Looking for information about Stillwell family who may have immigrated to US from Ulster Plantation during the 1740's Went to western North Carolina. John Stillwell or Jerimiah Stillwell or Stilwell.

Hi folks, when I am researching and find notice of a migrant from the old country, I post it here. I urge others to do the same. The archives are full of these 'random findings'. Todays is from http://www.shawhan.com/elizconway.html THE TRIUMPHANT TRAILS, TOILS, AND TRIBUTIONS OF REVOLUTIONARY PIONEER MOTHER, ELIZABETH CONWAY – A BIOGRAPHY TO SHOW THE HUMAN PORTRAIT OF THIS HEROINE OF THE WESTERN FRONTIER. (Paper given by Virginia Walton Brooks (Mrs. Berry B. Brooks, Jr.) at the April meeting of the Memphis Genealogical Society. (Transcribed by Sherida Dougherty from a typed transcription of the article from “Ansearchin News”, Vol. X, January 1963) "Elizabeth Bridgewater Conway was native Virginian of English parentage. About 1750-52, she became the wife of John Conway, Sr., a Latin scholar and teacher, who had emigrated from his Dublin, Ireland home to Virginia. His teaching profession caused them to establish several homes in Virginia and Kentucky. Their family Bible owned by Mrs. Berry B. Brooks, a descendent records the names and births of nine of their children. Family tradition tells us that they lived in Spotsylvania County, Va. " They had moved, by the Revolution, to Ruddle’s Station on the upper waters of Licking River, in the present county of Bourbon, in Kentucky where they were subjected to an attack by Indians: "Early in the spring of 1780, the danger of marauding Indians became so great that these migratory families were obligated to leave their own roughhewn log homes to move into the fort for protection. While the women-folk and children remained within the fort, the men went out daily to work, clearing the land and planting the crops. Alternating this work with acting in the capacity of guards, having their guns read to protect the workers against an Indian attack. "Ruddle’s Station and the Conway family, had escaped the terror of a devastating Indian raid until a peaceful Sunday morning, on that fateful day, June 19, 1780, when Elizabeth and John Conway’s youngest son was scalped by marauding Indians sent by the British....". John Conway, Sr. died May 3, 1801 in Campbell County, Kentucky. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Linda Merle wrote: > Following up on the Forsythes, my current favorite story > is one in Virginia where a James McCormick was serving > under a Capt. Paterson. Dehra Parker/Chichester/Kerr is gong to be a bit like that. A understand that her mother was a gambling addict, and the man she married was addicted to morphine, something he picked up when treated with morphine for malaria while in the British Army. So she was, by today's standards, co-addictive. As a politician, she seems to have been secretive in the extreme about her personal life. She left no personal papers, and one would have had to be mad to operate in the mad-house that was Ulster in the 20s to 60s of last century anyhow. Story goes that she was born at Dehra Dun, northern India (and named for the location). How does one get to do that when one's parents are based in America and one has an American childhood? A long honeymoon? Returning to America via India? That might be okay today, but in the 1880s all I can say is "dream on"! It's a pound to a penny that what few details are available about her background are designed to obfuscate her actual background. All her father's papers are said to have been lost in the great fire of Chicago in 1871, which seems overly convenient to me. So I just hope the story about Annie Forsyth's rellies living on the Brandywine River at the time fo the American War of Independence isn't another invention. Too convenient that the location chosen was that of the largest, and one of the best known, engagements of the war, one which the British won. But having said all that, there's only one way to find out, I suppose. About the first thing I downloaded from the Rootweb PACHESTER list archives was a request for info on a William Forsyth who came to Chester County about 1739 from Londonderry, IRE, with his two brothers James and John. They are said to have gone IRE>PA>KY>IL. Chicago is in IL, and the story goes that she was a Chicago girl when she married James Kerr Fisher, so his going back to Co Derry would have been a homecoming of sorts, back to roots for Annie Forsyth. But robertsmith@comcast.net has not so far answered my email request, so it's square one with that lot Charlie

"Charles A. Wyly" wrote: > Hi, > do you have connections to the Clark of Lewis and Clark expedition? No, all my Clark connection is in Northern Ireland. I've read about Clarka and Lewis, but never had any connection with same/ Charlie

For what it is worth, I found some FORSYTH marriages in PA so I'll post them in this thread in case someone needs them. Source: Pennsylvania Marriages Prior to 1790 (book details on request) 1771, Apr 22 FORSYTH, Andrew and Elizabeth WILLIAMS 1775, Oct 10 FORSYTH, George and Chloe ELLIOT 1770, Nov 7 FORSYTH, Margaret and James SMITH This could be the same Andrew FORSYTH who appears in a list of apprentices and servants as a master: Dec 8 1772, Henry THIESS of Rotterdam, servant to Andrew FORSYTH of Philad. (source: Emigrants to Pennsylvania 1641-1819) regards, Sharyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Ramsey" <lee.ramsey@comcast.net> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] FORSYTH > Charles Clark wrote > > > I'm looking for FORSYTH, said to have been "living on the Brandywine River > > in Pennsylvania at the time of the War of Independence." Annie FORSYTH > > (married ca 1881-1882), whose grandparents "were very early settlers, > > living on the Brandywine River at the time of the War of Independence." > > The early Scotch -Irish settlements in Pennsylvania were made between 1710 > and 1740, starting in Chester Co., PA. > > Brandywine Creek (River) ran through portions of early Chester Co., PA, > south of Philadelphia, with the southern part of the creek entering New > Castle Co., Maryland as it empties into the Delaware River. Many of these > early settlers probably disembarked at Newcastle rather than Philadelphia > and continued westward. > > > > As early as 1740, just northeast of Brandywine Creek and adjacent New Castle > Co., MD was Chichester Township, Chester Co., PA, which appears to have been > taken into Delaware Co., PA as lower and upper Chichester Townships. > > > > The Lower Brandywine Presbyterian meeting house was established in 1720, > just north of the Delaware River. The Forks of the Brandywine Presbyterian > meeting house was established in 1740, as part of the Donegal Presbytery. > > > > Lee Ramsey

Charles Clark wrote > I'm looking for FORSYTH, said to have been "living on the Brandywine River > in Pennsylvania at the time of the War of Independence." Annie FORSYTH > (married ca 1881-1882), whose grandparents "were very early settlers, > living on the Brandywine River at the time of the War of Independence." The early Scotch -Irish settlements in Pennsylvania were made between 1710 and 1740, starting in Chester Co., PA. Brandywine Creek (River) ran through portions of early Chester Co., PA, south of Philadelphia, with the southern part of the creek entering New Castle Co., Maryland as it empties into the Delaware River. Many of these early settlers probably disembarked at Newcastle rather than Philadelphia and continued westward. As early as 1740, just northeast of Brandywine Creek and adjacent New Castle Co., MD was Chichester Township, Chester Co., PA, which appears to have been taken into Delaware Co., PA as lower and upper Chichester Townships. The Lower Brandywine Presbyterian meeting house was established in 1720, just north of the Delaware River. The Forks of the Brandywine Presbyterian meeting house was established in 1740, as part of the Donegal Presbytery. Lee Ramsey

As I start in to contemplating doing a little bit of Pennsylvania research, this all sounds both promising and scary at the same time. There's a lot to find, and many haystacks to hide a needle in. Or at least that's how it feels to a beginner. I'm looking for FORSYTH, said to have been "living on the Brandywine River in Pennsylvania at the time of the War of Independence" Well, perhaps I'd better start at the beginning and work back. We start with Dame Dehra Parker (previously Chichester, nee Kerr, her daughter married my cousin James Clark who changed his name to Chichester-Clark, and their son Jimmy Chichester-Clark was prime minister of Northern Ireland 1969-1971), who was a Minister at the Stormont for much of the time between 1920 and 1960, and who between 1935 and 1956 had a lease on Clonmore, the house at Upperlands which my grandmother and her brother lived in from then until they died in the late 80s. She's a somewhat mysterious figure, and seems to have covered her tracks well. But I like a challenge.... Dehra Kerr's parents were James Kerr Fisher, said to have emigrated from co Derry as a young man and made his pile as a financier around Chicago and Indianapolis, and Annie FORSYTH (married ca 1881-1882), whose grandparents "were very early settlers, living on the Brandywine River at the time of the War of Independence." I have no more than that, in fact I even had to educate myself on the fact that there was a battle of Brandywine River in 1777 during said war of independence, but the phrasing seems to suggest that these Forsyths were living there rather than fighting. Charlie Linda Merle wrote: > Hi Bill, > > I do genealogy professionally. That means I've had > training in how to do research. I not only own but have read > a number of books/articles on researching in PA. Also I've > actually DONE the work, analyzed the results, etc. Not only > for my family but a number of others.

Following up on the Forsythes, my current favorite story is one in Virginia where a James McCormick was serving under a Capt. Paterson. Like many of us (present company included) he had a mouth that got him in trouble. He debutes in "Summer Soldiers, A Survey & Index of Revolutionary War Courts-Martial" for "Striking Colonel Putnam's horse and saying at the same time, "Damn you, who's there, clear the road;" leaving the camp without orders: thirty-nine lashes." Apparently he ran off. Apparently he was retrieved by Colonel Sargent's Regiment for a man with the same name was found guilty of desertion and mutiny and sentenced to death by hanging. However then a Capt. DeWitt of Colonel Humphries' Regiment liberated James McCormick, a soldier in Colonel Sargent's Regiment, from the main guard, who was under sentence of death: acquitted because no crime had been lodged against the prisoner on the captain's list. I am not sure this is the same guy but seems to be.....in any case just remember when on guard duty to not strike the Colonel's horse while yelling: Damn you, who's there, clear the road". A big mistake!!!! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Charles, You can get the scoop on PA genealogy by using the free LDS state guides, downloadable for the most part at their website: www.familysearch.org . But you would also want to start by checking for them in IGI. The IGI source may lead you to actual records. Even a patron sheet suggests that 'someone' might be 'working on' these people, meaning you can find clues fast. Check the Internet too. A search of the FHL catalog for the surname may uncover documents written on them. SOmetimes you can tell if the family history is relevant from the brief description. Also I use www.usgenweb.com ALL the time. Each state has links and each county. There are archives -- all free, free free. It varies with the state and county as to what's available. For your area of PA A LOT. However you should also check www.iarchives.com -- the published series of key records from Pennsylvania: the warrants, miltary records, etc. To find information on the Brandywine, use google. Here is a page: http://cfpms.ucf.k12.pa.us/uhistory2/BrRiver/ If an adult male was living in PA at the time of the Revolution he SHOULD appear on the militia lists. SHOULD being the critical word. SOme lived just too far out in the wilderness though most of them didn't survive to leave descendents.... Some hid under rocks (I really think so). Most served in the militia or ran off from the militia or were courtmartialed, etc. I just did a search at Iarchives and got: F Series Series 3 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume XXVIII Page 331 Relevancy* 100% 2 Return Of State Tax For The County Of Fayette. 1785 Series Series 3 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume XXII Page 582 Relevancy* 34% 3 Minutes Of The Susquehanna Company Claimimg Lands In Wyoming. 1753-1801. Series Series 2 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume XVIII Page 99 Relevancy* 34% 4 Return Of State Tax For The County Of Fayette. 1786 Series Series 3 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume XXII Page 591 Relevancy* 23% 5 Transcript Of Property With Number Of Inhabitants In The County Of Westmoreland, 1783 Series Series 3 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume XXII Page 372 Relevancy* 23% 6 Pennsylvania Archives. Series Series 9 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume I Page 94 Relevancy* 23% 7 Minutes of Board of Property Series Series 3 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume I Page 740 Relevancy* 23% 8 Muster Rolls Of The Pennsylvania Volunteers In The War Of 1812-1814 Series Series 2 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume XII Page 522 Relevancy* 23% 9 Effective Supply Tax of the City of Philadelphia. 1780 Series Series 3 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume XV Page 335 Relevancy* 23% 10 Sixteenth Division, Beaver, Butler, Crawford, Erie, Venango and Warren Counties. Series Series 6 Collection The Pennsylvania Archives Volume Volume VII Page 801 For page one. Search for all the variants you can think of and then use my webpage to find the militia lists and search them front to rear, or at least the F's. You can also check for the militia index cards on the website of the Pennsylvania archives. Sorry dont' recall the URL, just google for Pennsylvania Archives and you'll find it with no trouble. ...or go to the PA page of www.usgenweb.com . I have books that I can consult on PA geography, etc, but frankly it's faster to use www.usgenweb.com!! Ancestry has the DAR lineage books on line and the primary index to federal service records for Revolutionary soldiers (M93). If he was a pacifist he may show up in various court records in the county. If he was a loyalist he will show up in the court records! Plus genealogy.com has a CD on that has about 15 books on loyalists. If you join for a month you will get your money's worth in 15 minutes-- ie you can do a semi decent search to determine if he was a loyalist or not. 1/3rd of the folks were with George W, 1/3rd were neutral (in PA many pacifist Germans) 1/3rd were loyalist Not spread out evenly all over like margarine in bread. Very unevenly spread out. Many think there were no Loyalists in Mother Cumberland, but they are wrong. I have found cases where individuals lost estates in Bedford due to loyalism -- and they had Mc name too, suggesting they were Ulster Scots. In that area at that time 95% of the people were of Ulster descent. The rest were ENglish, Scots, Germans. Oh and Indians. Lets not forget themselves. Best of luck!! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Charles.Clark" <Charles.Clark@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:39:52 +1200 >As I start in to contemplating doing a little bit of Pennsylvania >research, this all sounds both promising and scary at the same time. >There's a lot to find, and many haystacks to hide a needle in. Or at least >that's how it feels to a beginner. >I'm looking for FORSYTH, said to have been "living on the Brandywine River >in Pennsylvania at the time of the War of Independence" >Well, perhaps I'd better start at the beginning and work back. We start >with Dame Dehra Parker (previously Chichester, nee Kerr, her daughter >married my cousin James Clark who changed his name to Chichester-Clark, >and their son Jimmy Chichester-Clark was prime minister of Northern >Ireland 1969-1971), who was a Minister at the Stormont for much of the >time between 1920 and 1960, and who between 1935 and 1956 had a lease on >Clonmore, the house at Upperlands which my grandmother and her brother >lived in from then until they died in the late 80s. She's a somewhat >mysterious figure, and seems to have covered her tracks well. But I like a >challenge.... > >Dehra Kerr's parents were James Kerr Fisher, said to have emigrated from >co Derry as a young man and made his pile as a financier around Chicago >and Indianapolis, and Annie FORSYTH (married ca 1881-1882), whose >grandparents "were very early settlers, living on the Brandywine River at >the time of the War of Independence." I have no more than that, in fact I >even had to educate myself on the fact that there was a battle of >Brandywine River in 1777 during said war of independence, but the phrasing >seems to suggest that these Forsyths were living there rather than >fighting. > >Charlie > > >Linda Merle wrote: > >> Hi Bill, >> >> I do genealogy professionally. That means I've had >> training in how to do research. I not only own but have read >> a number of books/articles on researching in PA. Also I've >> actually DONE the work, analyzed the results, etc. Not only >> for my family but a number of others. > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

On 04 May, 2005, at 18:09, gordon crooks wrote: > Linda:I fail to see what you think that the Pennsylvania records > are confusing. It is in fact a vast collection and east to wade > thru. In addition to the State Archives, most counties also have > web site and they again are loaded with info. The state is very > history minded, their roads are lousy and their taxes are low. I > live in Maryland (next door to Pa.) and plan to visit on a day trip > tomorrow I will walk the lands that my ancestor settled on in 1741 > thanks to the State of Pennsylvania translating old hand written > maps onto modern maps. Unless things have changed radically since the last time I looked, very little of the Pennsylvania Archives are on-line, let alone those of places like Philadelphia. There are indexes to much Philadelphia material, but not the material itself. The same is true for the records of many of the local County Historical Societies. Don't be confused just because there is a lot of information on-line. What is on line is probably only about 1% of the materials available! Don't forget, the usefulness of such materials is always directly related to what information it is that you are looking for, as well as the time periods involved. One of the most confusing aspects of the Pennsylvania records is WHERE are they WHEN. Birth and Death records are not centralized. One must pick the right archive for the dates involved. The last time I checked, the Philadelphia archives had a pretty decent Genealogy "pointer" section ... i.e. they try to describe which records are where and what you have to do to access them. T.T.F.N. William H. Magill PM University Lodge 51, GLPA Pennsylvania Lodge of Research Philadelphia, PA magill@mcgillsociety.org magill@acm.org magill@mac.com whmagill@gmail.com

Hi Bill, I do genealogy professionally. That means I've had training in how to do research. I not only own but have read a number of books/articles on researching in PA. Also I've actually DONE the work, analyzed the results, etc. Not only for my family but a number of others. So.... >Unless things have changed radically since the last time I looked, >very little of the Pennsylvania Archives are on-line, OOPS, that's WRONG. The largest part (the genealogically interesting parts according to the State Library of PA, too) are ON LINE AND FREE. Been there for a couple years now. You just need to read our website or our archives to access them. Our website is at http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle . I did a lot of research on them for a client and published the results FREE on my website, explaining two things (FREE, I might add <grin>). 1. What is in the confusing published PA Archive series. 2. What is free on line. To find that out, read the website. The reason finding aids is required is because the published PA archive series ARE CONFUSING. Also you don't often find a whole set of them, but to repeat, the genealogically interesting stuff is on line now and FREE. If you have not spend a few hours with the published series of PA archive material than you don't know why they are confusing. SO maybe you won't appreciate the guides on my website and provided by the State Library of PA. What is in them? Warrants, militia lists, tax lists, etc, the KEY RECORDS for colonial and post colonial PA. While they got a lot more stuff in their big windowless tower in Harrisburg, its not the key records. You go there after you get the easy stuff, the stuff you start with. >What is on line is probably only about 1% of the materials available! What is important is if it is the KEY information that is on line or not. the KEY information IS on line. All you have to do is read our website. It's been there now for 2 years. Here we talk about PENNSYLAVANIA records, not county records. Not records in Philadelphia, but records whose unpublished originals are in Harrisburg. Such as militia records, the warrant registers for key counties. What is on line at the state archive's website are index cards that are an index to the Revolutionary war collection. As all able bodied men under I think it was 59 had to register, these are almost a census of all men in PA. Wonder if your ancestor was in PA during the Revolution? Check the cards. It's pretty dumb to argue over whether or not the published PA Archives series is confusing or not. Instead go use them, either with the finding aids or not. Doesn't matter at all. If you don't find them confusing, don't use the finding aids. If you don't use the Published PA Archives Series -- well that's not too smart -- or so said MY teachers <grin>. CHECK OUT THE WEBSITE and follow the link to the free material Maybe it'll help out. Maybe not. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Linda: Also Its FREE, we don't pay as you do for Scotlands people, nor do we pay a fee to libaries, also USGEN for most counties has an assigned web for each county in Pa. along with a web controller and I recently put a history of a old histroical church on their site free of charge for anyone who wants to read it. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Merle" <merle@mail.fea.net> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:47 PM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Researching in the published Pennsylvania Archives > Hi folks, > > PA has published a number of series of records. These are confusing, to > say the least. A brief description of them is > here: > http://www.statelibrary.state.pa.us/libraries/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=40596 > > There's a more detailed description on our webpages > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle that links to a FREE > set on line. > > Rootsweb is also putting parts on line. > > Linda Merle > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > > > > > >

Linda:I fail to see what you think that the Pennsylvania records are confusing. It is in fact a vast collection and east to wade thru. In addition to the State Archives, most counties also have web site and they again are loaded with info. The state is very history minded, their roads are lousy and their taxes are low. I live in Maryland (next door to Pa.) and plan to visit on a day trip tomorrow I will walk the lands that my ancestor settled on in 1741 thanks to the State of Pennsylvania translating old hand written maps onto modern maps. Just to make you feel better I think PRONTO STINKS!!, almost everything Pa. has is on the net one way or another, can you say the same thing about PRONI? Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Merle" <merle@mail.fea.net> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 4:47 PM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Researching in the published Pennsylvania Archives > Hi folks, > > PA has published a number of series of records. These are confusing, to > say the least. A brief description of them is > here: > http://www.statelibrary.state.pa.us/libraries/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=40596 > > There's a more detailed description on our webpages > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle that links to a FREE > set on line. > > Rootsweb is also putting parts on line. > > Linda Merle > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > > > > > >

Hi folks, PA has published a number of series of records. These are confusing, to say the least. A brief description of them is here: http://www.statelibrary.state.pa.us/libraries/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=40596 There's a more detailed description on our webpages http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle that links to a FREE set on line. Rootsweb is also putting parts on line. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

The Banbridge and Dromore births have been updated on my website, Raymond http://www.raymondscountydownwebsite.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.1 - Release Date: 02/05/05

After some months absence I was just wondering how I might return to the Scotch-Irish list again, and of course that 'wondering' lead me to 'wonder' what if anything at all I might be able contribute to the list. For many people, names and dates in data-bases are to be collected and treasured. But to me it's not only the collecting of facts and figures that matters ... perhaps it's the long ago words woven into stories set amidst familiar place names that form the fabric of a life once lived that excite me. Cold hard facts carved into stone and rock solid data-bases most often leave me wondering and wanting more. No! not necessarily more facts and figures ... just more information as to how the people in those data-bases might have lived. If I could have a wish granted, I would wish for a magic carpet ride so that I might be able to travel back in time to the days of my ancestors. I would love to visit with my wee granny when she was a young vibrant girl living her life amidst the green fields of an Ireland I can never really know, even though I was born in Northern Ireland and I spent my growing up years within miles of where my grandmother had lived out her entire life. Yet her Ireland and my Ireland were so very much different. She must have had dreams ... sure! didn't everyone have dreams no matter where or when they lived? I do know that she loved and lost, (big time) at least on two separate occasions, and a result of one of those encounters my father was born. You won't see that information on my grandmothers headstone or on my fathers headstone. Date of Birth ... Date of Death, all duly recorded for the record. But what about all of the unspoken words and the unfilled dreams in between? When I think of my wee granny I can still see her in my memory as a small grey haired women who should have been wasted by years of working in a hot and dust filled local spinning mill. I read somewhere in one of my books that the life expectancy of someone working in that particular department in that particular mill where she had worked, might very well be set at about forty five years of age. My wee granny beat the odds ... she lived until she was eighty three years of age. Maybe ... just maybe, reading the history of an area can help us form some insight into to what life might have been like for our ancestors. Like I said at the beginning of this email ... I was just 'wondering'.

I wonder if the key to this isn't in the phrase "aparently his descendants"? As an Anglican myself, I've seen two examples of people turning Catholic and losing touch with their family. In both cases, Francis Stuart being one, and his cousin Charles Gage Stuart being the other, getting involved with a catholic woman has been the key to it all Francis Stuart with Iseult Gonne in Dublin, and of course he ended up not only south of the border but later in Germany during WWII. He seems clearly to have been a family scapegoat first and foremost, and it all flows from that Charels Gage Stuart was in the Royal Navy, married an Argentinian catholic woman he met when stationed in Buenos Aires during WWI, and was late disinherited from Ballyhivistock. Though it should be said that there were a number of other inheritors who died before he reached the top of the queue, so the possibility of being disinherited would not have been something he considered when first getting married. May I suggest the likely course of events might have been, Linda, that your fellow might have been on the outer with his family, married a catholic as a way of dealing with that or for some other reason, and lastly been disowned by his family more or less as a confirmation of the process of scapegoating that would have begun many years before. In which case, the precise details of whether he was excommunicated, disowned, or whatever are a bit secondary (though obviously important to be researched) by comparison to the fact of his being on the outer with his family (something which the excommunication or whatever tends to confirm. I guess that the difference between my approach and Edward's reflects the different position of the Church in Anglican and Presbyterian society: Church in the Anglican scheme of things tends to be secondary to the important things such as preserving ownership of landed estates and keeping others such as Presbyterians and (especially) Catholics in their places (with apologies to any Presbyterians or Catholics who might be offended by such comments). And so "disinheritance" is a word which looms larger in my list of sticks to hit people with than does "ex-communication" I guess you've alluded to the same thing when you say that "I am told many of his tenants changed their Irish names to Scottish ones and started showing up for services at the Church of IReland parish in order to remain tenants as opposed to American immigrants...." But the Marquis would not have had excommunication available to him as a stick to beat people with. That would have been the prerogative of Church officials such as the bishop, who were not answerable to him. His stick of choice would have been eviction (for leeaseholders etc) or disinheritance (for those close to him). I wonder if your informant might not have got his words mixed up over the last couple of centuries? Charlie > The people with the lastname in question, apparently his > descendents, were minor leasees of the Marquise of Downshire. > A hundred years later or so (1800s) one set were buried in > the RC Churchyard, suggesting the family had become Catholic, > though apparently too the Marquise was not known for liking > Catholics. I am told many of his tenants changed their > Irish names to Scottish ones and started showing up for > services at the Church of IReland parish in order to remain > tenants as opposed to American immigrants.... Could be that > target family experienced lapses....donno...IN the USA they > were Presbyterian and Baptist. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/2005

A man I know told me that his Roman Catholic grandfather came to America in early 1900's and married a Protestant woman with whom he had several children. They stayed together until a Roman Catholic priest told him he was living in sin and he should leave. He then did so and the family never saw him again. My friend said he was told that this was known as an Irish divorce. David Nicholson

This is so obvious I hate to even ask it - but, Linda, you have been in touch with the current rector of the parish haven't you? You might be pleasantly surprised. When I was at PRONI a couple of years ago I looked at their microfilmed records of the Donagheady (Co. Tyrone) church records. I wanted a copy of a page from the vestry book with the signature of my 8G Grandfather James Hamilton. They refused - said they could not copy anything from the vestry book & didn't allow LDS copying of it. BMDs were also included in the same book & they would have copied a page from that portion. To get anything copied from the vestry book you had to get C of I permission. With church permission I would be able to purchase a copy of the microfilm reel. Several days later my brother & I were in the area & showed up on the doorstep of the rectory. David Ferry, rector, could not have been nicer when I told him I was wanting permission to obtain the copy. He told me to wait a minute, went upstairs, and returned with the original book! You can see a picture of him & me holding it here: http://homepage.mac.com/slbm/PhotoAlbum2.html He also made a copy of a page for me. Later I did obtain the microfilm from PRONI. All it took was an email from him to me granting permission which I forwarded to PRONI. Sara

Hello Jane, Try the surname navigator at www.rat.de/kuijsten/navigator/ and search both categories for Ireland. Erwin could also be Irwin and Irvin(e), I should imagine. Rob Doragh Liverpool UK Jane Atwell <jalu@bayou.com> Subject: ERWIN Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 -0500 info on a John ERWIN mentioned in the will (1813) of Alexander ERWIN who came to this country from the north of Ireland in 1776. Alexander calls him his son in law married to his daughter Martha.