Which explains why every one of my male S-I ancestors is named either John, James, Thomas and the women are all Margarets and Marys. One of the joys of our genealogy. Interestingly, both my German and S-I lines used the maternal grandfather's surname as a middle name for the oldest son's middle name (e.g., my grandfather was Kenneth Cunningham Hilliard). As Linda and Brian pointed out, this can be a HUGE help when searching for clues. For some reason, this stopped with my dad, who was given his grandfather's first name (Alfred) as his middle name. He despised this middle name, which is why he picked mine randomly. As it turns out, I hate my middle name too (Todd). I wanted to go back to this convention when our son was born, but for some reason my wife wouldn't agree to Jacob Gibbens Hilliard, so he ended up a Thomas too. Rob -----Original Message----- From: Brian Orr [mailto:brian@orrnamestudy.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:32 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Sc-Ir] Surnames and namng patterns. Greetings all Here`s a page from my web site about naming patterns which might be of some help. As Linda says, the use of the mother`s maiden surname ( which is also the maternal grandfather) was quite common. Brian Orr Scottish Naming conventions in the 18th - 19th century In the 18th and 19th centuries families tended to name their children in a specific pattern, which can give some guidance to family names. It was also common for the wife`s maiden surname to be used as a second christian name of some if not all children. This can be a valuable guide when the wife`s name is otherwise unknown. Males First-born Son Father's father Second-born Son Mother's father Third-born Son Father Fourth-born Son Father's eldest brother Fifth-born Son Father's 2nd oldest brother or Mother's oldest brother Females First-born Daughter Mother's mother Second-born Daughter Father's mother Third-born Daughter Mother Fourth-born Daughter Mother's eldest sister Fifth-born Daughter Mother's 2nd oldest sister or Father's oldest sister In some cases you will find that the order is reversed with the first and second children, i.e. the First-born son being named after the Mothers father and the Second-born son after the Father's father. If this is the case then the daughters are also usually reversed. It sometimes happens for some special reason such as repaying kindness, that a close friends` surname might be given to a child as a second christian name; in such cases they might also have been the witnesses at marriage or christenings. Remember, too, that witnesses are likely to be relatives, often sisters and aunts, signing under their married name. Top ten Christian names This analysis is derived from my Scottish database holding 15212 names at the date of sampling. The count of names includes variant spellings eg Isbel, Isabel, Isabella, Isobel etc. are all under Isabel. These are mainly names occurring between ca 1600 - 1900. Male Female John 10.73% Margaret 7.82% James 10.05 Janet 6.35 William 8.40 Agnes 4.83 Robert 5.46 Mary 4.78 Thomas 3.57 Elizabeth 3.56 Alexander 2.11 Jean 3.34 David 1.63 Ann 2.49 Andrew 1.10 Isabel 2.22 Hugh 0.91 Jane 1.95 George 0.91 Marian 1.30

Hi Rob..... >Which explains why every one of my male S-I ancestors is named either >John, James, Thomas and the women are all Margarets and Marys. One of >the joys of our genealogy. Yeh! If you got a moment or if you are depressed and need cheered up, read the front essay of Black "Surnames of Scotland". He recounts how, due to the degree with which Scots subscribed to what is often called the Scottish naming pattern but is really a European one (or...the ENglish, the French, the Irish, the Dutch, etc, naming pattern, all the same with varying degrees of adherence) that in some small villages where everyone is related, everyone would have the same name, like John Smith. The way people identified you was with a 'by name' -- Red, Fatty, John the Grouch, Dirty John, John the Baker. Sometime the by names 'stuck' and eventually became a surname. He has some funny stories of the assimulation of Irish into Scottish surnames (3 generations, 6 surnames!!) and also of a case in the highlands in the 1700s where your surname shifted based on the landlord. This was in keeping with Scottish clan custom -- you belonged to the head clan, regardless of DNA. So the day after the McDonalds left and the Campbells took over you had babies surnamed Campbell in the church records. Frequently we bear the surname of our ancestors' oppressors. Apparently you are more likely to actually have the DNA of your sept name if its Irish, or so say the experts (not me, I'm just repeating what I've read....). My family recycled old names but not in the 'right' order. My sister had the first male grandchild. Rather than naming him WIlliam after my father or after his own father (a Richard), my sister named him after our great great grandfather Henry Kelly. My father took it in good stead. "Henry the First!" he exclaimed, reminding the festering nest of Irish and Scotch Irish into which he'd married of the existence of the kings of England. This immediately put everyone but him in a bad mood. He was forbade to call Henry that but he'd got in the last word anyway and everyone knew it. I hate my middle name too! Anyway I must report that the Queen of England has apparently bestowed a small blessing on me. Since I have moved, I was putting away trinkets including my empty tea tin collection. I checked to make sure they were empty and not filled with tea or two year old dried fruit or bugs. Inside the QUeen Elizabeth Jubilee tin was a Canadian two dollar bill with her picture on it! Must have been deposited by a Canadian roommate I had had in California. Maybe I should obtain a "George Bush" tea tin and see what manifests. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Barbara, Hyphenated last names came into vogue among the upper classes. It was one way to retain a prominant surname on the maternal side. I am not sure when this started to occur but by 1900 it was occuring. Also middle names are rather recent. Again their use began among the upper classes and 'trickled down' so that today most of us have middle names. My personal experience with them is in Scotland, where certain lines of my father's family began to use them in the 1700s. Sure enough these appear to be middle class people, in the trades, with pretences of upward mobility. The great win is that they often used the mother's surname so you get a clue to her surname. More modern usage in the USA of course is not standard. My great grandmother's middle name was Grant but there is no Grant in any of our lines. I believe she was named after Ullyses S. >Hill Dickey married Elizabeth Millar in 1900. They >have a daughter Mary Sarah Dickey (haven't found her >baptism record yet) Check for the civil registration records. In 1900 all births in Ireland should be registered. Most likely most Protestant ones were. The indexes to these are filmed by LDS and often permanently in local centers. You can get a list of the film at www.rootsweb.com/~bifhsusa . They take a bit of learning to use like most things <grin>. Then you can order the film with the actual birth record. THis is preferable to ordering the birth certificate in Dublin for several reasons: 1. Cheaper and maybe faster. 2. In Dublin once one has found the entry in the index, one queues up and waits for the staff, always in very short supply, to go get the entry. They will select it and blank out all entries below and above it on the page. They will photography JUST the one entry and cut the piece of paper to a strip about 2 inches long and (eventually) give it to you. ON the other hand even if you must hire someone in Salt Lake or locally to get it, you get a roll of film for about $4.00 with many many births, perhaps a whole year. You can look for others, cousins, etc. You can see th e names of all the children being born in the parish. Perhaps you will recognise some of these as neighbors in the USA or where ever they moved. It is possible they have improved service in Dublin, but I have it from the professionals who research there that it is not good. Eh....I think that's all my reasons <grin>!!! The whole set of indexes is at the LDS Library in Los Angeles and most of them were at the center I used in Orange County. In locales with lots of Irish immigration, you may find that the film with the indexes is waiting for you already. who is married in 1928 (is a >spinster) and dies with her first child. The child is >named on his baptism record as Hill Dickey Williamson >Stewart. His father is William James Stewart and his >mother is now Mary Sarah Dickey Williamson. Hill >Dickey is not found signing the Ulster Covenant in >1912 ( 12 years after his marriage) BUT a Hill Dickey >Williamson is. Very interesting!! Maybe he did hyphenate it or just shifted his name. We aren't allowed to change our social security number at whim but even today we can change our name. It is possible that he legally changed it. By the 1900s you have various types of of records to research such as voting records. I'd consult eventually with a professional researcher who knows the period (20th century). Our expertise here is 18th century! >I realize I have to pin down a few more facts but I am >getting very fascinated with this family and if Hill >Dickey is later Hill Dickey Williamson then why the >name change????? That could be difficult to ever know unless he documented why he changed his name. Perhaps he was pissed off at his father. Perhaps he received an inheritance that required that he adopt the surname Williamson. Perhaps as heir to a Williamson he decided he wanted to do this. Again, there may be legal paperwork that is findable that will give you the answer to this question. The nobility and the gentry did take up different surnames to 'preserve' it. You can find plenty of evidence of that free at the PRONI website (is it www.proni.uk.gov??) where immense amounts of history of prominant families and their estates is posted. We eventually all should require information about the estate our ancestors lived on or owned as it is in the estate papers that information survives that is not in government records. IN any case they are fascinating reading. Best of luck!! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Thanks for your comments. I think an inheritance would explain it. I probably am on the wrong track all together but eventually will have more records which I'm sure will elucidate rather than confuse the situation. Barbara Braswell __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

A new twist on surnames. Has anyone come across the use of hyphenated last names in Ireland research? I have come across a particular situation where another surname appears to have been added. Hill Dickey married Elizabeth Millar in 1900. They have a daughter Mary Sarah Dickey (haven't found her baptism record yet) who is married in 1928 (is a spinster) and dies with her first child. The child is named on his baptism record as Hill Dickey Williamson Stewart. His father is William James Stewart and his mother is now Mary Sarah Dickey Williamson. Hill Dickey is not found signing the Ulster Covenant in 1912 ( 12 years after his marriage) BUT a Hill Dickey Williamson is. I realize I have to pin down a few more facts but I am getting very fascinated with this family and if Hill Dickey is later Hill Dickey Williamson then why the name change????? I wouldn't think it was the same person except for the addition of Williamson on the baptism record of the mother (his daughter) and her son. Oh well - back to the records!! Barbara Braswell __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/

In a message dated 11/29/2005 1:27:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kinshipmatters@twmi.rr.com writes: I was just on Castle Garden looking around for my Scots/Irish. For a lot of the younger unmarried women folk it lists their occupation as: "Servant, Gentleman's Servant" WHAT is that? A person who took personal care of a "gentleman" (meaning rich man), like ironing his clothes, helping him dress, fetching and carrying at the whim of the gentleman. Did you ever see the old TV series "Family Affair"? Mr. French was a gentleman's servant. Never heard it applied to a woman.

Thanks for your response. That's what I thought... but it's only the younger unmarried women. -----Original Message----- From: Patscga@aol.com [mailto:Patscga@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 1:45 PM To: kinshipmatters@twmi.rr.com; Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] job titles of female immigrants In a message dated 11/29/2005 1:27:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kinshipmatters@twmi.rr.com writes: I was just on Castle Garden looking around for my Scots/Irish. For a lot of the younger unmarried women folk it lists their occupation as: "Servant, Gentleman's Servant" WHAT is that? A person who took personal care of a "gentleman" (meaning rich man), like ironing his clothes, helping him dress, fetching and carrying at the whim of the gentleman. Did you ever see the old TV series "Family Affair"? Mr. French was a gentleman's servant. Never heard it applied to a woman.

Hi everyone, I was just on Castle Garden looking around for my Scots/Irish. For a lot of the younger unmarried women folk it lists their occupation as: "Servant, Gentleman's Servant" WHAT is that? Donna

From noon on 30th November and for one week only, the Scotsman Digital Archive will be FREE to everyone. You can instantly search every single edition of the Scotsman from 1817-1950. Explore your past or discover your family ties... The Scotsman newspaper has been published in Edinburgh continuously since 1817. _The Scotsman Digital Archive_ (http://archive.scotsman.com/) - what will you find? The link is _http://archive.scotsman.com_ (http://archive.scotsman.com/)

How wonderful. Thank you for sharing. Ludie ----- Original Message ----- From: RKMacmaster@aol.com To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 8:05 AM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Daily Scotsman 1817-1950 Available On Line >From noon on 30th November and for one week only, the Scotsman Digital Archive will be FREE to everyone. You can instantly search every single edition of the Scotsman from 1817-1950. Explore your past or discover your family ties... The Scotsman newspaper has been published in Edinburgh continuously since 1817. _The Scotsman Digital Archive_ (http://archive.scotsman.com/) - what will you find? The link is _http://archive.scotsman.com_ (http://archive.scotsman.com/)

And in Cornish it appears as 'map', ie 'map Kernow' = 'son of Cornwall'. Cheers Pat Pat Banks Perth Western Australia CFHS 03548 OPC for St.Levan and Mullion, Cornwall Researching: COCK Mullion, Cornwall GEORGE Illogan and Townshend, Cornwall OSBORNE St.Levan, Cornwall POLGLASE Breage and Kerthenwood, Cornwall MAGILL Co.Antrim MAWHINNEY Co. Antrim -----Original Message----- From: Rob D [mailto:robertdoragh@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 12:36 AM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Sc-Ir] Name changes LOYD Hello Virginia, LOYD is a Welsh name, as is Lloyd. Welsh is a Celtic language related to Cornish (Kernow) in the SW of England and Breton in Northern France. Irish or Erse, Scottish Gaelic and Manx (from the Isle of Man) form the second living Celtic group. Welsh has letters and sounds that English does not have like 'dd' - th and 'll' - cl. LOYD would be pronounced as it looks while LLOYD would be CLOYD. As far as I know those who keep to the old form would use LOYD but LLOYD is the usual one now. The British Prime Minister, born in Manchester, England, of Welsh ancestry was David Lloyd George. Other common Welsh names are POWELL, PRICE and PUGH. The Welsh version of Mc, Mac and O' is ap so ap Hywel, ap Rhys and ap Hugh over time became POWELL, PRICE and PUGH. Rob Doragh, Liverpool UK Virginia Beck <ginia2@san.rr.com> Subject: Name changes Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 This exchange about Mac - Mc name changes sparked an idea about one of my brick walls, Edward Loyd Neil. Does the spelling of the names - Loyd and Neil - with the single "L", signify anything? Is it a common spelling in Ireland or Scotland? and would it likely have once been McNeil or MacNeil?

Hello Barbara, Lancaster was one of the early centres of the Quakers in the UK. The Meeting House dating from the 1600s is still there. A Quaker website www.quakerinfo.com/lancastr.shtml has some info for you on Lancaster and www.quaker.org has a piece on Quaker genealogy. If you put 'quaker genealogy' into google you'll be surprised at the number of hits. If you put in 'Quaker Hynde' you'll get a couple of hundred hits but they'll need sorting for usefulness. Rob Doragh Liverpool UK I trained as a teacher in Lancaster. Beautiful city. Barbara Finney <bf2@swbell.net> Subject: Name changes Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 searching for ancestors of Joseph Hinds who first appeared in 1732 in Morris County, NJ, USA. Brigham Young Uni putting all their books on line and one of these books gave me a new clue. looking for a Mary Hinds of Bucks County, Pa, whom I believe to be an aunt. According to the book, her name was originally Hynde. Her father, Richard Hynde, was from Lancaster, UK. Does this seem probable or even likely? Richard was a Quaker but I would not think that this is material.

Hello Virginia, LOYD is a Welsh name, as is Lloyd. Welsh is a Celtic language related to Cornish (Kernow) in the SW of England and Breton in Northern France. Irish or Erse, Scottish Gaelic and Manx (from the Isle of Man) form the second living Celtic group. Welsh has letters and sounds that English does not have like 'dd' - th and 'll' - cl. LOYD would be pronounced as it looks while LLOYD would be CLOYD. As far as I know those who keep to the old form would use LOYD but LLOYD is the usual one now. The British Prime Minister, born in Manchester, England, of Welsh ancestry was David Lloyd George. Other common Welsh names are POWELL, PRICE and PUGH. The Welsh version of Mc, Mac and O' is ap so ap Hywel, ap Rhys and ap Hugh over time became POWELL, PRICE and PUGH. Rob Doragh, Liverpool UK Virginia Beck <ginia2@san.rr.com> Subject: Name changes Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 This exchange about Mac - Mc name changes sparked an idea about one of my brick walls, Edward Loyd Neil. Does the spelling of the names - Loyd and Neil - with the single "L", signify anything? Is it a common spelling in Ireland or Scotland? and would it likely have once been McNeil or MacNeil?

Some of the Hamilton clan passed this way through Ohio with the church group coming out of Abbeville and Chester, South Carolina. I have been researching this group for awhile and still lots to learn. Rev. Thomas Clark and Rev. William Martin and his five shiploads of settlers. I am related to Rev. Alexander Porter who brought many up to Ohio and beyond. Please see our board's website at www.historichopewell.com<http://www.historichopewell.com/> Sincerely ,Robert Simpson

Hi Janet , That's great . . . thanks so very much. Walt ----- Original Message ----- From: <JustJanet223@aol.com> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 2:36 PM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Grandpa > Walt. > > When it shows a dash "& two legs under the c) it means that something was > left out, in this case, it should have been Mac shortened to Mc. This is how > my grandfather wrote his name of McArthur & it was explained to me years ago > what it meant. > > Janet > New England USA > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/184 - Release Date: 11/27/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/184 - Release Date: 11/27/2005

Hello Linda, It is always refreshing reading your E-Mails. I can't help chuckling when I read them. Not only are they helpful but it shows us not to be too serious and to enjoy our search even if there may be frustrations. I make copies of some of them, because researching No. Ireland can be intimidating & I can re-read them again for help. Hope you are enjoying Pa. Janet New England USA

Walt. When it shows a dash "& two legs under the c) it means that something was left out, in this case, it should have been Mac shortened to Mc. This is how my grandfather wrote his name of McArthur & it was explained to me years ago what it meant. Janet New England USA

As Linda said spelling before 1900 is very inconsistent, and my spelling still stinks. I have two McNeil families. Both have been found in various documents as McNeil and MacNeil. One is Methodist they other Catholic; both have Scottish ties. My grandmother use MacAree with 'ac' as small by the top of the 'M' on her marrgiage license; though every other doc has McAree. I have a Byrnes spelled: Burnes, Burns, Buyrnes, and Byrnes, which is the spelling it finally settled on. I have an Rorke that has been spelled: Rork, Rorke, Ruark, Rourk, and Rourke. All by the way with and without the 'O.' My Pattisons spelled their Pattison but many documents use Patterson, Patison, and Paterson - they didn't do spelling. The there is Margaret Abbott Pattison; who with her daughter Margaret suddenly changed their names to Frances around 1880. The nice part is now I know why my grandmother was named Frances. ____________________________________ "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

Hi folks, much of "The Book of Ulster Surnames" is abstracted and in our archives (www.rootsweb.com, scroll to 'Mail Lists" click on 'Interactive Search", type in Scotch-Irish and search for your surname. It's a good gift to give yourself for Christmas. Here's a 'classic': McCaughey (Caughey, Hackett, MacCaughan, MacGahey, MacGaughey). These are from the same Irish name, a personal name anglicized to Aghy. You also find Cahey, MacAghy, and MacCaghey from the same). Though MacCaughan and MacCahon derive from a different name, they have become MacCaugheys (plus all the variants). They are all Ulster names but are from different regions. MacCaughey and MacCahey are from Tyrone and Antrim. Caughey is in Down and some in Antrim. MacGahey is Monaghan and Antrim and MacGaughe in Armagh and Antrim. So the spelling can help you guess where the family came from. MacCaughan and MacCahan are from nothern Antrim and Derry but some claim they were O'Cahons of the Route. (The Route O'Cahons are the source of some of our Kanes, McKain, O'Kanes, etc though some are Scots and English in origin). This is why we drink a lot!!! Hackett is Englihs but in Ulster in Tyrone and Armagh it is a synonym for MacCahey and MacGahey. He doesn't tell us why....Usually he does but here he doesn't. SO that means a guy could use Hackett or McCahey interchangably. WOuldn't confuse his neighbors and friends, but could confound the descendent trying to do genealogy. The book is full of clues to where precisely your ancestors came from based on spelling as well as alternative names to try if you are coming up blank. Because of the mix of Irish, Scots, English, and Welsh names (a 'lost' English colony in the late 1500s by Marcher lords) Ulster is probably the most diverse and complex place to research surnames, outside of London. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi folks, We are told by the gurus (who teach the classes and write the books) that the main reason amateurs fail to bag their man is that they think name changes are significant. So those who think there is a difference between a Mc and Mac name or the way a name is written (little c, big c, no c at all, just a ' as in M'Elhattan) apparently slept through that part of the talk (I saw you there.....!!!). You can read more about this in the archives of the list and a few books named in the archives. Also if you have access to the standard surname books, they have short front essays on the evolution of British surnames. To summarize, English spelling was very late in standardization. If you doubt this, www.google.com for "The Faery Queen" by Spenser, an Irish immigrant living in Queen Elizabeth I's time. Spenser did go to school but his spelling is very creative. Our surnames were spelled phonetically. You had thousands of accents, each hearing and pronouncing names differently. Even the notion of a surname is very recent in some areas: Wales, the highlands, and Ulster. In Robert Bell's "The Book of Ulster Surnames" (the definitive work on Ulster surnames), he details many names that were used interchangable with others as late as 1900. I just opened it randomly and on my first attempt found on p 303 under NELSON that around 1900 Helson and Neilson were used interchangable in south Armagh. At various times and places people attempted to affix ethnic tags to surname spellings but these of course have no bearing on the religious and ethnic identities of ancestors, just of the current bearers. When there is no standardized spelling and no concept of a fixed surname, changing it is a no brainer. In fact the majority of our ancestors viewed a surname as a nasty thing, like a social security number. It was imposed by law by the British Gov in Wales, Ireland, and the highlands of Scotland. It's only purpose our ancestors knew was to make it easier for the government to draft you or hang you or make you pay more taxes. The same is true of the Social Security number. Names, the gov now knows, are too dang slippery to actually use to bag taxpayers and cannon fodder. We got to keep this in mind when bagging ancestors too <grin>. Thank the lord for DNA as now at least we have hope. So don't stump your toe on the most obvious rock in the path. There is no difference between a Mc and a Mac. If you think there is, read the definitive works on the topic and attempt to recant them. I think you will find that you can produce little evidence to the contrary (excepting of course what Grandma might have said !!). My maiden name is MASON, an occupational surname. Y ou'd think any fool could spell MASON, but in researching them in church records, I've found an astonishing array of spellings: Mazon, Maison (dude had too much French under his belt!), Masonne,to name a couple. If they couldn't spell MASON they sure can't spell our Gaelic surnames. They being officials writing down the name. Even if our ancestor had a notion how it was spelled, do you think the vicar, priest, or minister gave a toot?? He didn't. Nor did the sheriff or tax collector. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net