Hi Lyndall, There are additional details of this settlement in the archives as I did some research there a couple years ago and posted what I had learned. Some of the early people came from County Down. (www.rootsweb.com, scrolll down to "Mail lists", select Interactive search, type in Scotch-Irish, and search away). They formed a conservative Presbyterian congregation that attracted others from County Down. The preponderance of Down surnames is obvious to those who know Down surnames but in addition we have their word that they came from County Down. This includes the Witherspoons, Friersons, and Bradleys. IN the years leading up to the Revolution, new arrivals were of a more liberal persuasion, which lead to problems in the church and a schism. As for Virginia land records on the web, you need to go to the Library of Virginia's website. It has a massive number of scanned records. As for whether they got any from your specific area, you'll have to research that yourself. Often records are not organized by counties that didn't exist in 1735 but in other parcels like the Granville one. You need to read up on the history of the area to find them. To find the Library of VA site, type in www.google.com and then Library of Virginia. (I got the URL saved with about 300,000 others so I do this too). Then go to www.usgenwebcom and cycle down to the Virginia county you want. Most likely there is SOME kind of history on line. If not you will need to go to a library. This area is confusing due to changing jurisdictions (but then so's everywhere else <grin>!!). There are a LOT of colonial Virginia resources on line at www.ancestry.com and www.genealogy.com. Genealogy.com fried a massive number of the 'standard' works onto a number of CDs a few years ago. These are KEY works to search unless you are planning to live to be 1000. It'll take yo that long to find all these sources if you don't use the published versions to 'find' what you want. For example a book with all the pre 1800 Virginia marriages. Doesn't have them ALL but has dang most of them and a great way to find out where the family lived before or where children strayed. You can find these CDs at many libraries -- more than can afford to buy all the books you need to do a thorough search. Or buy yourself a membership to the on line databases. Very best of luck! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Thank you very much, Marilyn. Since you are interested in Monreagh church, you, and other Listers, may be interested in the following: http://www.ulster.ac.uk/news/releases/2005/1948.html I have emailed the university asking if they also intend to commemorate The Reverend William Boyd, bearing in mind that he organised The Five Ships emigration of several hundred Presbyterians from the Bann Valley to Boston in 1718, the first mass emigration of Presbyterians to America. Regards, Boyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn" <berkeley@velocitus.net> To: "Boyd Gray" <boydgray26@utvinternet.com> Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2005 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [DONEGALEIRE] My Shaw Ancestry - Monreagh > Regarding the Rev. William Boyd: > > p. 13 > The Rev. William Cornwall 1721-1724. > > "He was followed by the Rev. William Boyd of Macosquin, installed on 25th > April 1725 and intense strife took place between the congregation and the > new erection at St. Johnston. the Synod were often forced to intervene. > the Taboin affair as it was called in the records of the Synod of Ulster, > was up at every meeting of the court for many years and finally agreed that > any member who left Monreagh and joined with St. Johnston were to pay up all > arrears of stipend due to the Rev. Boyd, and that no person now belonging to > the Rev. Boyd's congregation shall have liberty to join with St. Johnston, > and if any of the Rev. Boyd's people shall remove from their present farms > and other of our communion come in to enjoy their possessions, shall be > obliged to pay full stipend to the Rev. Boyd. 1733, the Rev. Boyd and his > congregation were put under the care of Letterkenny Presbytery. 1734 the > walls of the Church were raised and the galleries were erected. He > continued as pastor of this congregation for forty seven years." > > Rev. William boyd 1725 - 1772. He died on the 2nd day of May 1772, aged 87 > years. His tomb may be seen at the West End of the Episcopal Church of > Taughboyne: > Here lyeth the body of the late > Rev. Mr. William Boyd, > who departed this life > Mary 2nd 1772 aged 87. > He had been Presbyterian Minister > in Taughboyne 47 years. > Here also lyeth the body of > his wife who died June 21st > 1761 aged 68. > > This is all the mention of the Rev. Boyd that I could find. And the name of > his wife wasn't mentioned. > > Marilyn >

I have updated the Births on the Banbridge section of my website, wishing everyone a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Raymond http://www.raymondscountydownwebsite.com

Hello David, I've found www.surnamenavigator.org is useful for unusual surnames. Clabby is a surname that crops up in Ireland as you'll find if you use the navigator. Clabo is French, it seems, but similar sounding names seem to crop up in Tennessee. Rob Doragh Liverpool UK <dodger@sealost.com> Subject: mccampbell, mccarter, ferguson, clabough Date: Mon 19 Dec 2005 in my lineage surnames McCarter, McCampbell (and Campbell), Ferguson. also interested connection to scotch-irish roots for surname Clabough (mine). Most people tell me name is German, but no proof. My family tradition for 200 years claim that we came from Ireland in early C18th. name been spelled Clabough, Clabaugh, Cleaughbeaugh, Cleabough, Clanbough, Clabach, Clebach, Clabhach, Clapbough, Clabo, may be related to Clabau, Clerbeaux, Clabeaux, Clabault, Clabot, Clabaud lines. David

Hello, I am fairly new to the genealogy hunt. I recently subscribed to the scotch-irish list and have enjoyed it very much. I have in my lineage the surnames McCarter, McCampbell (and Campbell), and Ferguson. Any info on these would be great, if anyone is interested in sharing. I am also interested if anyone has ever found a connection to scotch-irish roots for the surname Clabough (mine). Most people I have talked to tell me the name is German, but they have no proof. My family tradition handed down for 200 years claim that we came from Ireland in the early 18th century. Big contradiction there. The name has been spelled Clabough, Clabaugh, Cleaughbeaugh, Cleabough, Clanbough, Clabach, Clebach, Clabhach, Clapbough, Clabo, and may or may not be related to the Clabau, Clerbeaux, Clabeaux, Clabault, Clabot, Clabaud lines. Has anyone ever encountered this in the Scotland - Ireland world? thanks, David

Here's what Bell "Book of Ulster Surnames" says: for MacIlveen, see MacIlwaine. It includes MacElwain and MacIlveen. Bell says these names are common in Ulster, almost exclusively in Ireland. They are most common in Down and ANtrim though MacIlwaine is also common in Armagh. They can be Irish or Scottish in origin. [I interject as usual.....this ain't surprising. What we tend to view as two countries on two islands with some kind of armada permanantly parked in the ditch between to keep people going back and forth to confuse us with their surnames was actually the right and left sides of the Mississippi (for Americans). Ie the ditch was a super highway, people went back and forth all the time and there wasn't a lot of difference between side A and side B. In fact it was known as the sea kingdom for a long time. Infested (from the point of view of London and Edinburgh) by Gaelic speaking hostiles. The leading families of the Scottish side were often founded by branches of leading Irish families. When renewing links with dynastic marriages, the brides often brought many Scots warriors with them. IN one case in the 1500s, 10,000 large, heavily armed and Gaelic speaking men and horny men in the prime of their ability to procreate went to Ireland with the bride. So, alas!!! since they spoke the same language they all ended up with the same 'surnames', when the ENglish finally imposed them. Also many Scottish highlanders (Gaelic speaking and Catholic) had settled in the glens of Antrim in the 1500s. That's how we got all those Mc names and how come you can't easily distinguish between the Scots and Irish by the Mc name.] Bell again... he sticks to the facts and tells us the the Irish name MacIlwaine or MacElwain is from a Gaelic name meaning son of the white youth. A Sligo sept. There the name became Kilbane but in Ulster MacIlwaine. MacElveen, MacIlveen and MacKilveen are Irish Gaelic for another sept in south Down maning son of the gentle or mild youth. SO we got two Irish septs in the environs in Ulster.... But 'most' he tells us of the Ulster MacElwains etc are thought to be Scots in origin due to the same set of names being associated with a sept of Clan MacBean. These originated as 'son of the devotee of (St) Beathan. However McIlvain can also be from Scots Gaelic meaning 'son of the fair youth or servant, a name 'largely anglicized' to White. These names are common in Dumfriesshire, Ayrshire, Wigtownshire -- from whence, he tells us, come many Plantation settlers. It's also possible that an lowlander named White could have settled in Ulster amongst Gaelic speakers (Scots or IRish) who gaelicized the name to some form of 'fair' or 'white' or the son thereof, meaning, full circle, we're back with the MacElwains. Thank heavens for DNA as we can finally start to figure out who is really related to who. Anyhow if you can get a bead on where in Ulster or Scotland they came from, you can burrow into local history (much is recorded in Bell "Boook of Ulster SUrnames") and learn where people think that the local McElw...s came from. However the surname itself is of no help in figuring out where they came from except probably the shores of the medieval sea kingdom -- Side A or Side B. It's always possible our ancestors went to London at any time and set up a little shop selling haggis to other lost Scots or tattie pancakes to lost Irish, lived there for a while and finally moved on again. Maybe to the West Indies where they had a plantation or worked on one and then moved to Virginia in 1750. There was no guard at the Thames river to turn them back. To figure it out we need to gather evidence at where-ever it is they finally went. You may not find a 'smoking gun' (ie the county of origin carved on the tombstone of the immigrant) but you can often gather subtle evidence if you do a thorough job of researching them here.....where ever here is. You can get a lot of ideas on how to research migrants free at www.genealogy.com/university.html . I do this professionally and still visit the courses regularly and still get more insight I missed the first 150 times I read it. I think it's better than a book I had to buy. Happy hunting!! Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hello Louise, It's difficult to find 17th century and earlier references for Ulster on line. Try www.proni.gov.uk If you click on the Freeholders' Records you will get 1 hit for McElwain, 0 for McElwaine, 23 for McIlwain and 13 for McIlwaine throughout Ulster. www.ulsterancestry.com may have something for you in their free pages. Otherwise I'd suggest looking at county websites and their mailing lists. I can give you some of those if you think it will help. Rob Doragh Liverpool UK louise harrison <louharr@hotmail.com> Subject: McElwain Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 searching for McElwain family in Ulster from 1697 to 1790.

I would also recommend being imaginative with respect to spelling. For example, I have a couple of McILVEENs in the late 1600s. Who knows. Sharon Oddie Brown Roberts Creek, BC, Canada THE SILVER BOWL: http://www.user.dccnet.com/s.brown/index.html FAMILY TREE: http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=silverbowl

I am searching for the McElwain family in Ulster from 1697 to 1790. Can you help me? Louise Harrison.

Hello, Linda Thank you very much for all your excellent advice. Although I have been interested in genealogy for a number of years I have focused my efforts primarily on a single surname which is PRESLEY (and its variants.) For a lot of years the only time I turned my attention toward my mother's family ancestry from Scotland was when the Presley obligations were too tedious, too overwhelming, or too frustrating. Even then I wouldn't spend more than a week at a time looking at these Scots. You have provided me (and anyone reading) a very excellent beginner's tutorial for researching in the British Isles and I am very grateful for the generosity of your time in putting your mail together. I have taken your advice. I located the two volumes of the Falley book and ordered them off Bookfinder.com (http://bookfinder.com). That will be my husband's Hogmanay gift to me (although he doesn't know it yet...) :-) There are still a number of copies available if anyone else is interested. My mother was a serious student of UK history. I used to love to listen to the stories she told about British history with a fictional spin for the benefit of us kids. Later as an adult she would put a geo-political spin to it and set the questions in my mind to flying. At least I have a basic understanding of the history of the place. I can thank her for that. My grandparents had a bit of a different idea about the Scots and Scottish history. They fervently believed that, but for the cleverness and persistence of the Scots, our entire planet would have imploded long ago. :-) Thank you, Linda. I am off work for two weeks starting Tuesday. I intend to print your mail out and use it as my guide as I start looking for these Greigs, Marshalls, and Muirs in and around Scotland. I don't expect it will be easy. I would be grateful for any input from anyone. Merry Christmas to all Nancy Pressley The Presley-Pressley Family History Site http://presley-pressley.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Merle" <merle@mail.fea.net> To: "Nancy Pressley" <ncpressley@mindspring.com> Cc: <Scotch-Irish-l@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [Sc-Ir] GREIG, HUGHES, MARSHALL, MUIR, SMELLIE > Hi Nancy, it is a very common experience to find Irish ancestors when > researchin English and Scots (and vice versa). That is because they are > close to one another and there are no walls. People go to and fro all the > time. If you've been around on this list then you've read plenty of posts > regarding the rapidity with which Irish assimilate into Scottish people > (See the front essay of Black "Surnames of Scotland if you are new). > > It's often very very very difficult to trace people accurately (it's not > so hard to make mistakes by assuming an earlier record with the same name > is the same individual) due to inadequate records. Once one is before > civil registration in Scotland (1855) you cannot rely on just a similar > name in OPR records. Sometimes you can get additional information by > consulting the actual parish records that may even indicate that a family > is from Ireland. The Scottish Catholic records are not easily available > so we will not see them if they were Catholic. It is true they were > supposed to be registered in the parish but that doesn't mean that they > were. > > Protestant Scottish families often went to Ireland for work as > well as Irish coming to Scotland. Your surnames are very Scottish and > suggest the family was Scots and went to Ireland. Was this in 1606 or > later on? Maybe they went back and forth every generation for 150 years. > If they did y ou will have a very difficult time proving that they did or > they did not as the records in Ireland are VERY bad. Irish civil > registration began even later than Scottish. Ireland has far fewer > surviving church records and they are not easy to search, unlike Scottish > church records, that are indexed in IGI. That is not so for Irish. > > What you need to do is do a very very very thorough job of Scottish > genealogy. You need to read a couple books on Scottish genealogy to be > sure you are doing a thorough job. I rarely talk to anyone who doesn't > htink they already did a thorough job <grin>. I have myself done a half > assed job so far on my family because to do a good job takes eons of time. > But ev erytime I read a new or reread an older genealogy book I see things > I hadn't thought of before, partially because I know new things. What > you are looking for is CLUES. You are looking for the names of people in > baptismal records and where they are from. If you find ONE who is 'of > Ballybumpit, Ireland", chances are yours know others in the town. You are > looking for the names of landlords and estates as well as (key) > OCCUPATION. THis is how you destinquish between 600 Robert Hughes and > 250 Robert Muirs, etc (I got MUIRs in East Lothian, BTW). > > Then you analyze what you got by way of clues. You then > study Irish genealogy. You are looking for the types of records that exist > where you can follow up on those clues. Y ou can also 'run them' through > various indexes like the ones at > Ulster Ancestry, etc. But chances are you will get nothing > since your names are too common. Keep that list handy, though. > Since the indexes to Irish civil registration are readily available on > film, check them for any marriages. You can get these indexes at LDS. > > "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" by Falley is the best book on > Irish genealogy though you may find others easier to get into. The trouble > you and the rest of us here have is that most Irish genealogical > methodologies target the majority of Irish: Catholics and also the 19th > century. Due to the sparcity of church records, especially Catholic and > dissent Protestant, before about 1820, most don't even try to 'go there'. > THey are told you cannot trace people in pre 1820 Ireland unless of course > they were nobility. > > If you haven't heard this before it means you need to do some buffing up > on Irish genealogy to learn the basics. Then you will need to figure out > on your own or with the little help there is, how to do research in the > time when most believe it is impossible. > > It is possible, it is just hard work, and you need a lot of luck. > > Without knowing the social status of your people it's impossible to guage > how hard/easy your search will be. As the records we utilize in the 1800s > (first complete Irish census is 1901) are largely land records, if your > ancestors were servants it is not likely you can find them unles syou can > locate the estate or household they served in and records for that survive > that name them. Many families took their records to England > or Scotland when the great estates were divided up so they can be > anywhere. www.proni.gov.uk has histories of many Ulster estates and > describes PRONIs collection of Ulster estate records. > > If they were small tenant farmers it is very difficult to trace them. If > they were trades people: blacksmiths, haberdashers, etc, then it's easier. > If they were in the military you can research them in military British > military records. Much depends on their social class. it is usually > impossible for someone living today to determine the social class unless > they've done a little reading. You may erroneously think the person was of > a low social class when he was not. You will not think to check > apprenticeship records because you don't understand the occupation was > taught by apprenticeship and you don't know about tax records that survive > in London from the early 1700s. You may go to Dublin when you should got > to Belfast but all the time the records you want are in London. > > If they were gardeners on the estate of a Scotsman who also > had an Irish estate -- you will find your man on the family's > Irish estate. The same goes if they were the coachman or > maybe even the house servant. It pays to know who they worked > for. Even if they worked in a factory as say a pipe fitter, > then you know they came from an industrialized part of > Ireland: Londonderry or Belfast. You don't learn pipe fitting > hoeing taters. > > The area of Scotland they live in is important too. Knowing it enables you > to research that parish to see if its population grew during the 1800s > period of industrialization. You can check back into 1841 to see if the > sur names are in the parish in earlier days. Sometimes you can find local > history identifying early surnames of inhabitants. > > Western Scotland (Lanarkshire), alas, is so near Ireland that most things > in it are Irish eventually. Cancel the Atlantic City weekend and use the > online Scottish websites to view the Civil Registration indexes for dead > John MUIRs in Lanarkshire. > You may need to narrow down to the parish. I'd look for a marriage first > if you haven't found it. If it occured after 1855 it'll tell you his > parents' names. You may have to vew > a number of scans to find a dead John whose widow was Jean Marshall, but > if he died in Shotts, maybe not. You at least got > a window of time. > > Check the birth records of any children you can find in Scotland. What I > found in one case was that the mother of the > wife came over from Ireland at the birth of the first child. > She is listed on the birth certificate as a witness but is > not in the census and she didn't die in Scotland. She died > in Ireland. So if the mother lived in Ireland we surmised that > the family had just come over. Sure enough there were no > earlier birth records for these folk in Scotland. However > everyone around them had Innishowen names including the priest > who married them (they were Catholic but we got the name > of the priest from the birth certificate). So chances are > dang good that if one had the stomach to search the most > common names in Innishowen for a marriage you could find > 20 <grin>...okay scratch that ! It probalby will take DNA > studies to narrow down my client's folk due to the commonest > set of surnames in all of innishowen. God bless them. But > at least we know where to visit on our next trip to Ireland > and when he's there and says "my ancestors were named >>>", > everyone will love him. > >>Ann Marshall MUIR, married Robert GREIG in 1882 In Holytown, Lanark., >>Scotland. Robert Greig was born about 1854, Ireland, the son of Robert >>Greig and Jane HUGHES. > > I'd doubt check the 1855 Scottish civil registration for him. > If the birth was registered in 1855 then addtional info beyond > the usual stuff was collected that year. IT COULD TELL YOU > WHERE THEY CAME FROM. I learned this reading books on Scottish > genealogy and listening in lectures at the British Isles Family > History Society USA....probably the latter! (They are better > than all the books put together). > >>I'd like to know if anyone recognizes any of these individuals either in >>Ireland or Scotland. The common given names and surnames make research >>difficult. > > That's not enough to id individuals. You need an addition piece of info. A > parish (a county in Scotland or Ireland is not enough). Either "Applied > Genealogy" or "The Conceptual > Approach to Genealogy" describe how to ID an individual. In > one case in colonial America I found the specific locale VERY > useful. Largely using land records we could distinguish between > individuals with the same first/last names (who lived on different river > branches). When one relocated to a new colony, > we could still trace him because he sold the land. Other > things you need are the occupation. In Scottish parish records > you can get the name of the village they lived in. The key > thing is watch the preposition. "IN" means they lived there, > renting. "OF" means they were the gentile family whose seat the place was. > You can find the same first/last names: one guy > "IN" and one "OF". Only way to separate them is the parish > records, not the oPR indexes. > > The surname MARSHALL was brought to Ireland in medieval times > by the Normans -- a famous Marcher lord with five daughters. > IN any case they continued on (one branch). I know as I > have MARSHALLs in Tyrone -- as yet, lost!! Landlord types, > left in 1821. I can tell you the middle men on the Calydon > estate were Marshalls. H aven't traced mine back yet. He > died young before anyone got interested in his family roots. > > People in Scotland rapidly forgot their "Irish" roots. IN > the case of Ulster Scots, there wasn't much difference > as culturally they were often the same. IN the case of > Catholic Irish, they assimilated into Protestant Scotland > and were no more interested in telling others about their > roots than some individuals of mixed ancestry wish to tell > about their African heritage (until recently). Black "Surnames > of Scotland" has some examples of su rname assimilation in > Galloway. > > Linda Merle > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net > > > >

Holiday Greetings! I have recently added additional information to my website at: <www.houseofalexander.com> Sarah

Hello, My great-grandmother was Ann Marshall MUIR, b1858 Ireland. Her parents were John MUIR and Jean MARSHALL. Jean Marshall (b. 1821, Bellshill, Glasgow) was the daughter of David MARSHALL and Jean SMELLIE who were married 1814 in Shotts, Lanarkshire, Scotland I don't know anything about Jean Marshall's husband, John Muir, except that he was dead by the 1881 Scotland census, and that his name appears on his widow's mourning card in 1915. Ann Marshall MUIR, married Robert GREIG in 1882 In Holytown, Lanark., Scotland. Robert Greig was born about 1854, Ireland, the son of Robert Greig and Jane HUGHES. I'd like to know if anyone recognizes any of these individuals either in Ireland or Scotland. The common given names and surnames make research difficult. When I interviewed my grandmother and her children about their family history I didn't hear any mention that her family had ever been in Ireland or had ancestors in Ireland though both her parents, Ann Muir and Robert Greig, were born there. I assumed they were born in Scotland until I researched the census records in the UK. It would appear that their stay in Ireland was brief based on census and BMD records. Please contact me if you can know anything about these families. Thanks, Nancy Pressley ncpressley@mindspring.com The Presley Y-DNA Project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/presley%2Dpressley/

Hi Nancy, it is a very common experience to find Irish ancestors when researchin English and Scots (and vice versa). That is because they are close to one another and there are no walls. People go to and fro all the time. If you've been around on this list then you've read plenty of posts regarding the rapidity with which Irish assimilate into Scottish people (See the front essay of Black "Surnames of Scotland if you are new). It's often very very very difficult to trace people accurately (it's not so hard to make mistakes by assuming an earlier record with the same name is the same individual) due to inadequate records. Once one is before civil registration in Scotland (1855) you cannot rely on just a similar name in OPR records. Sometimes you can get additional information by consulting the actual parish records that may even indicate that a family is from Ireland. The Scottish Catholic records are not easily available so we will not see them if they were Catholic. It is true they were supposed to be registered in the parish but that doesn't mean that they were. Protestant Scottish families often went to Ireland for work as well as Irish coming to Scotland. Your surnames are very Scottish and suggest the family was Scots and went to Ireland. Was this in 1606 or later on? Maybe they went back and forth every generation for 150 years. If they did y ou will have a very difficult time proving that they did or they did not as the records in Ireland are VERY bad. Irish civil registration began even later than Scottish. Ireland has far fewer surviving church records and they are not easy to search, unlike Scottish church records, that are indexed in IGI. That is not so for Irish. What you need to do is do a very very very thorough job of Scottish genealogy. You need to read a couple books on Scottish genealogy to be sure you are doing a thorough job. I rarely talk to anyone who doesn't htink they already did a thorough job <grin>. I have myself done a half assed job so far on my family because to do a good job takes eons of time. But ev erytime I read a new or reread an older genealogy book I see things I hadn't thought of before, partially because I know new things. What you are looking for is CLUES. You are looking for the names of people in baptismal records and where they are from. If you find ONE who is 'of Ballybumpit, Ireland", chances are yours know others in the town. You are looking for the names of landlords and estates as well as (key) OCCUPATION. THis is how you destinquish between 600 Robert Hughes and 250 Robert Muirs, etc (I got MUIRs in East Lothian, BTW). Then you analyze what you got by way of clues. You then study Irish genealogy. You are looking for the types of records that exist where you can follow up on those clues. Y ou can also 'run them' through various indexes like the ones at Ulster Ancestry, etc. But chances are you will get nothing since your names are too common. Keep that list handy, though. Since the indexes to Irish civil registration are readily available on film, check them for any marriages. You can get these indexes at LDS. "Irish and Scotch-Irish Ancestral Research" by Falley is the best book on Irish genealogy though you may find others easier to get into. The trouble you and the rest of us here have is that most Irish genealogical methodologies target the majority of Irish: Catholics and also the 19th century. Due to the sparcity of church records, especially Catholic and dissent Protestant, before about 1820, most don't even try to 'go there'. THey are told you cannot trace people in pre 1820 Ireland unless of course they were nobility. If you haven't heard this before it means you need to do some buffing up on Irish genealogy to learn the basics. Then you will need to figure out on your own or with the little help there is, how to do research in the time when most believe it is impossible. It is possible, it is just hard work, and you need a lot of luck. Without knowing the social status of your people it's impossible to guage how hard/easy your search will be. As the records we utilize in the 1800s (first complete Irish census is 1901) are largely land records, if your ancestors were servants it is not likely you can find them unles syou can locate the estate or household they served in and records for that survive that name them. Many families took their records to England or Scotland when the great estates were divided up so they can be anywhere. www.proni.gov.uk has histories of many Ulster estates and describes PRONIs collection of Ulster estate records. If they were small tenant farmers it is very difficult to trace them. If they were trades people: blacksmiths, haberdashers, etc, then it's easier. If they were in the military you can research them in military British military records. Much depends on their social class. it is usually impossible for someone living today to determine the social class unless they've done a little reading. You may erroneously think the person was of a low social class when he was not. You will not think to check apprenticeship records because you don't understand the occupation was taught by apprenticeship and you don't know about tax records that survive in London from the early 1700s. You may go to Dublin when you should got to Belfast but all the time the records you want are in London. If they were gardeners on the estate of a Scotsman who also had an Irish estate -- you will find your man on the family's Irish estate. The same goes if they were the coachman or maybe even the house servant. It pays to know who they worked for. Even if they worked in a factory as say a pipe fitter, then you know they came from an industrialized part of Ireland: Londonderry or Belfast. You don't learn pipe fitting hoeing taters. The area of Scotland they live in is important too. Knowing it enables you to research that parish to see if its population grew during the 1800s period of industrialization. You can check back into 1841 to see if the sur names are in the parish in earlier days. Sometimes you can find local history identifying early surnames of inhabitants. Western Scotland (Lanarkshire), alas, is so near Ireland that most things in it are Irish eventually. Cancel the Atlantic City weekend and use the online Scottish websites to view the Civil Registration indexes for dead John MUIRs in Lanarkshire. You may need to narrow down to the parish. I'd look for a marriage first if you haven't found it. If it occured after 1855 it'll tell you his parents' names. You may have to vew a number of scans to find a dead John whose widow was Jean Marshall, but if he died in Shotts, maybe not. You at least got a window of time. Check the birth records of any children you can find in Scotland. What I found in one case was that the mother of the wife came over from Ireland at the birth of the first child. She is listed on the birth certificate as a witness but is not in the census and she didn't die in Scotland. She died in Ireland. So if the mother lived in Ireland we surmised that the family had just come over. Sure enough there were no earlier birth records for these folk in Scotland. However everyone around them had Innishowen names including the priest who married them (they were Catholic but we got the name of the priest from the birth certificate). So chances are dang good that if one had the stomach to search the most common names in Innishowen for a marriage you could find 20 <grin>...okay scratch that ! It probalby will take DNA studies to narrow down my client's folk due to the commonest set of surnames in all of innishowen. God bless them. But at least we know where to visit on our next trip to Ireland and when he's there and says "my ancestors were named >>>", everyone will love him. >Ann Marshall MUIR, married Robert GREIG in 1882 In Holytown, Lanark., >Scotland. Robert Greig was born about 1854, Ireland, the son of Robert >Greig and Jane HUGHES. I'd doubt check the 1855 Scottish civil registration for him. If the birth was registered in 1855 then addtional info beyond the usual stuff was collected that year. IT COULD TELL YOU WHERE THEY CAME FROM. I learned this reading books on Scottish genealogy and listening in lectures at the British Isles Family History Society USA....probably the latter! (They are better than all the books put together). >I'd like to know if anyone recognizes any of these individuals either in >Ireland or Scotland. The common given names and surnames make research >difficult. That's not enough to id individuals. You need an addition piece of info. A parish (a county in Scotland or Ireland is not enough). Either "Applied Genealogy" or "The Conceptual Approach to Genealogy" describe how to ID an individual. In one case in colonial America I found the specific locale VERY useful. Largely using land records we could distinguish between individuals with the same first/last names (who lived on different river branches). When one relocated to a new colony, we could still trace him because he sold the land. Other things you need are the occupation. In Scottish parish records you can get the name of the village they lived in. The key thing is watch the preposition. "IN" means they lived there, renting. "OF" means they were the gentile family whose seat the place was. You can find the same first/last names: one guy "IN" and one "OF". Only way to separate them is the parish records, not the oPR indexes. The surname MARSHALL was brought to Ireland in medieval times by the Normans -- a famous Marcher lord with five daughters. IN any case they continued on (one branch). I know as I have MARSHALLs in Tyrone -- as yet, lost!! Landlord types, left in 1821. I can tell you the middle men on the Calydon estate were Marshalls. H aven't traced mine back yet. He died young before anyone got interested in his family roots. People in Scotland rapidly forgot their "Irish" roots. IN the case of Ulster Scots, there wasn't much difference as culturally they were often the same. IN the case of Catholic Irish, they assimilated into Protestant Scotland and were no more interested in telling others about their roots than some individuals of mixed ancestry wish to tell about their African heritage (until recently). Black "Surnames of Scotland" has some examples of su rname assimilation in Galloway. Linda Merle ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hi Folks, attached is the free update from Books Ulster regarding some new stuff added to their library. WHile much is generic Irish some items are of interest to the Ulster disapora: a bio of WIlliam Orr of County Antrim, hung in 1798 a recounting of South Carolina from clergy there to people back home on what to expect if they emigrated. This is mid 1800s. a recounting of Grosse Isle and the tragedy that met Irish emigrants during the Famine. Etc...etc. most of this stuff was written at the time and is not processed and reprocessed through various political agendas or attempts by historians to understand...you get to read and understand it yourself. My version had hot links but after being massaged by my email system it may require that you click on the link below. Sorry!!! Linda Merle ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Books Ulster" <booksulster@btopenworld.com> Reply-To: booksulster@btopenworld.com Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 14:22:53 -0000 www.LibraryIreland.com Included in this latest batch of additions to the Library are some legends of Ireland from P. W. Joyce, some short essays by Thomas Davis, a couple of chapters dealing with emigration to the US and Canada (Grosse Isle) from Maguire's `The Irish in America', Giraldus Cambrensis' description of the Irish in the 12th century, accounts of the fates of several leaders of 1798 from `Speeches from the Dock', as well as a very informative article on Celtic Surnames which deals mostly with the Irish, but also touches on Welsh, Scottish, Manx, Breton and other celtic names. Not least, for genealogists we have added more towns from the Ulster Towns Directory and have reproduced the alphabetical list of inhabitants (with addresses) from Henry Shaw's Dublin City Directory of 1850. Seeoran, Lake of Sudden Disappearance of Two Lakes (County Mayo and Cavan legends) Inish-Keeragh, Legend of An Island Split in Three by a Storm (County Clare legend) Meath, Legend of A Cross raised up in the Air (County Meath legend) Westmeath, Legend of A Steeple of Fire in the Air (County Westmeath legend) O'Dangal's Vision O'Dangal's Vision St. Colman, Legend of St. Colman's Ducks (County Wexford legend) Inishnameo, Legend of The Island of Lough Cre or Inishnameo (County Tipperary Legend) Surnames, Celtic Celtic Surnames Kilclief Castle Kilclief Castle, County of Down Banagher, Church of The Old Church of Banagher, County of Londonderry Youghal, Raleigh's House Walter Raleigh's House at Youghal, County Cork Sheares, Henry and John Henry and John Sheares (and the 1798 Rebellion) Dublin Directory 1850 Henry Shaw's Dublin City Directory, 1850 (Alphabetical List) Saintfield, County Down Ulster Towns Directory 1910: Saintfield, County Down Rostrevor, County Down Ulster Towns Directory 1910: Rostrevor, County Down Richhill, County Armagh Ulster Towns Directory 1910: Richhill, County Armagh Customs, Irish Of the Character, Customs, and Habits of this People (The Irish) Orange and Green Orange and Green Nation, The (journal) A Second Year's Work (at The Nation) Munster Munster Outrages Russell, Thomas Thomas Russell (and the 1798 Rebellion) Emigration to South Carolina Bishop Lynch's Letter on Emigration from Ireland to South Carolina Emigration to Canada The Irish Exodus to Canada: Grosse Isle, 1847-8 Orr, William William Orr Tone, Theobald Wolfe Theobald Wolfe Tone Email: info@libraryireland.com ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at mail.fea.net

Hello Listers, I have added a little archive of 20 pages containing passenger lists, death notices, newspapers notices and other miscellaneous items relating to people from various Ulster counties 1810-1812 You can search it at http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-pages.php by selecting "Passenger Lists, Deaths, Miscellaneous" from the listings. best regards Robert www.ulsterancestry.com _________________________________________________________________ Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger 7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

I have updated the Banbridge births and christenings on my websites with a few hundred more names, the website search engine will not pick up the new names till after Monday morning, but you can browse through the names just now , by going to the Banbridge index page of the website, click on births and scroll to the names beginning with the letter S, these include the Quaker births as well as the civil, the names of the father and maiden name of the mother , and the best of luck in your research. Raymond http://www.raymondscountydownwebsite.com

The Douglas DNA Project is in the process of establishing the DNA profile of Willem de Duglis (1174). Once we have established this we will be able to tell any Douglas male whether or not he is directly descended from Willem through the male line. This is very useful for family historians because it verifies the paper records. Knowing Willem's YDNA profile will also tell us more about whether or not he was descended from Vikings. We can also differentiate between the various lines of Douglases, such as the Morton Douglases, the Hamiltons, the descendants of the Earls of Queensberry, by looking at the various mutations that have occurred along the descent from Willem. This will be of enormous value to the Douglases who have lost their connections to the Old Douglas lines. It will greatly narrow down their search for the connections. To do this we need to test 2 men who are known to descend from Willem. These men will have the same YDNA profile as Willem himself, except for a few mutations which have occurred along the way. We have one person tested currently, but need one more who is known to descend from Willem. Similarly, to identify the various lines we need as many Douglases with known lineages to do the DNA test as possible. This will allow us to identify the mutation characteristics of the various sub-lines. You can check the Douglas DNA Project website for more information: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Douglas/ All surname Projects can offer testing at $99 per person. If your surname does not have a Project started, the testing is $159. During this holiday season, FTDNA is offering anyone who applies before December 31 a $30 gift certificate. I am a Douglas descendant and I'm trying to encourage more Douglases to participate because we can't get the information we need unless we get more people. Right now we only have 11 tested. Many other surnames have 70 and 80 participants. Jane (Douglas) Miscavich _____ From: Scotch-Irish-D-request@rootsweb.com [mailto:Scotch-Irish-D-request@rootsweb.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:00 AM To: Scotch-Irish-D@rootsweb.com Subject: Scotch-Irish-D Digest V05 #228

On 13 Dec, 2005, at 22:50, Llhight@aol.com wrote: > Dear J, > > I took that data right off his page on Google. > > Try this one. _http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm_ > (http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm) > > You wrote/Iwrote: > > I followed your instructions and immediately > Ancestry.com came up and your message disappeared?? > What happened?? jsemper@earthlink.net Loose the "_" (underscore) which precedes and follows the URL. The one in parens should work correctly. T.T.F.N. William H. Magill magill@mcgillsociety.org magill@acm.org magill@mac.com whmagill@gmail.com

Dear J, I took that data right off his page on Google. Try this one. _http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm_ (http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm) You wrote/Iwrote: I followed your instructions and immediately Ancestry.com came up and your message disappeared?? What happened?? jsemper@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: <Llhight@aol.com> > To: <Scotch-Irish-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 12/13/05 6:11:47 PM > Subject: [Sc-Ir] Genetic Genealogy = DNA > > Hi folks, > > DNA a great new tool for family research. > > Google: "Genetic Genealogy" use the quotes. > > One source listed on that page is: > _http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm_ (http://www.kerchner.com/dna-info.htm) > > It has all the basics. go to the bottom of the > page to the little blue box and hit: Find Your Surname. > This is one of several such GG lists. Sorry, don't know what went astray. kindly Lloyd