed. Often they > failed because there were just too many Irish and too few colonists. Faced > with a huge continent lightly sprinkled with natives, some have opined that > they killed as many as they could, knowing that if left alive to have > families, perhaps some day they would again be out numbered. I don't know! > What we do know is in Canada, where the English government treated its > Indian subjects much more kindly than the folks to the south, the Indians > never have increased in numbers to the point of threatening British rule. > > However I've never heard of the word 'scout' being used in northern > Ireland in the same way it was used in the American west. What we do know > is that the English and Irish did cooperate to some extent in the > 'enshirement' of Ulster. Cyril Falls details the process in his book on the > Ulster plantation ("T he Birth of Ulster "). A team of English met with > small groups to determine how much land there was and its condition > (bogland, etc). They of course collected names of places. Based on these > maps the allocation of the escheated lands was done -- in '1000 acre' > plots. However these were later found to be extremely inaccurate. What it > does show is cooperation between the English surveyors and the local Irish > population. THis is certainly not how the Americas were settled. > > The situation was very different in that there were more Irish than > Indians and the land was better known than the American west. And to some > extent both parties communicated. Some have opined (Bardon, Elliott, etc) > that the early records show that many common Irish cooperated willingly > with the English because they had very few rights under the Irish lords and > fared better under the English. How they'd know this at first I do not > know. Perhaps over time they realized they were better off. This could be a > reason for the sizable assimilation of Irish into the settler culture. > Donno! Even the historians argue about this stuff. > > What we know about the muster lists is generally they included British but > clearly they also included Irish surnames. Presumedly those bearing Irish > surnames were Irish and presumedly trusted. Probably some in the 1630 > muster lists later 'came out' in the Rising. We are told by the historians > that the reasons for the Rising were complicated and that the leaders, > even, had multiple reasons. Which is why they were generally called > 'Confederates'. You apparently had Stuart Loyalists, rising in support of > King Charles in London. Some were Catholic and rising in support of the old > religion. You also had Irish rising in support of throwing off the English > yoke. Whether they envisioned a united Ireland or just clan autonomy, I > don't know. "Celtic Dimensions of the British Civil Wars" has many > interesting views on this topic. > > Those who rose included not only Irish but Anglo-Irish (Jacobites and > Catholics). So who is to say why a man was on a muster list in 1630 and > 'Out' in 1641? It was a civil war, one of many in Ireland, and so everyone > involved thought they were rising to support the true government. It just > so happened that Parliament and Cromwell won. T hey got to write history > their way and so branded all as traitors. They were not too interested in > sorting out reasons for the piles of bodies. As is usual in Ireland, what > began, for some, as a noble cause, degenerated into a massacre -- one of > many. A feature seen in Ireland, but not generally in England or Scotland. > > The more one reads the less black and white these things are. > > "Celtic Dimensions" has a series of articles written on the period, not > always focused on IReland. For example Sharon Adam's article "The Making of > the Radical South-West: Charles I and his Scottish Kingdom, 1625-1649." > > Another useful book is "The Scottish Migration to Ulster in the Reign of > James I" by Perceval-Maxwell. Very detailed. "The Birth of Ulster" by Cyril > Falls is very readable. Though the Irish populist version of history > depicts it as the English siezing Ulster illegally, in actuality, it was a > legal process, according to English law. Meaning once the Lords surrendered > and accepted the QUeen's terms, they were subjects of the Crown and subject > to its law. Their land was then held by 'surrender and regrant'. They > surrendered it to the Crown and it granted it back. This notion is key to > feudal law: the king held all the land and granted it out to subjects. If > the subjects didn't obey, the king took it back. We still do this in the > USA: if you sell drugs and the police catch you, your car, etc, is > surrendered to the authorities. > > In any case, when the Lords split Ireland, under English law, it returned > to the Crown. The regranting had to be legally done (according to Cyril > Falls) because otherwise, many decades of lawsuits would occur as various > parties wrestled to get clear title. They knew this would occur due to past > experience with the Desmond Wars, etc, in southern Ireland. The Earls, > etc., were not naked American savages. They were cousins, friends, > retainers, of the Crown and its subjects. Many of whom didn't want to see > them naked and starving because they loved them! It was more of a very very > disfunctional family feud, due to various attempts to pacify the Ulster > Irish by raising them in the English court and marrying them off to English > ladies. Didn't work, of course. > > Though the Indian scouts get all the attention, it's far more likely the > Indian trader was much more influential in America. Perhaps the Scottish > trader in Ireland too .... donno (though the English records complain about > them a lot). In America these traders were the ones who married the Indian > maidens and forged alliances with Indian tribes. Sir William Johnson, for > one, was immensely successful and rose to become a key player in the French > and Indian Wars -- from a humble beginning as a poor Irish Catholic lad > with a wealthy uncle. Various others also secured large plots of land for > themselves and their families -- almost always intermarrying with the > Indians. So I am sure it became difficult to tell who was an Indian and who > was not. Because many were both. > > The analogy with Indians and Irish too may be most appropriate when > thinking of the individual Scotch Irishman, living on the frontier, rather > than a government policy. I know my immigrant ancestor shot Indians on > sight in what is now Butler Co, PA. This was after the Indians had sold the > area to Pennsylvania, so the Indian would have been trespassing, according > to our law. Whether the Indian understood the concept of owning land -- now > that's another thought. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, 29 January, 2012 6:25:35 AM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains versus Native American Sioux > > Couldn't one say the same thing about America and the use of e.g. native > American Indians within a settlement as scouts etc? > > Generally a man on a muster list in 1730 would not be a native American > Indian. They didn't much like arming Indians because they tended to use the > weapon against theBritish. Just 11 years after 1730 the Indians would rise > up, weapons or not, and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were > right to fear. This is not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate > in British. > > So, if one's ancestor was native American and living in a British fort > with the planters/settlers wouldn't one be asking if he/she was British or > Native American? Probably to the British they were Indians and to the > Indians they were British! > > Similarly, if one's ancestor was native Irish and living in a British fort > in Ulster with the planters/settlers one is asking if he/she was British or > Native Irish? Probably to the British they were Irish and to the Irish > they were British! > > > > > On 29/01/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't > > >> much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against > the > > >> British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or > not, > > >> and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. > This is > > >> not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The > upper > > >> classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates > and > > >> so had a lot to lose in an uprising. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > * *

Couldn't one say the same thing about America and the use of e.g. native American Indians within a settlement as scouts etc? Generally a man on a muster list in 1730 would not be a native American Indian. They didn't much like arming Indians because they tended to use the weapon against theBritish. Just 11 years after 1730 the Indians would rise up, weapons or not, and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. So, if one's ancestor was native American and living in a British fort with the planters/settlers wouldn't one be asking if he/she was British or Native American? Probably to the British they were Indians and to the Indians they were British! Similarly, if one's ancestor was native Irish and living in a British fort in Ulster with the planters/settlers one is asking if he/she was British or Native Irish? Probably to the British they were Irish and to the Irish they were British! On 29/01/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't > >> much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against the > >> British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or not, > >> and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is > >> not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The upper > >> classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates and > >> so had a lot to lose in an uprising.

Hi John, one of the truisms about English history and law is that the further you are from London, the less anyone observed it. Donegal was rather far! Also King James had a keen interest in the Plantation, but his son did not. So one he passed on, all the laws were largely ignored. Two other 'gotchas': servitors and native plantations. The soldiers, etc, who fought the war, were given lands largely in the western parts of Ulster, where there was the most natives and the greatest need for seasoned soldiers with experience in Ireland. Many of the soldiers were 'soldiers of fortune', not great lords. Then there was Cavin, where the 'natives' were given plantations, much smaller lots, of course. This is in Hanna "The Scotch Irish". Most, if not all of these Irish would lose their lands by the end of the 1600s. It became almost impossible to be Irish and Catholic and to be a land owner. One way or another you got caught up in the politics of the time and came out on the losing side. Even being loyal to the King of England wasn't sufficient to get you through the 1650s. You had to prove loyality to Parliament, which beheaded King Charlie, who was accused of being a Catholic. Also the chiefs of various Irish clans were given small estates. For example in the very area of interest the descendants of the McCahan clan were given estates. I got the townlands, etc., in my records here. However they would all lose these lands within a generation or two, largely due to their not adapting immediately to the new order (paying taxes, etc) and outright crookery on the part of various British, who tricked them out of their holdings. It's quite a sad story, repeated all over Ulster. It is where our ancestors learned to destroy native cultures, an art they perfected in America. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Carey" <johnca@quickclic.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, 28 January, 2012 6:20:21 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down Hi, Linda. I think that you are right on the money with your comment " Elliott's "Catholics of Ulster" very interesting reading no matter who you think your ancestors were." Recently, I have been looking in more depth at the history of the Laggan region trying to understand how the turmoil of the 1610-1650 period affected the individual I suspect might have been my ancestor. He was mentioned in Pynnar's Survey as one of the early tenants of a Donegal Undertaker but did not show up in the muster roll in 1630 for that Undertaker. Pynnar's survey also noted that many of the tenants had not taken the oath. As I now understand it, if they did not take an oath that they would be loyal subjects of the English king and be Protestant (i.e. Church of Ireland) they would not be regarded by the conditions placed on Undertakers as acceptable tenants for Plantation purposes. However, a man with the same name did show up on a muster roll just a few miles away in Strabane in Co. Tyrone. The interesting thing is that, except for the Chief Undertaker there who was the Earl of Abercorn, many of the other Undertakers in the west Ardstraw area were noted as remaining Catholic. Both Pynnar's survey and the earlier one noted that these folks, several of whom were relatives of the Earl, were also not in compliance with the restriction on leasing land to the "mere Irish". Some of them even sided with the Irish in the later rebellions and for a time lost their land. So, I'm now convinced that the situation with respect to religion was not nearly as clear cut as I formerly believed, at least in the early period of the Plantation. John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: January-28-12 4:29 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down Hi John, another one is Jonathan Bardon's "Plantation of Ulster ". I have it on order but haven't read it yet. The Blurb says: "The Plantation of Ulster was the most ambitious scheme of colonisation ever attempted in modern Europe, and one of the largest European migrations of the period. It was a pivotal episode in Irish history, sending shock waves reverberating down the centuries. In this vivid account, the author punctures some generally held assumptions: despite slaughter and famine, the province was not completely depopulated as was often asserted at the time; the native Irish were not deliberately given the most infertile land; some of the most energetic planters were Catholic; and the Catholic Church there emerged stronger than before. Above all, natives and newcomers fused to a greater degree than is widely believed: apart from recent immigrants, nearly all Ulster people today have the blood of both Planter and Gael flowing in their veins. Nevertheless, memories of dispossession and massacre, etched into the folk memory, were to ignite explosive outbreaks of intercommunal conflict down to o! ur own time. The Plantation was also the beginning of a far greater exodus to North America. Subsequently, descendants of Ulster planters crossed the Atlantic in their tens of thousands to play a central role in shaping the United States of America." Another is "The Plantation of Ulster" by Philip Robinson. It focuses on the process of colonization. Somewhere there's another book I like, but I can't find it right now. Later in history ....I see on my bookshelf "Cromwellian Ireland" by T C Barnard and "The Williamite War in Ireland 1688-1691" by Richard Doherty. Bardon's "History of Ulster" is probably the best (certainly the thickest) general history of Ulster. I also found, for general history of Ulster and its inhabitants, Elliott's "Catholics of Ulster" very interesting reading no matter who you think your ancestors were. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Carey" <johnca@quickclic.net> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:23:07 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Plantation of Down It's not a scholarly book but you might check out http://www.hamiltonmontgomery1606.com/ John Carey -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David N. Young Sent: January-28-12 12:11 PM To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] Plantation of Down Can anyone please recommend a good modern scholarly book about the plantation in [present] Co. Down [that Linda mentioned as being different than the others in the Irish N. East? Thanks ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dave, >P.S. I noted you used past tense here!.."there was a lot of illegal trading going on with people all over Europe". Why past tense? To throw off the police <grin> . Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, 28 January, 2012 5:37:14 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? Yes it is strange, as such, that many things just disappear into the mists of time, the Templar castles up and down the west coast of Ireland for example! Every now and then old churches/graveyards are uncovered by winter storms...one would imagine that some of the locals would have at least known there was a graveyard in the area!..ok, not documented but at least known about! A Spanish Armada ship was discovered this summer in a harbour on west coast, lying in 4 meters of clear water and no one knew it was even there....completely forgotten about! http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1114150 (if you can view it!) Dave P.S. I noted you used past tense here!.."there was a lot of illegal trading going on with people all over Europe". Why past tense?? LOL ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Been taken off by RTE this is on BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-14418698 Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of D H > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 10:37 PM > To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > > Yes it is strange, as such, that many things just disappear > into the mists of time, the Templar castles up and down the > west coast of Ireland for example! > > Every now and then old churches/graveyards are uncovered by > winter storms...one would imagine that some of the locals > would have at least known there was a graveyard in the > area!..ok, not documented but at least known about! > > A Spanish Armada ship was discovered this summer in a harbour > on west coast, lying in 4 meters of clear water and no one > knew it was even there....completely forgotten about! > > http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1114150 (if you can view it!) > > > Dave > > P.S. I noted you used past tense here!.."there was a lot of > illegal trading going on with people all over Europe". Why > past tense?? LOL > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes it is strange, as such, that many things just disappear into the mists of time, the Templar castles up and down the west coast of Ireland for example! Every now and then old churches/graveyards are uncovered by winter storms...one would imagine that some of the locals would have at least known there was a graveyard in the area!..ok, not documented but at least known about! A Spanish Armada ship was discovered this summer in a harbour on west coast, lying in 4 meters of clear water and no one knew it was even there....completely forgotten about! http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1114150 (if you can view it!) Dave P.S. I noted you used past tense here!.."there was a lot of illegal trading going on with people all over Europe". Why past tense?? LOL

Hi Christopher, it's possible your McClains came as soldier/settlers too. Perhaps they came by way of Antrim and the McDonalds or direct from Dunfriess or elsewhere. I totally agree with you that, based on the surnames alone, this period was not as black and white as many would like to believe. Loughinsholin, etc -- that was the heart of the old O'Neill kingdom, well defended by forest (hacked down by the English) and mountains (they couldn't do much about them). Depending on your point of view it was either the heart of darkness or of light. It was completely lost during the 1641 Rising -- all settlers were slaughtered or run off. So as you can see they were either Irish or good soldiers, this much we know <grin>. The r1b1c7 list at rootsweb might be able to assist with DNA analysis. I'm assuming M22 plus?? Also the admin of the Ulster Heritage DNA project could assist, but whether he has the time or not, I donno. He certainly knows the DNA of the Irish of central Ulster. Might be able to sort out the McDonalds from the Irish. Maybe!! Me mother was a McDonald (ancestors from Antrim), me dad was a Campbell (ancestors surnamed Ure from Scotland).....they fought a lot but enjoyed every minute of it. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Beal" <crbeal@gmail.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 11:34:57 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? Thanks everyone for your insight! The John McClane in 1630 was on the vintners proportion of land near Bellaghy. There does seem to be a small proportion of Scots (Gillaspick, Campbell, McHale, McGildress and Stuart) appearing on the muster list as well. I recently got the Ulster army lists and all of the McLains I found were mustered in Antrim/Down/Donegal (8 of them named John) except for one, and there were also plenty of Irish surnames in these regiments also so I learned this time period wasn't as "black and white" as history has made it out to be. One name sticks out as a possiblity: a Thomas Maklane in the Londonderry garrison mustered in 1643. In the Dumfries parish registers, Gilbert has sons "Andro", "Elisoune", "Cristian", and "Thomas" being the last baptism in 1610 before the family disappears from that area. The Andrew McLane of Tullinisken (Tyrone) parish names a son John in 1667 St. Columb's I definitely need to learn more about Loughinsholin in the 1630s, most of what I read sounds like what was spoken by Bagenal :* “then the most inaccessible corner of mountains, woods and bogs in Ulster, formed the main O’Neill stronghold for cattle and other possessions in time of danger, and an ultimate refuge for Ulster rebels."* Also stated referencing the 1641 rebellion I found *"after the rebellion, there were not as much as eight people in Loughinsholin for years afterward"* which I figured meant settlers. I'm currently reading Leyburn's "The Scotch-Irish: A social history" which is incredibly infomative and he tells about the natives always willing to pay the higher rent rather than give up their attachment to their ancestral homeland. This brings to mind the McLains in the Loughinsholin area from the 1620s to the late 18th century, but it could just be these are the leases they could afford and the land they became attached to. I've put together a phylogenic tree of my dna matches and it seems our lines all cross circa 1600-1650 in Ulster as they are part of the later diaspora to America and all their surnames are spelled McLaine/McClaine/McLain On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 10:12 AM, <lmerle@comcast.net> wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > Probably if these men were on a muster roll in the early 1600s they were > not believed to be Irish by their landlords. If you read up on the > Plantation (start with Hanna "The Scotch Irish"), you will encounter the > conditions undertakers had to meet. They included that the undertaker > settle a certain number of British on the estate and be able to put men in > the field to defend it with arms. They were also required to evict the > Irish. They had to be Protestant and their tenants were supposed to be as > well. They were required to build an English style house (a bawn). etc. etc. > > I'm recalling from memory here, so I could be wrong on the details in some > small ways so do your own research. You get what you pay for and this is > free. > > Two key points to recall here: 1: they were supposed to evict the Irish. > Key point 2: no one ever follows the law exactly. Not now and not then. > Some didn't fulfill the conditions and some did. > > Some Scots undertakers were Catholic and seeded their estates with Scots > Catholic tenants. Some did nothing. Most didn't evict their Irish tenants > or at least not all of them. Why? Because they needed them. They needed > them to run the estate and to bring in the harvest. No harvest meant > famine. Oddly enough, Brits die from lack of food as fast as Irish, so they > tried to avoid famine. In many locations eating required the labor of Irish > people. > > This is a generality and it is generally true. The further east you were > in Ulster, the more Scots and the less dependency on Irish. This is also a > generality. It's important to also recall that Antrim and Down were NOT > SETTLED UNDER THESE LAWS. That's right. They were private plantations -- > already 'done' by the time the Earls sailed off. So the rules don't apply. > > The Antrim estate of the McDonalds comprised highland (Catholic) Scots of > various degrees of assimilation into Ireland. Ie the McDonalds had been > there from the mid 1500s. Several generations may have lived there for > generations. Some were newer. Randal McD. was required to settle lowland > Protestant farmers amongst his highlanders and so he did. Most of the Irish > who were there in 1550 were there in 1700 and later. Some were displaced, > all were 'downsized'. Down I have less info about. As usual the Irish were > pushed onto bad farming land -- highlands and bog. They were there today if > you drive around the Mts. of Mourne. > > On the McDonald estate the problem in 1630 would be figuring out who was > Irish and who was not. The highlanders spoke Gaelic and were Catholic like > the Irish. Frankly, loyality to the McDonalds were probably far more > important than who your father was. Of course people assimilated, one way > or another. > > Moving west to your area, the further west you go in Ulster, at any time, > the fewer settlers and the more Irish you had. The higher you go the same > is true because even Scots farmers can't grow much on rocks. > > Generally a man on a muster list in 1630 would not be Irish. They didn't > much like arming Irish because they tended to use the weapon against the > British. Just 11 years after 1630 the Irish would rise up, weapons or not, > and slaughter almost all the settlers. So they were right to fear. This is > not to say that the man hadn't manage to assimilate in British. The upper > classes probably did so the fastest because they were granted estates and > so had a lot to lose in an uprising. > > So you'll have to research the specifics of Loughinsholin at that time to > determine what estate he lived in and how well off he was and what happened > there during the settling of the Plantation and later on in 1641 and 2. Are > there names on the Muster lists of 1642, for example? Those are filmed and > the FHL. In this case the men were mustered to fight off a rebellion. So if > they're on them, most likely they were trusted (unless they were spies or > defected after mustering -- this occurred). > > It's important to understand that ethnicity is learned. Most of us have > the ability to learn. Ethnicity in the early 1600s in Ulster was very > fluid. There were many ethnicities. Now we look back and ask: PRotestant or > Catholic? Irish or Scots? Not like that then. If you doubt me read a few > history books. Bardon in his long history of Ulster details various stories > of ethnic confusion in 1642 and later -- as when apparently some tenants of > the McDonalds were slaughtered by Monroe. Why? they spoke Gaelic. McDonald > was not out in rebellion. Unfortunately Monroe's army was Campbell -- the > old enemy from Scotland. They were probably slaughtered for being > McDonalds. Even Scots politics was involved. > > What I am saying is additional research is required if you want to > approach the truth. Due to the paucity of records, you may never know if he > was a gallowglass (and by 1630 assimilated into the Irish nation) or a > Scots newcomer. Don't much matter. If your ancestors were in Ulster that > long and if you could trace them and all their wives' ancestors, you would > find every kind of person in Ulster. Many many more Irish gals than Irish > lads in Ulster after the defeat of the O'Neills. Lots of British soldiers > and settlers with no one to love. > > One thing to do is continue to collect DNA matches. You should find > (eventually) some matches in your area of Ireland, but you should be able > also to ID Scots 'near matches' or even matches. If those are in the > western Isles and western Scotland, you can assume they were either > gallowglass or McDonalds. If Dumfries, lowlanders. Unfortunately some > lowland clans did migrate to the lowlands, making it more difficult. If > only God had pasted them all in place!! > > In any case the history of the area should be of interest to you because > most likely, who ever was suffering was somehow related to you as was their > oppressor. > > Determining exactly where they were living also helps. Some townlands were > full of Irish. In the early days Irish were not allowed to live in the > towns (for the same reason no one wanted Apaches inside the fort). If they > lived on a townland that was part of a church estate, that was full of > Irish surnames, most likely Irish. The church was not required to evict > Irish, so it provided shelter (such as it was) to many. It's not hard to > spot one of these in the estate records. Some of the churchlands were > leased for very long periods (hundred years, etc), so it can be confusing > determining the history of a townland. Since people did need to get the > harvest in to avoid starving, the lessee, in one case I researched, and I > suspect, most cases, were happy to have additional tenants. > > What I can tell you about Dungannon and surrounds is that is mountainous > land and there were always lots of Irish there. It was difficult to attract > Scots or English (much was an English plantation). However many very Scots > towns grew up and many have detailed histories. In one case (Magherafelt?) > a history detailed everyone living in it, but no Irish. Blocks of Irish > were just indicated "Irish". Very distressing if you wanted to know which > Irish! The FHL has a huge collection of town, congregational, and parish > histories. > > Maybe someone has some additional insights? > > Hope this helps, > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Beal" <crbeal@gmail.com> > To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 12:31:10 AM > Subject: [S-I] Native Irish McLains? > > With a lot of luck and joint research with some DNA matches, I've been > able to trace my McLain line back to Ulster pre-1700. For a long time I > thought they were planters from Scotland but after exchanging emails with > Linda Merle, it seems they could have been native Irish. I did a little > more research and I'll add my findings. I was lucky enough to find the > family of brothers in 1660s parish records at St. Columb's in Londonderry > baptizing their children, these same men also appear on Tyrone's hearth > rolls in 1663 around Dungannnon (John McOlane, Andrew McClean, John > Mickline, Neall McLeane, and Patrick McGlaine). Londonderry's records > seems to add 2 more brothers/cousins: Archibald and William. > > Comparing the hearth rolls with the 1740 householders index, these exact > names repeat very much in Loughinsholin and the descendants of these > McLains seem to populate Magherafelt, Tamlaght O'Crilly, Kilrea, > Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan, Maghera, and Kellelagh through that period of > time. The only records I found earlier than these are the following: > > 1630 muster roll: John McClane, on Henry Conway's estate in Loughinsholin, > Londonderry > Summonisters roll: "Gilbert McCleene of Clogher" mentioned in Tyrone's > rolls in 1626. > > Would I be correct in assuming that John McClane is an Irish tenant on > the Londonderry plantation? Through all the turmoil of the 1600s, it seems > this family stays in Loughinsholin. I've read that Shane O'Neill's > gallowglass in 1560 were the Macleans of Duart who ventured to Ulster when > Shane married the cheiftain's daughter. They opposed Hugh O'Neil the Earl > of Tyrone as they were kinsmen to the MacShanes (Shane O'Neill's sons) and > had become powerful and influential people in Tir Eoghain, and eventually > known as "McEllanes". The "census of the fews", a 1602 pardon list from > Armagh gives the names of 2 kerns under Henry O'Neill: Owen Og McElane and > Allen McElane. > > It looks like evidence mounts for them to be considered native Irish but > then I come across things that throw me off like this Scottish baptismal: > *"Andro McKlein, father: Gilbert McKlein, Mar. 19, 1606, Dumfries"* > obviously two names that fit the above family and I'm not sure whether to > take it as coincidence or not. > > Any input would be greatly appreciated, Thank you! > > Chris Beal > * > * > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *________________________________________ * "If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger." - General George Washington, 1778 * * ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message