In a message dated 12/3/2005 6:04:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, ginia2@san.rr.com writes: In an on-line search, I have been unable to confirm this naming pattern, but in actual research I have come across families where every son was given the same first name - e.g. "Johann", but was always known by his middle name. The same for daughters, where "Maria" seems to have been a favorite. My late husband's immigrant ancestor was Johann Antony or Antonius Beck. He anglicized his name and was known in America as Anthony. Has anyone else heard of this custom? If so, was it restricted to Germany? While I cannot confirm if it was restricted to Germany, my father's German (Emrick) side, seemed to conform to this naming pattern. They used John as the first name, but went by their middle names. Therefore, if you don't know their middle name, it makes it hard to do research. My Scotch-Irish side followed the Irish naming patterns fairly closely as well.

This sounds akin to what I've been told was the German custom of giving children an "honorary" first name. Some say this was a Saint's name, others that it could be that of a revered leader or ancestor. In the 16-1700s these were Protestants, but I suppose it could have been a Catholic naming convention they continued to follow. In an on-line search, I have been unable to confirm this naming pattern, but in actual research I have come across families where every son was given the same first name - e.g. "Johann", but was always known by his middle name. The same for daughters, where "Maria" seems to have been a favorite. My late husband's immigrant ancestor was Johann Antony or Antonius Beck. He anglicized his name and was known in America as Anthony. Has anyone else heard of this custom? If so, was it restricted to Germany? Virginia > I thought that the "middle" name's origin (was equivalent to) the > "Christian Name" vs "Given Name" naming convention from the Catholic > Church. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005

<<You should consult with someone who is well versed in 20th century British research (our area is 17th century and 18th) for specific clues or read "Ancestral Trails" by Mark Herber.>> Thanks, Linda. I just bought the book on Amazon. 437 pages! Bettye

On 02 Dec, 2005, at 00:31, BHold1@aol.com wrote: > > <<Also middle names are rather recent. Again their use began > among the upper classes and 'trickled down' so that today most > of us have middle names>> I thought that the "middle" name's origin (was equivalent to) the "Christian Name" vs "Given Name" naming convention from the Catholic Church. T.T.F.N. William H. Magill magill@mcgillsociety.org magill@acm.org magill@mac.com whmagill@gmail.com

In a message dated 12/1/05 11:37:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, simplytroy@hotmail.com writes: > Better to just accept that people of those times just didn't attach the > significance to surnames that we do now. and they didn't attach the significance to CORRECT SPELLING as we do! Ann in MI

Greetings all In my father's family there would appear to be a definite naming pattern - all the first sons were called John, including my own father. Had I been a boy I was told by my parents I would have been called John also but they only had two daughters! My great-grandfather was John but his father was Arthur so, presumably, Arthur had an older brother John. Great-grandfather named his sons John, William, Arthur and Robert. William (my grandfather) called his only son John (my father), Arthur had two sons, Arthur and John, but, without dates, I do not know as yet which was the elder. Robert only had a daughter before he succombed at 29 years of age to pneumonia. On great-grandmother's side her father was John MAWHINNEY, his first son was also John but HIS son was Robert. Robert then had a son whom he called John!!! PHEW!!!! Cheers Pat Pat Banks Perth Western Australia Researching: MAGILL Co.Antrim MAWHINNEY Co. Antrim

Its also an Italian custom, married women used the maiden names. As for naming patterns; the first son the father's father etc etc is called the Irish naming Pattern on irish lists; the German Naming pattern on Germany lists etc. I think it was a standard naming pattern for most groups. I find middles names were used to distinguish between fathers and sons with the same name. An example: Hugh Moore Pattison son: Hugh Edward Pattison. Hugh Edward in fact used Edward though baptised Hugh Edward. On Dec 2, 2005, at 7:41 AM, Linda Merle wrote: > Hi Joyce, this is a Scottish custom. > > Linda Merle > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "Joyce Hamilton" <jhamilton4@earthlink.net> > Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:55:11 -0800 > >> A few years ago, I visited the center and hill cemeteries in >> Blandford, >> Massachusetts (one of the early New England Scotch-Irish towns). Many >> of the >> tombstones there list the women under their maiden names. For >> example, "John >> Hamilton 1755 - 1846 His Wife Ruth Ferguson 1763 - 1848". >> >> I was told that it was customary for a woman to use her own family >> name >> until her husband died. Then she became "the Widow [husband's last >> name]". >> >> Was this a Scotch-Irish custom, or peculiar to Blandford? I've never >> noticed it in an English cemetery. >> >> Joyce Hamilton >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > > > > > ____________________________________ "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

Hi Bettye, >Seriously, Linda, >how often do we see someone with double middle names like his? In 20th century British research I don't think it is a matter of the commonality of double middle names but rather the clues they provide when you do find them. Not only do you have several additional names associated with the family but there is a suggestion that they may be upper class. If so there is a better chance of researching them successfully as they left more records. Of course you must also be aware of the location where the people lived and you must research the locale so you understand it. Ie if they lived in a bad section of town perhaps they were 'spoofing' or were a noble family down in their luck. If on the right side of the railroad tracks, then it is far more likely you will find them in compilations of biographies and that they had a nice obit in the newspaper. They may be discussed in local history and you might find lots of references in the deed books. Not to mention wills, though this is less exciting if they were Irish as so many were destroyed in the FOur Courts Fire. If they were of the upper classes you had best search widely for them as if they owned land in more than one of the countries, their wills were probated in Canterbury (up to I think it was 1858), not in Connecticutt, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or Dublin. (If the rules were followed) And they might be mentioned in London newspapers. Or been elected to Parliament and so appear in the voluminous documentated associated with Parliamentarians. You should consult with someone who is well versed in 20th century British research (our area is 17th century and 18th) for specific clues or read "Ancestral Trails" by Mark Herber. My own family has been on the decline since the death of Queen Lizzie and the take over by the Stuarts. We rose to our heights with Henry VII and Henry VIII . I've done more research into Yorkists during the War of Roses than 20th century upper class British research <grin>! I want the estate back we lost in 1451 I think it was <grin>. This is on a CULMER (Kent)/ BOURCHIER line. Maybe if we could bring back the Plantagenets things would improve for me. That Canadian $2 was the first we've seen of the royal cousins since the death of Lizzie. Happy Hunting, Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Joyce, this is a Scottish custom. Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Joyce Hamilton" <jhamilton4@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 22:55:11 -0800 >A few years ago, I visited the center and hill cemeteries in Blandford, >Massachusetts (one of the early New England Scotch-Irish towns). Many of the >tombstones there list the women under their maiden names. For example, "John >Hamilton 1755 - 1846 His Wife Ruth Ferguson 1763 - 1848". > >I was told that it was customary for a woman to use her own family name >until her husband died. Then she became "the Widow [husband's last name]". > >Was this a Scotch-Irish custom, or peculiar to Blandford? I've never >noticed it in an English cemetery. > >Joyce Hamilton > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

<<Also middle names are rather recent. Again their use began among the upper classes and 'trickled down' so that today most of us have middle names>> I have always speculated that James McCullen Gordon Hutchinson born in 1790 in Antrim must have been part of the upper class. <grin> Seriously, Linda, how often do we see someone with double middle names like his? Bettye

A few years ago, I visited the center and hill cemeteries in Blandford, Massachusetts (one of the early New England Scotch-Irish towns). Many of the tombstones there list the women under their maiden names. For example, "John Hamilton 1755 - 1846 His Wife Ruth Ferguson 1763 - 1848". I was told that it was customary for a woman to use her own family name until her husband died. Then she became "the Widow [husband's last name]". Was this a Scotch-Irish custom, or peculiar to Blandford? I've never noticed it in an English cemetery. Joyce Hamilton

Julie, I know this question was not for me, but I thought you'd be interested in a similar situation in my family. My gg-grandfather was one of 14 children who all produced large families. GG-granddad was number 9. The naming convention was used (with some variations) by most of the first 12 children. You can imagine how confusing it was beginning to get by the time my g-grandfather, Josiah, was born....there were already 9 Joseph's in the family and 9 Janes. Some of the later grandkids began to have the names as middle names. So, here are a few possibilities. 1. There were too many Samuels by the time your ancestor had sons, so he opted out. 2. It was a middle name that may not have been recorded in the documents you have. 3. It was a first name, but the he went by his middle name 4. (This happened in my family) If there's a substantial gap between children, perhaps "little Samuel" didn't live past infancy. That's where I finally found the Alexander I was sure should have been in the family group.....a distant cousin sent me a picture of his headstone that had been found in the back yard of the family home. He was two. All the rest of the family was buried in the local cemetery. 5. The grandfather, Samuel, may have been going by a middle name to prevent the same confusion in his family. 6. Maybe there was a tiff.....but I'd bet it's one of the other reasons. Good luck, Joan Hunter Essex, Ontario Canada -----Original Message----- From: JParks1393@aol.com [mailto:JParks1393@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:11 AM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [Sc-Ir] Question for Brian I have a question for Brian re: naming patterns. My ancestor, Edward, born 1856, named his father as "Samuel" on his marriage license and other documents. While Edward went on to produce six sons, he didn't name any of them Samuel. He named them Edward, John, James, William, Thomas, Joseph, respectively. He also had 3 daughters, which did follow the Scotch naming pattern. "John" would have been his wife's father, and his wife's father's father was an Edward, also. Since I have only documented him back as far as his mother and father, I don't know if his father's father was Edward. My question: isn't it very strange that he wouldn't name one of his son's Samuel after his father? Would that indicate a tiff in the family? Thanks for any opinion you might offer. Julie Parks Searching: Parks, Finley, Doherty, Donnelly, Flynn, McAvoy/McEvoy, Mahoney Hettrick, Cassidy, Donahoe/Donahue, Timmons, Winrow -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.10/189 - Release Date: 11/30/2005

That's the runaround I get with my surname. We go by Semple but I've seen it Sample, Samples and, way back in Scotland, Sempill. I'm sure there are other variations. If you confinie yourself to one spelling in your searches, not only will you limit your results, you'll drive yourself crazy! Better to just accept that people of those times just didn't attach the significance to surnames that we do now. Troy Semple

I have a question for Brian re: naming patterns. My ancestor, Edward, born 1856, named his father as "Samuel" on his marriage license and other documents. While Edward went on to produce six sons, he didn't name any of them Samuel. He named them Edward, John, James, William, Thomas, Joseph, respectively. He also had 3 daughters, which did follow the Scotch naming pattern. "John" would have been his wife's father, and his wife's father's father was an Edward, also. Since I have only documented him back as far as his mother and father, I don't know if his father's father was Edward. My question: isn't it very strange that he wouldn't name one of his son's Samuel after his father? Would that indicate a tiff in the family? Thanks for any opinion you might offer. Julie Parks Searching: Parks, Finley, Doherty, Donnelly, Flynn, McAvoy/McEvoy, Mahoney Hettrick, Cassidy, Donahoe/Donahue, Timmons, Winrow

Hi Bill, >So, this translated to black slaves in America taking on the names of the >slaveholders (lots of them SI)? Yes, from what little I've read that also occurred. Sometimes of course because the owner of the plantation was the daddie. I am sure other people of color assumed surnames when they married. I found a record of a marriage in Campbell Co, VA where a man named Adam McCormack married a woman of color in the late 1700s. She had no surname but apparently her husband purchased her freedom for her prior owner is identified. Their children would have assumed her husband's surname of McCormack but to whether today the descendents of this couple consider themselves white or black -- donno!! Very possibly a mix. In any case they bear the surname McCarmack because they descend from this man and have his genes. I also read somewhere of a community of people of color now living in northern England who had moved from one of the West Indies islands. They descend from Englishmen who had settled the island in early centuries. Apparently they are quite adamant that they are English by right of heritage, not by right of having been colonized by the English in the past. So it is not always correct to assume that people of color are not blood relatives of people without any color (...I guess!) who carry the same surname. Apparently too I heard of a small West Indies island where many Catholic Irish settled in the 1700s and married into the local populace. There you have a population with darker skin of Irish descent who speak or spoke Irish. >I know of at least two McKinneys of color in the NFL. And another retired >from Oakland Raiders. My maiden name MASON is a nightmare to research -- it's a common surname and then some are people of color. (My Masons arrived in the USA by way of Canada in 1870, coming from Durham, England....so unless you can get your colonial Masons back to Durham, I doubt there is a tie-in. Plus we were lead miners in Weardale -- not too likely to be connected to the rich & famous MASONs of Virginia, for example, or maybe not....Eddie Longshanks parked his army in Weardale on his way north to harrass the Scots, so I might bear the genes of anyone in England including Eddie himself but I hope not) Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

<<A new twist on surnames. Has anyone come across the use of hyphenated last names in Ireland research? I have come across a particular situation where another surname appears to have been added.>> One of the most well-known hyphenated surnames in Ireland is Hely-Hutchinson. I don't remember the whole story, but Mr. John Hely took this surname when he married Christina Nixson, the heiress and grand niece of Richard Hutchinson. Bettye Looking for James McCullen Gordon HUTCHINSON born Nov 3, 1790 in Antrim, Ireland (per his obituary). Immigrated in 1811 to NJ/NY area. Died in Biggsville, Henderson, IL in 1852. I have a long line of HUTCHINSON descendents.

Susan askedif the naming pattern was true of English families near Scotland. Turn it round to Scots families in England and the answer is probably yes. There was extensive migration in the 17C because of religious discrimination with very many slipping over the border into Northumberland. In the 18/19 c the population followed the industrial revolution and many Scottish miners from Ayrshire and Fife found work in the huge coal mining area of Northumberland and Durham. In similar vein many of the west of Scotland weavers. cloth workers found their way into the cotton mills of Lancashire. There was therefore a high Scots presence in these areas where traditions would have continued. Brian

Greetings all Here`s a page from my web site about naming patterns which might be of some help. As Linda says, the use of the mother`s maiden surname ( which is also the maternal grandfather) was quite common. Brian Orr Scottish Naming conventions in the 18th - 19th century In the 18th and 19th centuries families tended to name their children in a specific pattern, which can give some guidance to family names. It was also common for the wife`s maiden surname to be used as a second christian name of some if not all children. This can be a valuable guide when the wife`s name is otherwise unknown. Males First-born Son Father's father Second-born Son Mother's father Third-born Son Father Fourth-born Son Father's eldest brother Fifth-born Son Father's 2nd oldest brother or Mother's oldest brother Females First-born Daughter Mother's mother Second-born Daughter Father's mother Third-born Daughter Mother Fourth-born Daughter Mother's eldest sister Fifth-born Daughter Mother's 2nd oldest sister or Father's oldest sister In some cases you will find that the order is reversed with the first and second children, i.e. the First-born son being named after the Mothers father and the Second-born son after the Father's father. If this is the case then the daughters are also usually reversed. It sometimes happens for some special reason such as repaying kindness, that a close friends` surname might be given to a child as a second christian name; in such cases they might also have been the witnesses at marriage or christenings. Remember, too, that witnesses are likely to be relatives, often sisters and aunts, signing under their married name. Top ten Christian names This analysis is derived from my Scottish database holding 15212 names at the date of sampling. The count of names includes variant spellings eg Isbel, Isabel, Isabella, Isobel etc. are all under Isabel. These are mainly names occurring between ca 1600 - 1900. Male Female John 10.73% Margaret 7.82% James 10.05 Janet 6.35 William 8.40 Agnes 4.83 Robert 5.46 Mary 4.78 Thomas 3.57 Elizabeth 3.56 Alexander 2.11 Jean 3.34 David 1.63 Ann 2.49 Andrew 1.10 Isabel 2.22 Hugh 0.91 Jane 1.95 George 0.91 Marian 1.30

So the day after the > McDonalds left and the Campbells took over you had babies > surnamed Campbell in the church records. Frequently we bear > the surname of our ancestors' oppressors. > So, this translated to black slaves in America taking on the names of the slaveholders (lots of them SI)? It seems to be pretty much the same thing, or is this speculation. I know of at least two McKinneys of color in the NFL. And another retired from Oakland Raiders.

Thanks to everyone for your helpful suggestions. I am slowly working through them. To the Webmaster: Hang onto the Canadian $2 bill; they aren't being printed anymore. From John Muirhead