This article extraction is only one of many found by googling Christmas Folkways. I have added a historical reference at the close of the article from David Hackett Fischer's "Albion's Seed." Lee Ramsey December, 1993 HOLIDAY FIREBALL TRADITION REVISITED by Anne Kimzey A year ago Alabama Folkways featured a column by Doug Purcell describing the tradition of fireballing -- the practice of lighting kerosene-soaked balls of yarn or tightly-wound rags and tossing the fiery objects outdoors at night as a way of celebrating Christmas or the New Year... the practice once occurred in the Alabama counties of Henry, Houston, Dale and Russell and in Hancock County, Georgia. Our respondents indicated that fireballs have also flown through the skies of Chambers, Tallapoosa, Elmore, Bullock, Pike, Crenshaw, Geneva, Covington, Monroe, Dallas, Marengo, Perry, Bibb and Blount counties. While most respondents told of fireball memories dating back to the 1920s and '30s, Jeanette Gibson of Goodway in Monroe County, Alabama wrote that her family and friends began to gather on Christmas Eve a few years ago for "refreshments, fireworks, and fireballs," when she found it difficult to make the trip back to Blakely, Georgia, where her father's side of the family ha! s thrown fireballs at Christmas for generations. This Christmas folkways is most likely the extention of the "Old Christmas" from the boarder lands of Scotland and Northern England. "Old Christmas" was originally celebrated on January 6th. with a feast, bonfires, gunplay and fireworks. This custom continued in the Appalachia and the highlands of North Carolina as well. The January 6th date was traditional believed to be the real Christmas as the birth day of Christ. Lee Ramsey http://www.1n5free.com

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/dicky-bird

There is a bird called the dickcissel. Could your Dickie Bird be one of these cute finch-like birds. I looked in my Scottish and Irish bird books but did not find it. These are small books that have only the most common birds. If any is interested, I will scan and email it to you. Pat Wolfe in Maryland At Christmastime, we were told that a "dickie bird" would sit outside our window .. and "watch what we were doing" .. and then fly away and go "report to" Santa !

Hi Ludie, From Age 9 to ~14, my KERR grandparents lived in our home with us. I'm sorry I don't remember a whole lot about my childhood, but, for whatever reasons, a few things have always stuck with me ! At Christmastime, we were told that a "dickie bird" would sit outside our window .. and "watch what we were doing" .. and then fly away and go "report to" Santa ! I remembered the story, but didn't really follow through with my children (was too busy / stressed being a single-parent). But, several years ago, once I got my computer, I tried to find out whether there really was a bird, called a "dickie bird." I really didn't find much, but my dictionary says there was a "dickie bird" in Great Britain ! Betty (near Lowell, MA) FYI: "Grampy KERR" was descended from a family-group of KERR's and HENDERSON's who migrated from Sligo, Ireland, to Quebec, Canada, in the 1820's, and then their children (cousins married) came down to Boston in the 1890's. William KERR, who came down first in 1870's, married Elizabeth HANNAH, whose HANNAH / RITCHIE parents had left Glasgow, Scotland, in 1850's to come to MA / USA. She was an infant at the time. "Grammy KERR" was a foundling, originally given the name, Daisy WATROUS. She was adopted in 1892 by a DEXTER / CLARK "older couple." My "hypothesis" is that their married daughter, in Killingly, CT, had an "unwanted pregnancy" and Mr./Mrs. DEXTER moved to Boston, MA, so that "a small-town scandal" could be avoided. Mrs. Clara YOUNG had a 7-year-old son, and remained living in Killingly with her husband. (I do not yet know whether the above surnames are "Scotch / Irish.) Come to think of it, now that I am a grandmother, I find it interesting ... how many names there are for -- grandparents ! Grampy/Grammy, Nana/Papa, Grandmother ____/Grandfather ____, Grandma / Grandpa, etc., not to mention all the names from other countries ! (Vavo, YiaYia, etc.) I decided on "Grandma" and my young grandson decided on "Gabba," instead ! :o) P.S. Our other Christmas traditions seem to be the same as other families we knew and/or were related to ! However, I ran into one problem* when I first got married to my EX .. His "German / English" family from Brooklyn, NY, would "open Santa's gifts" - at midnight (or before bedtime) ! And, my family "always" waited until "Christmas morning" - as Santa "arrived" - while we were sleeping ! (How could Santa get the presents to children in Brooklyn, NY, .. "before 10 pm" or while they were awake?) :o( *There were "many" problems when I first got married; but I waited until after 2 children were born to "kick him out !" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loudene Tollar" <ludiekt@juno.com> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:22 AM Subject: SCOTCH-IRISH CHRISTMAS TRADITIONS - HELP > It's been several years since I've had time to even look at this list. I'm > back now and looking for help. This subject has probably been addressed a > long time ago but if anyone can give me a few Christmas > traditions(briefly) that are know to have been celebrated by the > Scotch-Irish I'd sure appreciate it. I'm working up a program for our > genealogy society here in Trinity County, Texas for December and hope to > include some traditions that may have been passed down through the > generations. Thanks, Ludie > ______________________________

It's me again!! I have no Scotch Irish Christmas suggestions. Alas, my maternial granddad (the Scotch Irish one) was lapsed RP and he HAD no traditions, apparently. My grandma took over, as in most homes. She was half Irish/Ulster Scot and half German. She had an intense Irish identity, Presbyterian to the DNA, Free Stater politically, but what do you call a Protestant Free stater with ancestors from Tyrone and Down? I think Unionist! She didn't know...... Alas, grandma's dad died young and the kids were put out with relatives so her mom could work. We sank to the servant class and grandma was raised by her Luthern grandparents. So my mother reports her Scotch Irish Christmases were German. This illustrates that Scotch Irish is an American ethnic group.... However my dad is half Scots and half English, a second generation American. I found out what we ate for Christmas was exactly what my Ulster friends were eating: Turkey, succatash, potatoes, gravy, stuffing and figgy pudding! Often my grannie made Chocolate pudding too with raisins, cooked the right way -- for hours boiled in a flour sack in water. But our hard sauce wasn't as grandma descended from Scots Presbyterian dissenters who had found a nice home in a typical Western PA church founded by Irish dissenters 200 years before. My Scotch Irish granddad DID bring the family a Scotch Irish Thanksgiving every year. He went out on the back porch and shot something. That's what you ate. My mother said people dreaded Thanksgiving. One year they had possum. Raccoon, goat, etc. You name it, they had to eat it. It was the Depression. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi guys, We've had the historical gloss (not quite as bad as a Puritan Christmas, perhaps, but not much better <grin>) but what about NOW! We have people on the list who have been raised in Ulster (I'm including Donegal people here!) and who live there now. What do YOU do for Christmas?? Genealogy lovers, we'll get back to genealogy shortly -- or start a thread about genealogy! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

How interesting. Thank you. I would have thought that Scotland and England would have honored Christmas as a holiday much longer ago than 1950. I hope to find some traditions that may have had roots in Scotland and Ireland and carried over to the US. A few years ago I read of an area of Tennessee that carries on a tradition of greeting visitors with "Christmas preseent". For years I had heard my older brothers and sisters use that greeting; but when asked they, didn't know where it came from or why. On seeing that article it gave me a clue; my maternal grandmother's parents were from Tennessee.

It's been several years since I've had time to even look at this list. I'm back now and looking for help. This subject has probably been addressed a long time ago but if anyone can give me a few Christmas traditions(briefly) that are know to have been celebrated by the Scotch-Irish I'd sure appreciate it. I'm working up a program for our genealogy society here in Trinity County, Texas for December and hope to include some traditions that may have been passed down through the generations. Thanks, Ludie

Dear list, this bounced to the admin (Me) instead of the list. Dr. MacMasters has rejoined the list, so send responses and queries to him : RKMacmaster@aol.com, not me as I donno nuttin' more! Linda Merle (Recycle box for Scotch Irish list) ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: RKMacmaster@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 14:38:26 -0700 A happy ending for work of Victorian artist who brought literature to life By Paul Kelbie Published: 18 November 2005 in The Independent An artist whose work brought to life many of English literature's greatest characters and chronicled the social conditions of the Victorian age is to be honoured, 85 years after his death. A collection of work by Hugh Thomson, whose illustrations gave form to the personalities described in classics such as William Makepeace Thackeray's Vanity Fair and Jane Austen's Emma, is to go on permanent display in his home town in Northern Ireland after being rescued from a suitcase where they lay forgotten for 30 years. Thomson was born in Coleraine in 1860 and became an accomplished painter after his family moved to Kilrea in the south of the Borough. However it was as an illustrator that his talents shone and he was discovered by the prestigious publishing firm, Marcus Ward of Belfast. Under the tutelage of John Vinycomb, he worked withartists such as Kate Greenaway, J W Carey and Walter Crane before moving to England in 1883. While working for the publishers Macmillan, he earned a reputation as one of the top illustrators of his time, alongside Arthur Rackham and Edmund Dulac. Commissioned to illustrate works by Charles Dickens, Thackeray, Jane Austen, Oliver Goldsmith, Austen Dobson, George Eliot and Shakespeare, he was responsible for creating many of the interpretations still associated with a number of legendary literary characters. "His work offers insight into the social conditions of the Victorian period and his attention to detail records and brings to life the historic landscapes, people and social customs during this period," said a spokeswoman for the National Art Collections Fund, which has given a grant of £40,000 to help acquire the works. "The collection represents a substantial and definitive body of Thomson's work." The 540 watercolours and drawings in the collection - bought by Coleraine Museum from a couple who were given the collection by a nephew of the artist - include original drawings for Vanity Fair andEmma. Coleraine Borough Council now intends to create a Hugh Thomson Study Room within the Town Hall and a series of travelling exhibitions are being planned. "We are delighted that with this collection our museum now holds the largest known body of his work and the importance of it being returned to his home town cannot be underestimated," said Timothy Deans, mayor of Coleraine. Although his name may not be readily recognised by the general public many of Thomson's works are - until recently characters created by him to illustrate works by J M Barrie were used worldwide on boxes of Quality Street chocolates. An artist whose work brought to life many of English literature's greatest characters and chronicled the social conditions of the Victorian age is to be honoured, 85 years after his death. A collection of work by Hugh Thomson, whose illustrations gave form to the personalities described in classics such as William Makepeace Thackeray's Vanity Fair and Jane Austen's Emma, is to go on permanent display in his home town in Northern Ireland after being rescued from a suitcase where they lay forgotten for 30 years. Thomson was born in Coleraine in 1860 and became an accomplished painter after his family moved to Kilrea in the south of the Borough. However it was as an illustrator that his talents shone and he was discovered by the prestigious publishing firm, Marcus Ward of Belfast. Under the tutelage of John Vinycomb, he worked withartists such as Kate Greenaway, J W Carey and Walter Crane before moving to England in 1883. While working for the publishers Macmillan, he earned a reputation as one of the top illustrators of his time, alongside Arthur Rackham and Edmund Dulac. Commissioned to illustrate works by Charles Dickens, Thackeray, Jane Austen, Oliver Goldsmith, Austen Dobson, George Eliot and Shakespeare, he was responsible for creating many of the interpretations still associated with a number of legendary literary characters. "His work offers insight into the social conditions of the Victorian period and his attention to detail records and brings to life the historic landscapes, people and social customs during this period," said a spokeswoman for the National Art Collections Fund, which has given a grant of £40,000 to help acquire the works. "The collection represents a substantial and definitive body of Thomson's work." The 540 watercolours and drawings in the collection - bought by Coleraine Museum from a couple who were given the collection by a nephew of the artist - include original drawings for Vanity Fair andEmma. Coleraine Borough Council now intends to create a Hugh Thomson Study Room within the Town Hall and a series of travelling exhibitions are being planned. "We are delighted that with this collection our museum now holds the largest known body of his work and the importance of it being returned to his home town cannot be underestimated," said Timothy Deans, mayor of Coleraine. Although his name may not be readily recognised by the general public many of Thomson's works are - until recently characters created by him to illustrate works by J M Barrie were used worldwide on boxes of Quality Street chocolates. ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

My request was for Linda to contact me and she has. Sorry for all the confusion. Linda

I'm sorry I was so confusing this morning when I asked for a reply off-list.

Will you contact me off list, please? Linda Hjelm

Hi folks, On CD# 275 - Genealogical Records: Irish Source Records, 1500s - 1800s are indexed images of the pages from thirteen volumes of Irish census, land, marriage, and probate records. It includes reconstructions of the 1841 and 1851 censuses as well as transcriptions of the surviving 1851 census fragments for County Cork. As well as information regarding wills that was abstracted or copied before the fire in 1922 which destroyed so many wills. Books Included in CD # 275 ·A Guide to Copies and Abstracts of Irish Wills - Rev. Wallace Claire ·Quaker Records, Dublin, Abstracts of Wills - P. Beryl Eustace, and Olive C. Goodbody ·Irish Marriages - Henry Farrar ·Return of Owners of Land in Ireland 1876 ·County Cork, Ireland, a Collection of 1851 Census Records -Josephine Masterson ·Ireland: 1841/1851 Census Abstracts (NorthernIreland) - Josephine Masterson ·Ireland: 1841/1851 Census Abstracts (Republic of Ireland) - Josephine Masterson ·Indexes to Irish Wills -Five Volumes - William P. W. Phillimore and Gertrude Thrift, eds .·Index to the Prerogative Wills of Ireland 1536-1810 - Sir Arthur Vicars --- So it contains the will indexes/abstracts so key to Irish genealogy: Vicars and Phillimore. For Elizabeth Fayle there were a couple hits: Irish Marriages in Walker's Hibernian Magazine: Bewley, Sam. = Fayle, Elizabeth, d. of Nehemiah, in Limerick Jan 1895. p 34. P 149 also had Robt Fayle Dublin, m. Anne Grubb, d. of Sam. of of Clogheen, both Quakers, at Quaker's meeting house, Garryroan July 1809 Quaker Records, Abstracts of WIlls p 34 has the will of RObert Falye of Killowen, King's Co, farmer. Dated 26 Jun, New Stile, 1753. Leaves wife Jane as sole executrix, 549 pounds and household furniture. CHildren: John, Sarah, Hannah, Thomas are underage. Brothers John Chamberlain and Joshua Fayle. [Could be a brother] Samuel Fayle, Tully, Co., Kildare, farmer, on 1 June 1756 leaves to wife Eizabeth Watson and children his farm of TUlly and farm and freehold in Courtduff, Co Kildare. 1 child is minor. Names brothers WIlliam and Richard Fayle and brother in law. A note says that the children are named in a Fayle pedigree in the T H Webb collection at Eustace Street [Dublin] and they are Mary, Elinor, William, THomas, and Elizabeth. [Could be her] The reference to Eustace Street is to 6 Eustace Street, Dublin, home of the Friends House. According to Falley their family histories are filmed and in Swarthmore. There is an apparent list of the records in Swarthmore filmed from the Friends House on Pp 274-5 of Vol II which is not unpacked. Also (for Forrest) P Byrl Eustace's book of abstracted wills on the CD contains a list of the only wills, 28, preserved in the Records of the Ulster Quarterly Meeting in "the WIll Book of Ballyhagan Meeting" They are abstracted by Lieut-Col JRH Greeves and published in "The Irish Genealogist" Vol. 2, no 8, Oct 1950. LDS might have filmed these family records from Swarthmore or Friends House. I could not find that they had filmed in either place. So in the USA the Fayles family papers are probably in Swarthmore. Before going/paying someone to go, email them to get confirmation. Linda Merle >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Janet McCrosky" <mej@cfanet.com> >To: <QUAKER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 8:18 AM >Subject: [Q-R] Edenderry (near Dublin?), Ireland quaker records and/or site > > >> Does anyone know whether the Edenderry Meeting either in or new Dublin, >> Ireland has an online site or has records that can be accessed through >some >> online site? >> Thank you. Still trying to figure out why our Elizabeth Fayle >> transferred from Edenderry Monthly Meeting to Exeter, PA >> Monthly meeting in 1753. >> Janet >> >> >> ==== QUAKER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >> Quaker-Roots Archives - Search List Messages From 1996 On >> http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >> > > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Forrest Plumstead" <fplum1@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:33:43 -0600 >Can anybody answer this? She is asking about a Quaker Monthly Meeting in or >near Dublin. Thanks for the help. > >Forrest Plumstead WB5HQO >Researching the following Surnames: >Bushouse, Plumstead, Risser, Schroeder, Senne, Thayer, >Quaker Families: Coppock, Heald, Hobson, Hollingsworth, Potts, Ross, Watt >Plumstead and Associated Families: >http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fplum/ >Military Kool Lynx: http://geocities.com/fplum/ >Ham Radio WB5HQO http://forrest.3h.com/main.html > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Janet McCrosky" <mej@cfanet.com> >To: <QUAKER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 8:18 AM >Subject: [Q-R] Edenderry (near Dublin?), Ireland quaker records and/or site > > >> Does anyone know whether the Edenderry Meeting either in or new Dublin, >> Ireland has an online site or has records that can be accessed through >some >> online site? >> Thank you. Still trying to figure out why our Elizabeth Fayle >> transferred from Edenderry Monthly Meeting to Exeter, PA >> Monthly meeting in 1753. >> Janet >> >> >> ==== QUAKER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >> Quaker-Roots Archives - Search List Messages From 1996 On >> http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >> > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Can anybody answer this? She is asking about a Quaker Monthly Meeting in or near Dublin. Thanks for the help. Forrest Plumstead WB5HQO Researching the following Surnames: Bushouse, Plumstead, Risser, Schroeder, Senne, Thayer, Quaker Families: Coppock, Heald, Hobson, Hollingsworth, Potts, Ross, Watt Plumstead and Associated Families: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fplum/ Military Kool Lynx: http://geocities.com/fplum/ Ham Radio WB5HQO http://forrest.3h.com/main.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet McCrosky" <mej@cfanet.com> To: <QUAKER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 8:18 AM Subject: [Q-R] Edenderry (near Dublin?), Ireland quaker records and/or site > Does anyone know whether the Edenderry Meeting either in or new Dublin, > Ireland has an online site or has records that can be accessed through some > online site? > Thank you. Still trying to figure out why our Elizabeth Fayle > transferred from Edenderry Monthly Meeting to Exeter, PA > Monthly meeting in 1753. > Janet > > > ==== QUAKER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Quaker-Roots Archives - Search List Messages From 1996 On > http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >

I found an on line guide to Quaker Research: HTML of a PDF file on Quakers: http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:jNAWWDzPtRwJ:www.rootsweb.com/~flindian/ircl/quaker.pdf+Guide+to+Irish+Quaker+Records+1654-1860&hl=en (View it). The PDF file is here: www.rootsweb.com/~flindian/ircl/quaker.pdf If you type this in it'll download to your computer so check the first to see if you want to download the thing. linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Forrest, I cannot tell you if the Quaker meeting is on line. I seriously doubt it. She should do a google. The Irish Quaker records are still rather obscure because they were not transcribed. So before they can be 'put on line' one must locate individuals who can read 17th century handwriting and are willing to do this free for a very long time. I can't myself read this stuff and I already got a headache so I would not volunteer for such a hideous project. I've seen the originals on film and they are very very hard to read <grin>!! Maybe we will find a dedicated, rich person with the patience, aspirin, and ability to do this. I sure hope so! The resulting book would be a steal at $100. If you check the archives of the list you will find a lot of info on the availability of Quaker records as I did a 'mind dump' after I figured this out a couple years ago. Folks need to check Falley -- the authority on Irish records. As she is in most libraries, I don't have to repeat what the chapter says. "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" is the name of the book. Researchers have to consult this reference to make progress with Irish genealogy. She has chapters on Methodist records, Presbyterian, etc. Unfortunately folks don't read books so they don't get too far with their Irish genealogy. It does (alas) require reading books to get enough information to understand where to look for records. Some of the records are filmed and in LDS, however there is the problem of indexes. There is an index for the Ulster records in the Deputy Keepers Report of 1951-53. IT and film of all these records are in Swarthmore. However Edenbury records are in Dublin. One can go there or use Swarthmore, which has film. LDS may have film too -- all one has to do to find them is go to www.familysearch.org and use the catalog. It's not that easy of course --it's a pain to find things. If she wants to know if they are there I'd be glad to try to find them in the catalog. I can't recall if they are in LDS or not.....Anyone checking these at Swarthmore or Dublin needs to read the chapter in Falley to understand the types of records and how they are organized. Ie it would be really stupid to make the effort to search the Edenbury Monthly Meetings and to not also check other types of records that may also include members of the Edenbury meeting. For example there are wills that include Edenbury wills from 1628 to 1763. These are I believe included on an Irish source CD. Also Eustace and Goodbody included abstracts of these in "Qauker Records, Dublin, Abstracts of Wills". This is aval. as a book and on CD. I got the CD and will fire it up. The biggest pain is an index. The Deputy Keeper's index of the Ulster records is sparce but makes it possible to find things. The handwriting is nightmarish....without an index prepared by folk who can read the handwriting it is next to impossible to read the records from the 1600s and early 1700s. I am not sure what index there is of the Dublin holdings except for the stuff that has been published like the wills. Also the Quakers have done a huge amount of work at putting stuff on line. Mostly this was, the last time I checked, American records. The Irish records are difficult to get access to and difficult to use and read, but maybe things will change. These are records to use as a final resort. However the answer to her question is obvious: she moved!!! The Quaker community maintained close ties across the pond. Business ties were esp. important. Perhaps she married a man and then emigrated or emigrated to marry. Or her family emigrated or she went to live with cousins or other relatives in America. US records probably would give some insight at far less pain than Irish. From personal experience: There's a lot more in Swarthmore than is published, filmed in LDS, or available on the web. So if she's not been to Swarthmore she's not done a thorough stufy of American records -- and so she could be missing the answer to her question. If she married in or out of the Quakers, there'd be a record. If she married a non Quaker she was castigated before the meeting (MOU is the code....kinda like the Zen koan MU <grin>). If she was married in the US records, then of course yo'd want to search Irish records for the marriage. I wold do this as a last resort and consider hiring an American who can check in Swarthmore rather than Dublin. easier. (The MOU-joke was funny after a long day of searching...but maybe I was just hysterical after all them hours <grin>) Good websites: http://scripts.ireland.com/ancestor/browse/records/church/quaker/ http://www.swarthmore.edu/library/friends/ . There's an IMMENSE WALL of cabinets with cards that index the records. There's an IMMENSE index to this card collection about the size of one of those unabridged Dictionaries -- 12 inches or more thick. Then there's the film. Website says: Its holdings include over 3700 linear feet of original archives—membership books, minutes, and other original records. Every time I post on Quakers I get emails warning me about the various types of Quakers. Yes, know about those. No need to risk carpal tunnel with emails on basic info on Quakers. However though I'd done my research before going to Swarthmore I would probably not have been able to get into kindergarden. The librarian is breathtaking. THere's a lot more to know about Quakers. If you go there, use the librarian to save eons of time. Best of luck!! Linda MErle Best of luck! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >> Does anyone know whether the Edenderry Meeting either in or new Dublin, >> Ireland has an online site or has records that can be accessed through >some >> online site? >> Thank you. Still trying to figure out why our Elizabeth Fayle >> transferred from Edenderry Monthly Meeting to Exeter, PA >> Monthly meeting in 1753. >> Janet >> >> >> ==== QUAKER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >> Quaker-Roots Archives - Search List Messages From 1996 On >> http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >> > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

-----Original Message----- From: Pat Banks [mailto:tencreek@tpg.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2005 9:47 AM To: Antrim@irishgenealogy.net Subject: Magill/Islandmagee/Larne Greetings dear friends Once again I am on my annual search for a needle in a haystack although, this time, we might call the 'needle' a 'bodkin'!!! 1) Last night, very late, I put 'John Magill' in the LDS Familysearch site and came up with John Magill born 1838 Islandmagee, Antrim, married to Mrs Nancy Magill. The given marriage date was approximate but actually five years adrift. (I have the record from the Marriage Register of !st Presbyterian Church, Cairnspindle, Islandmagee plus their marriage certificate). Death dates for both are correct along with death dates of the only two of their six children mentioned in the entry. 2) A further search came up with John Magill, son of Arthur Magill and Sarah, born 1839 in Larne. The birth of John and Nancy's eldest daughter, Elizabeth Mary, is in the IGI under Larne so I presume this would have been the Registery Office for Islandmagee? John and Nancy's marriage certificate gives John's father as Arthur Magill. Nancy's father was Capt. John Mawhinney. In both instances there is the mind-blowing message: "Record submitted after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. No additional information is available......" (There is nothing in Ancestral File). My question is. Is the person who submitted the entry on this List, please? It takes one's breath away to know there is someone out there who apparently knows something about the family but remains a mystery! Pat Banks (nee MAGILL) great-granddaughter of John and Nancy through their second son William Magill.. Perth Western Australia Researching: MAGILL Co.Antrim MAWHINNEY Co. Antrim

Hi Pat, Stuff in IGI is of two types: 1. abstracted index of a primary source (like Irish Civil Registration) 2. patron submissions. You need to be very care because all the data is secondary. In all cases you must find the original document in order to determine if the item is really what you hoped it was and also to hopefully find more stuff that is NOT in the index. So you always need to evaluate the source and generally obtain a film of the original record. Patron submissions have a very low degree of reliability as no proof is required for submission. The submission may be family oral history or it may be from a primary record like a church record. You don't generally know unless you can find additional information indicating that the family was 'done' by a member. To find that info you would need to search the catalog. Surname search is a good place to start since that'll turn up manuscripts and collections of family history deposited in LDS. Much of this is filmed. It'll also disclose published family histories. >The birth of John and Nancy's eldest daughter, Elizabeth Mary, is in the IGI >under Larne so I presume this would have been the Registery Office for >Islandmagee? No, you can't assumed anything. You need to find the source. If you click on the film that it came from you might be able to ID the source. Otherwise perhaps the source of this info is a gas attack by an old lady <grin>! >John and Nancy's marriage certificate gives John's father as Arthur Magill. >Nancy's father was Capt. John Mawhinney. > >In both instances there is the mind-blowing message: "Record submitted >after 1991 by a member of the LDS Church. No additional information is >available......" (There is nothing in Ancestral File). So this is a clue but it is not proof. It needs followed up on. Actually patron submissions are depressing to find because usually you can't get further info (that's why it says "No additional information ...." <grin>) and the credibility of the entry is the very lowest. You should be thinking "Durn,... a patron submission!" >My question is. Is the person who submitted the entry on this List, please? I would be very surprised if they are. If you go to the LDS website and search through the free aids you'll find a couple that can help you locate the source. That's if you can't just click on the film number for the entry and get the film number. The film with the patron submissions may have additional info that will lead you to more clues. Usually I don't bother to follow up on patron submissions. Instead I try to locate primary records to verify the info. >It takes one's breath away to know there is someone out there who apparently >knows something about the family but remains a mystery! Actually that person may have nothing but misleading information. There are no standards. You can submit Daffy Duck's genealogy and it would probably go in without a hitch. To give you an example of what happens, on a non Scotch Irish line of my mothers, I recently got an email from a very enthusiastic distant cousin, just starting out. He offered to share his family info and was interested in how my line fit into his. I told him some brief stuff. He claimed his relatives had huge amounts of information. I asked what the source was. He asked several genealogy-adicted relatives who all told him the same thing: all their stuff came from us. Now this is a line that no one has really 'researched'. Ie 100% of what we know was collected by my great uncle, mother, and sister via oral family history. No one went to the county records office and reviewed even a single marriage certificate. No one did any census work. It's completely unreliable. Now I do not know if it is in IGI, uploaded by some 'genealogist' who lacks the ability to even visit the county records office. Whether it is in IGI or not it is entirely uncredibable. Yet all kinds of remote cousins are sharing this information as if it were gold. It's crap. One day one of them will upload it to IGI, if it is not there now. I told the cousin that it was worthless and of course I did not hear back from him. No matter how many people forward that research on, it could be all wrong till one person actually does some research and proves it, providing sources such as: civil registration, wills, deeds, censuses, church records, cemetery records, obits etc, etc. If you think your ancestor came from the Larne area, then you shold be reading local history on the area. The key to Irish genealogy is local history. There's a wealth of it. To start, consult Ryan "Irish Records", Antrim chapter. You can try the Antrim list and the archives of this list. LDS catalog will also have some sources for you as well. If you check our website at http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle you will find links to some of the best genealogy websites on the Internet that will have a lot of what is in Ryan "Irish Records" (but not what is in Falley). Beyond these there are experts in Larne and Islandmagee local history. Some publish and are active in the Ulster Scots Agency...gee, what's its name?? Recently sent me their newsletter... All my stuff is packed away or I'd dash off some names. A Broadisland Journal springs to mind. Check our archives: www.rootsweb.com -- under Mail Lists select interactive search, then type in Scotch-Irish . Best of luck! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Walt, If the father had a skilled trade, again, most likely they were from east Ulster. As for sources, you can check the usual sources for Irish genealogy (off our website), and consult Ryan "Irish Records". There's a huge amount of stuff you can search as well as a lot of strategies you can employ. Far more than we can put in an email. So I or someone here could name something and it wouldn't pan out. You really need to learn about the basic sources for your time period in Ireland. ALL of them and how they are used. For that a book or course is needed. SInce you have the maiden name of the mother and suggest they were married in Ireland, Civil Registration is the first thing to check. The indexes are widely available through LDS as are films of the actual records. I suggest that you do more research in the USA. If you've been here long then you've seen me refer people to www.genealogy.com/university.html which has courses (free) in migration research. There are sources you can use in the USA that might nail down the location of origin for you. Such as naturalization records, tombstones, obits, etc. There's a zillion McK's in Ireland. To figure out which are yours you need clues. For clues, read the above course and gather all the clues you can in the USA as you'll need them to do Irish genealogy. I have packed away a good book on Irish immigration to the USA. It explains that more Irish left from Liverpool than left from ALL of Ireland. If you visit the UK and Ireland, you'll discover the place is small. You can drive in a car from Louth fo Donegal in a couple hours. You can drive from the west coast of Ireland (Donegal) to Belfast in a few more. IT's small. People had legs and they moved about quite well on them. You don't provide enough info for anyone to guess how they might have moved about. Then you'd need to check to see what trains, etc, were about in your timeframe. The sweet point of this list is more the 17th century than the late 19th. WIthout any info re their economic status, seriously, we'd have to use a tarot deck to get a bead on their method of travel. There are lots of small ports on the coast of Ireland and while many have fallen into disuse today, many were still very active in the 1890s for both crossing the Irish sea and traveling up and down the coast of Ireland. Best of luck!!! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "WaltIrish1" <WaltIrish1@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:43:15 -0400 >G'day All , > Hope these few words find things going well. Could anyone >be so kind as to give an opinion. Any help is just great. > > My first 2 McKenzie ancestors per above Subj. most likely >resided in Ulster, probably Antrim/Derry area (Ballymoney). Ship >passenger info* is as follows : > >Name Year Departure Arrival Ship Origin/Residence >John 1880 1) Queenstown, New York, Algeria Ireland (Origin) > Cork, Ire > 2) Liverpool, Eng USA > >Eliz. 1895 1) Not Indicated Boston, Gallia Ballymoney, Ire > 2) Liverpool, Eng MA, USA (Residence) > > What is the likely way they traveled (boat, buggy etc.) from Ulster to all the way >south to Queenstown in those days ? > Is it more likely that they were from one of the Ballymomey's in Cork or Wexford >etc.and is why they sailed from Queenstown ? > Is another port from Eng more likely than Liverpool if they resided in Ulster ? > > Trying to save ($300 each search), I need help deciding whether >I hire a prof. to search Prost. & Cath. church records 1st for Ballymoney in >Antrim or Cork/Wexford ? > > Indicating any info to me via email would be great. If there is no info, >perhaps one could indicate other sources that might have info or related data. >Your kindness, consideration, time and effort//help is greatly appreciated. >Good luck and all the best with your own genealogy family search. > > TIA with kind regards , > Grandpa Walt-Irish McKenzie, Sr. > Central NJ Shore - Boston Area, MA - USAmerica > 1973-Present 1938-1972 > >---------------------------------------- >* Other supporting data . . . US records (census, b., m., d., obits, cemetery, >church, registers, land, probate, naturalization etc.) only list Ireland as pob, >residence etc. Only ship passenger records for the 2 emigrating ancestors >indicate more specific place names that yields some leads e.g. Ballymoney, Ire >residence and Queenstown, Ire port of departure. Daniel McKenzie b.c. 1815 >Ire & wife Margaret Miller b. Ire (m. c. 1840 or 46) had 2 known children >Elizabeth b.c. June 1841or47 Ire and John b.c. Aug. 1848 Ire both from 1900 >US census. There are a dozen Ballymoney's in Ire and based on all I know, >especially ethnicity (Prost.-Presbyt.) & religion (Catholic-2 ancestors upon >arriving US), its highly likely to be either Ballymoney, Antrim (& adjacent Derry) >or Ballymoney, Cork or Wexford (or Munster), probably Cork. > > > > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

G'day All , Hope these few words find things going well. Could anyone be so kind as to give an opinion. Any help is just great. My first 2 McKenzie ancestors per above Subj. most likely resided in Ulster, probably Antrim/Derry area (Ballymoney). Ship passenger info* is as follows : Name Year Departure Arrival Ship Origin/Residence John 1880 1) Queenstown, New York, Algeria Ireland (Origin) Cork, Ire 2) Liverpool, Eng USA Eliz. 1895 1) Not Indicated Boston, Gallia Ballymoney, Ire 2) Liverpool, Eng MA, USA (Residence) What is the likely way they traveled (boat, buggy etc.) from Ulster to all the way south to Queenstown in those days ? Is it more likely that they were from one of the Ballymomey's in Cork or Wexford etc.and is why they sailed from Queenstown ? Is another port from Eng more likely than Liverpool if they resided in Ulster ? Trying to save ($300 each search), I need help deciding whether I hire a prof. to search Prost. & Cath. church records 1st for Ballymoney in Antrim or Cork/Wexford ? Indicating any info to me via email would be great. If there is no info, perhaps one could indicate other sources that might have info or related data. Your kindness, consideration, time and effort//help is greatly appreciated. Good luck and all the best with your own genealogy family search. TIA with kind regards , Grandpa Walt-Irish McKenzie, Sr. Central NJ Shore - Boston Area, MA - USAmerica 1973-Present 1938-1972 ---------------------------------------- * Other supporting data . . . US records (census, b., m., d., obits, cemetery, church, registers, land, probate, naturalization etc.) only list Ireland as pob, residence etc. Only ship passenger records for the 2 emigrating ancestors indicate more specific place names that yields some leads e.g. Ballymoney, Ire residence and Queenstown, Ire port of departure. Daniel McKenzie b.c. 1815 Ire & wife Margaret Miller b. Ire (m. c. 1840 or 46) had 2 known children Elizabeth b.c. June 1841or47 Ire and John b.c. Aug. 1848 Ire both from 1900 US census. There are a dozen Ballymoney's in Ire and based on all I know, especially ethnicity (Prost.-Presbyt.) & religion (Catholic-2 ancestors upon arriving US), its highly likely to be either Ballymoney, Antrim (& adjacent Derry) or Ballymoney, Cork or Wexford (or Munster), probably Cork. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005