For Beattie, Beaty, Betty, Beatty, Batty and all other spellings Description >This group is established to organize and coordinate a project to test DNA >samples of males with Beaty (all spellings) surnames. The purpose of this >testing is to aid in the determination of ancestry and lineages. the >mailing list is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GenMatch/ >If you want to learn more about this effort, go to the Beatty DNA Project >at http://www.beattydna.org/. Nelda's websites - Please visit http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ Gilpin DNA Project member

Yes, we saw the Brendan boat this summer at folk park in County Clare. I can't recall the name of either the boat or the park at the moment. It certainly didn't look large enough to go across the Atlantic but then most are braver than I am. Thanks for all the information. Ludie ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Andrews To: 'Loudene Tollar' ; Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing While historically Curraghs have been used on the Irish Sea, for some reason they went out of use a long time ago. I've never seen anything except a "Wooden" boat in Northern Ireland Waters, though there are some Curraghs in Donegal. (By Wooden I also count fibreglass and metal.) Neither have I historically ever seen a picture of anything except a wooden boat. It may well be that this is a relic of the Norsemen. Presumably the skin and thin wood frame is a function of technology and availability of materials. Certainly a wooden boat is much longer lasting than a skin one. There has been a bit of a revival of them as historic vessels having been used in 1963 to go to Iona, and then in 1997 (I think) for the same trip. There was also the Brendan voyage to America. Hope that this helps Edward Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Loudene Tollar [mailto:ludiekt@juno.com] Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:12 AM To: Edward Andrews; Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing I'm certainly learning and it is interesting. I was thinking in terms of the curraghs I saw in the south and west of Ireland as possible means of fishing and getting between Scotland and Ireland. Yes, and understand many too poor to own even so small a boat. Ludie

Hi People, Please do not privately email me DNA project links or advise me to google for them. If you know of one, post it to the list. Then it'll be in the archives for others to find. I do not have time to forward private email to the list or to google for these projects. If you wish to help others, please post them to the list. Trying to get good info into the archives here, not increase my personal email. Thanks again!! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Thank you, Gill Actually I know what limestone is. It was just the way Edward used the term with the puffers that threw me. Limestone has been used in building for many years in Texas. The San Jacinto Monument is built of Texas limestone. It was popular in earlier years in central Texas because of being so readily available. Recently it has had a resurgence of popularity to the point of being artifically manufactured. Ludie ----- Original Message ----- From: Gill Smith To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Ludie question about Limestone Hello Ludie - 'tis me again In reply to your question about limestone Limestone rocks are sedimentary( pieces of the earth worn away and deposited on top of each other to form layers- they eventually form rocks) rocks that are made from the mineral calcite which came from the beds of evaporated seas , rivers and lakes and from sea animal shells. This rock is used in concrete production and is an excellent building stone for humid regions. Limestone is used in architectural construction, but apparently not good for tall buildings because of the cost?. Alot of buildings in London are built from Portland Limestone It doesn't stand up well to acid rain The Vale of Clwyd - here in Wales has alot of limestone - it is a glacial valley and you can see lots of little and quite large fossils of marine creatures in the stone. I wonder what our ancestors made of the shapes in the limestone. Some limestone with fossils is used in pre-historic burials as it probaly had a 'magic' attached to it The Burren in Co Clare, Ireland is one of the most famous, composed of karstic limestone - bhoireann stoney place - it has a wealth of archaeology, flora on it's (approx) 300 sq. kilometres and is an archaeologist, botanists and ecologists dream. Texas it seems is richly endowed with centuries old limestone buildings but I don't know anything about these! Hope this helps as my geology is a bit rusty Gill in a warmer Wales

Hi Nelda, I am a Linage 5, you are right! No one that I know of has categorically proven that 'my' Frances Beatty who moved from Newburgh, NY to Western PA in the early 1800s is the son of Robert Beatty. I've spent some time researching this but haven't completed (so I've not given up hope!!): Jane Beatty's parents were Frances Beattie (Beatty) and Jane HALL, from Wallkill, New York. Frances's dad was Robert Beatty, probably the son of John Beatty and Elsie (from http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~merle/Family/index.htm#Beatty ). These folk were Reformed Presbyterians. The records of the RP congregation in Wallkill are sparce. Probably that's why he moved to Western PA -- large congregation there. He may have moved to lands originally granted to one of the Beatty cousins who received Depreciation Land grants from PA. As I said...not done yet with this research. Frances lived in PA all his life. He is not the Frances Beatty in your Carolina line. The other line has no lineage number from the Beatty Project (I am not a member and have no wish to be one). The line is entirely in Scotland and apparently came up from the borders in the early 1600s, moving northward every generation or so through east Lothian. IN the early 1800s they were in Haddington and then moved to Stirling, where they remained in Polmont. They were Free Kirk in the 1840s and so on. That line remained Free Kirk till they emigrated (as DALRYMPLEs) in 1893). My ancestor was a boatman on the canal. As my grannie was a Dalrymple, I know what it is like to look from Cromwells! Though...it is fun to visit Campbell booths at Scottish fairs and make a lot of suggestions.... they get REAL nervous <grin>. Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Nelda Percival" <nelda_percival@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:01:22 -0800 >Hi William and Linda, >This email I think actually goes more to Linda a I only joined this list >when I got her answer to you William, via PML. > >I also descend from the same Beatty family as Linda. There is a Beatty DNA >project at MTDNA.com (all spellings) I think we have 75 members tested? try: >Description >This group is established to organize and coordinate a project to test DNA >samples of males with Beaty (all spellings) surnames. The purpose of this >testing is to aid in the determination of ancestry and lineages. the mailing >list is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GenMatch/ >If you want to learn more about this effort, go to the Beatty DNA Project at >http://www.beattydna.org/. > >Linda, Our Beatty lineage is at my website. But there is a blurp at >connections on the Beatty DNA website: url: >http://www.beattydna.org/Connections.html which you might find interesting. > >Please let me know what you think and Linda maybe we can compare lineages? > >Nelda > >Nelda's websites - Please visit >http://freepages.folklore.rootsweb.com/~bonsteinandgilpin/ >Gilpin DNA Project member > >Source: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: >Hi William, > >Both my parents have BEATTIE lines. If you check the early >records of the Ulster Plantation that are in Hanna "Scotch-Irish", you will >see that in the Irish plantation of Cavan, >Precint of Tullaghgarvy, allocated to 'natives' -- ie Irish, >262 acres went to Henry Betagh, gentleman. The surname >of Beatty is, according to some, Irish in origin. Some >believe it is occupational from the Irish meaning public >vitualler. It is still found in Athlone in its Irish form. >Others believe it orginated in Meath. Most likely, since the >Scots also spoke Erse, it originated in any number of places >like other occupational surnames. > >So some Beatties in Ireland are Irish natives. The descendents >of Henry (above) lost their land in the Cromwellian or >Williamite settlement (I forget). They may well have stayed >on, nearby, say, in Monaghan. Donno..... > >One of my lines is Scottish -- never left, and the other >left Ayre, served in the Irish army in the mid 1600s, was an >officer in King WIlliam's army, received a land grant in >Antrim, it is believed, and definitely took to the ocean in >1729. The second wife of John was the sister of the grandfather >of Dewitt Clinton. One of John's children by Christina Clinton >was the future Rev Charles Clinton Beatty, the first missionary >west of the Alleghenies. Uncle Charlie attended the coronation >of King George in Engerland (his Clintons were English gentry >who once held the earldom of Lancaster) and died in Barbados, >converting the locals. > >I believe there is a Border clan DNA study (google) that may >be the fastest way to determine the origin of your Beatties. >Nonetheless as a double Beattie, I will welcome you to the >clan if you will help round up the Maxwells who took our land. > >I need to get my dad's DNA tested. We have an occupational >surname. Donno who we really 'are'!!! We lost our clan!!! >We have no identity.... Probably we'll do the border DNA >project as we're from Weardale, Co Durham. > >Linda Merle > > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Ann, for starters, type in www.google.com and search for Whiteford Antrim. You were tu rn up a lot of interesting links: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/IRL-ANTRIM/2000-01 Here is a watchmaker in Dunluce: http://www.heritage.nf.ca/society/rhs/rs_listing/112.html Happy Hunting! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Gill Smith" <gilliandavies@lineone.net> Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:15:27 -0000 >Hello Anne > >Have you tried looking at any Co Antrim sources there were alot of >Whitefords there.... I think.... > >Just a suggestion that might help > >Cheers >Gill - N Wales > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Perplexed" <awhitefo@bigpond.net.au> >To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:39 AM >Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel Crossing > > >> Thanks very much for the photo. It graphically illustrates the short >> distance. >> >> My ggg grandfather James Whiteford was born in Ireland (according to the >> 1841 and 1851 Scottish Census) on 3 May 1826 and christened in >> Campbeltown, Kintrye Scotland on 11 May 1826. He lived in Campbeltown >> until he migrated to Melbourne in 1852. I'd love to know where he came >> from in Ireland but that may remain one of my family history mysteries. >> >> I understood from listers to the Argyll board that there was regular >> travel between Kintyre and Ireland, especially from Antrim. But the photo >> really show how this was possible in a way that explanations don't. >> >> Thanks >> >> Anne >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mark Thompson" <wmthompson@btinternet.com> >> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:57 AM >> Subject: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel Crossing >> >> >>> To pick up on Edward's point, the sea crossing is very short. I live near >>> one of the wee harbours he refers to, and I know local people who jetski >>> across to Scotland. A local guy has a RIB boat and he can get from >>> Ballywalter harbour in Ulster to Portpatrick harbour in Scotland in 25 >>> minutes! (lots of fuel and horse power!) >>> >>> If you have a look at this link you can see a photo I took up near Torr >>> Head in County Antrim this summer. The Mull of Kintyre is amazingly >>> close. >>> >>> http://www.lowcountryboys.com/hismap6.html >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mark >>> >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Thanks to all who have told us of DNA projects. Please, anyone aware of any others, let us know!! I got a gggrannie surnamed ERVIN (200 spelling variants) born in Fence Houses, Durham, England around 1830. Alas, no Y chromosomes to test to find her roots. I haven't been able to find a baptism. Still are some adjacent parishes up thar that aren't filmed that must check in Durham next time I am back. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Gill, I have also read that the Irish had the earliest 'surnames'. I put it in quotes because they were actually sept names. Apparently this began happening before the Normans came. However a study of Irish surnames shows that when an important person came along, a new sept was spawned. So over time the number of sept names expanded. Also in the medieval period the Normans arrived. Largely they only managed to hold onto the "Pale" as it was called, eastern Ireland. Not Ulster, which was protected by the mountains. South of Ulster the marcher lords, largely from the marches near Wales as well as Wales, are believed to have brought over tenants to farm and settle. The Irish considered farming to be beneath them. They had a warrier society. So they didn't take well to farming. Some did. So in the Pale you had a mix of settlers from Britain and natives. Relations between the 'wild Irish' and the English became so bad that eventually laws were passed against intermarriage, wearing of Irish clothing, etc. The Statues of Kilkenny (http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/Eire/7.8.2.html ) in 1366 forced Irish living in areas controled by the English to take English-style names. I believe they were given choices like a color, occupation, etc. So many a fine Irishman doesn't have a thousand year old sept-name. It is still believed by some surname experts that Irish are more likely to have actual DNA related to the sept whose name they bear than Scots. That's because in Gaelic Scotland, since they were not conquored by the Normans and later the ENglish, the sept system evolved or devolved (depending on your point of view <grin>) into a geographical-based system. People were adopted into the clan that controlled the territory. As septs alligned themselves with others, we have the notion of related septs. When the Campbells took over from the McDonalds, immediately Campbells appeared in the baptism records and McDonalds disappeared because people automatically shifted their 'surname' to the dominant clan's name. The idea that the surname was somehow attached to the individual was not one they had at all. It was a sign of territorial allegience. IN Ulster, heavily influenced by Gaelic Ireland and Gaelic Scotland, we are told by Bell "Book of Ulster Surnames" that some used various surnames interchangably as late as 1900. Sometimes they were an anglicized version of a Gaelic name, a translation, so they don't 'look' similar and are not based on phonetics. So without reading Bell you'd not have a clue to also check the other surname. There are also cases in MacLysaght of individuals choosing new surnames when a single one became so predominant that everyone has the same surname. However if you find an Irish surname (in Gaelic) that is a geographical feature, it is more probable that it derives from an English surname translated into Irish as the Irish didn't take geographical surnames, from what I have read. Of course there are always exceptions. If you determine what the English version of the name is, sometimes you can trace the name to a soldier. Cromwell settled the first standing army in British history: the New Model Army, in Ireland in the 1650s. While many soldiers sold their land to their officers and headed for the West Indies, many settled. As in those days few women were allowed in the army, they were all men. There was one kind of woman available for those who wanted to raise a family: a nice Irish girl. She spoke Erse and was Catholic. Hence most of Cromwell's army assimilated into the Irish nation. Their grandchildren were as green as... Michael Collins. Most could not speaka da English. As having an English surname is embarrassing, it was translated into Irish. >One of the oldest British surnames is Mabon. It is one of my family names ( Scotland) and found in Cornwall, Ulster and southern Scotland. It probably developed from a tribal name as Mabon was likely a pre Christian god. He was indeed. It's interesting to study some of the Welsh texts that date from the late middle ages and compare them to earlier surviving Irish versions of the same stories. The Irish ones are pre Christian. You get a rawer version of the same stories. >The development of surnames in Wales is hereditary, was patronomic and had little initial influence from the English. Welsh geneologies were constructed out of fictiona, mythical,legndary characters to give status. Actually, some say the same is true with the Irish <grin>. Though by the time the ENglish conquored Ulster in the early 1600s the sept system was completely in decline (largely destroyed by the earls -- you can learn about the decline in a history of Medieval Ireland), what you had was intersting from our point of view. The 'newer', aggressive O'Neills, identified as a Milesian clan, had been displacing older, indiginous clans for centuries. That's why the Scotti moved to Scotland in 500 AD ... pressure from newer clans. Apparently the older clans often moved to Scotland. So many Scots descend from the older clans. My mother's KELLYs, a small, very old clan of no consquence, living in a bog in County Down in the late 1500s (Bagenal's spy trip there for Queen Lizzie is printed in Hanna "the Scotch-Irish" and it places Ulster septs on the map for us). We'd been squeezed out by the O'Neills. Apparently, some say, these 'landless clans' often were glad to see the ENglsih arrive as they got a better deal under English law. Many converted to Protestantism (if you can call it a conversion when the only kirk on the block is the only kirk on the block <grin>). It's difficult to prove any of this of course. As we're not scholars, most of us can only report what we've read, written by scholars (some of whom have been debunked by their peers of course). Also some would distinguish between a sept name, which is not a surname and a surname. Apparently in Gelic societies the sept name was never used quite like a Norman style surname, which is what we all now bear. The Normans introduced them to the British Isles the eleventh century. I think that's why some overlook the Irish claim to having the oldest 'surnames' in Europe -- which near as I know, is true. Maybe the Latvians would disagree??? Donno.... Hope whoever does disagree doesn't JOIN the list and start a BIG FIGHT!!!! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

To anyone who read my screed Please excuse terrible spelling not a strong point Gill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gill Smith" <gilliandavies@lineone.net> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:02 AM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Re;Irish Surnames >I read somewhere > > When the day of surnames, imposed by the British Gov, arrived, they > continued, adopting new ones at will. > > Complex stuff surnames and pre-date British Governments > > It would seem that the Irish had some of the earliest surnames, introduced > through their own church and complex naming systems. Many weren't > hereditary and died out within a couple of generations > Surnames tended to describe physical features, locational/settlement and > family/kinship/ tribal links > > An account by Friar Woulfe, an early authority on Irish surnames the > earliest surname was O'Cleirgh - O'Clery. > This is documented in the Irish Annals. The death of Tigherneach Ua > Cleirigh in 916, County Galway is said to make this the earliest recorded > surname in Europe - and obviously- completely out side the time scale of > any English Government imposition > > think of the O'Briens and O'Neils - why you ask? > > Ua is said to be the earlier form of 'O' > As for the lowland Scots - if they are linked to the Picts (difficult > people to study- these Picts) it is thought that the Picts followed a > matrileaner( mothers line) system and if so, presumably any naming > patterns would follow this structure > > One of the oldest British surnames is Mabon. It is one of my family names > ( Scotland) and found in Cornwall, Ulster and southern Scotland. It > probably developed from a tribal name as Mabon was likely a pre Christian > god. > > The development of surnames in Wales is hereditary, was patronomic and had > little initial influence from the English. Welsh geneologies were > constructed out of fictiona, mythical,legndary characters to give status. > > The same can be said for the Irish and Scots as genealogies were very > important for staus and if they had to be made up to make it sound better > why not I say. > > For anyone interested University College Cork > http://www.ucc.ie/research/atlas/projectoverview.htm > > has an Irish Surname Project which includes the influence of the Scots, > Vikings, English et al on namies in Ireland. It uses Penders 1659 Census’ > and Griffiths Valuation and is really interesting if anyone is interested > in Irish surnames > > Cheers > > Gill N.Wales > > >

I read somewhere When the day of surnames, imposed by the British Gov, arrived, they continued, adopting new ones at will. Complex stuff surnames and pre-date British Governments It would seem that the Irish had some of the earliest surnames, introduced through their own church and complex naming systems. Many weren't hereditary and died out within a couple of generations Surnames tended to describe physical features, locational/settlement and family/kinship/ tribal links An account by Friar Woulfe, an early authority on Irish surnames the earliest surname was O'Cleirgh - O'Clery. This is documented in the Irish Annals. The death of Tigherneach Ua Cleirigh in 916, County Galway is said to make this the earliest recorded surname in Europe - and obviously- completely out side the time scale of any English Government imposition think of the O'Briens and O'Neils - why you ask? Ua is said to be the earlier form of 'O' As for the lowland Scots - if they are linked to the Picts (difficult people to study- these Picts) it is thought that the Picts followed a matrileaner( mothers line) system and if so, presumably any naming patterns would follow this structure One of the oldest British surnames is Mabon. It is one of my family names ( Scotland) and found in Cornwall, Ulster and southern Scotland. It probably developed from a tribal name as Mabon was likely a pre Christian god. The development of surnames in Wales is hereditary, was patronomic and had little initial influence from the English. Welsh geneologies were constructed out of fictiona, mythical,legndary characters to give status. The same can be said for the Irish and Scots as genealogies were very important for staus and if they had to be made up to make it sound better why not I say. For anyone interested University College Cork http://www.ucc.ie/research/atlas/projectoverview.htm has an Irish Surname Project which includes the influence of the Scots, Vikings, English et al on namies in Ireland. It uses Penders 1659 Census’ and Griffiths Valuation and is really interesting if anyone is interested in Irish surnames Cheers Gill N.Wales

Interesting site for all Irwins, Erwins,Irvings, Irvines, etc John Erwin http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegalstrongs/irvine.htm

http://bellsouthpwp.net/n/s/nss8660/DNA/DNA.html Objective: to enumerate Abernathy/Abernethy lineages using Y-DNA analysis in conjunction with traditional genealogy research methods. Thanks, David C Abernathy Email disclaimers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message represents the official view of the voices in my head. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.SchmeckAbernathy.com == All outgoing and incoming mail is scanned by Norton AntiVirus 2005 ==

Hello Anne Have you tried looking at any Co Antrim sources there were alot of Whitefords there.... I think.... Just a suggestion that might help Cheers Gill - N Wales ----- Original Message ----- From: "Perplexed" <awhitefo@bigpond.net.au> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel Crossing > Thanks very much for the photo. It graphically illustrates the short > distance. > > My ggg grandfather James Whiteford was born in Ireland (according to the > 1841 and 1851 Scottish Census) on 3 May 1826 and christened in > Campbeltown, Kintrye Scotland on 11 May 1826. He lived in Campbeltown > until he migrated to Melbourne in 1852. I'd love to know where he came > from in Ireland but that may remain one of my family history mysteries. > > I understood from listers to the Argyll board that there was regular > travel between Kintyre and Ireland, especially from Antrim. But the photo > really show how this was possible in a way that explanations don't. > > Thanks > > Anne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Thompson" <wmthompson@btinternet.com> > To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 9:57 AM > Subject: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel Crossing > > >> To pick up on Edward's point, the sea crossing is very short. I live near >> one of the wee harbours he refers to, and I know local people who jetski >> across to Scotland. A local guy has a RIB boat and he can get from >> Ballywalter harbour in Ulster to Portpatrick harbour in Scotland in 25 >> minutes! (lots of fuel and horse power!) >> >> If you have a look at this link you can see a photo I took up near Torr >> Head in County Antrim this summer. The Mull of Kintyre is amazingly >> close. >> >> http://www.lowcountryboys.com/hismap6.html >> >> >> Regards, >> Mark >> > >

Hello Ludie - 'tis me again In reply to your question about limestone Limestone rocks are sedimentary( pieces of the earth worn away and deposited on top of each other to form layers- they eventually form rocks) rocks that are made from the mineral calcite which came from the beds of evaporated seas , rivers and lakes and from sea animal shells. This rock is used in concrete production and is an excellent building stone for humid regions. Limestone is used in architectural construction, but apparently not good for tall buildings because of the cost?. Alot of buildings in London are built from Portland Limestone It doesn't stand up well to acid rain The Vale of Clwyd - here in Wales has alot of limestone - it is a glacial valley and you can see lots of little and quite large fossils of marine creatures in the stone. I wonder what our ancestors made of the shapes in the limestone. Some limestone with fossils is used in pre-historic burials as it probaly had a 'magic' attached to it The Burren in Co Clare, Ireland is one of the most famous, composed of karstic limestone - bhoireann stoney place - it has a wealth of archaeology, flora on it's (approx) 300 sq. kilometres and is an archaeologist, botanists and ecologists dream. Texas it seems is richly endowed with centuries old limestone buildings but I don't know anything about these! Hope this helps as my geology is a bit rusty Gill in a warmer Wales

Hello William, If you haven't been there already then www.reivers.com is a great site to visit. I've noticed a couple of people putting OrdInance Survey. It is Ordnance Survey. It has nothing to do with laws (ordinance) but with weapons (ordnance). The mapping of the UK and the first census in 1801 were about defending the country against Napoleon. Until then it was guesswork about how many people lived in the UK and the maps were often estimates too but defence needed accuracy. In discussing transport of the time a point to remember is that before the railways came in the 1830s there was no accurate timekeeping in the UK. 9am in London in winter was gloomy but in Edinburgh it was still dark so people got up later. Railways needed accurate timetables not body clocks so railway time, which was the same across the UK, was introduced. Rob Doragh Liverpool UK >From: "William Pease" <william.pease@verizon.net> >Reply-To: <william.pease@verizon.net> >To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [Sc-Ir] Xmas reading and my Beatties >Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 13:11:13 -0500 > >Thanks, Brian, for the excellent reading list. There are at >least three books on your list (Cromie, Perceval-Maxwell, & >Robinson) that I must read immediately. I'm trying to >understand and trace my mother's Beattie family from the >Scottish lowlands and borderlands to Ulster, probably in the >early 17th century (just conjecture), thence to Newbliss in >County Monaghan where I found record of them in 1830 and >from where they emigrated to Quebec, Canada, in 1838, then >to the United States in 1870. Were they Reivers when they >were in Scotland and possibly expelled to Ulster? Gosh, I >hope so because that will spice up the family history, won't >it? > >I'm fortunate to live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA, which >has both a private college (Franklin and Marshall College, >what could be more American?) and a public university >(Millersville University of Pennsylvania), and both of them >have fine libraries. I worked in the first and my wife >worked in the second, both as librarians. Now we can access >their library catalogs online: ain't this technology stuff >grand? > >Thanks for your fine booklist. >

Puffers are steam lighters. They were pretty well ubiquitous steam lighters which traded not only in the Scottish Islands but also to Ireland, especially the smaller harbours. The definitive thing about the puffers was their size. Less than (I think) 66 feet long so that they could pass through the Crinan Canal. Due to the Para Handy stories Puffers are much loved, but nearly extinct in Scotland. The sailing predecessor was a Gabbot. Under the Basalt which makes up the Antrim Plateau is Chalk. This is a form of Limestone and has a number of industrial uses. Unfortunately the Industries which used it have now mainly shut down. Someone was asking of there was red dust over the Antrim Plateau. Well no. The Antrim Plateau where the Iron is worked is a bog. However at the oxide ponds in Larne where the oar was dumped there use to be a lot of dust blown about. However in the 45 years since I lived in Larne things have been cleaned up and a dual carriage way road runs over the ponds. I think that you have a slightly distorted view of how people travelled. The very poor people would have hitched a lift on a cargo or fishing boat. To own your own boat meant real wealth. While we tell stories about people crossing the ditch - and people have swum it. People regularly rowed it to get the Church, I once had a hugely scary three days stick in the middle of the Firth of Clyde in a gale in a Yacht, while in 1953 the Stranrear Larne Ferry the Princess Victoria foundered in a gale with the loss of about 130 passengers. Edward Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Loudene Tollar [mailto:ludiekt@juno.com] Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:59 PM To: Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel crossing I apparently created some confusion by mentioning my Kirks after asking the question. I was primarily just curious about the viability of travel between Scotland and Ireland at the place of shortest distance. Outside of the obvious sparsely settled area of Scotland I wondered if there was bad currents, etc that might have prevented it. Especially for small boats that presumably the average poor people would have had to use. And the knowledge that many people traveled to and from the two countries at will. A family history stated that our ancestor Kirk was born in Scotland and he is found in County Antrim, Ireland probably at least as early as 1750. I didn't mean to imply that I was thinking that route was how he came to be in Ireland though it could have been. I just wanted to have some knowledge of the area. And speaking of. What do you mean by the puffers (the steam ships?)? And what is the Limestone? I don't want to paint with a broad stroke when I say not many today in Texas (let's not even mention other southern states) that have much knowledge about Texas history much less early US history and even less about Ireland, Scotland and England. We're kind of late getting into it. So what may seem common information to many is Greek to me. And I do appreciate it. Ludie

Ludie, They say that even back then it took as little as three hours. No problem at all on a clear day. And of course, the first large scale settlement - the Hamilton & Montgomery Settlement of 1606 - started in May of that year, so the settlers had the wisdom to wait until late spring / early summer before coming across! It can be choppy in winter (right now it's just past midnight on Friday, pitch black outside and calm, but sometimes the storms are breathtaking, even across only 20miles of open sea the wind can really get going!) ------------- This quote is from "The Montgomery Manuscripts": "...They soon made cottages and booths for themselves, because sods and saplins of ashes, alders, and birch trees (above 30 years old) with rushes for thatch, and bushes for wattles, were at hand. 45 And also they made a shelter of the said stump of the castle for Sir Hugh, whose residence was mostlie there, as in the centre of being supplied with necessaries from Belfast (but six miles thence), who therefore came and set up a market in Newtown, for profit for both the towns. As likewise in the fair summer season (twice, sometimes thrice every week) they were supplied from Scotland, as Donaghadee was oftener, because but three hours sail from Portpatrick, where they bespoke provisions and necessaries to lade in, to be brought over by their own or that town's boats whenever wind and weather served them, for there was a constant flux of passengers coming daily over. I have heard honest old men say that in June, July, and August, 1607, people came from Stanraer, four miles, and left their horses at the port, hired horses at Donaghadee, came with their wares and provisions to Newton, and sold them, dined there, staid two or three hours, and returned to their houses the same day by bed-time," ------------- People often forget that the Hamilton & Montgomery Settlement of 1606 was focussed on Down and Antrim and was largely a freelance project. It took place 4 years before the Plantation of Ulster in 1610, which didnt need to include Antrim and Down thanks to the effectiveness of the Hamilton & Montgomery project. Its 400th Anniversary is next year, and plans are underway to mark this in a high profile manner. Regards, Mark

What a lovely picture - want to be there!! I've looked many times from the other direction too- wonderful isn't it? I'm researching Thompsons from Co. Down -do you have any Warrenpoint links in your family tree? Thank You for that Gill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Thompson" <wmthompson@btinternet.com> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:57 PM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Irish Sea Channel Crossing > To pick up on Edward's point, the sea crossing is very short. I live near > one of the wee harbours he refers to, and I know local people who jetski > across to Scotland. A local guy has a RIB boat and he can get from > Ballywalter harbour in Ulster to Portpatrick harbour in Scotland in 25 > minutes! (lots of fuel and horse power!) > > If you have a look at this link you can see a photo I took up near Torr > Head in County Antrim this summer. The Mull of Kintyre is amazingly close. > > http://www.lowcountryboys.com/hismap6.html > > > Regards, > Mark > >

To pick up on Edward's point, the sea crossing is very short. I live near one of the wee harbours he refers to, and I know local people who jetski across to Scotland. A local guy has a RIB boat and he can get from Ballywalter harbour in Ulster to Portpatrick harbour in Scotland in 25 minutes! (lots of fuel and horse power!) If you have a look at this link you can see a photo I took up near Torr Head in County Antrim this summer. The Mull of Kintyre is amazingly close. http://www.lowcountryboys.com/hismap6.html Regards, Mark

I read this with interest as I am desended from the Reiver families of Bell, Elliots and Johnstones - my own line stayed firmly in place in Scotland and farmed around the Canonbie and Dalton areas - the farms are still there. I read the linked articles with interest I'm amused at the Neolithic Celts - I'm pre-historic archaeologist/ history person and have never heard of a Neolithic(c4500BC -2000BC in Scotland) Celt( no evidence for Celts in most of UK but the Iron Age spanned from around 550BC to c 400AD in non Romanised areas of Scotland) who ever wrote the article is a bit archaeologically/historically dazed and confused! Cheers Gill North Wales ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Merle" <merle@mail.fea.net> To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 8:55 PM Subject: [Sc-Ir] Border Clan DNA Project > Hi folks, > > Here's the URL to that DNA project I mentioned: > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/elliott_border_reivers_dna.htm > > > It says here: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/elliott_border_reivers_dna.htm#Question5 > > "What happened to them and where are they now? The era of the Border > Reivers ended abruptly when Elizabeth I died and James I was crowned King > of England. The Elliotts had often served as mercenaries to Elizabeth, and > had harried James's mother, Mary Queen of Scots, on her behalf. > Consequently, they feared and resented the Stuart king. In defiance of the > new regime, a large party of Elliotts, Armstrongs and Grahams rode into > Cumbria, and stole 3,000 sheep. This last hurrah of mayhem took place in > 1603, and has been remembered ever since as "Ill Week". Later, more than a > hundred of the perpetrators were apprehended, and many were hanged. Many > others fled with their families to the Ulster Plantation of Northern > Ireland, where they served as a buffer between the Gaelic Irish and their > English overlords. The Border Reivers thereafter became the core of that > fiercely self-reliant people known to history as the Scotch-Irish." > > The page includes a bio of the author's grandfather, an > ELLIOTT from Donegal. > > It's likely that border-folk descend from: > > --Various tribes of Picts, Scots, and Germans > --Roman soldiers garrisoned at Hadrian's Wall > --Asiatic horsemen settled in Lancaster by the Romans along with their > horses > --and the Plantagenets (marched their armies through our area > to fight with the Scots)! > > Linda Merle > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > > > > >