I was going to list my research findings for my ancestors on a website but I figured what better way than to just send them to this list and they'll be archived. These are compiled muster rolls, hearth rolls, parish records and miscellaneous records relating to McLeans (and all variants) in Ulster pre-1700. It's time-consuming to get a hold and find all this stuff so I wanted to make it easier for anyone doing the same. I've plotted out on maps McLeans in the 1660s hearth rolls and compared them with 1740 householders rolls and it showed several main settlements and populations that are likely of different backgrounds. I also took into account names that could be anglicized as McLean like Clan Ailin of Inishowen. Early records show McAllens as MacAileans and MacAllanes (which could be anglicized as McClean, etc) and it seems the "Mc" and "O" were interchangeable at one point. There seems to be the following principal 17th century settlements: 1. Kilmacrenan, Donegal: Possibly Tyrconnel's gallowglass 2. Londonderry city, Coleraine, Belfast : Likely merchant settlers from Scotland 3. N. Antrim (near Dunluce): Likely the redshanks brought by the MacDonnells 4. The Fews, Armagh: Possibly Tyrone's gallowglass 5. Raphoe, Donegal: Lowland settlers 6. E. Tyrone & Bann valley: My ancestors from Dumfries. At least four brothers came to Tyrone in the 1620s and settled on Lord Ochiltree's land north of Dungannon, by the 1740s, the family had spread out up past Magherafelt into the Bann valley. 1602 Pardon List: The Fews, Armagh --Soldiers under Henry McShane O'Neill Owen Og McElane, kern Allin McElan, kern James Boy O'Callane 1609 Pardon List: Inishowen area --Belligerents in O'Dougherty's rebellion Gilpatrick McAlline Gillagrome McAlline Owen McCallane Henrie Leine Edward Leyne Murtagh O'Lane Cale O'Lane Summonisters Rolls Gilbert M'Cleene of Clogher, Co. Tyrone, No 14, 1626 1630 Muster Rolls Roary McClene, Raphoe barony, Donegal John McClen, Raphoe barony, Donegal John McClane, Loughinsholin, Londonderry Ulster Army of 1642 (a.k.a. "Settler Army" or "Laggan Forces") Name-Regiment-Muster Date-Muster place McClean, John Maj. Houstone's Reg't, Apr 22, '42 Portaferry, Down McCallane, Wm. Capt. Shaw's Reg't, Jul 20 '42 Cumber, Down McCleene, Thos. Capt. Kennedy's Reg't, Jul 12, '42 Cumber, Down McCleene, John Capt. Kennedy's Reg't, Jul 12 '42 Cumber, Down McCleene, Thos (jr?) Capt. Kennedy's, Jul 12, '42 Cumber, Down McClen, Rory Capt. Stewart's Reg't, Aug 20 '42 Raphoe, Donegal McLynne, Rob't Lt. Col. Sanderson's Regt', Aug 20 '42 Raphoe, Donegal McClane, Thos. Sir Wm Stewart's reg't, Aug 20 '42 Ramelton, Donegal McClane, John Sir Wm Stewart's reg't, Aug 20 '42, Ramelton, Donegal McClane, John Capt. Erskine's reg't, Aug 20 '42, Newtowne, Donegal McCalleene, Jas. Capt. Cunningham's, Aug 20 '42, Newtowne, Donegal McCline, John Capt. Cunningham's reg't, Aug 20, '42, Newtowne, Donegal McCline, Alex. Sir Wm Stewart's Cavalry, Aug 20 '42 Newtowne, Donegal Macklane, Thos. Capt. Thornton's reg't, Aug 18 '43 Garrison of Londonderry City Hearth Money Rolls, 1660s McO'Leane, (unk.) Trummery, Magheramesk, Massereene, Antrim Leane, Alex. Trummery, Magheramesk, Massereene, Antrim McClenn, John, Kilcoan Mor, Island Magee, Belfast, Antrim McCleane, Rob't. Forth River, Shankill, Belfast, Antrim McLeane, Jas. Ballybanagh, Ballycor, Antrim U., Antrim McLeane, John Ballybanagh, Ballycor, Antrim U., Antrim McLeane, Thos. Ballybanagh, Ballycor, Antrim U., Antrim McLeane, widow Ballyhome, Dunluce, Dunluce L., Antrim McLean, Dushea Ballymacrea, Dunluce, Dunluce L., Antrim McLeane, Morphy Ballynaloob, Killagahn, Dunluce, U., Antrim McLeane, Neale Aghenehey, Porglenone, Toome L., Antrim McLaine, George Drumberg, Duneane, Toome U., Antrim McLaine, Edmund Glenconway, Bovevagh, Keenaght, Londonderry McLanie, Neal Begh, Maghera, Loughinsholin, Londonderry McOlane, John Lederg, Killyman, Tyrone McGlaine, Patrick Galcussagh, Desertcreat, Tyrone McLeane, Neall Skeanigarett, Desertcreat, Tyrone McKline, John Coolkill, Clonfeacle, Tyrone McClene, Stephen Mullycarnan, Clonfeacle, Tyrone McClean, Andrew Ballymenagh, Tullyniskan, Tyrone McClane, James Kilfoyle (?), Strabane, Tyrone McClean, John Killybegs, Bannagh, Donegal McCleane, John Clanlery, Kilmacrenan, Donegal McClean, Thomas Aghnish, Kilmacrenan, Donegal Mackline, Torlagh Dowish, Raphoe, Donegal McClean, Patrick Templemore, Inishowen, Donegal Register of Derry Cathedral (St. Columb's Church of Ireland) Jan 22, 1662 Marraige of Archiball M'Clene & Mary M'Cracken, wit: Wm M'Clene Dec 27, 1663 Bapt. of William M'Clene, s. Patrick Dec 27, 1663 Bapt. of John M'Clene, s. Archiball Mar 9, 1667 Bapt of Andrue McLane, s. John Feb 24, 1695 Bapt of Daniel McOlane, s. Daniel & Kath. Jun 16, 1695 Bapt. of John Leane, s. John Sept 1695 Burial of John Leane, s. John Dec 12, 1695 Burial of John McOlane, s. Daniel & Kath. Chris Beal ** * *

Linda, and all, I'm very glad that this subject has come up. Correct, Linda, presently there are no down stream SNP for M222+ The reason being, other than one which may be hasn't been discovered is: The sub-clade went through a bottleneck around mid-first millennium CE Bottlenecks (a term in description of a population kill off) tend to depress diversity among the haplotypes as the current descendants generally are descended from a very small pool of related survivors. This bottleneck was inferred in the Trinity Study and is represented by a bi-modality in haplotypes analysis and graphed as a double hump with-in their publication. William Howard's RCC analysis of the M222 results with-in the R1b1c7 (M222) Haplogroup project at the time of his analysis confirmed the bi-modality; his graphs also reproducing the double hump, but he could not explain or offer a reason as to why this phenomena existed. His analysis suggested that the SNP (M222) arose at least 900--1000 years (or even more) previous to the popular estimates. His estimates were not widely accepted as his method is proprietary and thus his analysis could not be reproduced by the hobbyists and others considering his publication. At that time the bottleneck was not being considered, either, and with the majority of M222 appearing so homogenous because of it, some analysts were considering that the clade was younger than even Trinity's study estimates. Howard may, however, be correct, but with-out further study and reproduction of his work, his conclusions stand neither confirmed nor denied. Dr. Anatole Klyosov, a renowned Russian Scientist (you my view his credentials on the web) now residing in the United States recently performed two important studies: 1 (one) regarding R1b in Ireland using the haplotypes out of Irish Heritage (2 years ago) and secondly (2) a recent analysis of Irish and Scottish lineages of the M222+ O'Dochartaigh and Amuligane (AKA the Doherty variously spelled and the Milligan variously spelled). This analysis confirmed the bottleneck and its approximate timing and pushed the common progenitor of these two genetically related groups back to 0 BC/CE before the bottleneck. The groups shortly thereafter went through their migrations and began to diverge. The study included approximately 31 haplotypes rather evenly divided between these two surname groups in both 37 & 67 marker result samplings. You may find the discussion regarding his findings in the M222 list at Rootsweb. AAK prefers analysis using both 67 & 111 marker haplotypes; however few have extended their results to 111 markers primarily due to FTDNA's ticket price to do so. Had he been able to analyze these groups at 111 markers as well, likely there would have turned up more information. To make it clear: the time of origin of the L21+ DF23" M222+ subclade has not been established. No one regardless of the popular belief that it arose in Ireland knows where or when it mutated. Now that the bottleneck is with in the scope of consideration, there is more credence to the possibility that it may have migrated into Ireland (and the Isles), but from where or by which tribe migration is yet unknown. Ireland was not the only environ that suffered environmentally, either...the Isles general and Europe also suffered during that mid first mil., thus uncovering an approximate origin date or place or with-in which migrating tribe(s) may not be possible; however more testing and research is necessary and it is too soon to count out any of the possibilities. Klyosov's R1b work, however, has suggested some R1b (& clades & sub-clades) time origin estimates and migrations across Europe. Some of his discussions may be found in the DNA Genealogy List at Rootsweb. A warning here, some of the discussions there may be a bit heated among the annalists, so, read for content and ignore the arguments beyond the substantive information offered. It has become clear that extension to 111 marker results has value beyond the paper trails; however, for those concerned only with their paper trails, indeed the value may not be readily apparent when matches at 37 or 67 are revealing a GD (genetic distance) of 3--7 away from others with-in their specific surname groups. With the cost of this extension, it is understandable why some would believe that 37 or 67 marker results under the scenario mentioned immediately above suits the purpose of individual inquiries simply to establish their paper trails which as Linda mentions end at best in the 1600's with anything previous to that a speculation which may be tentatively proved or disproved via DNA with the understanding that DNA will not tell any of us the relationships -- only that the genetic evidence of relatedness. As mentioned previously in this forum, the choice of "to up-grade or not to up-grade" depends upon the individual goals of the test subject or research manager; and to be fair, I once was in the camp that few matches at 37 or 67 justified no up-grades. Having gotten involved in the research, however, I have changed my tune, and I now am actively encouraging those in the L21 sub-clades (M222 being one of those) to SNP test and extend their haplotypes to at least 67 with a goal of further extension to 111 markers when possible. Mike Walsh of L21 haplogroup project in conjunction with the research of the WTY SNP testing have uncovered multiple SNP of L21+ which are successfully subdividing L21, the parent of most of the Irish, R1b's and those L21+ sub-clades in the Isles, general. The work of the L21+ is invaluable. You should also look forward to other research conducted and contributed in various publications by Klyosov. For the novice readers, some of his papers are somewhat technical; however unlike some who publish their work in scientific jargon (which for many of us is like Greek in our understanding of it), his work generally is presented in understandable common English to be digested by any who would choose to read his papers which are numerous. He is motivated and prolific; his work is reproducible and he examples calculations and methods for those conducting analysis to do so. Susan

Volume 1 http://books.google.com/books?id=AzVWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA356&lpg=PA356&dq=monaltry&source=bl&ots=2Pd_PYG9qs&sig=ho88i4W8qeBG7kiBdu-g4iUEy2g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iMQxT7zNFfPYiAK4xe2jCg&ved=0CFIQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=monaltry&f=false Volume 2 http://digital.nls.uk/genealogical-collections-concerning-families/pageturner.cfm?mode=gallery&id=74462246&sn=1 Les Tate

Hi folks, I'm going to share some results with you so you can see the benefit of paying for 111 testing, versus 67. For new folks, what I am talking about is DNA testing the Y chromosome at Family Tree DNA. With the lower number of locations tested, one tends to match many, many people. The latest testing is of 111 locations. It appears from our experience that it is worth paying for the additional testing IF you have a lot of matches even at 67 markers. This is often the case if your DNA type is M222+ (North west Irish). It's very common so everyone matches. To date I have not heard of any confirmed subtypes that could help differentiate and subdivide the group. People are actively looking for it. But I could be out of date, so if anyone can update me, please do. Our analysis was done by the admin of the Ulster Heritage DNA Project. At 67 markers we had many matches with many different surnames. This is not surprising since surnames of the Irish in Ulster probably start for most around 1650. 1607 or so for the very earliest. In central and western Ulster, due to only a few British, probably the fashion of fixed surnames didn't 'catch on' till after the Rising of 1641 was 'put down' and English rule became stronger. With 111 marker tested, our expert says that most certainly the family originated in Donegal. There are five separate Mag Congail families -- that still match. Anglicised spellings are McGonagill, McGonigle, MeGonnigal. They lived just west of Raphoe. The distance back to the most recent common ancestor would seem to put us at 1600, plus or minus a generation or so. They are paternally related to the Ó Dochartaigh 's. An earlier theory had been that they descended from the O'Cahan clan, but these findings make that unlikely. So now our man has to talk the Ó Dochartaigh families to upgrade to 111 markers. Still have other surnames: two McAdams Quinn, Taylor, and Brents, which our expert indicates are names assumed by people due to British influence, not a sept name. Also a Coyne . Most importantly, we can strike off various 67 marker matches that also upgraded to 111 and no longer match -- and so don't need researched for a common location or some helpful history. He concludes: "One thing is certain, sometime around 1600 your Mac Thomáis family and these Mag Congail families shared a paternal ancestor. He was native Irish, a Gael, Gaelic speaking and from Donegal." In the 1400s (if memory is still working), there were two bishops in the Raphoe area who used a similar name as patrynomics. It's pretty strange trying to conclude a book on these folks as I have to keep re-writing the final chapter.... once again. http://ulsterheritagedna.ulsterheritage.com/ . To test you go to www.familytreedna.com and either join the Ulster Heritage DNA project or a su rname project to get a discount. Later when the results come in you can join or unjoin as many projects as you want. You may not need 111 markers. We haven't got a 37 marker match for my dad. His DNA is very old Frisian (northern German ) DNA. I am told that's not surprising as all the collateral lines have died out. Maybe we were Doggerlanders. Linda Merle

I am a lurker on this list, but I learn a temendous amout by reading all of your posts. I very much enjoy your stories and comments. Your family is so colorful and full of rich history waiting for you to put it in book form..I love your sense of humor..Thank you for years of interesting and fun posts.. MJ LIke wild animals? Watch live cams in South Africa at www.wildearth.tv > > I once heard of a list admin who monitored every post and would reject them for spelling and grammar. Rather than fixing the problem he would return it like a grouchy third grade teacher to the poster for correction. Just hearing about it made my inner child shrink into fetal position. > > There were and probably are three Durham County, England lists. Many were thrown off the first list. I was too. It was run by one of the local genealogy experts. I was thrown off for heresy. I suggested that instead of paying much money for BMD certificates one could research the church records on microfilm at the FHL. I joined the second list, started by refugees from the first. Before long there was a third list, started by refugees from it. I unsubbed from all. > > Might need to start an Alt-Jackson list to promote peace and reconciliaton among Jacksons. You can evict the rude and nasty ones and spend much time policing <grin>! Though probably one needs to have some kind of mental complex to find this a pleasant way to spend time. > > I've learned a number of things adminning this list like no matter what you say or how you say it, someone will misunderstand. Sometimes one does mis-speak, out of temporary insanity, rage, stupidity -- and then you got to forgive yourself and move on. Luckily most people have short attention spans so unless the media gets involved no one recalls your past transgressions (except paranoid list admins and MI5 -- the FBI ignores all). > > I apparently have an actual Uncle Adolph. The German side of my mother's family seem to have a crazy gene as well as a few mean ones. We were disinherited when my great great grandmother married an Irishman (a Protestant Irish merchant) and later my mother had to enter through the servants' entrance. A few years ago some distant cousins manifested on the Internet claiming I had to get my version of the family history approved by Uncle Adolph in Kansas City, or I was in big trouble of some sort. Just what I wanted to hear: I had an Uncle Adolph and he was threatening me. We disinherited them this time around! They better not even try the servants' entrance (not that I have one). The fairies spilled the beans on them -- a manuscript fell off a shelf in a library in front of my mother and sister. It was a history of neighbors. It fell open to the page where the origins of my family was described. Of course this story of how I arrived at the family origin didn't impress Uncle Ad! > olph, who probably thought I was either crazy -- or Irish. > > Linda Merle

On 2/7/2012 3:00 AM, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > I've learned a number of things adminning this list like no matter what you say or how you say it, someone will misunderstand. Sometimes one does mis-speak, out of temporary insanity, rage, stupidity -- and then you got to forgive yourself and move on. Luckily most people have short attention spans so unless the media gets involved no one recalls your past transgressions (except paranoid list admins and MI5 -- the FBI ignores all). Not to belabor that, but, this is so true. The combination of the internet being primarily a faceless forum and intollerance (and my spell checker is telling me this is incorrectly spelled but isn't working at the moment for a correction) for others opinions and offerings have become the norm right, wrong or indifferent. It has become as bad when stopped in traffic behind a huge line waiting for the light to turn green and the creep behind decides to start honking as if anyone can change the situation. So annoying.

I once heard of a list admin who monitored every post and would reject them for spelling and grammar. Rather than fixing the problem he would return it like a grouchy third grade teacher to the poster for correction. Just hearing about it made my inner child shrink into fetal position. There were and probably are three Durham County, England lists. Many were thrown off the first list. I was too. It was run by one of the local genealogy experts. I was thrown off for heresy. I suggested that instead of paying much money for BMD certificates one could research the church records on microfilm at the FHL. I joined the second list, started by refugees from the first. Before long there was a third list, started by refugees from it. I unsubbed from all. Might need to start an Alt-Jackson list to promote peace and reconciliaton among Jacksons. You can evict the rude and nasty ones and spend much time policing <grin>! Though probably one needs to have some kind of mental complex to find this a pleasant way to spend time. I've learned a number of things adminning this list like no matter what you say or how you say it, someone will misunderstand. Sometimes one does mis-speak, out of temporary insanity, rage, stupidity -- and then you got to forgive yourself and move on. Luckily most people have short attention spans so unless the media gets involved no one recalls your past transgressions (except paranoid list admins and MI5 -- the FBI ignores all). I apparently have an actual Uncle Adolph. The German side of my mother's family seem to have a crazy gene as well as a few mean ones. We were disinherited when my great great grandmother married an Irishman (a Protestant Irish merchant) and later my mother had to enter through the servants' entrance. A few years ago some distant cousins manifested on the Internet claiming I had to get my version of the family history approved by Uncle Adolph in Kansas City, or I was in big trouble of some sort. Just what I wanted to hear: I had an Uncle Adolph and he was threatening me. We disinherited them this time around! They better not even try the servants' entrance (not that I have one). The fairies spilled the beans on them -- a manuscript fell off a shelf in a library in front of my mother and sister. It was a history of neighbors. It fell open to the page where the origins of my family was described. Of course this story of how I arrived at the family origin didn't impress Uncle Adolph, who probably thought I was either crazy -- or Irish. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 6 February, 2012 6:35:24 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] Nepotism as a tool in some family histories LOL...hasn't Genealogy become really ridiculous when you get blocked by something like that?? Next you'll be blocked for using a comma instead of a full stop! I presume the Jackson administrator's first name is Adolf!! Don't be disheartened, the important thing is that YOU are happy with your work... there are 'little Hitler's' everywhere!! DH On 06/02/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > I can see that I could have framed it better in the email describing the > link. The wording came as a result of trying to please the administrator > on the JACKSON sites. It came out kind of constipated as a result. Not > that it even worked. I am in Purgatory - again. He has decided to block > me for inappropriate posts - the same posts that I later sent to other > lists with no problems, kudos even. It is quite disheartening. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

LOL...hasn't Genealogy become really ridiculous when you get blocked by something like that?? Next you'll be blocked for using a comma instead of a full stop! I presume the Jackson administrator's first name is Adolf!! Don't be disheartened, the important thing is that YOU are happy with your work... there are 'little Hitler's' everywhere!! DH On 06/02/2012 08:00, scotch-irish-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > I can see that I could have framed it better in the email describing the > link. The wording came as a result of trying to please the administrator > on the JACKSON sites. It came out kind of constipated as a result. Not > that it even worked. I am in Purgatory - again. He has decided to block > me for inappropriate posts - the same posts that I later sent to other > lists with no problems, kudos even. It is quite disheartening.

Don't worry about it. Nepotism as until we became politically correct a perfectly normal way of doing business. I think that it was Jackie Fisher the head of the Royal Navy at its greatest in the early 20th Century who said that Nepotism was the secret of efficiency. Certainly in Ulster, well into the last century my family ran an organisation where nepotism ruled. It was efficient unlike the open organisation which succeeded it. Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Sharon Oddie Brown > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:35 AM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [S-I] Nepotism as a tool in some family histories > > Linde, I totally agree - but thought that I had addressed > that in the first paragraph, no? > > /Nepotism, particularly in business and government, is > regarded as a dodgy practice. Fair enough, but in the days > before the invention and installation of telegraph lines, it > was one of the more reliable ways to stay connected. Without > the feedback loop of today's communication networks, > businessmen needed the trust of both kith and kin to grease > the wheels of commerce.//The idea, let alone the reality, of > a digital village wasn't even a twinkle in the eyes of our > great-great-grandparents/ > > I can see that I could have framed it better in the email > describing the link. The wording came as a result of trying > to please the administrator on the JACKSON sites. It came out > kind of constipated as a result. Not that it even worked. I > am in Purgatory - again. He has decided to block me for > inappropriate posts - the same posts that I later sent to > other lists with no problems, kudos even. It is quite disheartening. > > By the way - is there any chance that you might be in the > deeds registry in the next bit? I have a couple of look-ups > that would be great to have. No problem if this doesn't work > for you. I am hoping to squeeze in a trip in the autumn. > Maybe, maybe. I'd like to get down to Kildare. > > Ta, > Sharon > Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: > http://www.thesilverbowl.com/ > > On 05/02/2012 2:27 PM, Lunney Family wrote: > > Hello Sharon > > > > many thanks for all your work on our mutual and possibly > unrecognized > > ancestors! always fun to check out your updates and read your blog. > > > > I want to point out something to you however; you use the term > > "nepotism", which for people today is definitely a pejorative term. > > For people from the north of Ireland, certainly in the > 18th and 19th > > centuries, and even up to the twentieth century, there was nothing > > wrong with drawing on kinship connections to find staff or to make > > business connections, and of course we have to acknowledge that > > marriages within a kin group were perfectly acceptable and even > > preferred in some areas and some families. (mine for > instance!) If > > you think about it; in a system before there was any dependence on > > examinations and qualifications, how would you decide who to employ? > > especially if you were based in Hong Kong, several months away from > > Ireland. If you picked the wrong employee, waited for him > to arrive, > > tried him out for several months and then had to wait > several months > > for a replacement, life was very difficult indeed. As my > family used > > to say about marrying relatives, in that circumstance you knew what > > you were getting. If you opted to call for a family member, > you had at > > least some hope of having a congenial companion in your > exile; someone > > you could talk to about home and family in Antrim. So for > people from > > Ireland, it was perfectly acceptable to use kinship connections to > > fill posts. > > > > I know you and most of the readers on these lists will understand > > these customs and mores; it's just the use of the word "nepotism" > > which might give the wrong impression to readers > > > > best wishes > > Linde Lunney > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Apologies. My recent response to Linde went out to the whole group. It was intended as a reply just to her, and included a paragraph that I regret going public. It was a personal issue not pertinent to this list. Sharon Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: http://www.thesilverbowl.com/

Hello Sharon many thanks for all your work on our mutual and possibly unrecognized ancestors! always fun to check out your updates and read your blog. I want to point out something to you however; you use the term "nepotism", which for people today is definitely a pejorative term. For people from the north of Ireland, certainly in the 18th and 19th centuries, and even up to the twentieth century, there was nothing wrong with drawing on kinship connections to find staff or to make business connections, and of course we have to acknowledge that marriages within a kin group were perfectly acceptable and even preferred in some areas and some families. (mine for instance!) If you think about it; in a system before there was any dependence on examinations and qualifications, how would you decide who to employ? especially if you were based in Hong Kong, several months away from Ireland. If you picked the wrong employee, waited for him to arrive, tried him out for several months and then had to wait several months for a replacement, life was very difficult indeed. As my family used to say about marrying relatives, in that circumstance you knew what you were getting. If you opted to call for a family member, you had at least some hope of having a congenial companion in your exile; someone you could talk to about home and family in Antrim. So for people from Ireland, it was perfectly acceptable to use kinship connections to fill posts. I know you and most of the readers on these lists will understand these customs and mores; it's just the use of the word "nepotism" which might give the wrong impression to readers best wishes Linde Lunney

Linde, I totally agree - but thought that I had addressed that in the first paragraph, no? /Nepotism, particularly in business and government, is regarded as a dodgy practice. Fair enough, but in the days before the invention and installation of telegraph lines, it was one of the more reliable ways to stay connected. Without the feedback loop of today's communication networks, businessmen needed the trust of both kith and kin to grease the wheels of commerce.//The idea, let alone the reality, of a digital village wasn't even a twinkle in the eyes of our great-great-grandparents/ I can see that I could have framed it better in the email describing the link. The wording came as a result of trying to please the administrator on the JACKSON sites. It came out kind of constipated as a result. Not that it even worked. I am in Purgatory - again. He has decided to block me for inappropriate posts - the same posts that I later sent to other lists with no problems, kudos even. It is quite disheartening. By the way - is there any chance that you might be in the deeds registry in the next bit? I have a couple of look-ups that would be great to have. No problem if this doesn't work for you. I am hoping to squeeze in a trip in the autumn. Maybe, maybe. I'd like to get down to Kildare. Ta, Sharon Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: http://www.thesilverbowl.com/ On 05/02/2012 2:27 PM, Lunney Family wrote: > Hello Sharon > > many thanks for all your work on our mutual and possibly unrecognized > ancestors! always fun to check out your updates and read your blog. > > I want to point out something to you however; you use the term > "nepotism", which for people today is definitely a pejorative term. > For people from the north of Ireland, certainly in the 18th and 19th > centuries, and even up to the twentieth century, there was nothing > wrong with drawing on kinship connections to find staff or to make > business connections, and of course we have to acknowledge that > marriages within a kin group were perfectly acceptable and even > preferred in some areas and some families. (mine for instance!) If > you think about it; in a system before there was any dependence on > examinations and qualifications, how would you decide who to employ? > especially if you were based in Hong Kong, several months away from > Ireland. If you picked the wrong employee, waited for him to arrive, > tried him out for several months and then had to wait several months > for a replacement, life was very difficult indeed. As my family used > to say about marrying relatives, in that circumstance you knew what > you were getting. If you opted to call for a family member, you had > at least some hope of having a congenial companion in your exile; > someone you could talk to about home and family in Antrim. So for > people from Ireland, it was perfectly acceptable to use kinship > connections to fill posts. > > I know you and most of the readers on these lists will understand > these customs and mores; it's just the use of the word "nepotism" > which might give the wrong impression to readers > > best wishes > Linde Lunney > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have recently posted a piece to my blog site about nepotism in the global merchant community in the 18th & 19th centuries. In this piece, I also look at how this practice shaped how Thomas Jackson (1841-1915) - an Irish Presbyterian from South Armagh - conducted banking in Hong Kong. Understanding this helps us to better understand aspects of merchant-related family histories. I am sharing this with several Irish Rootsweb lists because there were many other global bankers or merchants from many of the counties of Ireland - not just JACKSONs. Many of these men and their families emigrated to America. Understanding this practice of nepotism helps us to know where to look next to find some of their more elusive family members: SEE: http://sharonoddiebrown.blogspot.com/2012/02/nepotism-yea-or-nay.html Another post that I did a few days earlier is also pertinent to Thomas JACKSON because one of his parents was Episcopalian, and one was Presbyterian. Understanding some of the complications surrounding the legalities of /irregular marriages/ impacts where researchers today might want to look for their records. SEE: http://sharonoddiebrown.blogspot.com/2012/01/couple-of-unchurched-olivers.html One person on one list recently noted that I use hyperlinks to refer readers to the material that I share, rather than pasting the material directly within the email. I had never heard that this presented any problem, but in case it does, I thought that it might help if explained why: * I often like to include visual images, which don't work in rootsweb lists. * The length of the pieces works best in other formats, either web or blog. Most of my transcriptions and articles are too long for emails - one of them is over 300 pages in length. * If I make a mistake, as I am prone to do, I can readily correct it, so old mistakes don't hang around and mislead others. * If anyone is concerned that I may be making money from this, I am not. My web site has no ads or revenue stream connected to it - it is all offered as freely as it would be on rootsweb lists. If any members of this list can suggest better ways to share such material, I am always keen to learn. As always, please let me know if you find this email helpful, or if errors need correcting in any of the posted material, and/or whether you have more to add. I don't send out notices of all the research that I post to my website: The Silver Bowl, but you can always find the most recent postings at: http://www.thesilverbowl.com/misc/whatsnew.htm Enjoy, Sharon Oddie Brown -- Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: www.thesilverbowl.com -- Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: www.thesilverbowl.com

The Irish had been going to Canada for centuries before what is called official emigration started...The first record of a Waterford ship on the Grand Banks in Newfoundland dates back as far as 1534. http://www.inp.ie/?q=history_j Wonder how many of these Irish 'forgot' to return home!!

Sean, Sorry to be so long in looking: I did not find either FEE or ROCHE in the Index of Irish Immigrants in the Land of Canaan. Hugh On Jan 31, 2012, at 5:14 PM, sean roche wrote: > > HI, > > I would be very interested in buying a copy of this book if it included any of my ancestors names - I know they went somewhere ??? > >> From Ulster the surname of interest would be FEE, and from the West of Ireland/Galway I am looking for the ROCHE surname. > > REGARDS, > > SEAN > > > > >> From: rglindsay@comcast.net >> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com >> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:26:31 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >> >> Hello List: >> >> Page three of "IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN" refers to a David >> Lindsey and a letter he wrote from County Tyrone in 1758 to his Fleming >> cousins in Pennsylvania (really New Jersey). Accumulated evidence suggests >> that this man is my gggGrandfather David Lindsay. >> >> Because I (after much looking) was unable to initiate a new thread, I'm >> adding this post in reply form. If this County Tyrone David Lindsey (or you >> may be a descendent of Malcolm Fleming) is perhaps of interest to you, let >> me know as I have 'stuff' to share! >> >> Linda, the "Start a new thread" instructions are: To post a new message on >> any board, click on the "Begin New Thread" link in the upper portion of the >> screen. This can be done at the home page of any board or when viewing a >> specific message on a board. >> >> I simply could not follow these instructions . . . send help! >> >> Bob Lindsay >> >> Email Checked by Norton >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Hugh Nevin >> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:24 AM >> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >> >> Hello Tom, >> >> The book is IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE LAND OF CANAAN: LETTERS AND MEMOIRS >> FROM COLONIAL AND REVOLUTIONARY AMERICA, 1675-1815. It is written and >> edited by Kerby A. Miller, Arnold Schrier, Bruce D. Boling, and David N. >> Doyle. Oxford University Press published it in 2003. >> >> Perhaps the best brief description of the book is in this Preface paragraph: >> "Each of the book's chapters focuses on one or more specific immigrants and >> on the documents they wrote or dictated. Thus, the chapters constitute a >> series of historical essays, each can stand alone, but together they >> represent at once the disparate character, the common themes, and the >> mosaiclike texture of early Irish migration." >> >> I did not find Spier/Speer in the Index. >> >> Regards, >> >> Hugh >> >> On Jan 22, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Tom Speer wrote: >> >>> Hugh, >>> I am trying to trace the origin of a gggrandfather William Speer whose >>> tombstone in Donegal gives his date of birth as 1781and age 84 years. He >>> was a presbyterian who lived at Ballyboencuragh on the Ramelton road from >>> Letterkenny. An 1847 survey of the then Manor Grove Estate shows a William >>> Spier Sen. (and a William Spier Jun.) as tenants of part of >> Ballyboencuragh. >>> I should appreciate details of the book to which you refer as it seems >>> relevant. Thank you and kind regards. >>> Tom Speer >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Hugh Nevin" <hnevin@nycap.rr.com> >>> To: <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 3:50 PM >>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >>> >>> >>>> Joe and Linda, >>>> >>>> I happened to be online as Linda's reply came in. I've just looked >>>> quickly at the County Donegal listings in the Index of Irish Immigrants. >>>> I didn't see the specific phrase. Of the two references that caught my >>>> eye, the following (p. 107) seems a possible reference: "By at least the >>>> 1720s the fertile parishes of east Donegal,...were a major source of >>>> Presbyterian emigration that continued and perhaps accelerated after the >>>> American Revolution." >>>> >>>> Hugh Nevin >>>> >>>> On Jan 21, 2012, at 10:07 AM, lmerle@comcast.net wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, actually it is from that book. I am busy and cannot promise you >>>>> that I will find the time to research this for you. Perhaps try again. >>>>> Google books is not likely to be useful for searching a book that is in >>>>> copyright. The traditional way -- reading the book -- or using the index >>>>> may help and if I get some time, I will try the index. >>>>> >>>>> Linda Merle >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe Flock" <joe.flock@yahoo.com> >>>>> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com >>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 6:04:17 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American etc letter >>>>> >>>>> Hi Linda, >>>>> >>>>> Is this in Emigrants and Exiles? Do have the page reference or even the >>>>> exact phrase? I have the book and have searched it several times but >>>>> can't find this quote. I even tried using Google books to search it then >>>>> reading the paper pages for the ones Google isn't displaying and still >> no >>>>> luck. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joseph Flock III >>>>> >>>>> Linda wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Besides all that, Kirby Miller says in his book on Irish emigration that >>>>> Donegal lost much of its population long before the (recent) Potato >>>>> Famine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear List: Perhaps I can provide some help with what I think know about this letter. Elisha M. Fleming of Belvidere, originally in Pennsylvania; Sussex and now Warren County, NJ found this letter (ca 1880's) in his barn in a box of old papers preserved by his father. The Fleming cousins referred to were citizens of now Warren, Sussex; and Hunterdon Counties, NJ. These cousins (brothers all) followed their elder brother Samuel (founder Flemington, NJ) and mother (now) Martha Biggers to the NJ area. It is believed that David Lindsey's mother was the Fleming brother's aunt, she being a daughter of the deceased Malcolm Fleming. It is understood that Malcolm resided in Tullywiggin, Derryloran Parish, and County Tyrone. Malcolm Fleming's family was from Largs, Scotland and settled in the Cookstown area ca 1643. A David Lindsay is found in the Sussex County Court records, May Term, 1769 wherein he petitions the court to issue a "Licens to Keep a Public House Where he now lives, it being a public House for many years, . . . ". Another document of that time show petitioners David Lindsay and Andrew Fleming, et al on the same document. We can postulate that David Lindsay/Lindsey did indeed find his Fleming cousins. Research suggests this David Lindsey/Lindsay migrated to present day Fayette County, PA and later to present Harrison County, KY. Original family bible records (in possession of David Lindsey Wilcox) indicate that David's wife was named Rebekah and the mother of his offspring. No known source for the much-publicized report that a Mary Fleming was his wife! David Lindsay was a Westmoreland County, PA 1st Lt. during the Revolutionary War. For evidence of his reputation, he retained several community/county offices during his PA and Ky years. David Lindsey wrote the letter at age 18 having visions of coming to the USA for "the good bargains of lands". He was a Scotch-Irishman who came, fought for his adopted country, and helped settle the early frontiers of our lands. He died in 1814, age 74, presumably on his farm north of Cynthiana, KY. He is buried there in the "Lindsey Cemetery", a small-unkept plot of ground on his original property. The source of this posting is partially taken from the publication: Family Genealogy Author: Publins Lawson Call Number: CS71.L425 This book contains the history of the Fleming and Lawson families of New Jersey. Bibliographic Information: Lawson, Publins. Family Genealogy. Privately Published. Menasha, Wis. 1903. Other sources include Ted Lindsay; Susan Grabek; David Lindsey Wilcox; and forgotten others, who are all to be thanked. Email Checked by Norton -----Original Message----- From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of D H Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 1:40 PM To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] Thoughts on replying to an American letter etc... Document ID 9307016 Date 19-03-1758 Document Type Letters (Other) Archive Public Record Office, Northern Ireland Citation David Lindsey, Tyrone, to Thomas or Andrew Fleming, Pennsylvania.; PRONI D3561/; CMSIED 9307016 Papers of Prof. E.R.R. Green (Copies of emigrant letters collected by and sent to E.R.R. Green as part of his research project on emigration) Deposited by Dr. P.R. Green Letter dated "March ye 19th, 1758". From David Lindsey of County Tyrone, Northern Ireland to Thomas *Fleming* or Andrew *Fleming*, Pennslyvania. March ye 19th, 1758 Dr.[Dear?] Cusen [Cousin?] I had upertunity [opportunity?] of reading your letter that was sent to your father-in-law, which gave me great satisfaction to here [hear?] you were all in goodhealth and fortuned so well as to be possessed in so good a bargain of lands. We are all in good health. I bless God for all his mercies, and yr. [your?] uncle David is helthy[healthy?] and harty [hearty?], and all do join in our love and compliments to you and your families and enquiring friends. I expected account oftener from you, only times being troublesome in that country with wars that we were assured that you were all ded [dead?] or killed. The good bargains of your lands in that country doe [do?] greatly encourage me to pluck up my spirits and make Redie [ready?] for the Journey, for we are now oppressed with our lands at 8s per acre and other improvements, cutting our land in two-acre parts, and Quicking, and only two years' time for doing it all [--?] ye, we cannot stand more. I expected a letter from you more oftener, or that cusen [cousin?] Wm. [William?] *Fleming* would come over before this time; but these things does not Discourage me to goe [go?], only we depend on ye [you?] for Derections [directions?] in the goods fitting to take to that place. I had disappointment of 20s worth of Lining [linen?] clothye [cloth?] I sold, and had James Hoskins' bond for the money. The merchant ran away, and I had great truble [trouble?] in getting my money, so that was deleavered[delivered?]. Brother John *Fleming* is dead, and brother James Lindsey is married again to one Hoskins, and his son Robert has service to his uncle, James Martin, and desires to know if he will redeem him if he goes over there. He is a good favour and is willing to work for his passage till it's paid. #PAGE 2 Your Cusen [cousin?] in Desert master [martin?] is all in health. Cusen [cousin?] Mary to let you know that all my father's family is in helth [health?] and joins in ye love to ye. My father is very far spent, and I expect to see him buried before I leave the place. Your father and my uncle Andrew is but tender in helth [health?]. Sarah Rickets desires to be remembered in her love to her sister Nelly and other friends. Our living is dear in this place. I conclude with my love to you and all friends there. I am yours till death. David Lindsey. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For "radiological" read "archaeological" Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Edward Andrews > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:58 PM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [S-I] Fwd: Re: Thoughts on replying to an > American letter etc... > > Prof E.R.R. Green was an academic at Queens (University > Belfast) who pioneered a lot of industrial radiological work. > He was known at Queens in the 1960s as "Lagan Valley Green" > after his 1949 work, the Lagan Valley river flows through > Belfast, not to be confused with the Laggan in Donegal. > (Until I checked I hadn't realised that it was that old.) > ISTR that his son gave a lot of his papers to the PRO Green > edited the first edition of Essays in Scotch-Irish History. > So presumably the letter comes from that time and there may > be something about it in the book (Google Amazon) The letter > mentions Desertmartin, which is in Co London/derry, so it is > not unlikely that we are talking about North Tyrone. > Edward > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of D H > > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:43 PM > > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [S-I] Fwd: Re: Thoughts on replying to an American letter > > etc... > > > > Just what is in the letter; Deposited by Dr. P.R. Green > > Letter > > dated "March ye 19th, 1758". From David Lindsey of County Tyrone, > > > Northern Ireland to Thomas *Fleming* or Andrew *Fleming*, > > Pennslyvania. > March > ye 19th, 1758 > > > > > > > Haven't a clue as to who went where, my Fleming connections > were mid > > 1800's in Tyrone, sorry. > > > > DH > > _________________ > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for the nice note David. It was very interesting. > > Can you pinpoint a date when it might hae been written? Did David > > Lindsey come over to the USA later.? He sound like he > surely wanted to > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Prof E.R.R. Green was an academic at Queens (University Belfast) who pioneered a lot of industrial radiological work. He was known at Queens in the 1960s as "Lagan Valley Green" after his 1949 work, the Lagan Valley river flows through Belfast, not to be confused with the Laggan in Donegal. (Until I checked I hadn't realised that it was that old.) ISTR that his son gave a lot of his papers to the PRO Green edited the first edition of Essays in Scotch-Irish History. So presumably the letter comes from that time and there may be something about it in the book (Google Amazon) The letter mentions Desertmartin, which is in Co London/derry, so it is not unlikely that we are talking about North Tyrone. Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of D H > Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 10:43 PM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: [S-I] Fwd: Re: Thoughts on replying to an American > letter etc... > > Just what is in the letter; Deposited by Dr. P.R. Green > > > Letter dated "March ye 19th, 1758". From David Lindsey of > County Tyrone, > Northern Ireland to Thomas *Fleming* or > Andrew *Fleming*, Pennslyvania. > March > ye 19th, 1758 > > > > Haven't a clue as to who went where, my Fleming connections > were mid 1800's in Tyrone, sorry. > > DH > _________________ > > > > > Thank you for the nice note David. It was very interesting. > Can you pinpoint a date when it might hae been written? Did > David Lindsey come over to the > USA later.? He sound like he surely wanted to > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just what is in the letter; Deposited by Dr. P.R. Green > > Letter dated "March ye 19th, 1758". From David Lindsey of County Tyrone, > Northern Ireland to Thomas *Fleming* or Andrew *Fleming*, Pennslyvania. > March > ye 19th, 1758 > Haven't a clue as to who went where, my Fleming connections were mid 1800's in Tyrone, sorry. DH _________________ Thank you for the nice note David. It was very interesting. Can you pinpoint a date when it might hae been written? Did David Lindsey come over to the USA later.? He sound like he surely wanted to

Fleming - Killed in a skirmish with a band of guerillas,on the 8th August, 1864 near Fairfax Station, Virginia, Captain James Fleming, 16th Regiment N.Y. Cavalry, son of Malcolm Fleming, The Nursery, Larne, aged 32 years.