Hi folks, I found it (computer in worse shape than my closet!). This URL has a short history from the mainstream (whatever they call themselves) point of view and includes a family tree and links to various Presbyterian church denominations: http://history.pcusa.org/pres_hist/briefhist.html Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi folks, today I was lurking on this Greene County, TN site: http://www.genealogyforyou.com/usa/tennessee/greene/ I explored the link Ancestor Homeland Locator: http://pages.xtn.net/~wconduff/ This guy says he can help locate my ancestral home. Now that's downright scary after looking at his pictures. If you have any real estate friends or enemies, they'll love this guy's website. You gotta wonder what HIS home looks like!!! I don't think I want to know.... However I do feel much better about my own place now. Until it gets hit by a meteor, I don't think he'll want a photie of it on his website though. Linda ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

The quick answer is "lots". If Linda doesn't mind me advertising another rootsweb list, there is one called Presbyterian. It is very quiet, but there is in its archives a number of plots of the rich variety of Presbyterianism in America. Remember that the PC (USA) is itself a recent union, and even if your grandfather in law was main line, the question would have been which main line? As I say, Presbyterian (I think that is its name, I can't find the address I signed up with it several computers ago and recently it has been very quiet) Might give you the information which you want. Edward Andrews -----Original Message----- From: AGarvin224@aol.com [mailto:AGarvin224@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:23 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of In a message dated 8/21/05 2:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, N.E.Parkes@btinternet.com writes: > Thank you for (especially Rev Andrews, Linda and Robert of Ulster Ancestry) > > for giving us a precise summary of the several shades of Presbyterianism > which have been, and still are, present in our society here. I know this might not be the place for theology, but - my grandfather-in-law was a Scots-Irish Presbyterian clergyman, who served multiple congregations in the American midwest. I thought there was *one* Presbyterian Church, which I guess would be the more "mainline" Presbyterian Church USA (?). But I have recently learned of the Reformed Presbyterian Church and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church - are there others? I hate to show my ignorance by asking my Presbyterian friends, so thanks in advance for any help you may give - Ann

Dear all, Thank you for (especially Rev Andrews, Linda and Robert of Ulster Ancestry) for giving us a precise summary of the several shades of Presbyterianism which have been, and still are, present in our society here. Whilst researching the CHESTNUT family of my great-grandmother (Jane ca.1855 - 1914) the frequent splits in the Presbyterian Church were apparent. The family seemed to worship at Toberdoney Presbyterian Church in Billy Parish, North Antrim. This church is described in the Ordnance Survey memoirs of 1837 as "An Original Secession Church". At some date in the early/mid 1800s there was a split and part of the congregation set up a church at Benvardin. Probably as a result of this split, the church records were lost. Benvardin church does not now exist. Sandra: Another point concerns burials directly. The right to bury in a particular church burying ground belongs to the family. I think that it passes to the youngest surviving male (of full age - over 21) of the family. This means that a large plot may continue to be used by family members even though the religion has changed since the rights were granted. My lot had such rights at Mosside Presbyterian Church, County Antrim, granted in the latter half of the 1800s. The family continued to bury there until the mid-1950s even though they had moved to the other side of Ballymoney by then. Norman http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlantbp/ for the inscriptions at the old burying ground at Billy Parish Church, County Antrim.

I'm quite surprised that my notes have reached the Gaelic League in Pittsburgh.;-) As so often with the Scots Irish you need to begin the story in Scotland (and to a lesser extent England). This is very much history lite, and many, many volumes could and have been written on each of the events which I describe (and many more which I have skipped) While the Irish Presbyterians like to push their close connection with the Church of Scotland, it must be remembered that the Plantations of Ulster which gave Irish Presbyterianism life also included an English element, and that some of these English settlers were English Puritans. Thus it was that the Irish Presbyterians contained some of the more extreme Puritan elements than the Church in Scotland (which at the time of the plantation was Episcopalian any way) However the Scottish system of Bishop in Presbytery didn't offend anyone and the two parties rubbed along until Charles I decided that he would get things to his (or Laud's) liking. Subsequent events led to the War of the Three Kingdoms, the writing of the Westminster Documents, http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html (We must remember that there was much more than the Confession) and the Commonwealth. The English occupation of Scotland, the Killing Times and the final "victory" of Presbyterianism In Ireland on the other hand, reflected the situation of England. Remember the Pilgrim Fathers left England in 1620. Puritans were not the favourite with the Church of Ireland (a whole owned subsidiary of the Church of England) and after 1625 life for Puritans and Presbyterians became difficult. When Wentworth / Strafford was Lord Deputy, life for the Presbyterians became difficult. This was the time of the Eagle Wing, and the withdrawal of many Scots to Scotland, especially after the problem about subscribing to the National Covenant. The Ulster Colony experienced the 1641 rising, and was rescued by a Scottish Army which saw the beginning of a Presbytery and hence official Presbyterianism in Ireland. They experienced the next 60 years of war, famine, and persecution, which is extremely important for the folk history of the community. We will ignore this. It is enough for us to know that by 1700 Irish Presbyterians, even though they had fought for the "winning" side, were still a persecuted minority, little better off than the Roman Catholics. They did have one advantage, Scotland was only 12 miles away, and in Scotland they were part of the Established Church of Scotland which by this time was Presbyterian. Sorry Linda the Covenanters are in Scottish terms a complete irrelevance at this stage and from then on. The Covenanters had as their main plank a political situation that they objected to the King not taking the Covenant, rather than any real theological difference from the Church of Scotland at that time. As Non Anglicans were barred from Trinity College Dublin, and in any case in contemporary travelling terms (you got a boat) Glasgow was closer than Dublin, Irish Presbyterian candidates for ministry went to Scotland (usually Glasgow) for their training. Here they got caught up in the contemporary debates in Scotland, which involved debates about the nature of Jesus. In a way this "Sampson affair" which was to do with a Professor being accused of Heresy was over taken by the "Marrow of Modern Divinity Case". This was a row about the nature of election. The eventual fall out of these disputes in the 1720s gave the theological impetus in part to the Original Succession in Scotland which took place in the 1730s (officially 1733.) Still with me? The Irish people who had followed the more liberal side in the Sampson case wondered to what extent the Church should be bound by a man made historical creed. In other words there was a question of Subscription to the Westminster Confession. (This wasn't an issue as such in Scotland as subscription to the confession was a legal requirement for those who wanted to hold office in Church or broadly the State.) The problem was that part of the issue about subscription for some, was the question of the relationship between Jesus Christ and God. Was in fact Jesus God, or man, or both? (This is a debate going back to the early days of the Church but it was officially solved at the Council of Nicaea in 325) The leader of the loosing side was a man called Arius. Those therefore who did not want to subscribe to the confession were denounced as being Arians. This wasn't completely true. The Non subscribers probably weren't quire sure what they believed, or what the implications of the name calling was. Thus it was, "orthodox" Presbyterianism was divided over subscription or Arianism and at the same time was in conflict with the supporters of the Secessionist movement which was imported from Scotland There was a complicated series of what were basically administrative groupings with Presbyteries and Synods taking up one side or another. Ultimately there arose a champion of orthodoxy, Henry Cook who eventually brought the Irish Presbyterians into the Unionist fold, and managed the development of the Presbyterian Church which encompassed the Orthodox and the Secessionists at the cost of losing the Non Subscribing. Sorry that this is so vague, but I have recently moved, and I can't get access to my Irish History books, and this is from memory. While I haven't got the PhD with which Linda credits me, strangely enough the first Academic Lecture which I attended as an undergraduate was partly on this very topic. I went to Magee University College /Derry in 1965, the year that the college was celebrating its Centenary. The initial lecture in the Faculty of Divinity was by Dr Findlay Holmes on the history of the College. This covered the whole non- subscribing story (the lecture actually was part of a series if I remember right) The whole question of the setting up of a College for training Presbyterian ministers in Ireland was bedevilled by the whole Non Subscribing controversy, for of course there were those who didn't want Irish students to go to Scotland to get dangerous radical ideas. At the same time it was important to keep Irish students from being contaminated at home. The first two attempts to found colleges partly failed. The first attempt in the 1780s produced Belfast Royal Academy probably Ulster's premier co-ed Grammar School (but then I'm biased I'm a former pupil. The second, now Royal Belfast Academical Institution which was founded in 1810. In 1853 a College was built in Belfast and in 1865 one on /Derry. The result was that any history of the college required an understanding of the question we are now debating. What has this got to do with Genealogy? First of all in helps us to understand terms which at times are confusing. Secondly it helps with understanding where records might be. Thirdly, for those who are old S-I your ancestors may well have moved to America at the time when this dispute was still very much alive. You may have taken part of it with you to America. What happened in the S-I communities in America (about which I know little) may have had their roots in the various factions within Irish Presbyterianism. Remember however that the two systems (or three if you want to include Scotland) all went in radically different directions. To take an example of Linda's beloved Covenanters. In Scotland, they are down to (and these figures are from memory) 2 or three Congregations with well under 100 members. They are shrinking. In Ireland the Reformed Presbyterian Church is quite strong, with almost 40 congregations, and 4,000 are connected to it. It claims to be growing. In America the Reformed Presbyterian Church seems to be in good heart. What about the Non subscribing Presbyterian Church then? Well, you're probably as well to look at their Website http://www.nspresbyterian.org/ this will give you some idea where they are and where they are coming from. You will also find pictures of all their churches. Edward Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Linda Merle [mailto:merle@mail.fea.net] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 4:22 AM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of Hi Sandra, Where's the Rev. Andrews?? Help! I think but stand to be corrected by our resident guru (Rev Andrews) that this might well be the same thing. The subscription was to the Westminster Confession of faith of 1646. http://www.pcanet.org/general/cof_contents.htm Arianism http://web.ukonline.co.uk/pbrooke/p&t/Northern%20Ireland/controversies/ch5 Actually I found an explanation by the Rev. Andrews on another list here: http://hometown.aol.com/cngaeilge/presbyterian.htm We have now a notion of religion in Northern Ireland as being very conservative but actually it was long a hotbed of innovation and controversy, I suspect (but stand to be corrected by the Rev Andrews <grin>) because the established church was so weak. In Scotland the established church was Presbyterian and while there was plenty of controversy there, the established church was strong enough to suppress enough controversy that the Covenantors almost died out there (but did well in Ireland and the USA). In NI you have non subscribing synods (Antrim) -- hotbeds of wild ideas like Unitarianism. You also had healthy groups of Quakers and Methodists and settlings of Moravians -- more diversity than in Scotland, though I might be wrong. The Rev. Andrews is sure to tell us if I am ! (He's got a Phd in these things). So some of the nonsubscribers may have become Unitarians... we'll have to see what he says to be sure. >One set of records say they are buried in the Unitarian graveyard in >Downpatrick, the other says they're in the Non-subscribing Presbyterian >Graveyard. The other possibility is that the building changed. There's a case in Antrim where the burials are calls "Methodist", but before that the congregation (and so the dead people) were Seceders. If you know surnames in north/central Antrim, you can tell that in a moment. But they are published as Methodist burial records as the church building became Methodist. I think there's a short version of the Westminister Confession but I can't find it on the Internet. I did find it for sale! Westminster Confession of Faith SUPER SALE Here's a short history of confessions: http://www.bible-researcher.com/confessions.html Here's a historical presentation of the history of the confession (not by the Rev. Andrews): http://www.cresourcei.org/creedwestminster.html Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

With the exception of the Cumberland Presbytery at the time. Don't know what's going on with that now. Am sort of out of touch since the 'Joining for the Journey' happened in 1986. Harriett Schultz ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Andrews To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:30 PM Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of The quick answer is "lots". If Linda doesn't mind me advertising another rootsweb list, there is one called Presbyterian. It is very quiet, but there is in its archives a number of plots of the rich variety of Presbyterianism in America. Remember that the PC (USA) is itself a recent union, and even if your grandfather in law was main line, the question would have been which main line? As I say, Presbyterian (I think that is its name, I can't find the address I signed up with it several computers ago and recently it has been very quiet) Might give you the information which you want. Edward Andrews -----Original Message----- From: AGarvin224@aol.com [mailto:AGarvin224@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:23 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of In a message dated 8/21/05 2:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, N.E.Parkes@btinternet.com writes: > Thank you for (especially Rev Andrews, Linda and Robert of Ulster Ancestry) > > for giving us a precise summary of the several shades of Presbyterianism > which have been, and still are, present in our society here. I know this might not be the place for theology, but - my grandfather-in-law was a Scots-Irish Presbyterian clergyman, who served multiple congregations in the American midwest. I thought there was *one* Presbyterian Church, which I guess would be the more "mainline" Presbyterian Church USA (?). But I have recently learned of the Reformed Presbyterian Church and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church - are there others? I hate to show my ignorance by asking my Presbyterian friends, so thanks in advance for any help you may give - Ann

Hello Sandra, RE: Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church i.e. they did not subscribe to the ‘Westminster Confession of Faith’ – this resulted from a dispute within Presbyterianism in the 1820s between Dr. Henry Cooke who held ‘orthodox Presbyterian’ views and Dr. Henry Montgomery who held ‘liberal’ views i.e. Arian/Unitarian – not believing in the Deity of Christ. As a result the Non-Subscribing Presbyterians ‘split’ and formed their own ‘Remonstrant Synod’ in 1830. best regards Robert www.ulsterancestry.com >From: "Sandra L More" <sandramore@sbcglobal.net> >Reply-To: "Sandra L More" <sandramore@sbcglobal.net> >To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of >Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:43:47 -0700 > >I've got a couple of family members with burial records that conflict -- I >think. > >One set of records say they are buried in the Unitarian graveyard in >Downpatrick, the other says they're in the Non-subscribing Presbyterian >Graveyard. > >Are these different terms for the same thing? What exactly *is* a >non-subscribing presbyterian? > >Thanks everyone, > >Sandra >-- >Sandra L. More >more@unr.nevada.edu >sandramore@sbcglobal.net >-------------------------------------------- >"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because >we do not dare that they are difficult." >--Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman playwright > > _________________________________________________________________ Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

In a message dated 8/21/05 2:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, N.E.Parkes@btinternet.com writes: > Thank you for (especially Rev Andrews, Linda and Robert of Ulster Ancestry) > > for giving us a precise summary of the several shades of Presbyterianism > which have been, and still are, present in our society here. I know this might not be the place for theology, but - my grandfather-in-law was a Scots-Irish Presbyterian clergyman, who served multiple congregations in the American midwest. I thought there was *one* Presbyterian Church, which I guess would be the more "mainline" Presbyterian Church USA (?). But I have recently learned of the Reformed Presbyterian Church and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church - are there others? I hate to show my ignorance by asking my Presbyterian friends, so thanks in advance for any help you may give - Ann

Hi folks, Since it's quiet, I'll share a story of religion. My grandfather Walter Anderson considered himself "pure Scotch Irish". He was a tall red haired man of violent temper who probably descended from the highlanders brought to Ulster by the McDonalds in the 1550s. He ate corn pone and shot and ate possum and anything else he could shoot off his back porch. Though his attic was filled with old Covenantor literature left by his parents, he was not a church going man. Grandpa particularly hated the English. He'd avoided somehow hearing that the Revolution had ended. Therefore my mother passed my dad (half English, half Scots) off as Welsh when she married him to ensure he survived the reception. To this day we've not told that side of the family he's half English. A number of years ago my sister and mother found in the attic a book belonging to his grandmother Mary Ann Culmer. We'd always been told she was Scots. This book was the works of an old English Puritan named John Flavel. His works are now on the Internet, for those of you with chronic insomnia..... This work was dog eared and worn and clearly every page of it had been read and studied in detail by Mary Ann or someone. Yet the first page alone put us to sleep. Mary Ann had never gone to college or probably even high school, but she was able to read it. However we had a strange feeling of foreboding. Before long we had learned the truth: through Mary Ann, grandpa was probably descended from the Plantagenets himself. It was so lucky he was dead. Furthermore through her he was related to Blue Dick Culmer, one of Cromwell's generals: http://www.digiserve.com/peter/bdick1.htm So....you never know what religion your ancestors or what they were up to 'way back then'. Like so many other Scotch Irish, grandpa had an Englishman in his own closet or woodpile...whichever <grin>!! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Gavin, The list is Presbyterian-l which can be got at www.rootsweb.com . This Url has all the religious lists at Rootsweb: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Religion/ Dissenting Presbyterian groups are very important in the diaspora though not so significant in numbers or historic significance in Scotland. Besides splitting, they joined up too. The three 'main' groups are: The orthodox, mainstream ones Reformed Presbyterians (sometimes calling themselves Covenantors) And the Seceders, who often named their churches in the USA "Associate". Where it gets confusing is they all have different histories. So if you read that the Rev. Charles Clinton Beattie (a relative of mine) was the first missionary west of the Alleghenies, this is the RP story. Some mainstream Presbyies tell it that way. Some don't. Some name other guys. THen you read that such and such an area was in such and such a presbytery but some other history contradicts it. VERY confusing. Our website has links to several of the main branches. Please don't think you can go to PHiladelphia to find all the records. No way. Many small groups deposited elsewhere. The RP church in Pittsburgh in their seminary. That's the 1/3rd that remained after the 1834 split. The 2/3rds that left may have deposited in Indiana or Ill...I forget. It's onthe webpages. http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle . The several Pittsburgh seminary libraries contain immense amounts of genealogical material. Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Edward Andrews" <edward.andrews@btinternet.com> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:48 +0100 > The quick answer is "lots". > If Linda doesn't mind me advertising another rootsweb list, there is one >called Presbyterian. It is very quiet, but there is in its archives a number >of plots of the rich variety of Presbyterianism in America. > Remember that the PC (USA) is itself a recent union, and even if your >grandfather in law was main line, the question would have been which main >line? > As I say, Presbyterian (I think that is its name, I can't find the address >I signed up with it several computers ago and recently it has been very >quiet) Might give you the information which you want. >Edward Andrews > >-----Original Message----- >From: AGarvin224@aol.com [mailto:AGarvin224@aol.com] >Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:23 PM >To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of > >In a message dated 8/21/05 2:39:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >N.E.Parkes@btinternet.com writes: > > >> Thank you for (especially Rev Andrews, Linda and Robert of Ulster >Ancestry) >> >> for giving us a precise summary of the several shades of Presbyterianism >> which have been, and still are, present in our society here. > >I know this might not be the place for theology, but - my grandfather-in-law > >was a Scots-Irish Presbyterian clergyman, who served multiple congregations >in >the American midwest. I thought there was *one* Presbyterian Church, which >I >guess would be the more "mainline" Presbyterian Church USA (?). But I have >recently learned of the Reformed Presbyterian Church and the Evangelical >Presbyterian Church - are there others? I hate to show my ignorance by >asking my >Presbyterian friends, so thanks in advance for any help you may give - >Ann > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

> > Thank you for (especially Rev Andrews, Linda and Robert of Ulster > Ancestry) for giving us a precise summary of the several shades of > Presbyterianism which have been, and still are, present in our society > here. Yes, thanks very much! And thanks to Norman for adding his points below. I now have a much better idea of how it all worked and why. Sandra > Sandra: Another point concerns burials directly. The right to bury in a > particular church burying ground belongs to the family. I think that it > passes to the youngest surviving male (of full age - over 21) of the > family. This means that a large plot may continue to be used by family > members even though the religion has changed since the rights were > granted. My lot had such rights at Mosside Presbyterian Church, County > Antrim, granted in the latter half of the 1800s. The family continued to > bury there until the mid-1950s even though they had moved to the other > side of Ballymoney by then. > > Norman > http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlantbp/ for the inscriptions at the old burying > ground at Billy Parish Church, County Antrim. >

Sorry forgot to reply all Edward -----Original Message----- From: Edward Andrews [mailto:edward.andrews@btinternet.com] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 8:40 AM To: 'Sandra L More' Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of As Linda said, in Ulster the Unitarians and the Non-subscribing Presbyterians are the same thing. (Though it is important to note that the Non-subscribers are not necessarily Unitarians, though some are.) For ease of people following the discussion I will now reply to Linda's post. Edward Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Sandra L More [mailto:sandramore@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:44 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Sc-Ir] Religious question sort of I've got a couple of family members with burial records that conflict -- I think. One set of records say they are buried in the Unitarian graveyard in Downpatrick, the other says they're in the Non-subscribing Presbyterian Graveyard. Are these different terms for the same thing? What exactly *is* a non-subscribing presbyterian? Thanks everyone, Sandra -- Sandra L. More more@unr.nevada.edu sandramore@sbcglobal.net -------------------------------------------- "It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that they are difficult." --Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman playwright

Hi Sandra, Where's the Rev. Andrews?? Help! I think but stand to be corrected by our resident guru (Rev Andrews) that this might well be the same thing. The subscription was to the Westminster Confession of faith of 1646. http://www.pcanet.org/general/cof_contents.htm Arianism http://web.ukonline.co.uk/pbrooke/p&t/Northern%20Ireland/controversies/ch5 Actually I found an explanation by the Rev. Andrews on another list here: http://hometown.aol.com/cngaeilge/presbyterian.htm We have now a notion of religion in Northern Ireland as being very conservative but actually it was long a hotbed of innovation and controversy, I suspect (but stand to be corrected by the Rev Andrews <grin>) because the established church was so weak. In Scotland the established church was Presbyterian and while there was plenty of controversy there, the established church was strong enough to suppress enough controversy that the Covenantors almost died out there (but did well in Ireland and the USA). In NI you have non subscribing synods (Antrim) -- hotbeds of wild ideas like Unitarianism. You also had healthy groups of Quakers and Methodists and settlings of Moravians -- more diversity than in Scotland, though I might be wrong. The Rev. Andrews is sure to tell us if I am ! (He's got a Phd in these things). So some of the nonsubscribers may have become Unitarians... we'll have to see what he says to be sure. >One set of records say they are buried in the Unitarian graveyard in >Downpatrick, the other says they're in the Non-subscribing Presbyterian >Graveyard. The other possibility is that the building changed. There's a case in Antrim where the burials are calls "Methodist", but before that the congregation (and so the dead people) were Seceders. If you know surnames in north/central Antrim, you can tell that in a moment. But they are published as Methodist burial records as the church building became Methodist. I think there's a short version of the Westminister Confession but I can't find it on the Internet. I did find it for sale! Westminster Confession of Faith SUPER SALE Here's a short history of confessions: http://www.bible-researcher.com/confessions.html Here's a historical presentation of the history of the confession (not by the Rev. Andrews): http://www.cresourcei.org/creedwestminster.html Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

I've got a couple of family members with burial records that conflict -- I think. One set of records say they are buried in the Unitarian graveyard in Downpatrick, the other says they're in the Non-subscribing Presbyterian Graveyard. Are these different terms for the same thing? What exactly *is* a non-subscribing presbyterian? Thanks everyone, Sandra -- Sandra L. More more@unr.nevada.edu sandramore@sbcglobal.net -------------------------------------------- "It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that they are difficult." --Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman playwright

Newsletter _www.newsletter.co.uk_ (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/) 16th July 2005 Desecration in Donegal THE Church of Ireland bishop of Derry and Raphoe, the Rev Ken Good, has condemned the desecration of headstones in the Clonleigh parish cemetery, near Lifford in Co Donegal, at the weekend. "The 11 badly-damaged headstones, many of which are over 200 years old, are an irreplaceable part of the heritage, not just of the Church of Ireland, but of the whole community in Lifford," he said. "The Church of Ireland community greatly appreciates the support of people of all denominations who have spoken publicly of their outrage at what has happened."

HI again. Looks like I need to correct the author of the book I mentioned. The name is Murtie Jean Clark. It is three volumes now and VA seems to be covered in Vol. 2. That's what I get from going on memory!! Sorry. Kathy -----Original Message----- From: phyllis jacobson [mailto:mjacobson11@wi.rr.com] Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 3:17 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Sc-Ir] Loyalists Is there a Loyalists list that I could access free? I suspect my Stuart/Stewart family in the Sussex Co., Virginia (late 1600's) were Loyalists. Thanks, Phyllis Stuart-Jacobson

For those interested, there are many websites relating to the United Empire Loyalists. One that could be checked out is <uelac.org> Many proven descendants use the letters "UEL" following their name. Ray Kinkaid Barrie, Ontario

Try : ttp://olivetreegenealogy.com/index.shtml Also email the owner she is very knowledgeable. On Aug 19, 2005, at 4:17 PM, phyllis jacobson wrote: > Is there a Loyalists list that I could access free? > I suspect my Stuart/Stewart family in the Sussex Co., Virginia (late > 1600's) were Loyalists. > > Thanks, > > Phyllis Stuart-Jacobson > > ____________________________________ "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

There is a book by Murtie that has some information on Loyalists of the Southern Campaign, but that may not be the exact title and I'm not sure how VA would have been categorized in relation to it. Lots of S-I. I might suggest that we need to remember that it wasn't really a matter of "patriotism" to these folks. What they legally belonged to was Britain! They may have frankly been revolutionaries, however, and, as was said, about 1/3 were. Many S-I held their land by grant from the British King. They feared, with some justice, that their land would be forfeit if they joined the "rebels" and lost -- regardless of their political beliefs. The net result was that a big bunch of folks tried to stay out of it as long as possible, but may have had some service with the colonial (British) militia. At this point, many (most?) of us have lines on both sides of that conflict. Also it's worth noting that some "missing" links may be loyalists who did run afoul of their neighbors either before or after the Revolution and took off for Canada, Barbados or even Florida. Some even returned to Great Britain. It's worth a look anyway. Kathy Kirk, Birmingham, AL -----Original Message----- From: phyllis jacobson [mailto:mjacobson11@wi.rr.com] Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 3:17 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Sc-Ir] Loyalists Is there a Loyalists list that I could access free? I suspect my Stuart/Stewart family in the Sussex Co., Virginia (late 1600's) were Loyalists. Thanks, Phyllis Stuart-Jacobson

Is there a Loyalists list that I could access free? I suspect my Stuart/Stewart family in the Sussex Co., Virginia (late 1600's) were Loyalists. Thanks, Phyllis Stuart-Jacobson