There is a text, "In Search of the Forlorn Hope", by John M. Kitzmiller II, which is dedicated to answering this question, but I only have Vol I, which seems to go only to the early 1800s. Presumably Vol II will have the answer. As for the comment that ">> Just about everyone in Scotland has Irish ancestors, (the Irish granny is >> a cliche). ", Foster has the comment that "The Irish emigration to >> Scotland had its own colouration. The long tradition of seasonal >> migration set up a connection that rapidly became permanent; by 1851, 6.7 >> per cent of the entire Scots population was Irish-born, a percentage that >> rose to over 18 per cent in Dundee and Glasgow. " so there was certainly >> plenty of movement in that direction Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "EDWARD ANDREWS" <edward.andrews@btinternet.com> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] New to list > Thanks Charlie, I should have said that. > I did a bit of research and there is an Irish-Scots list, though it lately > doesnt seem to have been very busy. I am going to join when I am back with > a proper connection > There is a Yahoo list Britishregiments which is very good at answering > questions about the whereabouts of regiments, though don't explicitly say > that it is a genealogical question as they are not officially into > genealogy > Edward > > Charles Clark <Charles.Clark@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > The only comment that I can add to this excellent essay from Edward is the > suggestion that as an army wife, your gr gr grandmother may (perhaps) have > accompanied her husband from the area where he was recruited in Ireland > (the > British army peaked in the 1850s, I believe, at about 55% Irish, if I > recall > correctly from Foster's Modern Ireland, which I probably don't) to an area > where his regiment was serving. Was there a British army regiment with > recruitment in Ireland stationed near Duns in 1858? > Charlie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "EDWARD ANDREWS" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:04 AM > Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] New to list > > >> Dear Yvonne, >> Sorry for the delay in replying to you, but I am away from home and today >> is the first time I've had access to a good connection. >> The question that you have asked is not one that this list is really >> geared up to answer, and I don't know if there is a list that is. >> Scotch-Irish is a concept of looking at a group of people who went to >> America, mainly, but not exclusively in the eighteenth century. At some >> stage their ancestors had moved to Ireland from Britain, traditionally >> Scotland, but also from England. I happen to be from a part of the Tribe, >> who didn't make the leap to America. I believe that my ancestors is >> Scottish - why? Because I am a Presbyterian. It is not infallible, but it >> is a good guide. A lot of the work in this group is of little interest to >> me as they are very, very good at that additional layer of research about >> where they went in early America. >> Now Ulster (a shortcut name for the part of Ireland where most of the >> Scots Irish operated which is why the stay in Ireland people like me are >> often called the Ulster Scots) genealogy is different to that of the rest >> of Ireland because the land holding was done differently, and the Church >> records (Presbyterian and sometimes Covenanting) are different. >> While it is a general ambition of the S-I to trace their ancestors back >> to >> Scotland they are generally looking for people a long time ago, for whom >> they have to use special techniques - about which they generally know a >> lot. The actual work in Scotland is however a different technique as >> generally all you can do is to get them back to an area in Scotland. >> What this list is not geared up to do is to do very much for what you >> could call the Irish Scots. People from Ireland who have moved to >> Scotland. >> Just about everyone in Scotland has Irish ancestors, (the Irish granny is >> a cliche). Most of the ancestors moved from Ireland in the 19th Century, >> mainly between 1840 and 1880. They were generally economic refugees from >> the distress which there was associated with the Irish famine of 1845 - >> 1850, and the subsequent effects. They were also substantially Roman >> Catholic in belief and culture. >> However many of these people are also represented by the people who >> pre-famine, as well as post famine came over to work as agricultural >> labourers often in places like the Lothians and Berwickshire (actually up >> and down the East Coast generally) >> However as an added complication there were Protestant Ulster Scots who >> went to work in Scotland and who for obvious reasons pretty well >> disappeared in a generation, reabsorbed into what they saw as "their >> culture". Many of them were skilled Engineers from the Shipyards in >> Belfast or other engineering concerns. >> I don't know if there is a roots-web list which addresses people from >> Ireland in Scotland. If there isn't, there really should be one. >> I am in the interesting position of being an Ulster Scot, who now lives >> in >> Scotland, actually in Haddington which is just over the Lammermuir Hills >> from Duns. >> I hope that I've helped you about what is a complicated and misleading >> topic for those who are looking for help. >> Edward Andrews >> Hello List, >> >> I am trying to find out about an Irish ancestor who lived in Duns, >> Berwickshire, Scotland from approximately 1858 until her death in 1895 >> aged 75. (I am taking it to be 1858 as her daughter Eliza was born in >> Duns >> that year). My gr gr grandmother's name was Mary CHRISTIE (born Ireland >> in >> 1820) she married Hugh DILLON (birth unknown). Don't know where in >> Ireland, sorry!! >> >> Is there a way of finding out when and where abouts in Ireland they moved >> from. CHRISTIE and DILLON seem such common names and I can't seem to >> pinpoint anything pre Duns. On Mary's death certificate it stated that >> Hugh DILLON (deceased) was a soldier. >> >> Any help, information or a point in the right direction would be >> fantastic. >> >> Regards >> Yvonne >> >> > >

The only comment that I can add to this excellent essay from Edward is the suggestion that as an army wife, your gr gr grandmother may (perhaps) have accompanied her husband from the area where he was recruited in Ireland (the British army peaked in the 1850s, I believe, at about 55% Irish, if I recall correctly from Foster's Modern Ireland, which I probably don't) to an area where his regiment was serving. Was there a British army regiment with recruitment in Ireland stationed near Duns in 1858? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "EDWARD ANDREWS" <edward.andrews@btinternet.com> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] New to list > Dear Yvonne, > Sorry for the delay in replying to you, but I am away from home and today > is the first time I've had access to a good connection. > The question that you have asked is not one that this list is really > geared up to answer, and I don't know if there is a list that is. > Scotch-Irish is a concept of looking at a group of people who went to > America, mainly, but not exclusively in the eighteenth century. At some > stage their ancestors had moved to Ireland from Britain, traditionally > Scotland, but also from England. I happen to be from a part of the Tribe, > who didn't make the leap to America. I believe that my ancestors is > Scottish - why? Because I am a Presbyterian. It is not infallible, but it > is a good guide. A lot of the work in this group is of little interest to > me as they are very, very good at that additional layer of research about > where they went in early America. > Now Ulster (a shortcut name for the part of Ireland where most of the > Scots Irish operated which is why the stay in Ireland people like me are > often called the Ulster Scots) genealogy is different to that of the rest > of Ireland because the land holding was done differently, and the Church > records (Presbyterian and sometimes Covenanting) are different. > While it is a general ambition of the S-I to trace their ancestors back to > Scotland they are generally looking for people a long time ago, for whom > they have to use special techniques - about which they generally know a > lot. The actual work in Scotland is however a different technique as > generally all you can do is to get them back to an area in Scotland. > What this list is not geared up to do is to do very much for what you > could call the Irish Scots. People from Ireland who have moved to > Scotland. > Just about everyone in Scotland has Irish ancestors, (the Irish granny is > a cliche). Most of the ancestors moved from Ireland in the 19th Century, > mainly between 1840 and 1880. They were generally economic refugees from > the distress which there was associated with the Irish famine of 1845 - > 1850, and the subsequent effects. They were also substantially Roman > Catholic in belief and culture. > However many of these people are also represented by the people who > pre-famine, as well as post famine came over to work as agricultural > labourers often in places like the Lothians and Berwickshire (actually up > and down the East Coast generally) > However as an added complication there were Protestant Ulster Scots who > went to work in Scotland and who for obvious reasons pretty well > disappeared in a generation, reabsorbed into what they saw as "their > culture". Many of them were skilled Engineers from the Shipyards in > Belfast or other engineering concerns. > I don't know if there is a roots-web list which addresses people from > Ireland in Scotland. If there isn't, there really should be one. > I am in the interesting position of being an Ulster Scot, who now lives in > Scotland, actually in Haddington which is just over the Lammermuir Hills > from Duns. > I hope that I've helped you about what is a complicated and misleading > topic for those who are looking for help. > Edward Andrews > Hello List, > > I am trying to find out about an Irish ancestor who lived in Duns, > Berwickshire, Scotland from approximately 1858 until her death in 1895 > aged 75. (I am taking it to be 1858 as her daughter Eliza was born in Duns > that year). My gr gr grandmother's name was Mary CHRISTIE (born Ireland in > 1820) she married Hugh DILLON (birth unknown). Don't know where in > Ireland, sorry!! > > Is there a way of finding out when and where abouts in Ireland they moved > from. CHRISTIE and DILLON seem such common names and I can't seem to > pinpoint anything pre Duns. On Mary's death certificate it stated that > Hugh DILLON (deceased) was a soldier. > > Any help, information or a point in the right direction would be > fantastic. > > Regards > Yvonne > >

Yvonne, You may want to try obtaining post 1855 birth records for ALL children. The post 1855 records indicate the date of the parent's marriage and if you are very lucky sometimes the place. For me it was one out of six - so be sure to check all births. > I am trying to find out about an Irish ancestor who lived in Duns, > Berwickshire, Scotland from approximately 1858 until her death in 1895 > aged 75. (I am taking it to be 1858 as her daughter Eliza was born in Duns > that year). My gr gr grandmother's name was Mary CHRISTIE (born Ireland in > 1820) she married Hugh DILLON (birth unknown). Don't know where in > Ireland, sorry!! > > Is there a way of finding out when and where abouts in Ireland they moved > from. CHRISTIE and DILLON seem such common names and I can't seem to > pinpoint anything pre Duns. On Mary's death certificate it stated that > Hugh DILLON (deceased) was a soldier. > > Any help, information or a point in the right direction would be > fantastic. > > Regards > Yvonne Rick McMeechan Broadview Hts. Ohio, USA Rmcmeechan@aol.com

>Hello Listers > >I would like to introduce you to a new Document and Certificate Retrieval >Service in Northern Ireland > >Request copies of specific original documents >We are now pleased to offer you the opportunity to carry out your own >genealogical research by obtaining copies of specific records. This new >genealogical service is a cost effective way of finding vital information >relating to your ancestors and blasting through those "brickwalls" that are >the scourge of so many present day family genealogists. > >Experienced researchers will tell you that the most important genealogical >breakthroughs come from information contained in a birth marriage or death >certificate. > >You can find out more at www.ulsterancestry.com/documents/ > >regards >Robert > >_________________________________________________________________ >>last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger 7.5 is now out. Download it for FREE here. http://messenger.msn.co.uk

Thanks Charlie, I should have said that. I did a bit of research and there is an Irish-Scots list, though it lately doesnt seem to have been very busy. I am going to join when I am back with a proper connection There is a Yahoo list Britishregiments which is very good at answering questions about the whereabouts of regiments, though don't explicitly say that it is a genealogical question as they are not officially into genealogy Edward Charles Clark <Charles.Clark@xtra.co.nz> wrote: The only comment that I can add to this excellent essay from Edward is the suggestion that as an army wife, your gr gr grandmother may (perhaps) have accompanied her husband from the area where he was recruited in Ireland (the British army peaked in the 1850s, I believe, at about 55% Irish, if I recall correctly from Foster's Modern Ireland, which I probably don't) to an area where his regiment was serving. Was there a British army regiment with recruitment in Ireland stationed near Duns in 1858? Charlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "EDWARD ANDREWS" To: Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] New to list > Dear Yvonne, > Sorry for the delay in replying to you, but I am away from home and today > is the first time I've had access to a good connection. > The question that you have asked is not one that this list is really > geared up to answer, and I don't know if there is a list that is. > Scotch-Irish is a concept of looking at a group of people who went to > America, mainly, but not exclusively in the eighteenth century. At some > stage their ancestors had moved to Ireland from Britain, traditionally > Scotland, but also from England. I happen to be from a part of the Tribe, > who didn't make the leap to America. I believe that my ancestors is > Scottish - why? Because I am a Presbyterian. It is not infallible, but it > is a good guide. A lot of the work in this group is of little interest to > me as they are very, very good at that additional layer of research about > where they went in early America. > Now Ulster (a shortcut name for the part of Ireland where most of the > Scots Irish operated which is why the stay in Ireland people like me are > often called the Ulster Scots) genealogy is different to that of the rest > of Ireland because the land holding was done differently, and the Church > records (Presbyterian and sometimes Covenanting) are different. > While it is a general ambition of the S-I to trace their ancestors back to > Scotland they are generally looking for people a long time ago, for whom > they have to use special techniques - about which they generally know a > lot. The actual work in Scotland is however a different technique as > generally all you can do is to get them back to an area in Scotland. > What this list is not geared up to do is to do very much for what you > could call the Irish Scots. People from Ireland who have moved to > Scotland. > Just about everyone in Scotland has Irish ancestors, (the Irish granny is > a cliche). Most of the ancestors moved from Ireland in the 19th Century, > mainly between 1840 and 1880. They were generally economic refugees from > the distress which there was associated with the Irish famine of 1845 - > 1850, and the subsequent effects. They were also substantially Roman > Catholic in belief and culture. > However many of these people are also represented by the people who > pre-famine, as well as post famine came over to work as agricultural > labourers often in places like the Lothians and Berwickshire (actually up > and down the East Coast generally) > However as an added complication there were Protestant Ulster Scots who > went to work in Scotland and who for obvious reasons pretty well > disappeared in a generation, reabsorbed into what they saw as "their > culture". Many of them were skilled Engineers from the Shipyards in > Belfast or other engineering concerns. > I don't know if there is a roots-web list which addresses people from > Ireland in Scotland. If there isn't, there really should be one. > I am in the interesting position of being an Ulster Scot, who now lives in > Scotland, actually in Haddington which is just over the Lammermuir Hills > from Duns. > I hope that I've helped you about what is a complicated and misleading > topic for those who are looking for help. > Edward Andrews > Hello List, > > I am trying to find out about an Irish ancestor who lived in Duns, > Berwickshire, Scotland from approximately 1858 until her death in 1895 > aged 75. (I am taking it to be 1858 as her daughter Eliza was born in Duns > that year). My gr gr grandmother's name was Mary CHRISTIE (born Ireland in > 1820) she married Hugh DILLON (birth unknown). Don't know where in > Ireland, sorry!! > > Is there a way of finding out when and where abouts in Ireland they moved > from. CHRISTIE and DILLON seem such common names and I can't seem to > pinpoint anything pre Duns. On Mary's death certificate it stated that > Hugh DILLON (deceased) was a soldier. > > Any help, information or a point in the right direction would be > fantastic. > > Regards > Yvonne > >

Hi John, Of course it is possible. Ireland in the 1600s was a place of immigration. You no doubt know about the Hugeunots and how many became refugees in Britain. I can refer you to the entire chapter on them in Falley "Irish and Scotch Irish Ancestral History". It covers records. As I recall (book is not on hand, sorry!!), Huguenots (French Protestants) migrated in waves to Britain and then moved back to France when conditions lightened up. In Britain they were naturalized by act of Parliament so they are named in Parlimentary records. Just as with all the other Protestant refugee groups, they were permitted to set up churches of their own in their own language and provided with the book of common prayer in their native tongue. As they assimilated into the British nation, their children and grandchildren abandoned these churches and joined in the usual parishes. For records you must consult Falley. I never managed to get much that's in this two vol. work into the ol brain!! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "John Polk" <jfpolk@earthlink.net> Reply-To: jfpolk@earthlink.net Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:31:29 -0400 >I recently came across a LDS family group data sheet which asserts that a >person I am researching was christened in Strabane, County Tyrone, on 18 >Feb 1679/80 at the Walloon French & Dutch Reformed Churrch. Is this >possible - has anyone heard of this church? Would there be any records? > >Appreciate any help - > >John Polk > > > >--- John Polk >--- Havre de Grace MD >--- jfpolk@earthlink.net > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

I recently came across a LDS family group data sheet which asserts that a person I am researching was christened in Strabane, County Tyrone, on 18 Feb 1679/80 at the Walloon French & Dutch Reformed Churrch. Is this possible - has anyone heard of this church? Would there be any records? Appreciate any help - John Polk --- John Polk --- Havre de Grace MD --- jfpolk@earthlink.net

Dear Yvonne, Sorry for the delay in replying to you, but I am away from home and today is the first time I've had access to a good connection. The question that you have asked is not one that this list is really geared up to answer, and I don't know if there is a list that is. Scotch-Irish is a concept of looking at a group of people who went to America, mainly, but not exclusively in the eighteenth century. At some stage their ancestors had moved to Ireland from Britain, traditionally Scotland, but also from England. I happen to be from a part of the Tribe, who didn't make the leap to America. I believe that my ancestors is Scottish - why? Because I am a Presbyterian. It is not infallible, but it is a good guide. A lot of the work in this group is of little interest to me as they are very, very good at that additional layer of research about where they went in early America. Now Ulster (a shortcut name for the part of Ireland where most of the Scots Irish operated which is why the stay in Ireland people like me are often called the Ulster Scots) genealogy is different to that of the rest of Ireland because the land holding was done differently, and the Church records (Presbyterian and sometimes Covenanting) are different. While it is a general ambition of the S-I to trace their ancestors back to Scotland they are generally looking for people a long time ago, for whom they have to use special techniques - about which they generally know a lot. The actual work in Scotland is however a different technique as generally all you can do is to get them back to an area in Scotland. What this list is not geared up to do is to do very much for what you could call the Irish Scots. People from Ireland who have moved to Scotland. Just about everyone in Scotland has Irish ancestors, (the Irish granny is a cliche). Most of the ancestors moved from Ireland in the 19th Century, mainly between 1840 and 1880. They were generally economic refugees from the distress which there was associated with the Irish famine of 1845 - 1850, and the subsequent effects. They were also substantially Roman Catholic in belief and culture. However many of these people are also represented by the people who pre-famine, as well as post famine came over to work as agricultural labourers often in places like the Lothians and Berwickshire (actually up and down the East Coast generally) However as an added complication there were Protestant Ulster Scots who went to work in Scotland and who for obvious reasons pretty well disappeared in a generation, reabsorbed into what they saw as "their culture". Many of them were skilled Engineers from the Shipyards in Belfast or other engineering concerns. I don't know if there is a roots-web list which addresses people from Ireland in Scotland. If there isn't, there really should be one. I am in the interesting position of being an Ulster Scot, who now lives in Scotland, actually in Haddington which is just over the Lammermuir Hills from Duns. I hope that I've helped you about what is a complicated and misleading topic for those who are looking for help. Edward Andrews Hello List, I am trying to find out about an Irish ancestor who lived in Duns, Berwickshire, Scotland from approximately 1858 until her death in 1895 aged 75. (I am taking it to be 1858 as her daughter Eliza was born in Duns that year). My gr gr grandmother's name was Mary CHRISTIE (born Ireland in 1820) she married Hugh DILLON (birth unknown). Don't know where in Ireland, sorry!! Is there a way of finding out when and where abouts in Ireland they moved from. CHRISTIE and DILLON seem such common names and I can't seem to pinpoint anything pre Duns. On Mary's death certificate it stated that Hugh DILLON (deceased) was a soldier. Any help, information or a point in the right direction would be fantastic. Regards Yvonne

JParks1393@aol.com wrote: > So Waringstown straddles both Down and Armagh, eh? Is that a result of > changing boundaries over the years? Does that mean I have to check church and > civil records for both counties? Or do the civil parishes take precedence? > > I'm having a terrible time getting a grip on poor law unions, civil parishes, > townlands, etc., and Waringstown being in both Down and Armagh isn't helping > any! > > Regards, > Julie Anne Parks > > Searching: Parks, Finley, Doherty, Donnelly, Flynn, Mahoney, McAvoy > Hettrick, Cassidy, Donahoe, Donahue, Timmons, Winrow > > > The village of Coagh also has half the village in Tyrone and the other half in Londonderry / Derry and therefore different postmen lol

McKENZIE ~ O'NEIL ~ SULLIVAN ~ SHEEHAN Greetings Listers , Hope these few words find things going well. Could anyone with access be so kind as to do a lookup. Any help is just great. Daniel McKensey (b.c. 1815) in 1831 Ire census for Aghadowey Civ. Parish, Co. Derry. His age would be 21, 11 or 1. If a child not m., his parents & sibling info will solve my brick-wall. Otherwise, his adult single or m. info would be useful. Indicating any info to me via email would be great. If there is no info, perhaps one could indicate other sources that might have info or related data. Your kindness, consideration, time and effort / help is greatly appreciated. Good luck and all the best with your own genealogy family search. TIA with kind regards , Grandpa Walt-Irish McKenzie, Sr.- NJ - MA - USA -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 10/19/2005

Hi Walt, If you haven't already, check our archives (www.rootsweb.com, go to 'Mail Lists" and Interactive Search, type in Scotch-Irish). We may have info in the archives. It's not easy to do 'lookups' for you beyond the stuff you no doubt have. In 1831 there is no civil registration and mighty few church records. The church records are often locally held. Many would be indexed by the center in Derry that I don't recall the name of (sorry, all my books are in the storage locker!!). Maybe you could hire Robert to check PRONI for ya. No doubt you've heard that the secret to Irish genealogy is locating the townland on which they lived. So check for the townland. Now why do you want the townland? That's because that will give you the estate. If you have the name of the estate you can look for estate records. This will keep you out of trouble for a few years. Before you do that you should spend time studying the family in the local history. As has been said many times the key to Irish genealogy is local history. In the Aghadowey area is a lot of local history. I am more familiar personally with local history in Ballymena area. To recyle my old jokes, a long time ago I read it was the 'meanest town in Ireland" and I said "That must be where my ancestors are from" and sure 'nuff, they are from nearby. (Personally I can think of a few places in Cork I think are meaner, but that's me...) Much of the local history is in small periodicals and pamplets, often locally published. Finding them is an art -- or a trip to the LInen Hall Library in Belfast!!! It's NOT at PRONI as PRONI is repository of records. People spend a lifetime in PRONI writing a book. The book is published and it's in the Linen Hall Library. Will y ou be able to replicate their life of work in 1 afternoon in PRONI? NO!!!!!!! You must use these publications and note what documents they reference in PRONI. Many of these local history books are not indexed so no one who is sane is going to offer to do 'lookups'. Often they are published in 3 point type too so reading them is hard. You have to read these books or bribe someone. Once you glean as much as you can from local history, then there's all kinds of things you can also check. In fact if yuou check Ryan's book "Irish Records" it'll list all the main sources for you for L'derry. I have NORRISes from Castledawson. Just tonight as I walked my dog I wondered if I was now living on my ancestor Robert Norris's land. It was around here somewhere. He left around 1820 or 1830, one of many NORRISes who came to Western PA and other parts of the USA. In the 1831 census there are a couple left. He had two wives. I descend from Catherine DOWLING. While many in Ulster think it's a 'Catholic name', a variant of DORAN, actually it's also an English surname. Notta clue what Catherine's religion or ethnity was. THeir son DOWLING NORRIS died in the American Civil War. Robert's daughter married a CULMER (English from Kent: we cut the stairs in Broadstairs). An old family history (unproven) of the CULMERs says they were Swedish nobility who came to England with the first fleet of Viking ships to winter over. They were baptized at Thanet. We did okay till the War of Roses, when we lost our estate in Kent. We were patronized by the early Tudors. Nice fantasies!!! happy hunting Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Walt McKENZIE, Sr." <WaltIrish@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:42:32 -0400 > McKENZIE ~ O'NEIL ~ SULLIVAN ~ SHEEHAN >Greetings Listers , > > Hope these few words find things going well. Could anyone with access be so kind as >to do a lookup. Any help is just great. > > Daniel McKensey (b.c. 1815) in 1831 Ire census for Aghadowey Civ. Parish, Co. Derry. >His age would be 21, 11 or 1. If a child not m., his parents & sibling info will solve my >brick-wall. Otherwise, his adult single or m. info would be useful. > > Indicating any info to me via email would be great. If there is no info, perhaps one >could indicate other sources that might have info or related data. Your kindness, >consideration, time and effort / help is greatly appreciated. Good luck and all the best with >your own genealogy family search. > > TIA with kind regards , Grandpa Walt-Irish McKenzie, Sr.- NJ - MA - USA > > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/143 - Release Date: 10/19/2005 > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

There's actually a lot of places in Ireland that are in two jurisdictions. Drives ya to drink, it does. Possibly one reason is that the townlands are among the oldest placenames. They are prehistoric, in many cases, though some are new. Some have also become archaic. Generally they belonged to one owner, excepting the townland that I finally, after a lot of grief, traced my one line to. That townland was half in one estate and half in another. At that point I began looking for an pub!!! I still haven't gotten up the courage to pursue THAT one. Village of Ahoghill, anyone???!! On the plus side, I now have custody of my furniture and genealogy books (etc) after they were sent on a misadventure by incompetant movers for 3 weeks. However I am now working with Arizona (where the firm is registered) to cause them great pain in return. So since I no longer have to spend my time filing reports with the FBI, being nice on the phone to these scammers, dealing with my elderly and disfunctional parents whose reaction to it all was to become nasty (NOW I recall why I moved away <GRIN>), and trying to digest my food and sleeping on the floor in a sleeping bag, I hope to have more time for the list. I'll make myself admin again today (Rev. Andrews was serving as admin). Regarding Irish genealogy, it wasn't till I started doing it that I realized why it is the Irish drink....and started to want to myself!! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Alan <alan@ulster-scots.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 20:08:46 +0100 >JParks1393@aol.com wrote: >> So Waringstown straddles both Down and Armagh, eh? Is that a result of >> changing boundaries over the years? Does that mean I have to check church and >> civil records for both counties? Or do the civil parishes take precedence? >> >> I'm having a terrible time getting a grip on poor law unions, civil parishes, >> townlands, etc., and Waringstown being in both Down and Armagh isn't helping >> any! >> >> Regards, >> Julie Anne Parks >> >> Searching: Parks, Finley, Doherty, Donnelly, Flynn, Mahoney, McAvoy >> Hettrick, Cassidy, Donahoe, Donahue, Timmons, Winrow >> >> >> >The village of Coagh also has half the village in Tyrone and the other >half in Londonderry / Derry and therefore different postmen lol > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hello list, Thank you for the quick responses regarding Hugh Dillon something to look into now. Many thanks to a wonderful list Yvonne

Hi again Julie, I assure you that we locals have the same problem with townlands, parishes, baronies, poor law unions, local registrar's district, superintendent registrar's district, polling district and county. You are probably best to deal with townlands and church parishes. The townlands are unique - there are very few townlands that are divided, with parts in different parishes etc. In the likes of Griffith's valuation and the tithe applotments the townlands are grouped into poor law unions. The registrars districts are based on these groupings. Townlands are grouped also as church parishes and parishes grouped as baronies. Just for your information: Civil registration (of non-Catholic) marriages started in 1845. Civil registration of births, deaths and all other marriages started in 1864. LDS have issued sets of CD roms containing 'selected' birth and marriage registrations for UK (including Ireland). I do not know the exact details of the selection process. On the set I have there seem to be marriages 1845-1850 and 1864-1866, along with births 1864-1872. I do not know the exact geographical coverage of the data. The only complete census that is available here (Northern Ireland) is that of 1901. The 1911 census is available in Dublin. There are fragments of the 1851 census for County Antrim. Some sets of census returns were destroyed in 1915(?) as part of the war effort. Most church records that had been put in "safe-keeping" before 1922 were destroyed in 1922. That included the vast majority of early church records and most of the remaining census returns. Church of Ireland (Established Church, Irish Church) from before 1864 are regarded as public records and no permission is needed to extract data from them. Presbyterian church records are available on film at the Public Record Office for Northern Ireland (PRONI) but permission must be obtained from the present church minister before a copy of the film may be made. Irish genealogy is not easy!! You have the advantage of a relatively rare family name PARKS. Best of luck. Norman Parkes http://www.parkesfamily.btinternet.co.uk/ for MANN and CHESTNUT of North Antrim

Hello Julie Anne, Ireland and it's counties are sub-divided in a unique way. The smallest and most significant division is what is known as the "Townland" Counties are divided into Parishes and Parishes further divided into townlands. This ancient method of land measurement is found only in Ireland and is very important in genealogical research. These small areas of land can vary in size from a few acres upwards and are the basis of the most important of all Irish Genealogical Records , Sir Richard Griffith's Valuation of 1848-1865. There are approximately 62,000 townlands in Ireland and anything from perhaps five to thirty can be grouped together to form a Parish. Griffiths Valuation was taken not by Parish but by Poor Law Union. Poor Law Unions (or Superintendant Registrar's Districts) were the areas of administration for poor relief established under the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1838. Because these areas centered on large market towns to a radius of approx.10 miles,(where they built the Workhouse) they often tended to cross County boundaries. They became Superintendant Registrars' Districts at the end of the 19th Century. Waringstown therefore is a town (not a townland) in the County of Down, in the Parish of Donaghcloney, in the Poor Law Union of Lurgan. best regards Robert www.ulsterancestry.com >From: JParks1393@aol.com >To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [Sc-Ir] Thanks Robert and Alan >Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:57:29 EDT > >So Waringstown straddles both Down and Armagh, eh? Is that a result of >changing boundaries over the years? Does that mean I have to check church >and >civil records for both counties? Or do the civil parishes take precedence? > >I'm having a terrible time getting a grip on poor law unions, civil >parishes, >townlands, etc., and Waringstown being in both Down and Armagh isn't >helping >any! > >Regards, >Julie Anne Parks > >Searching: Parks, Finley, Doherty, Donnelly, Flynn, Mahoney, McAvoy >Hettrick, Cassidy, Donahoe, Donahue, Timmons, Winrow > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN Search Toolbar now includes Desktop search! http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

So Waringstown straddles both Down and Armagh, eh? Is that a result of changing boundaries over the years? Does that mean I have to check church and civil records for both counties? Or do the civil parishes take precedence? I'm having a terrible time getting a grip on poor law unions, civil parishes, townlands, etc., and Waringstown being in both Down and Armagh isn't helping any! Regards, Julie Anne Parks Searching: Parks, Finley, Doherty, Donnelly, Flynn, Mahoney, McAvoy Hettrick, Cassidy, Donahoe, Donahue, Timmons, Winrow

Hello List, I am trying to find out about an Irish ancestor who lived in Duns, Berwickshire, Scotland from approximately 1858 until her death in 1895 aged 75. (I am taking it to be 1858 as her daughter Eliza was born in Duns that year). My gr gr grandmother's name was Mary CHRISTIE (born Ireland in 1820) she married Hugh DILLON (birth unknown). Don't know where in Ireland, sorry!! Is there a way of finding out when and where abouts in Ireland they moved from. CHRISTIE and DILLON seem such common names and I can't seem to pinpoint anything pre Duns. On Mary's death certificate it stated that Hugh DILLON (deceased) was a soldier. Any help, information or a point in the right direction would be fantastic. Regards Yvonne

Ulster Ancestry wrote: > Hello Julie Ann, > > Your "Wellingstown" sound remarkably like "Waringstown" which is in > County Down , > Parish of Donaghcloney.On a map is just east of the town of Lurgan and > Portadown. > > best regards > Robert > www.ulsterancestry.com yes i was thinking that myself waringstown but isn`t it County Armagh? > > >> From: JParks1393@aol.com >> To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [Sc-Ir] Another elusive Scots-Irish >> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:03:56 EDT >> >> Hello list: Feel like tackling yet another elusive Scots-Irishman? >> >> Edward Parks was born somewhere between 1856-1863 in "N. Ireland" >> according >> to the 1910, 1920, 1930 US censuses, his death certificate and his >> marriage >> license. Of course, also on those same censuses, he was 50 in 1920, >> 50 in 1930 >> and 50 when he died in 1934. According to his naturalization papers, >> he was >> born in 1856 ... according to his marriage license, he was born in 1863. >> (Mathematically challenged, to say the least or else he tapped into >> Ponce de Leon's >> Fountain of Youth.) His naturalization papers state he arrived at >> the Port of >> New York on 15 July 1886 -- he's not on any immigration list >> anywhere, even on >> boats that arrived on that date. I checked the Canadian lists, >> thinking he >> might have snuck over the border and also checked Baltimore, Gulf >> Coasts, >> Philadelphia and San Francisco as well as checked into Australia in >> case he went >> their first in chains. Nada. Nowhere. Maybe he rowed across. >> >> To complicate matters, he stated on his marriage certificate that he >> was from >> "Wellingstown, N. Ireland" Turns out there isn't any such place. >> There are >> four different streets named "Wellington" in Belfast, there was a >> farm named >> "Wellington Lodge" in County Down, and there is a Wellington townland >> in Co. >> Tipperary which I've discarded entirely because he was always careful >> to specify >> "North of Ireland" as if it were an important designation to him. >> There is a >> "Warrington" in Northern Ireland...could that possibly sound like >> "Wellingstown" to an untrained American ear if said in a broad Ulster >> accent? >> >> I assume he was a Protestant because a) "Parks" is an English name >> originally, b) all the Parks families I've found in Ireland were >> Protestants and c) all >> the Parks families I've found in Scotland were Protestants. But he >> married an >> Irish Catholic woman in a Baptist Church in New York, raised all his >> kids >> Catholic and is now buried in a Catholic cemetery. >> >> His father was Samuel Parks, his mother Elizabeth McAvoy/McEvoy or >> MacElvoy. >> >> I can't start writing away for church records when I have no idea >> where to >> look. Any guidance/thoughts will be much appreciated. >> >> Julie Anne Parks >> >> Searching: Parks, Finley, Doherty, Donnelly, Flynn, McAvoy, Mahoney >> Hettrick, Cassidy, Donahoe, Donahue, Timmons, Winrow >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Messenger 7.5 is now out. Download it for FREE here. > http://messenger.msn.co.uk > >

Ulster Ancestry wrote: > Hello Julie Ann, > > Your "Wellingstown" sound remarkably like "Waringstown" which is in > County Down , > Parish of Donaghcloney.On a map is just east of the town of Lurgan and > Portadown. > > best regards > Robert > www.ulsterancestry.com seems it must straddle the county borders > *Name: The Planters Tavern > <http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/22/22361/Planters_Tavern/Waringstown>* > *Address: *4 Banbridge Rd, Waringstown, Craigavon, County Armagh, BT66 7QA Safety First 11 Meadowvale Waringstown Down BT66 7RA United Kingdom

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