Hi Alice, This is a very old, very standard two volume set of books that most likely is in your local library. It is for sale at genealogy.com usually or look for second hand copies in the usual way (www.froogle, etc, etc). It is in www.ancestry.com as 'Scots-Irish'. I do not know if it is free or not. Check yourself. It is on the Scotch-Irish CD #276 sold by genealogy.com that may be in a library near you. As it's over 100 years old, it's likely someone purchased a copy in that time. It is one of the first places you check for families though it is not likely to have yours or mine. It has IMMENSE amounts of history in it. Without reading it and other things you ain't gonna get too far in Ulster. It has the locations of all early Presbyterian congregations in America for example. This is useful when you are researching congregations, which you must do. You can read our webpages for more suggestions: http://homepages.rootswb.com/~merle Why not tell the list what you know about them. It's important to tell us where they 'landed' after emigrating. Maybe you can find a connection here. Best of luck! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: alice6731@comcast.net Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:03:58 +0000 >Linda, what is "Scoth-Irish" by Hanna, and is it possible to have access to it? I am researching the "Hopkins" surname, they were Catholic and I believe they came from the northern Ireland area. > >Alice Gillihan > > >As a check of "Scotch-Irish" by Hanna -- the records of the undertakers of the Ulster plantation makes clear, there were Beatties in the Cavan Plantation who were Irish Catholics. > > . > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi John, >Thanks. Out of curiosity what do you mean by "the Irish Army" in mid >1600's. The army stationed in Ireland in the 1600s, just after Cromwell. It was British, just like the army in Ireland in the 1600s before Cromwell and during Cromwell. The Confederates had an army in Ireland in the 1640s and 1650s till Cromwell defeated it - a Catholic/Royalist army. Leading up to the struggle between King William and James, the Catholics purged the British army of Protestants in the late 1680s. Actually in closing the gates of Derry, our ancestors were rebelling against the British army, which at that time was largely Catholic. However this war was a European one and is understood more clearly when studied from a European context. The Pope was rooting for King William, after all!! As my ancestor was an officer he wasn't mustered in locally. One purchased commissions most of the time. It really pays to spend a lot of time reading history not only of Ireland but of the kingdom that she was a part of: Great Britain, because so many of her laws and customs were British. Of course Irsih people living in a Gaeltacht who could not speak English could avoid much of it, but this list is about Protestant ancestors who were part of British Irish at some level so you must study it if you want to research in it -- or you will not get very far at all. It's best to study the British army at length as generally a third of the people in it were Irish (of all ethnic groups in more modern times). Detailed accounting records of the officers in the Irish army in the Irish army after Cromwell and before the purge are filmed and in LDS. You can get their names, what they were paid and where they were stationed in Ireland. >it is said he was in Cromwell's >Army. I do know he was Presbyterian. Eh??? Not too likely. Do you know the history of Cromwell??? He had a very bad time with Presbyterians in Scotland. In fact after he defeated them he shipped lots off as forced laborers to the colonies including Massachusetts, New Jersey, and VA. When he went to Ireland to take it back after its ten years with the Confederates (mixed British Royalists/ Catholics), he planned on transporting all the Presbyterians to Tipperary, I think it was. However he quickly learned that the Presbyterians of Ireland were a different breed from the Scots (due to their different history and experience which had created a new ethnic group distinct in values and tradition from Scots: the Ulster Scot!). They were happy to support any Protestant who might help protect them from the Catholics (Irish ones and Royalist British Catholics). Cromwell's commonwealth failed after his death and his enemies wrote history, as always, but in truth, he was a moderate. He crafted a shaky government that lasted during his life and kept the Catholics and Royalists from continuing a civil war with the 'right wing' English Presbyterians, Puritans, Baptists and such. He was the good guy. In Scotland he fought with Scottish nationalists who were Presbyterian too. I've never read a history of the British Civil War that could REALLY make sense of it though I've read lots who tried and most of them admit at the start that they can't really understand it. It was very, very, very complicated -- so I'll stop here before I say something someone disagrees with. The experts disagree on its causes so none of us here will agree <grin>. I got interested in it due to family involvement in England. I also got a book on Cromwell in Ireland that's very interesting. And there's the usual stuff you read on Cromwell in Ireland. Recently an Irishman wrote a book debunking the idea that he massacred civilians at Drogheda and other places. There's apparently no contemporary evidence that he did. (As I'm not a scholar and didn't do this research, I can't argue about it -- I can just point people interested to the book). However largely Cromwell brought his army with him. They were English lads who were paid off in Irish lands. They settled down, married Irish gals, and their grandchildren often didn't speak any English at all and were Catholic. As most of the Ulster land was already held by Protestants, there were few settlements of English there -- most of the escheated lands were in the rest of Ireland. Ditto for the Williamite settlement in the late 1600s. This solved another problem for Cromwell (not for King William though <grin>): his New Model army was the first standing British army. But it was full of radical 'right wing' English Presbyterians, Baptists, independents (Congregationalists), etc. He didn't want them back in England as he had no money to pay them and he was afraid he'd lose control of the unpaid army and they'd stage a coupe and replace him with someone more of their liking. So he settled them in Ireland -- paying them off in land. Many sold to their officers and moved to the colonies, esp. the West Indies. A couple generations later they manifest in the mainland colonies. It's possible your ancestor served in a locally mustered group in the 1640s and 50s. Those musterings are in LDS. They are on film 5 miles from me, but they are not indexed, so it's a page by page search. The more you understand about Ulster the more you get from them, as people mustered in under their local landlords. So if you get the name of the landlord you know about where they were living. Many Presbyterians did fight in King WIlliam's army in the late 1660s, and many defended their homeland at Derry and Enniskillen. So how old was your ancestor?? We're talking 50 year gap here. However don't be misled by modern day armies. My ancestor was presumely born in the late 1730 in Ayre and so was an adult about 1750. He manifests as a young man in the Irish army and did fight with William in the late 1790s when he was quite old. He died coming to America in 1729. In those days defending your country was a life time job <grin>. From his having the cash to purchase a commission I can deduce that he may have been from a gentle background but not the eldest son as he didn't inherit the estate in Scotland. It's possible he was from a merchant family but often they went into the family business. As he was quartermaster, this is a possiblity. The only way to squeeze clues out of family history is to know the history. If a merchant family it was a larger, more established one as it could afford to pay for the commission for a younger son. As part of the British army, my ancestor was posted to Ireland where he apparently finally settled, marrying the sister of a fellow officer. Later the Beatties and the Clintons came to America. His second wife was the granddaughter of one of Cromwell's soldiers. Her family lost the earldom (I think it was an earldom) of Lincolnshire during the British civil war. As they were dissenters (granddad was trusted enough by Cromwell to be an officer) they could not get their title back after 1670 with the Restoration so they were marooned in Ireland. They brought the ring to America in 1729 and the grandson Dewitt Clinton apparently used it to 'seal' early NY laws when he was governor. And apparently that was how the two British generals Clinton discovered their long lost cousins in America. (O'Brien mistakenly IDs these folks as Gaelic Irish in one of his books). The more Irish history I read the more clues I can squeeze from my family history. You can't learn too much about it. It's fascinating. Many primary documents are reproduced in Hanna "The Scotch Irish" that many know about but few have read. We forget here on the list that the standard statement in Irish genealogy classes about pre 1820's Irish genealogy (before ch urch records) is that it can't be done. It can but it takes a lot of work learning about a time and place that were radically different from our world today and its records. What exists, who's in them, and how to get them. It's fascinating stuff at least. NO one's ever said Irish history was dull!! Linda ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Linda - Thanks. Out of curiosity what do you mean by "the Irish Army" in mid 1600's. There was a Polk/Pollock of that era who was also described as having been a subaltern officer in the Army in Ireland, but I don't know which Army that meant. In some accounts it is said he was in Cromwell's Army. I do know he was Presbyterian. John Polk > [Original Message] > From: Linda Merle <merle@mail.fea.net> > To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 7/10/2005 9:39:17 PM > Subject: [Sc-Ir] Beatty > > Hi John, > > Beattys didn't emanate from a single place. There are Beattys > in Scotland and Beattys in Ireland. As a check of "Scotch-Irish" by Hanna -- the records of the undertakers of the Ulster plantation makes clear, there were Beatties in the Cavan Plantation who were Irish Catholics. Some writers of Irish > surname books believe the surname originated in County Meath. > Donnoooo. > > My own ancestor presumedly was Scottish but I do know he > served in the Irish army in the mid 1600s as an officer. > Then he was an officer in King William's army and for that > he was awarded a landgrant, supposedly in County Antrim. > His brother who does not appear in the lists of Irish > officers in the mid 1600s (later the Protestants were > purged) but who is said to have gotten a land grant, got > it in County Down. His lines are very traceable but mine > left, aparently with all family members in 1729. So like > where are these Beatties from <grin>????? One brother > Co Antrim, one Co Down, both Scotland??? These folk got > around. > > So all I'd hazard a guess about yours is "Con's Half" of Ireland <grin>. > > It's possible there are other family members around him > including relatives of the wife, so be sure to research > his entire circle in the hopes of finding clues. > > Best of luck! > > Linda Merle > > Linda - > > > I know you have researched Beatty's. Is there a particular place in Ulster > that they emanated from. I have a Walter Beatty whose roots I am interested > in. He first appears in Cecil County in 1736 when he purchased a piece of > land from one of my ancestors. The deed says he was from Ireland, but > nothing more specific. Any likely candidates? > > > > He sold the land in 1744 and appears in taxlist for Peters township of > Cumberland County in 1753. > > > Thanks - > > > JP > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > > > > --- John Polk --- Havre de Grace MD --- jfpolk@earthlink.net

Hi John, Beattys didn't emanate from a single place. There are Beattys in Scotland and Beattys in Ireland. As a check of "Scotch-Irish" by Hanna -- the records of the undertakers of the Ulster plantation makes clear, there were Beatties in the Cavan Plantation who were Irish Catholics. Some writers of Irish surname books believe the surname originated in County Meath. Donnoooo. My own ancestor presumedly was Scottish but I do know he served in the Irish army in the mid 1600s as an officer. Then he was an officer in King William's army and for that he was awarded a landgrant, supposedly in County Antrim. His brother who does not appear in the lists of Irish officers in the mid 1600s (later the Protestants were purged) but who is said to have gotten a land grant, got it in County Down. His lines are very traceable but mine left, aparently with all family members in 1729. So like where are these Beatties from <grin>????? One brother Co Antrim, one Co Down, both Scotland??? These folk got around. So all I'd hazard a guess about yours is "Con's Half" of Ireland <grin>. It's possible there are other family members around him including relatives of the wife, so be sure to research his entire circle in the hopes of finding clues. Best of luck! Linda Merle Linda - I know you have researched Beatty's. Is there a particular place in Ulster that they emanated from. I have a Walter Beatty whose roots I am interested in. He first appears in Cecil County in 1736 when he purchased a piece of land from one of my ancestors. The deed says he was from Ireland, but nothing more specific. Any likely candidates? He sold the land in 1744 and appears in taxlist for Peters township of Cumberland County in 1753. Thanks - JP ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Linda - I know you have researched Beatty's. Is there a particular place in Ulster that they emanated from. I have a Walter Beatty whose roots I am interested in. He first appears in Cecil County in 1736 when he purchased a piece of land from one of my ancestors. The deed says he was from Ireland, but nothing more specific. Any likely candidates? He sold the land in 1744 and appears in taxlist for Peters township of Cumberland County in 1753. Thanks - JP --- John Polk --- Havre de Grace MD --- jfpolk@earthlink.net

Hi Linda, My best wishes for your move ! My friend and I just moved in November, and it was not easy ! Especially since I am a pack-rat, and always have been ! But, at least we only moved to the next town. My genealogy-boxes ("banker's boxes") are still in a corner. In the small apartment we just moved from, the 25 of them took up a good corner of our living room. I have promised that in our new home they will be in a corner and - disguised ! So, I can't just walk over and pull out a folder of papers anymore ! But, I have heard that my second grandchild will arrive during the winter, so I think my "genealogy time" will be cut in half - again - before next spring arrives ! By the way, I can't remember whether the subject was posted on this List, but I found out that the book, "Family Annals," is not a book. It is a several-volume "manuscript" and only available in certain libraries. (I posted the information on the "Scots-in-Canada" List.) Also, I continue to wait for a response from the County Sligo Heritage Centre about my KERR and HENDERSON ancestors. They received my "application for research" probably several months ago. But, they are a volunteer organization. And, I'd be willing to wait several more months - if my "distant cousins" and I can find out .. who their parents were !! "You can't hurry ..... genealogy !" Enjoy your Sunday ! Betty (near Lowell, MA, USA) P.S. My related ancestors were HANNAH and RITCHIE from both Ireland and Scotland. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Merle" <merle@mail.fea.net> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 10:00 AM Subject: If you got this you are on the Scotch Irish List.... > Hi folks, > > If you get this you are on the Scotch Irish list which is quiet due to the summer doldroms. Many are on vacation apparently. The LDS family history center where I volunteer is empty too. > > I am personally very busy readying my house for the market, packing up stuff getting ready for a video session and hoping the yard dries out enough to mow and hack at vegetation. > Due to the 3 inches of rain we got so far this month, > everything is growing in leaps and bounds. So I am off to find > a home for some books and so on and so forth. It's high stress. > My one client actually hopes that I am working on his genealogy through all of this. Oh I sure do hope to get to it by mid week. > > Anyway for those interested I'll be moving from Massachusetts to the Allegheny/Kiskiminkis Valley (ie where I was born). > It's a lot cheaper to live there so I will buy a small house > outright. I will then grow my genealogy business. As it's > almost all in PA/VA and points south (KY/TN, NC/SC) except > for the Irish and Scottish work, I'll be better situated. > My parents are quite elderly now and while they are in good > health, my dad has outlived any male in his family at 84. > They were coalminers and he's not. One aunt of his lived > to be 105 but Aunt Maggie was Scottish not Scotch Irish so I'm > off topic <grin>. > > Hope to be settled in long before winter. Houses here, > especially cheap ones, sell fast, to priced-out Bostonians, > investors, and first time buyers. Expensive ones don't sell > so fast, so as this is a bargain for someone who can invest > some money and sweat, it should sell. (Shrewsbury, MA, > we're talking about). Once settled I'll locate an excellent > VA library (Morgantown perhaps....it ain't in PGH near as > I can tell...), and maybe talk my customer into continuing to > work with me, in which case I'll be in Tennessee doing some > genealogy-work. Might buy a little something so I can live > in it when I make roadtrips. > > So maybe I'll even make it back to Northern Ireland next > summer. I sure do hope so. > > Linda Merle (SI Admin) > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > > > > > ______________________________

I do not envy the move.. I'm a west of the Mississippi man for live. The Wild West! Yeehaw! :)

Linda: Don't envy your move. I'd like Virginia, as a whole bunch of the ancestors arrived and departed from there. They will carry me out of here on a gurney, if I have any say. I haven't done much SI research for a while. I am doing so many ancestors, I can't keep up. [Well, I started it, and I can't stop!] Thanks for your efforts....don't say it enough, but I appreciate it. Marlene

Hi Linda, My ancestors were born in Ireland and my sources are the Family bible given to my grandmother from her grandfather. They all settled in PA and are buried in the Faggs Manor Presbyterian graveyard. I have the wills and church records but don't know the parents of the ones who came over. For instance, Samuel, b. 1713 was born in northern Ire and married there Sarah Skillen. I believe the children were born there, too. At least Alexander, my ancester was born 1734. His sister, Jane, and Daniel; I don't know. I believe Alex was born in 1734 there; his wife, Ann Porter, daughter of William, was born Tyrone County c. 1750. Their children: I know their bdates but not sure where born. I know son, Andrew wed Margery Young and she was born in Tyrone county according to the Bible. All the others that I wrote about previously were also born in Ireland. Since I can't find them on the ships' lists, I guess they'll have to remain in limbo. Thanks for your advice. Barbara

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Carolyn Hughes" <nanunanu@earthlink.net> Reply-To: nanunanu@earthlink.net Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:01:51 -0700 http://www.irishgenealogy.com/us/pa/places-faggs-manor.htm Hope this helps in the search. --- Carolyn Hughes --- nanunanu@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

I have my ancestors born in northern Ireland but can't find any proof. Has anyone knowledge of the following? Samuel McNeal (later McNeil), born 1713, m. 1733 and died in Chester County PA 3 Jan 1799, buried Faggs Manor Presbyterian graveyard. Wife, Sarah Skillen, b. maybe County Down, Ireland They had Alexander, 1734, Wed Ann Porter born maybe Tyrone County Ireland Jane, wed a Mr. Kyle, probably Joseph Daniel who moved south. I thank any and all in advance who might give me some info. Barbara bjpetree@earthlink.net

Hi Barbara, >I have my ancestors born in northern Ireland but can't find any proof. It's really really hard to get 'proof' for people born in your timeframe as there are very few church records. There were Church of IReland records, but many of our Presbyterian ancestors didn't get married or baptize their children in them. Alas, a third of them burnt in the Four Courts Fire in 1922. Still we are urged to check them if they survive for our parish. Do you have a clue if they married in America or Ireland?? For example, birth dates/places of their children. We're told to research collateral lines by the gurus....one of the reasons is that we can make deductions when we do not have proof. Proof is a 'smoking gun', but just as many murders are solved with circumstantial evidence, ditto for genealogical mysteries. So figure out if the kids were born in Ireland. This may be impossible to do but if you can prove they knew one another in Ulster, then probably he's from near her. >Wife, Sarah Skillen, b. maybe County Down, Ireland If I can find the email addy of a guy I was corresponding with about Skillen, I'll send on. It should (emphasis here on the maybe part <grin>) not be toooo hard to tell if Skills lived in Down by using some fairly standard (alas) Irish 'fuzzy research' methods. Like checking the Tithe Applotment index for them. This was 100 years after yours were born, but it does help to narrow down the area where they were from. McNeil is "too common" for you to easily find without a lot more evidence. Check to see if there were others in Chester Co that y ou can connect him to. What kind of evidence?? Any and all family clues. The names of your kids. Most importantly, do a lot of work to determine if they arrived as a family or not. If the entire family came over, they had some money so they will be easier to find in Ireland than if your ancestor came as an indentured servant, worked off his term, and then set up a household. However it suggests he had an skill -- so what was it? Blacksmith, mason, etc. Unskilled laborers were not really wanted in 18th century America. It's a clue to family class and possibly records back in Ulster. You may have seen the TV shows that profile murderers. You need to do the same thing -- profile this guy and then research to determine what types of records do exist in which he may appear. Worse case there's DNA studies, which, alas, is what most of us will need to use since there are so very few records that name poorer people in Ulster. There are still enough records about for Ireland to keep you going for years researching them, though most of us give up long before that. One fellow I heard talk once, after a life of searching for his ancestors (He was a big wig at the Family History Library in Salt Lake so he had done GOOD research) did find out where they came from. He found them in the index to NIDS (National Index of Documentary Studies) -- one of those scholarly indexes to manscript collections. Clues: his ancestor was a quartermaster for George Washington. Turns out he had been from a merchant family in Drogheda and Dublin. Makes sense if you know what a quartermaster does! So even his military history can give you valuable clues to his origins. If quartermaster he was a educated middle class kinda guy, maybe a merchant. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi folks, If you get this you are on the Scotch Irish list which is quiet due to the summer doldroms. Many are on vacation apparently. The LDS family history center where I volunteer is empty too. I am personally very busy readying my house for the market, packing up stuff getting ready for a video session and hoping the yard dries out enough to mow and hack at vegetation. Due to the 3 inches of rain we got so far this month, everything is growing in leaps and bounds. So I am off to find a home for some books and so on and so forth. It's high stress. My one client actually hopes that I am working on his genealogy through all of this. Oh I sure do hope to get to it by mid week. Anyway for those interested I'll be moving from Massachusetts to the Allegheny/Kiskiminkis Valley (ie where I was born). It's a lot cheaper to live there so I will buy a small house outright. I will then grow my genealogy business. As it's almost all in PA/VA and points south (KY/TN, NC/SC) except for the Irish and Scottish work, I'll be better situated. My parents are quite elderly now and while they are in good health, my dad has outlived any male in his family at 84. They were coalminers and he's not. One aunt of his lived to be 105 but Aunt Maggie was Scottish not Scotch Irish so I'm off topic <grin>. Hope to be settled in long before winter. Houses here, especially cheap ones, sell fast, to priced-out Bostonians, investors, and first time buyers. Expensive ones don't sell so fast, so as this is a bargain for someone who can invest some money and sweat, it should sell. (Shrewsbury, MA, we're talking about). Once settled I'll locate an excellent VA library (Morgantown perhaps....it ain't in PGH near as I can tell...), and maybe talk my customer into continuing to work with me, in which case I'll be in Tennessee doing some genealogy-work. Might buy a little something so I can live in it when I make roadtrips. So maybe I'll even make it back to Northern Ireland next summer. I sure do hope so. Linda Merle (SI Admin) ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi folks new records have been added to the Lurgan Ancestry Website www.lurganancestry.net all records are free to research and copy regards Martin

HANSON ANNOUNCES PROGRESS ON ULSTER-SCOTS ACADEMY Culture Minister, David Hanson MP, has announced a major milestone towards the establishment of an Ulster-Scots Academy. Mr Hanson said: “I am pleased to announce that Government has agreed to support an independent Ulster-Scots Academy with university affiliation. “I believe that the Academy has the broad support of the many individuals and groups who have been campaigning for the Ulster-Scots language to be preserved and developed.” The Minister explained that the £12 million proposal for the Academy stemmed from the Government’s commitments in the Good Friday Agreement 1998 and in the Joint Declaration 2003 between the British and Irish Governments. Mr Hanson continued: “I have established an Implementation Group comprising members of the Ulster-Scots community, Queen’s University and the University of Ulster, chaired by Dr Philip Robinson. The members of the Group have been appointed on an individual basis for their interest and expertise. “It is being set up for a period of up to 18 months to advise on how the Ulster-Scots Academy should be established, and will consult widely. It will also conduct an equality impact assessment of its proposals for the Academy. I look forward to receiving the Group’s proposals in due course.” The Minister added that the establishment of the Academy would not compromise the statutory remit of the Ulster-Scots Agency to promote the Ulster-Scots language but would add to the totality of resources available for the language’s better promotion.

Dear Scotch-Irish L: The announcement below of a forthcoming conference should have wide interest to members of this list and well beyond academia. We anticipate having one or two sessions on genealogy in addition to the offereing on many other topics, and hope to see some of you in Knoxville next summer. (Linda, we would certainly be open to helping to publicize this list, if you want new members.) With regards Michael Montgomery University of South Carolina CALL FOR PAPERS - Please Post or Distribute Sixteenth Biennial Ulster-American Heritage Symposium Conference Theme: Three Centuries of Ulster-American History, Tradition, and Shared Experience Wednesday, June 28 - Saturday, July 1, 2006 The East Tennessee History Center is pleased to announce that it will host the Sixteenth Ulster-American Heritage Symposium in Knoxville, Tennessee. Since 1976 the Symposium has met every two years at a university or museum in Northern Ireland or the United States in order to encourage and promote the scholarly study and public awareness of connections between Ulster and North America in all their dimensions. While programs in the past have provided the premier forum for historians to discuss the colonial-era immigration from Ulster and the settlement of the American interior and Southeast, the Ulster-American Heritage Symposium is by tradition and design inter-disciplinary, featuring papers on history, language and literature, folklore and folklife, archaeology, economics, religion, social and political relations, and music. Next year's Symposium seeks to broaden the program offerings further by seeking scholarly papers on artistic traditions of all kinds, travel and tourism, and the American GI experience in Northern Ireland in the World War Two, among other topics. Original papers from any field that concern relations, links, and parallels between Ulster and North America over the past three hundred years are invited for presentation. Knoxville promises to be an excellent venue for the Symposium. In the Scotch-Irish/Scots-Irish heartland of the country, it lies less than an hour from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park and other major attractions. Comprising the East Tennessee Historical Society, the East Tennessee History Museum, and the McClung Historical Collection (a major genealogical library), the East Tennessee History Center has recently opened a new twenty-million-dollar facility in downtown Knoxville. The Museum's signature exhibit "Voices of the Land: The People of East Tennessee" will open in January 2006. Special events planned for the Symposium will include => Plenary address "Ulster Immigrants and the Settlement of Tennessee," by Walter Durham, Tennessee State Historian => Tour and banquet at Ramsey House, a late-18th-century historic home and grounds in Marbledale, Tennessee => Plenary address on early architecture: "Stone Houses of Bluegrass Kentucky: Dwellings of the Ulster Gentry, 1780-1830" by Carolyn Murray-Wooley => Plenary session on the American GI experience in Northern Ireland in World War Two => Bluegrass concert at Jubilee Community Arts Center in Knoxville To propose a paper at the conference, please send by DECEMBER 1, 2005 three copies of a 250-word abstract with a cover letter indicating your name, postal and email addresses, institutional affiliation (if any), equipment needs, and a one-sentence biographical note, to Program Committee, 16th Ulster-American Heritage Symposium c/o East Tennessee Historical Society PO Box 1629 Knoxville, TN 37901-1629 Address inquiries to the Co-Chairs of the Program Committee: Michael Montgomery (ullans@yahoo.com) or Michael Toomey (toomey@east-tennessee-history.org). Notice of acceptance will be made no later than January 15, 2006, at which time precentors will also receive information on hotels and local arrangements. Conference updates will be posted at www.east-tennessee-history.org ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

I do love a good list fight. Can I please book a ringside seat for the duration. (And I hope this one will be allowed to play itself out rather than be stopped prematurely. The reason: it illustrates so well one of the characteristics of the Scotch-Irish: a tendency to get it all wrong, wilfully misunderstand everyone else involved, and then go off in a huff, ie move on) John you seem to have some definite ideas on what a list like this should involve which have as many limitations on them as those you claim Linda to be espousing. Perhaps you might like to expand on just what you mean by saying that "I certainly do not intend to be directed or not-tolerated by any anglican-like authority." As an Anglican myself I rather suspect you are showing your own prejudices in a way I find offensive. So when it comes to "tolerance" I hope you will ask for mine. In the end, it is up to the List Administrator to do the administering, and anyone who doesn't like that can do what the Scotch-Irish have traditionally done, ie move on and start afresh further along the trail. Charlie John Patterson wrote: > Dear Linda, > > I have had some time to think about your message and I am sorry if my first > response, earlier today, implied that maybe I should move on. > > I appreciate the work that you do with the mailing list and the Ulster > research that you support and I expect that many other in the mailing list > do also. However, there are a few vital points that I would like to make > concerning your statements: > > [1] I was only responding to your earlier email that indicated that things > in the list were a little slow. Given the responses that I have received, > just today, in regard to my posting and with respect to your response, I > would say that I have supported your request to generate some activity > within the list. > > But, I was surprised by the immediate attempt at complete censorship. I > believe that you are the List Administrator; not the list owner or the > ecclesiastic authority concerned with ensuring the intellectual integrity of > the list. Rootsweb.com says that your responsibilities and limitations are > as follows: > > You are encouraged to: > > - Prompt discussions on your list when it is in a lull. > - Promote your list and encourage new subscribers. > - Assist users when necessary or possible. > - Intervene to resolve problems that are detrimental to your list. > - Gateway your list with allied message boards. > > You may not: > > - Change the overall focus/topic of the list. For example, you may not > change a list that focuses on a given surname to exclude all except those > from a specific lineage or region. You would need to request a second list > with those restrictions if such was your goal. > > - Close your list by unsubscribing everyone, or by refusing to allow anyone > to subscribe. > > - Archive your list anywhere other than RootsWeb without prior permission. > > [2] Regarding your suggestion that I find or start another list: I believe > the term Scotch-Irish first came to be used in the United States, not > Ulster. And I submit that anything regarding the culture, language, history > or background of the Scotch-Irish (regardless of location or origin) > qualifies for discussion in a Scotch-Irish forum or mailing list. > > You might like to request or adopt a mailing list named Ulster History, or > Northern Ireland Protestants, or limited focus descendants of Presbyterians > from the Counties of Northern Ireland. In those named forums your comments > might be appropriate. > > But in a "Scotch-Irish" forum, about any question about a subject that might > enhance the understanding of the Scotch-Irish people submitted by a member > who is struggling to learn WILL BE TOLERATED. > > [3] And finally, the use of the word tolerate in your email was unfortunate. > > >>>A Scotch-Irish man/woman does not tolerate not being tolerated.<<< > > That should have been obvious in the 1600s, but was certainly unavoidably > clear to everyone in the Commonwealth by the late 1700s. > > I believe you intended the third definition of the word from the Oxford > English Dictionary: 3. To bear without repugnance, to allow intellectually, > or in taste, sentiment, or principle; to put up with. > > So, "will not be tolerated" must mean: Will not be born without repugnance > or will not be put up with. > > I certainly do not intend to be directed or not-tolerated by any > anglican-like authority. I will submit to the will of the list members; as > any good Scotch-Irish descendant would. But, I doubt, from the gender of my > most recent communications with some members in the Scotch-Irish list, that > limiting the subject of Scotch-Irish heritage to your boundaries is > necessary. > > Sincerely, > > John Patterson > Great Bridge, Virginia > > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda Merle [mailto:merle@mail.fea.net] > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:40 AM > To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Britons and Scotch-Irish > > Hi John and others, > > This list was formed many years ago for one purpose: to help us find the > origins of ancestors in Ulster. It's helped me a lot and I think we've all > helped one another. > > The topics you are studying are good ones and they help give you a sense of > the history. Without a notion of the history, you will miss clues or > misinterpret them. Hopefully, you are studying 'real history' and not the > foggy stuff meant to entertain. [The real history is what led to the > realization that Scot-Irish are British - not the English] > > But this stuff here is off topic: > > >(2) Pattersons/Patersons in Cunningham (near Ayrshire) > > [These were two or three of the very first Scot-Irish settlers in the Ulster > Plantation!] > > Join a Scottish list to do research in Scotland. Not here. > > These are also off topic: > > >(3) The British Kingdoms of Strathclyde, Rheged and Gododdin > > [I thought it was fascinating that these Kingdoms and languages were part of > our heritage and most people don't know about them] > > >(4) And Cumbric (a Brythonic language related to Welsh) and an early > >language of "Cumbria" [possibly the language of the Scot-Irish before the > English tried to teach them to speak English and a mongrel form (Scots) > arose.] > > >Anyone interested in discussing / sharing information in these difficult > >areas of research feel free to contact me directly. We can post > >information that becomes interesting > > NOT HERE YOU DON'T. There's plenty of lists that would welcome it, but none > of your explorations of these areas will help our genealogy. So you'll have > to find some other lists (www.rootsweb.com) or start one yourself. It's not > too painful to do so. Highly recommended. Let us know if you do. However > Rootsweb says it's my job to keep us on track and that I will do. > > Especially, NO SCOTTISH POSTS. We've seen in the past that people have a > very difficult time grasping one of the basic principles of genealogy: > records are locale-based. Scotland is a different country from Ireland and > doing genealogy there (I DO A LOT both personally and professionally) is > DIFFERENT from research in Ireland (I do a lot there too, both ways). > You must read different books, take different courses and lurk on different > lists. NOT HERE. This is an Ulster centric list for researching Ulster and > its diaspora. It's a topic that is difficult to get your arms around. > > Time to end this post. I want to remind members that off topic posts will > not be tolerated. > > Linda Merle Scotch Irish Admin > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > >

Gordon, Please! That is too much. Mary Lou Tannich -----Original Message----- From: Scotch-Irish-L-request@rootsweb.com [mailto:Scotch-Irish-L-request@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of gordon crooks Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 3:15 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Sc-Ir] Hoof and mouth desease Linda: You need to see a podiatrist for your ailment. Gordon

Linda, I think you have made yourself perfectly clear and those of us like myself, who have appreciated the work you have done on this list for several years now, do not need any more convincing that you are correct. So do not feel the need to respond or say anything further on the matter of what is and is not off list. It is your judgement and there are always grey areas but if the boundaries of genealogy are pushed too far then we all might as well start with a study of Adam and Eve. John should confine himself to his first topic: Early Ulster Plantation Settlers. Give him his due however, to be so strident and so easily offended, he must, like myself, be a true Scotch-Irishman. As for "Cumbric" - Ulster says No! Regards, Boyd

In a message dated 6/12/05 6:35:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marylander@bellsouth.net writes: > But, Linda, as much as I enjoy your information, your knowledge, you do > come on a bit strong sometimes and disregard that sometimes the writer considers > his question appropriate for the list whether you do or not. Instead of > chewing out this particular writer, rudely all but crawling through the air and > strangling him, couldn't you have simply offered him help to start a new > Rootsweb list > for the subjects he (and apparently others who spoke up) is interested in? But it is much more entertaining this way...for those of us who are *not* in the crossfire!