I didn't know that. Another tool for the kit bag of research. Thanks Linde, Sharon Sharon Oddie Brown, Roberts Creek, BC, Canada. History Project: http://www.thesilverbowl.com/ On 10/02/2012 7:32 AM, Lunney Family wrote: > There might be other small points of interest; I was > looking at an 1808 deed yesterday re the small town of Portglenone, > co. Antrim; the property extended to a "line of gooseberry bushes"! > And another deed specified that the property was "commonly known by > the name Roughpark and Fourthpark"; these names go back most likely > to the enclosure of fields in the ?late seventeenth century?, but > even more interestingly, the "fourth" refers to a rath or a dun, > dating from the Iron Age, and thus might provide a clue to locate the > property on a modern or 19th c. map.

On Feb 9, 2012, at 9:47 PM, lmerle@comcast.net wrote: > > The way one figures out who the immediate lessee was is to check Griffiths and then trace that man (and his landlord) back in time. Griffiths is NOT too late. Griffiths is important to us all. If you can't learn to use records in Ireland created after your ancestor left, you can't do very much Irish genealogy. Learning to use 19th century records to find 18th century Irishmen is a key skill. For example: Mullin's Families of Ballyrashane (North Antrim) references an 1859 transfer of land rights which were first of family record (discounting their initial transfer from the Earl of Antrim in 1735) with indentures involving my Nevin ancestor in 1763. He crossed to America in 1786, at which time another set of Memorials in the Registry of Deeds shows the leases being passed to the grandfather of the local family member receiving them in 1859. Strong presumption: since the 1763 indentures only became a matter of record in 1786, this was likely done to insure the rights of the receiver at that time. Enter Griffiths: in 1860 there is a record of a subleasing of the lands by the 1859 recipient, complete with a map of the townland showing their location therein, something otherwise unavailable as the original maps of 1763 were with the indentures; the Memorials in the Registry of Deeds only indicate that they existed. Today, using Google Maps, I can look at the photo of that townland and see the same outline of fields that existed in 1763. Big disclaimer: all of this evidence is only circumstantial; still, it leaves me feeling reasonably close to what appears likely to have happened. Hugh Nevin

We now call those guys who never arrived 'land speculators' <grin>. They're not a recent invention. I was googling for Desertcreat, etc, after discovering your parishes don't overlap the ones I have history on in Tyrone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertcreat is pretty useful. PRONI also has a list of townlands: http://applications.proni.gov.uk/geogindx/parishes/par091.htm The Placename project may have some history. This site has some Griffiths info including immediate lessor: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tyrone/parishes/griffiths/desertcreat/annaghmore.html Looking at these you see Andy Mulholland was a Big Guy. You didn't want to piss him off or you might have to emigrate to America! Lots of names of the local Irish tribes: Hagen, Henry (O"Cahans), Mulholland, etc. On BALLYNACROY you have GREER, Thomas In Fee (Owner) Meaning Thomas owned it, flat out. Someone wrote a book on how to interpret Griffiths. It's not a thick book, but it does enable you to squeeze lots of info out. Note how there are different surnames on different townlands. Notice how many different immediate lessors there are. As people rented directly from them, they wre the landlord and he kept the rent records, or his agent did. GENUKI is very good: http://www.genuki.eu/TYR/Place668.htm It has the whole history. NICE map here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tyrone/parishes/tl/desertcreat_tl.html Note here that desertcreat is included in a Lindsay estate: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tyrone/estates/national-library.html Googling Lindsay estate Tyrone, I find this page: http://www.doclindsay.com/letter_from_ireland/OLD_geography%20and%20chronology.htm This is of course totally different from everything I wrote before, but you can do a lot on the Internet these days! This looks like the same estate: http://www.cotyroneireland.com/estates/lindsayestate.html Probably only some townlands in Desartcreat were in the Lindsay estate. Knowing the Lindsay estate was also called the Loughry estate, I found this: http://www.ancestryireland.com/database.php?filename=db_estate_papers_lindesay_tyrone Names of tenants on the estate of the Lindesays of Loughry near Cookstown, County Tyrone. Source: National Library of Ireland, Ms 5204 Lets you search for names but gotta join. Possibly MS 5204 is in the FHL and can be ordered on microfilm. Hard to figure it out..or remember how you did it last time. There was also an index to these manscripts published in the late 1990s.... Here's a history of the Lindsay estate back into the 1600s: http://www.cafre.ac.uk/index/information-for/past-students/centenary-celebrations/history-of-loughry.htm " The Loughry Estate dates back to 1611 when the land around Loughry was granted to Robert Lindesay by King James 1. The estate remained with the Lindesay family until 1908 when the then Ministry of Agriculture and Technical Instruction purchased the property and established The Ulster Dairy School for girls to study dairying and poultry-keeping courses" So only the Lindsays to track down. That's how us lazy people get a jump up on the scholars toiling away in the library stacks <grin>. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, 9 February, 2012 9:36:33 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery, Hamilton, McDonald plantations Well your last sentence certainly is true! I know even some of the Undertakers didn't even arrive or take up the land... Tullyniskan, Desertcreat, and Killyman in Tyrone are areas where I also need to find about, so like you, I'd be inclined to believe it points to a Scottish descent, he became Rector of Tullanisken/Desertcreat in 1614, appointed via Trinity College, so I can check that out next time I'm in Dublin. His son got 1000 acres there in 1840's from Lord Castlestewart. Boy did they move around...followed them over time through six counties so far...not to mention USA, Australia etc. Your reply is what I thought and expected but no harm in asking just in case! Again, thank you. Re: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery,Hamilton, McDonald plantations /Date:/ Thu, 9 Feb 2012 19:59:55 -0500 /References:/ <4F344A02.4010804@utvinternet.com> /In-Reply-To:/ <4F344A02.4010804@utvinternet.com> DH, I don't believe any rent books of tenants survive pre-1700, and even at that time it's pretty sparse. The only thing recording "who got what" was acreages to the big undertakers that were to bring planters. I was only able to put two and two together regarding my ancestors on Lord Ochiltree's (Andrew Stewart's) land because they have many farms in the hearth rolls around Tullyniskan, Desertcreat, and Killyman in Tyrone. Stewart was from Ayrshire and recruited a lot of planters in Dumfries & Galloway where my ancestors were from, so there's really no actual link besides that. The earliest records of some of the McLain brothers were actually on English land (Clogher, Tyrone in 1626 and Bellaghy, L'Derry in 1630) which just goes to show you how much moving around there was and also reinforces what Leyburn said in his book "The Scotch-Irish: A Social History", that tenants were not loyal to one estate. Clearly there was a lack of Englishmen for the amount of land that were in the hands of English undertakers. A lot of English packed up and went home as they weren't made out for this rough frontier life. I believe Londonerry (planted by the London companies) became almost wholly Scotch in character by the 1640s. I believe a lot of Scottish merchants trading in Coleraine/Londonderry/Belfast would have been inundated with advertisements for cheap land throughout Ulster and would have had their pick. There was a strict plan for who got what, but really after 1620, anyone could have ended up anywhere. Chris ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Very welcome! Have you checked "Alumni Dublienses"? Maybe that's what you meant by Dublin, what's your ancestor's name? I have some photocopied pages of E and M surnames that I found for my line, but I'm not sure if that volume goes back to the 1600s. Chris Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: D H <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> Sender: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:36:33 To: <SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery, Hamilton, McDonald plantations Well your last sentence certainly is true! I know even some of the Undertakers didn't even arrive or take up the land... Tullyniskan, Desertcreat, and Killyman in Tyrone are areas where I also need to find about, so like you, I'd be inclined to believe it points to a Scottish descent, he became Rector of Tullanisken/Desertcreat in 1614, appointed via Trinity College, so I can check that out next time I'm in Dublin. His son got 1000 acres there in 1840's from Lord Castlestewart. Boy did they move around...followed them over time through six counties so far...not to mention USA, Australia etc. Your reply is what I thought and expected but no harm in asking just in case! Again, thank you. Re: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery,Hamilton, McDonald plantations /Date:/ Thu, 9 Feb 2012 19:59:55 -0500 /References:/ <4F344A02.4010804@utvinternet.com> /In-Reply-To:/ <4F344A02.4010804@utvinternet.com> DH, I don't believe any rent books of tenants survive pre-1700, and even at that time it's pretty sparse. The only thing recording "who got what" was acreages to the big undertakers that were to bring planters. I was only able to put two and two together regarding my ancestors on Lord Ochiltree's (Andrew Stewart's) land because they have many farms in the hearth rolls around Tullyniskan, Desertcreat, and Killyman in Tyrone. Stewart was from Ayrshire and recruited a lot of planters in Dumfries & Galloway where my ancestors were from, so there's really no actual link besides that. The earliest records of some of the McLain brothers were actually on English land (Clogher, Tyrone in 1626 and Bellaghy, L'Derry in 1630) which just goes to show you how much moving around there was and also reinforces what Leyburn said in his book "The Scotch-Irish: A Social History", that tenants were not loyal to one estate. Clearly there was a lack of Englishmen for the amount of land that were in the hands of English undertakers. A lot of English packed up and went home as they weren't made out for this rough frontier life. I believe Londonerry (planted by the London companies) became almost wholly Scotch in character by the 1640s. I believe a lot of Scottish merchants trading in Coleraine/Londonderry/Belfast would have been inundated with advertisements for cheap land throughout Ulster and would have had their pick. There was a strict plan for who got what, but really after 1620, anyone could have ended up anywhere. Chris ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yup, it's kinda like shaking up a bee hive <grin>. Makes you feel sorry for those who tried to govern us without asking, don't it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Extant" <extant@wntbd.info> To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, 9 February, 2012 6:18:31 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries I intended to send the recipe to the Scottish-Irish-Food list, but was a bit distracted and clicked on the wrong address. I didn't even realize it had gone to the wrong list until the responses started coming in. I do hope this will die down soon so we can get back to the business of genealogy. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, > What I need are just plain >Ledger entries recording who originally got land, why/when....Day 1 stuff. >It probably doesn't exist. If it was that easy, would we be here suffering? <grin>. Generally, the earlier you go the worse the record keeping. Secondly, these things were not organized like now. It was hierachical. If you check the McDonnell deeds, you see there are handful made to his primary tenents. Wow, was this every disappointing to me. His tenants then rented smaller tracts to others, who might in turn have rented to other people. The names of the actual farmers and weavers (who farmed as well), etc, those were never in the McDonnell rent rolls or the names of his major tenants. Their rental records were in the hands of the guy they rented from, called the immediate lessee. Some estates had a high degree of stratification and some only few middle men. It's impossible to come up with a list of all the people living somewhere at some time using land records. The smallest tenants, who rented 'at will', had no contract any more than a tenant at will has one today. Maybe a good administrator kept records but frankly there weren't very many good administrators and few survive if there were. You don't know who the immediate lessee was so you don't know whose records to try to find. You can't find them using a 'top down' methodology. that's why we do Irish estate research by identifying the townland of origin first, then we figure out who the immediate lessee was and what estate. Griffiths generally tells us that. When the estates were broken up in the late 1800s, many landlords deposited land records. Where? Where ever they wanted. Some in PRONI. Some in the Irish National Archives in Dublin. Some took them back to England. They might be in a county library somewhere. Sometimes records burnt up with the big house. Some are still in the hands of the landlords. The way one figures out who the immediate lessee was is to check Griffiths and then trace that man (and his landlord) back in time. Griffiths is NOT too late. Griffiths is important to us all. If you can't learn to use records in Ireland created after your ancestor left, you can't do very much Irish genealogy. Learning to use 19th century records to find 18th century Irishmen is a key skill. Thinking otherwise means one thing: You haven't read the material on how to do Irish estate research. So you can't succeed because you make wrong assumptions like that Griffiths is 'too late'. The FHL has a great guide to Irish estate records. It's also explained in books like Betit's and also Falley. Another place to check, that I forgot to mention, is the deeds. These are microfilmed and in the FHL. They're poorly indexed and generally very very hard to use. They're the last place you check. Sometimes tenants are mentioned, but it's a long shot. The impossibility of using land records to id who was living some place is why we resort to muster lists and such. Irish genealogy is done by: 1. Figuring out where the target lived. To do this you often use records made much later than your target lived. Don't matter, it's a fuzzy search. You use other clues you've found to identify a place to start. Maybe you have several places of interest. 2. Then you drill down, identifying ideally the townlands where the surname is found and research the parish and townland's history. This'll tell you what estate the townland was in. 3. Research estate records. I was very depressed to be told in a class that with Irish genealogy you must spend a third of your time figuring out what records exist, a third trying to find the records you want, and only a third actually viewing these records. We want to spend 100% of our time looking at a record, ideally for 10 minutes before the information we seek pops out at us <grin>. Don't work that way. Because Ireland and the rest of the UK and colonial America too were organized according to the feudal land system, the land records are very different from what we find in an American county courthouse. The same goes for tax records and a lot of other things. Because of the hierarchical structure of land tenure, there's no one place that got the name of everyone, probably. You might luck out. Of course you might go crazy first. For one estate in Tyrone , the FHL library had something like 150 films. None indexed. All hand written in an old script you can't read. However we do need to understand the history of the estates from the top down, so you're thinking right there. PRONI probably has more on line than you want to read and long lists of the kinds of records it has. However I'd check the FHL too, but check Falley first. http://www.movinghere.org.uk/galleries/roots/irish/irishrecords/estaterecords.htm http://www.britishislesdna.com/Ireland/IR_land.htm Here's info on the Salter's Estate at PRONI http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction__salters__papers_d4108.pdf Google Irish Estate Records -- you'll find a lot of stuff. When you learn how to do this you are ahead of the eight ball for your English and Scots research. I researched the history of the land where my Scots ancestors had lived in Polmont, Stirling. The area was part of a medieval church estate and then devolved to yet more Hamiltons. They still retain their estate records and refuse to let anyone view them. But at least I got this far thanks to Irish genealogy classes. Linda Merle

Well your last sentence certainly is true! I know even some of the Undertakers didn't even arrive or take up the land... Tullyniskan, Desertcreat, and Killyman in Tyrone are areas where I also need to find about, so like you, I'd be inclined to believe it points to a Scottish descent, he became Rector of Tullanisken/Desertcreat in 1614, appointed via Trinity College, so I can check that out next time I'm in Dublin. His son got 1000 acres there in 1840's from Lord Castlestewart. Boy did they move around...followed them over time through six counties so far...not to mention USA, Australia etc. Your reply is what I thought and expected but no harm in asking just in case! Again, thank you. Re: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery,Hamilton, McDonald plantations /Date:/ Thu, 9 Feb 2012 19:59:55 -0500 /References:/ <4F344A02.4010804@utvinternet.com> /In-Reply-To:/ <4F344A02.4010804@utvinternet.com> DH, I don't believe any rent books of tenants survive pre-1700, and even at that time it's pretty sparse. The only thing recording "who got what" was acreages to the big undertakers that were to bring planters. I was only able to put two and two together regarding my ancestors on Lord Ochiltree's (Andrew Stewart's) land because they have many farms in the hearth rolls around Tullyniskan, Desertcreat, and Killyman in Tyrone. Stewart was from Ayrshire and recruited a lot of planters in Dumfries & Galloway where my ancestors were from, so there's really no actual link besides that. The earliest records of some of the McLain brothers were actually on English land (Clogher, Tyrone in 1626 and Bellaghy, L'Derry in 1630) which just goes to show you how much moving around there was and also reinforces what Leyburn said in his book "The Scotch-Irish: A Social History", that tenants were not loyal to one estate. Clearly there was a lack of Englishmen for the amount of land that were in the hands of English undertakers. A lot of English packed up and went home as they weren't made out for this rough frontier life. I believe Londonerry (planted by the London companies) became almost wholly Scotch in character by the 1640s. I believe a lot of Scottish merchants trading in Coleraine/Londonderry/Belfast would have been inundated with advertisements for cheap land throughout Ulster and would have had their pick. There was a strict plan for who got what, but really after 1620, anyone could have ended up anywhere. Chris

Hi Linda, yes have been through Hamilton and Montgomery websites, found the Surname I was after on both... Hanna "The Scotch Irish" (free at various places including Ancestry, as 'Scots-Irish') details the plantation and the first 30 years...but not what I'm looking for. I've read "An Historical Account of the Macdonnells of Antrim.", not what I'm after. On the likes of Montgomery website I get mine coming in two or three generations after plantation..Griffiths is too late. What I need are just plain Ledger entries recording who originally got land, why/when....Day 1 stuff. It probably doesn't exist. Re: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery,Hamilton, McDonald plantations /Date:/ Thu, 9 Feb 2012 23:00:26 +0000 (UTC) /In-Reply-To:/ <4F344A02.4010804@utvinternet.com> Hi Dave, probably the easiest entry is our old favorite: Hanna "The Scotch Irish" (free at various places including Ancestry, as 'Scots-Irish'). It details the plantation and the first 30 years . There's the Hamilton and Montgomery website, previously posted, that has a bibliography. There's Hills' "the McDonnells of Antrim" that is probably still free in google books. The major leases for this estate are in our archives. I think published in Familia. Search montgomery papers Hill in google books to find the Rev. Hill's Plantation Papers and Montgomery Manuscripts.

Sorry I snarled, but a it is cultural question, and I'm trying to encourage my vary quiet list. Secondly it isn't Irish at all. I don't know why, but traditionally there is virtually no yeast cookery in the Ulster kitchen. I suspect that it is to do with the kind of local meal and flour. That is why we eat wheaten and Soda bread both risen with Bicarbonate of Soda and Buttermilk. Up here in the North East of Scotland where they do have butteries, which are delicious if very fattening you are just about as far from Ireland as you can get and stay on the Scottish mainland. Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Extant > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:19 PM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries > > I intended to send the recipe to the Scottish-Irish-Food > list, but was a bit distracted and clicked on the wrong > address. I didn't even realize it had gone to the wrong list > until the responses started coming in. I do hope this will > die down soon so we can get back to the business of genealogy. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The only records from the early plantations are referring to the undertakers and how many acres they got. Actual rent books of tenants don't exist before the early 1700s and even then they were sparse. I was only able to put two and two together because the land my ancestors were on during the hearth rolls (Tyrone: desertcreat, tullyniskan, killyman) was under Lord Ochiltree of Ayr (Andrew Stewart) who recruited planters from dumfries and galloway where my ancestors were from. The earliest records I actually found some of the siblings in was Clogher, Tyrone in 1626 (Under English landlords) and Bellaghy, Londonderry (also English). It just goes to show more about what Leyburn said in his book "The Scotch-Irish: A Social History", there were just not enough Englishmen for the amount of land they had to plant and they looked for tenants anywhere, especially native Irish who would always pay the highest rent. Leases were anywhere from 21 years to life and there was a lot of moving around once established in Ulster. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: D H <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> Sender: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:34:42 To: <SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com Subject: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery, Hamilton, McDonald plantations If only anything was simplistic! While there is plenty written on the various plantations what I'm stuck on is getting details of who got what, why and when! I'm looking at Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald plantations in Antrim, and while I can do my own research I'm just wondering if anyone can point me at recommended reading which shows records of the individuals and the land each one got please? Thank you. DH ----------------------------- I recently purchased Bardon's book on the Ulster Plantation. (google bookers: it was just published so the text ain't in google books). I have not read very far in this fascinating book; however in the front there are a number of maps. The one has made me realize we, or I at least, have an over simplistic mental map of the ethnic mapping of the plantation of Ulster . This is the map on page XVI, The plantation of Ulster 1609-13. It does not include Antrim and Down as they were already colonized by largely Scots (Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dave, probably the easiest entry is our old favorite: Hanna "The Scotch Irish" (free at various places including Ancestry, as 'Scots-Irish'). It details the plantation and the first 30 years . There's the Hamilton and Montgomery website, previously posted, that has a bibliography. There's Hills' "the McDonnells of Antrim" that is probably still free in google books. The major leases for this estate are in our archives. I think published in Familia. Search montgomery papers Hill in google books to find the Rev. Hill's Plantation Papers and Montgomery Manuscripts. The PRONI website has detailed histories of these estates and lists deposits of estate records. The FHL may have some records on microfilm. You'd visit www.familysearch.org, select the catelog, and search. What to search is a lot of things: all Ireland (land records), etc, etc. Estate research is ultimately the 'heart' of Irish genealogy. It's hard to do! Usually we're looking for a specific townland. In the case of one in southern Tyrone, it took me quite a long time to figure out that it was part of the arch diocese church estate. However it was leased for a hundred years to a Stewart. I found the estate records in the FHL on microfilm. The other thing that helps is gazetteers that can give a brief picture of the parish and who the majore landlords were. Most of the time you start with Griffiths, which will id the lessee. However since many parts of these estates were sold off or merged into other estates due to dynastic marriages, you need to get the history from the PRONI website for the specific areas you're interested in. I need to finish researching Aghoghill in Antrim. I found my BLACK ancestors were there in the 1700s. However it was split between two estates. When I learned that I felt an overwhelming urge to go find a bottle of wine. I believe there are the Montgomery Papers on the Montgomery estate. I've not done estate research in Co Down but if I were, I'd go to PRONI's website. You also want to find an index to published articles, like PERSI, because many times major leases, at least, are published in periodicals. The British Isles Family History Society USA has a guide on line that is very very good: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bifhsusa/irishlinks.html See here for Finding Aids: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bifhsusa/resire.html Smith's Inventories is very useful as is Hayes. In a class on this topic, we were also instructed to use NIDS: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bifhsusa/nids/index.html Here we're talking probably a visit to a major university library. PRONI'll give you the major history, though. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "D H" <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, 9 February, 2012 5:34:42 PM Subject: [S-I] 17th century Ulster records for Individuals on Montgomery, Hamilton, McDonald plantations If only anything was simplistic! While there is plenty written on the various plantations what I'm stuck on is getting details of who got what, why and when! I'm looking at Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald plantations in Antrim, and while I can do my own research I'm just wondering if anyone can point me at recommended reading which shows records of the individuals and the land each one got please? Thank you. DH ----------------------------- I recently purchased Bardon's book on the Ulster Plantation. (google bookers: it was just published so the text ain't in google books). I have not read very far in this fascinating book; however in the front there are a number of maps. The one has made me realize we, or I at least, have an over simplistic mental map of the ethnic mapping of the plantation of Ulster . This is the map on page XVI, The plantation of Ulster 1609-13. It does not include Antrim and Down as they were already colonized by largely Scots (Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If only anything was simplistic! While there is plenty written on the various plantations what I'm stuck on is getting details of who got what, why and when! I'm looking at Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald plantations in Antrim, and while I can do my own research I'm just wondering if anyone can point me at recommended reading which shows records of the individuals and the land each one got please? Thank you. DH ----------------------------- I recently purchased Bardon's book on the Ulster Plantation. (google bookers: it was just published so the text ain't in google books). I have not read very far in this fascinating book; however in the front there are a number of maps. The one has made me realize we, or I at least, have an over simplistic mental map of the ethnic mapping of the plantation of Ulster . This is the map on page XVI, The plantation of Ulster 1609-13. It does not include Antrim and Down as they were already colonized by largely Scots (Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald

DH, I don't believe any rent books of tenants survive pre-1700, and even at that time it's pretty sparse. The only thing recording "who got what" was acreages to the big undertakers that were to bring planters. I was only able to put two and two together regarding my ancestors on Lord Ochiltree's (Andrew Stewart's) land because they have many farms in the hearth rolls around Tullyniskan, Desertcreat, and Killyman in Tyrone. Stewart was from Ayrshire and recruited a lot of planters in Dumfries & Galloway where my ancestors were from, so there's really no actual link besides that. The earliest records of some of the McLain brothers were actually on English land (Clogher, Tyrone in 1626 and Bellaghy, L'Derry in 1630) which just goes to show you how much moving around there was and also reinforces what Leyburn said in his book "The Scotch-Irish: A Social History", that tenants were not loyal to one estate. Clearly there was a lack of Englishmen for the amount of land that were in the hands of English undertakers. A lot of English packed up and went home as they weren't made out for this rough frontier life. I believe Londonerry (planted by the London companies) became almost wholly Scotch in character by the 1640s. I believe a lot of Scottish merchants trading in Coleraine/Londonderry/Belfast would have been inundated with advertisements for cheap land throughout Ulster and would have had their pick. There was a strict plan for who got what, but really after 1620, anyone could have ended up anywhere. Chris On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 5:34 PM, D H <hallmark1@utvinternet.com> wrote: > If only anything was simplistic! > > While there is plenty written on the various plantations what I'm stuck on > is getting details of who got what, why and when! > > I'm looking at Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal > MacDonnell/McDonald plantations in Antrim, and while I can do my own > research I'm > just wondering if anyone can point me at recommended reading which shows > records of the individuals and the land each one got please? > > Thank you. > DH > ----------------------------- > > > I recently purchased Bardon's book on the Ulster Plantation. (google > bookers: it was just published so the text ain't in google books). I have > not > read very far in this fascinating book; however in the front there are a > number of maps. The one has made me realize we, or I at least, have an over > simplistic mental map of the ethnic mapping of the plantation of Ulster . > > This is the map on page XVI, The plantation of Ulster 1609-13. It does not > include Antrim and Down as they were already colonized by largely Scots > (Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- *________________________________________ * "If all else fails, I will retreat up the valley of Virginia, plant my flag on the Blue Ridge, rally around the Scotch-Irish of that region and make my last stand for liberty amongst a people who will never submit to British tyranny whilst there is a man left to draw a trigger." - General George Washington, 1778 * *

Hi Sean, actually the Rev. Andrews is the admin of the scotch Irish cultural list <grin>. And while we're on the topic of culture..... one of the difficulties we've had is we're....well, us. We aren't the most cuddly ethnic group on the planet. Often we're accused of being blunt. This is not like our cousins to the south (in Ireland) who talk very flowery, embellish and beat around the bush. Not us. The Rev. Andrews was actually born and raised in the ol' homeland (Northern Ireland, not Scotland <grin>). So he comes by his bluntness honestly. I've gotten use to being irritating (and irritated) and the same is true for most of us here. Few of us win "Miss Personality" in the beauty pageants. If you want sweet talk, you have to go to Dublin <grin>. As for how his email got on the list, I do not begin to understand the innards and outards of Rootsweb. It might have internally done some re-directing. Maybe after I appoint you list admin (and flee to an off shore island with no Internet or cell phone reception), you can figure it out. Meanwhile, how did a guy named Sean Roche end up here? Sent here for punishment or are you spying on us? Or was your mother Mary Anderson? Just curious.....not planning on kicking you off or anything. I had a client with Rochfords in Mayo. What's the difference between a Roche and a Rochford I wonder? Linda Merle (evil list admin) ----- Original Message ----- From: "sean roche" <seanroche1@hotmail.com> To: "SCOTCH IRISH list" <scotch-irish@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, 9 February, 2012 1:27:54 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries It is extremely bad manners to flame posters on any list - all it does is cause arguments. You saw the title of the post, if you did not want to read it then don't open it - it is that simple !! If, as I suspect, you are connected to the list in some kind of admin role then I would direct you to where the email came from. It came from scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com which redirected a post to a list that either doesn't or no longer exists. It redirected the post to this list scotch-irish@rootsweb.com. It appears to me this is an issue that S-I has to resolve internally. People post on these lists for help and information, not to be treated like naughty schoolchildren. SEAN > From: edward.andrews@btinternet.com > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 10:55:53 +0000 > Subject: Re: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries > > This is a cultural issue > The S-I do not do Aberdeen Butteries, which are very localised to the North > East of Scotland. > I now live in Nairnshire, which is at the extreme North Western end of the > Doric speaking area which is really the Mearns, Aberdeen and Moray and > Nairn. The local baker does Butteries. I never experienced them when I was > in Ulster. > This is Scotland which is nothing to do with S-I > Edward > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Extant > > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:25 AM > > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries > > > > Aberdeen Butteries > > > > Butteries/Rowies/Aberdeen rolls > > > > 250g butter > > 125g lard > > 1 tablespoon soft brown sugar > > 500g flour > > 2 teaspoons of dried yeast > > 450ml warm water > > Pinch of salt > > > > Aberdeen Butteries > > Baking Directions For Aberdeen Butteries: > > > > 1. Make a paste from the yeast, sugar and a wee bit of the > > warm water and set aside. > > > > 2. Mix the flour and the salt together. Once the yeast has > > bubbled up add this and mix well to a dough and leave to rise. > > > > 3. Cream the butter and lard and divide into three portions. > > > > 4. Once the dough has doubled in size give it a good knead > > then roll into a rectangle about 1cm thick. > > > > 5. Then spread one portion of the butter mixture over two > > thirds of the dough. > > > > 6. Fold the remaining third of the dough over onto the butter > > mixture and fold the other bit over - giving three layers. > > Roll this back to the original size. > > > > 7. Allow to cool for 40 minutes. > > > > 8. Repeat stages 5-7 twice more. > > > > 9. Cut the dough into 16 pieces and shape each to a rough > > circle and place on baking trays. > > > > 10. Set aside to rise for about 45 minutes then bake at 200c > > for 15 minutes. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It is extremely bad manners to flame posters on any list - all it does is cause arguments. You saw the title of the post, if you did not want to read it then don't open it - it is that simple !! If, as I suspect, you are connected to the list in some kind of admin role then I would direct you to where the email came from. It came from scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com which redirected a post to a list that either doesn't or no longer exists. It redirected the post to this list scotch-irish@rootsweb.com. It appears to me this is an issue that S-I has to resolve internally. People post on these lists for help and information, not to be treated like naughty schoolchildren. SEAN > From: edward.andrews@btinternet.com > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 10:55:53 +0000 > Subject: Re: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries > > This is a cultural issue > The S-I do not do Aberdeen Butteries, which are very localised to the North > East of Scotland. > I now live in Nairnshire, which is at the extreme North Western end of the > Doric speaking area which is really the Mearns, Aberdeen and Moray and > Nairn. The local baker does Butteries. I never experienced them when I was > in Ulster. > This is Scotland which is nothing to do with S-I > Edward > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Extant > > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:25 AM > > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries > > > > Aberdeen Butteries > > > > Butteries/Rowies/Aberdeen rolls > > > > 250g butter > > 125g lard > > 1 tablespoon soft brown sugar > > 500g flour > > 2 teaspoons of dried yeast > > 450ml warm water > > Pinch of salt > > > > Aberdeen Butteries > > Baking Directions For Aberdeen Butteries: > > > > 1. Make a paste from the yeast, sugar and a wee bit of the > > warm water and set aside. > > > > 2. Mix the flour and the salt together. Once the yeast has > > bubbled up add this and mix well to a dough and leave to rise. > > > > 3. Cream the butter and lard and divide into three portions. > > > > 4. Once the dough has doubled in size give it a good knead > > then roll into a rectangle about 1cm thick. > > > > 5. Then spread one portion of the butter mixture over two > > thirds of the dough. > > > > 6. Fold the remaining third of the dough over onto the butter > > mixture and fold the other bit over - giving three layers. > > Roll this back to the original size. > > > > 7. Allow to cool for 40 minutes. > > > > 8. Repeat stages 5-7 twice more. > > > > 9. Cut the dough into 16 pieces and shape each to a rough > > circle and place on baking trays. > > > > 10. Set aside to rise for about 45 minutes then bake at 200c > > for 15 minutes. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I intended to send the recipe to the Scottish-Irish-Food list, but was a bit distracted and clicked on the wrong address. I didn't even realize it had gone to the wrong list until the responses started coming in. I do hope this will die down soon so we can get back to the business of genealogy.

Hi folks, In general it is not good to post recipes (jokes, chain emails, light chatter, ethnic jokes, etc) here. When we did these things we had fights between the serious people who are here for the genealogy and the social, cultural folks who find it boring. We solved that problem by starting another list for the social and culture people: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Ethnic-Scots/SCOTCH-IRISH-CULTURE.html Whether or not they will find a Scottish recipe off topic or not is for them to decide. "Scotch-Irish" is the name of an ethnic group in America. It does not mean 'maybe Irish, maybe Scots' as some seem to think. It also doesn't mean "Scotland". Scotland is a different country. On a different island from the homeland of the Scotch Irish, which is Ireland. It has a different culture, different history, different types of records, different food, different legal system even (Scots: Roman. Ireland: English common law). Just think for a moment: Is the USA England? If you think they are the same, try ordering up some spotted dick in an American restaurant. In Ireland they're called Ulster Scots. I think the same is generally true for Canada, but for bleed throughs due to the lack of a retaining wall between the two countries. We thank you for the recipe but it and all others need to be posted on the right list to avoid a breakout of hostilities. My new policy is if you cause a war I'm making YOU list admin. Now who towed Aberdeen to Belfast? What a job! I'd try a west coast Scots city first, but I'm lazy. Linda Merle (Jr. List Admin, after Extent)

This is a cultural issue The S-I do not do Aberdeen Butteries, which are very localised to the North East of Scotland. I now live in Nairnshire, which is at the extreme North Western end of the Doric speaking area which is really the Mearns, Aberdeen and Moray and Nairn. The local baker does Butteries. I never experienced them when I was in Ulster. This is Scotland which is nothing to do with S-I Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:scotch-irish-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Extant > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:25 AM > To: scotch-irish@rootsweb.com > Subject: [S-I] Aberdeen Butteries > > Aberdeen Butteries > > Butteries/Rowies/Aberdeen rolls > > 250g butter > 125g lard > 1 tablespoon soft brown sugar > 500g flour > 2 teaspoons of dried yeast > 450ml warm water > Pinch of salt > > Aberdeen Butteries > Baking Directions For Aberdeen Butteries: > > 1. Make a paste from the yeast, sugar and a wee bit of the > warm water and set aside. > > 2. Mix the flour and the salt together. Once the yeast has > bubbled up add this and mix well to a dough and leave to rise. > > 3. Cream the butter and lard and divide into three portions. > > 4. Once the dough has doubled in size give it a good knead > then roll into a rectangle about 1cm thick. > > 5. Then spread one portion of the butter mixture over two > thirds of the dough. > > 6. Fold the remaining third of the dough over onto the butter > mixture and fold the other bit over - giving three layers. > Roll this back to the original size. > > 7. Allow to cool for 40 minutes. > > 8. Repeat stages 5-7 twice more. > > 9. Cut the dough into 16 pieces and shape each to a rough > circle and place on baking trays. > > 10. Set aside to rise for about 45 minutes then bake at 200c > for 15 minutes. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Aberdeen Butteries Butteries/Rowies/Aberdeen rolls 250g butter 125g lard 1 tablespoon soft brown sugar 500g flour 2 teaspoons of dried yeast 450ml warm water Pinch of salt Aberdeen Butteries Baking Directions For Aberdeen Butteries: 1. Make a paste from the yeast, sugar and a wee bit of the warm water and set aside. 2. Mix the flour and the salt together. Once the yeast has bubbled up add this and mix well to a dough and leave to rise. 3. Cream the butter and lard and divide into three portions. 4. Once the dough has doubled in size give it a good knead then roll into a rectangle about 1cm thick. 5. Then spread one portion of the butter mixture over two thirds of the dough. 6. Fold the remaining third of the dough over onto the butter mixture and fold the other bit over - giving three layers. Roll this back to the original size. 7. Allow to cool for 40 minutes. 8. Repeat stages 5-7 twice more. 9. Cut the dough into 16 pieces and shape each to a rough circle and place on baking trays. 10. Set aside to rise for about 45 minutes then bake at 200c for 15 minutes.

Hi Christopher, I archive a lot of info on the list too. You're McLeans reminded me of something. I recently purchased Bardon's book on the Ulster Plantation. (google bookers: it was just published so the text ain't in google books). I have not read very far in this fascinating book; however in the front there are a number of maps. The one has made me realize we, or I at least, have an over simplistic mental map of the ethnic mapping of the plantation of Ulster . This is the map on page XVI, The plantation of Ulster 1609-13. It does not include Antrim and Down as they were already colonized by largely Scots (Sir Hugh Montgomery, Sir James Hamilton, Sir Randal MacDonnell/McDonald, Sir Arthur Chichester (not Scots -- English). The map is from a map by T. W Moody and R. J. Hunter in Moody, Martin and Byrne, "A New History of Ireland", ix. Anyway it identifies areas assigned to Scots and English undertakers as well as servitors and natives. Generally when thinking of central Ulster, I think of Derry, an English plantation. However to the south west was a large area, northern Tyrone and an area due west of Lough Neagh, that were Scots plantations. The one, at least, was probalby the Catholic Hamilton plantation. So this is another possibility for your McLeans. Hanna "The Scots Irish" would be the first place to check. No McLeans in the index. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Beal" <crbeal@gmail.com> To: SCOTCH-IRISH@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, 8 February, 2012 2:48:42 PM Subject: [S-I] Maclean/Maclaine Ancestry? 17th century Ulster records I was going to list my research findings for my ancestors on a website but I figured what better way than to just send them to this list and they'll be archived. These are compiled muster rolls, hearth rolls, parish records and miscellaneous records relating to McLeans (and all variants) in Ulster pre-1700. It's time-consuming to get a hold and find all this stuff so I wanted to make it easier for anyone doing the same. I've plotted out on maps McLeans in the 1660s hearth rolls and compared them with 1740 householders rolls and it showed several main settlements and populations that are likely of different backgrounds. I also took into account names that could be anglicized as McLean like Clan Ailin of Inishowen. Early records show McAllens as MacAileans and MacAllanes (which could be anglicized as McClean, etc) and it seems the "Mc" and "O" were interchangeable at one point. There seems to be the following principal 17th century settlements: 1. Kilmacrenan, Donegal: Possibly Tyrconnel's gallowglass 2. Londonderry city, Coleraine, Belfast : Likely merchant settlers from Scotland 3. N. Antrim (near Dunluce): Likely the redshanks brought by the MacDonnells 4. The Fews, Armagh: Possibly Tyrone's gallowglass 5. Raphoe, Donegal: Lowland settlers 6. E. Tyrone & Bann valley: My ancestors from Dumfries. At least four brothers came to Tyrone in the 1620s and settled on Lord Ochiltree's land north of Dungannon, by the 1740s, the family had spread out up past Magherafelt into the Bann valley. 1602 Pardon List: The Fews, Armagh --Soldiers under Henry McShane O'Neill Owen Og McElane, kern Allin McElan, kern James Boy O'Callane 1609 Pardon List: Inishowen area --Belligerents in O'Dougherty's rebellion Gilpatrick McAlline Gillagrome McAlline Owen McCallane Henrie Leine Edward Leyne Murtagh O'Lane Cale O'Lane Summonisters Rolls Gilbert M'Cleene of Clogher, Co. Tyrone, No 14, 1626 1630 Muster Rolls Roary McClene, Raphoe barony, Donegal John McClen, Raphoe barony, Donegal John McClane, Loughinsholin, Londonderry Ulster Army of 1642 (a.k.a. "Settler Army" or "Laggan Forces") Name-Regiment-Muster Date-Muster place McClean, John Maj. Houstone's Reg't, Apr 22, '42 Portaferry, Down McCallane, Wm. Capt. Shaw's Reg't, Jul 20 '42 Cumber, Down McCleene, Thos. Capt. Kennedy's Reg't, Jul 12, '42 Cumber, Down McCleene, John Capt. Kennedy's Reg't, Jul 12 '42 Cumber, Down McCleene, Thos (jr?) Capt. Kennedy's, Jul 12, '42 Cumber, Down McClen, Rory Capt. Stewart's Reg't, Aug 20 '42 Raphoe, Donegal McLynne, Rob't Lt. Col. Sanderson's Regt', Aug 20 '42 Raphoe, Donegal McClane, Thos. Sir Wm Stewart's reg't, Aug 20 '42 Ramelton, Donegal McClane, John Sir Wm Stewart's reg't, Aug 20 '42, Ramelton, Donegal McClane, John Capt. Erskine's reg't, Aug 20 '42, Newtowne, Donegal McCalleene, Jas. Capt. Cunningham's, Aug 20 '42, Newtowne, Donegal McCline, John Capt. Cunningham's reg't, Aug 20, '42, Newtowne, Donegal McCline, Alex. Sir Wm Stewart's Cavalry, Aug 20 '42 Newtowne, Donegal Macklane, Thos. Capt. Thornton's reg't, Aug 18 '43 Garrison of Londonderry City Hearth Money Rolls, 1660s McO'Leane, (unk.) Trummery, Magheramesk, Massereene, Antrim Leane, Alex. Trummery, Magheramesk, Massereene, Antrim McClenn, John, Kilcoan Mor, Island Magee, Belfast, Antrim McCleane, Rob't. Forth River, Shankill, Belfast, Antrim McLeane, Jas. Ballybanagh, Ballycor, Antrim U., Antrim McLeane, John Ballybanagh, Ballycor, Antrim U., Antrim McLeane, Thos. Ballybanagh, Ballycor, Antrim U., Antrim McLeane, widow Ballyhome, Dunluce, Dunluce L., Antrim McLean, Dushea Ballymacrea, Dunluce, Dunluce L., Antrim McLeane, Morphy Ballynaloob, Killagahn, Dunluce, U., Antrim McLeane, Neale Aghenehey, Porglenone, Toome L., Antrim McLaine, George Drumberg, Duneane, Toome U., Antrim McLaine, Edmund Glenconway, Bovevagh, Keenaght, Londonderry McLanie, Neal Begh, Maghera, Loughinsholin, Londonderry McOlane, John Lederg, Killyman, Tyrone McGlaine, Patrick Galcussagh, Desertcreat, Tyrone McLeane, Neall Skeanigarett, Desertcreat, Tyrone McKline, John Coolkill, Clonfeacle, Tyrone McClene, Stephen Mullycarnan, Clonfeacle, Tyrone McClean, Andrew Ballymenagh, Tullyniskan, Tyrone McClane, James Kilfoyle (?), Strabane, Tyrone McClean, John Killybegs, Bannagh, Donegal McCleane, John Clanlery, Kilmacrenan, Donegal McClean, Thomas Aghnish, Kilmacrenan, Donegal Mackline, Torlagh Dowish, Raphoe, Donegal McClean, Patrick Templemore, Inishowen, Donegal Register of Derry Cathedral (St. Columb's Church of Ireland) Jan 22, 1662 Marraige of Archiball M'Clene & Mary M'Cracken, wit: Wm M'Clene Dec 27, 1663 Bapt. of William M'Clene, s. Patrick Dec 27, 1663 Bapt. of John M'Clene, s. Archiball Mar 9, 1667 Bapt of Andrue McLane, s. John Feb 24, 1695 Bapt of Daniel McOlane, s. Daniel & Kath. Jun 16, 1695 Bapt. of John Leane, s. John Sept 1695 Burial of John Leane, s. John Dec 12, 1695 Burial of John McOlane, s. Daniel & Kath. Chris Beal ** * * ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCOTCH-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message