Facts about Appalachia...where I lived and taught for quite a while, where my husband's family came..in the 1700's and established towns, (literally), and where I have been pretty well acclimated and accepted in. The Appalachia region was settled by two major groups..Germans (came through PA and down through the Cumberland Gap into East TN and Western N.C, and western VA, and SW KY)..their names changed from Weber to Weaver (have the proof)..they were not necessarily poor..but were not accepted in the areas they came into in PA. The second group..came in from the coast..many had been indentured servants..many of whom left indentured status before the period was up, and went outside the 'civilized' areas and headed into the mountains. Many have Bibles which show where they come from..and many did come from Northern Ireland and were Presbyterian. But their names were the Scottish spellings not the Irish, yet a number came through northern Ireland. There were also a large number of Irish Quakers...who came into PA, and also into the coastal areas of NC..and moved to central NC and then on into East TN (the State of Franklin) which was originally a part of VA. They settled in and established Quaker communities such as Quakers' Knob and established schools which are now public schools. They are not included in what is known as the Scotch-Irish community. The Scotch-Irish community which isolated itself from the Germans and the Quakers, remained in the hollows, the back areas where they could stay hidden and maintain their lives without being bothered...and many still do today. Many times I had trouble understanding the English of a number of the students..because they spoke an older form of English which has been maintained. Many of these people, much as I hate to say it, harbor today a distrust of Catholics..and call them non-Christian (along with the Episcopalians) stating they 'worship Mary'. I heard far too many of them say this. They can trace their ancestry back to Northern Ireland and Scotland. They brought with them the techniques of making damn good whisky..including how to age it properly..I know..I have had it! They were the ones who shipped their corn to market in 'barrels' not in bushels..because they floated the barrels on rafts. My husband's 4th great was a trader who knew where to get the 'finest' whiskey in the world outside of Scotland and Ireland, and floated it down river each spring when the rivers rose with the melting snow. My husband is considered 'one of them' and we safely go in areas where most don't go. His family left the area of Cocke County in the early 1800's but he is still considered family (and was related to about half his students). We have learned where to look for information in that area. My one side of my family was basically chased out of Northern Ireland..Irish Presbyterian minister..removed from Ireland...and I have a lot of those records. BTW, the reasons so many wound up in the Smokies..first..much like 'home' to them as to land and subsistence farming. Second, they could stay 'under cover' so to speak. They were tough survivors, could deal with harsher conditions, isolation, education was not important to many of them. Many just suddenly appear and unless you know them, you will find they just suddenly appear in the 1700's in that region with no hints as to where they had been or came from. Donna

Several of us on another list have recently found the following helpful: Jane H. Ohlmeyer. Civil War and Restoration in the Three Stuart Kingdoms: The Career of Randal MacDonnell, Marquis of Antrim, 1609-1683. New York: Camabridge University Press, 1993. Pp. xxiii, 357. Quick personal overview: > this book chronicles the public career of the 17th century McDonnell > (the 2nd Lord Antrim) who "saved" the family estates - though you'd > miss that focus if you only looked at the title on the spine of the > book jacket: Civil War and Restoration in the Three Stuart Kingdoms. > It's the first treatment of that time period I've seen from a > perspective that balances events in Ireland, Scotland, England, and > the Continent, - viewed from the "Celtic fringe" of North Antrim; a > necessary counterbalance to traditional histories only focusing on > events from the perspective of one of the individual countries. > Hugh Nevin

Anyone interested in the Cromwell-inspired genocide in Ireland might also read: "Hell or Connaught!: The Cromwellian Colonization of Ireland, 1652-1660" by Peter Berresford Ellis (1975) But the Irish weren't the ones who dug up his body in Westminster, gave it a posthumous execution for regicide in 1661, cut off the corpse's head and hung it on a pole outside Westminister for 25 years. His own disavowed him for being a religious zealot, a hypocrite and a mass-murderer. > From: [email protected] > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:33:52 -0500 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [S-I] "Irish in the Caribbean" > > A supplement, not an argument: > > Someone here has a tagline about "The past is another country. They do > things differently there". > > When you read a lot of history, after a while you get over ascribing nasty > and nefarious motives to people in a far different time, because you have > learned how different the environment, the threats to security, the world > they lived in, was. > > We live in a world where lots of people keep pets and think of it as normal > and a pleasant part of life. But there are people elsewhere (Sweden, I > think) who consider keeping pets as we think of slavery, an offence against > nature and morality. > > I am trying to keep that in mind; however it is a struggle, when I consider > what I know about what Cromwell and his minions, did to the people of > Ireland - because he won, and because he had the guns and swords. > > Ann L. > > > > In a message dated 3/1/2010 12:16:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: > > Well, I did read the book including the footnotes and glanced through his > bibliography. The book is definitely part of the anti-English polemic that > the Irish are so fond of, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Another person > could of course re-shuffle the same data and come up with a different > conclusion and on and on -- fodder for future dissertations and books > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/

Well, at least Cromwell is gone - dead and buried... ;-) Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Barth" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 1:35 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] "Irish in the Caribbean" > > Anyone interested in the Cromwell-inspired genocide in Ireland might also > read: > > > > "Hell or Connaught!: The Cromwellian Colonization of Ireland, 1652-1660" > by Peter Berresford Ellis (1975) > > > > But the Irish weren't the ones who dug up his body in Westminster, gave it > a posthumous execution for regicide in 1661, cut off the corpse's head and > hung it on a pole outside Westminister for 25 years. > > > > His own disavowed him for being a religious zealot, a hypocrite and a > mass-murderer. > > > > > > > > > >> From: [email protected] >> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:33:52 -0500 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [S-I] "Irish in the Caribbean" >> >> A supplement, not an argument: >> >> Someone here has a tagline about "The past is another country. They do >> things differently there". >> >> When you read a lot of history, after a while you get over ascribing >> nasty >> and nefarious motives to people in a far different time, because you have >> learned how different the environment, the threats to security, the world >> they lived in, was. >> >> We live in a world where lots of people keep pets and think of it as >> normal >> and a pleasant part of life. But there are people elsewhere (Sweden, I >> think) who consider keeping pets as we think of slavery, an offence >> against >> nature and morality. >> >> I am trying to keep that in mind; however it is a struggle, when I >> consider >> what I know about what Cromwell and his minions, did to the people of >> Ireland - because he won, and because he had the guns and swords. >> >> Ann L. >> >> >> >> In a message dated 3/1/2010 12:16:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: >> >> Well, I did read the book including the footnotes and glanced through his >> bibliography. The book is definitely part of the anti-English polemic >> that >> the Irish are so fond of, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Another >> person >> could of course re-shuffle the same data and come up with a different >> conclusion and on and on -- fodder for future dissertations and books >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Linda Your recent exposition, with many links, on indentured servants is a posting to be kept, and I have printed it off and put it securely into my box of "indentured servant" materials.  One statement that you made in particular caught my eye, which is about the estimate of 90% of the early settlers in some parts of Virginia being from Ulster.  You say "it is estimated," but by whom?  I cannot use this information without a source.  Is it from Leyburn?  And which parts of Virginia? Michael --- On Wed, 2/3/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 13 To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 3:01 AM Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:57:51 +0000 (UTC) From: [email protected] Subject: [S-I] Indentured Servants To: List <[email protected]> Message-ID: Hi folks, I am forwarding on the URL for this website although it does not directly relate to the so-called "Scotch-Irish" who supposedly evacuated from Ulster, not London. My reasons are that so many came over that they dominated an area of the Americans that is roughly the size of Europe. We call this area today, roughly, "Appalachia". What this dominance means, according to the books I've read, such as Leyburn's "The Scotch-Irish", is that their culture predominated. We are all familiar with cultural dominance. It is like when anyone comes here: the immigrant generation talks funny, dresses funny, has funny customs, eats funny food, but the children are indistinguishable from children 'born here' to native Americans -- they eat American food, they talk American, they dress American, they have American values, etc. The same works for migrants to Australia, England, France, Mongolia....where-ever. Small groups or families moving into a larger culture tend to assimilate into the large!. So while there are areas of Virginia where it is estimated 90% of the early settlers originated in Ulster, there is the 10%. And in some areas the percentage is believed to be much higher. But they all became "Scotch-Irish", which is actually the name of an American ethnic group, not an Ulster one.... ... Linda Merle

A supplement, not an argument: Someone here has a tagline about "The past is another country. They do things differently there". When you read a lot of history, after a while you get over ascribing nasty and nefarious motives to people in a far different time, because you have learned how different the environment, the threats to security, the world they lived in, was. We live in a world where lots of people keep pets and think of it as normal and a pleasant part of life. But there are people elsewhere (Sweden, I think) who consider keeping pets as we think of slavery, an offence against nature and morality. I am trying to keep that in mind; however it is a struggle, when I consider what I know about what Cromwell and his minions, did to the people of Ireland - because he won, and because he had the guns and swords. Ann L. In a message dated 3/1/2010 12:16:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: Well, I did read the book including the footnotes and glanced through his bibliography. The book is definitely part of the anti-English polemic that the Irish are so fond of, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Another person could of course re-shuffle the same data and come up with a different conclusion and on and on -- fodder for future dissertations and books

Well, I did read the book including the footnotes and glanced through his bibliography. The book is definitely part of the anti-English polemic that the Irish are so fond of, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Another person could of course re-shuffle the same data and come up with a different conclusion and on and on -- fodder for future dissertations and books. However I suspect it is right. It was a huge scandal in its day (newspaper articles) when the government was discovered to be enslaving Irish. This wasn't discovered till a man of the upper classes was siezed in Ireland. It wasn't till he was sold in Virginia that it was realized who he was. The winners of these situations generally write the history and try not to leave evidence but his evidence in this case is good. Cromwell is undergoing somewhat of a rehabilitation. Being a non scholar, and poor, I don't read the journals and the latest and greatest, but I do own and have read several recent books on Cromwell in Ireland and Cromwell in general, built on an examination of contemporaneous primary evidence instead of on past vitrionics, as the Victorians were so fond of doing. Setting him in his historic context and reading primary evidence seems to show him to be much less of the bad guy than he is generally thought. This period in British history (writers always say in their forewords) has so far proven to be impossible to entirely understand -- so various authors almost always contradict each other. He who reads one book thinks he knows it all, but after two or three, one fears to say anything about it (even me!). A lot of us are still brainwashed by Victorian historians..... There apparently are amazingly good records in Barbados (bibliography of the book) and it did explain to me where several individuals I had been tracing in colonial America came from. One was confirmed to be from the West Indies. It is an important part of the North American past, whether or not one likes Cromwell. I also don't think, or rather I figure the person isn't thinking (brain became unplugged somewhere...) when they rant about Cromwell. This is particularly ahistorical when it's the descendents of people who supported him. Often these people haven't even figured that out <grin>. Oi (as my Jewish friend would say). So whether I liked the tone of the book or not, the fact that it did fill in some missing holes in my understanding of colonial America is what is convincing for me. I can't read Foxe either! Worse than a few historical books on Cromwell. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Montgomery Michael" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 5:36:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 39 "Irish in the Caribbean" I cannot tell what Mr Barth means by "excellent" when he refers to O'Callaghan's _To Hell or Barbados_, but I must say that I found the book unreadable. There is obviously much historical material in it, but the book is a bald polemic by a journalist whose central and constant passion is to demonize Cromwell and his forces in every lurid way possible. If you like to read martyrology, maybe this book is for you. I can't take more than about four or five pages of Foxe's _Book of Martyrs_ at a time, nor could I read more than about six or eight of O'Callaghan's very angry account. However loathsome and culpable one may judge Cromwell and especially those who acted in his name are (and their exceeses and abuses were legion), is it an author's duty to spill their blood on every page? Isn't the case much more effectively and credibly made if readers are left to or guided to this conclusion, rather than having it pounded into every paragraph? Whether it was because it happened so long ago or that so scant a trace of them was left, the tens of thousands of Irish deported by Cromwell et al. to Virginia and the Caribbean rarely merit mention in standard histories today. So O'Callaghan's story is clearly one that needs to be told, but not in his way or with his dodgy use of sources. When a writer makes little or no effort to discriminate allegation from fact and the sources of many allegations are very murky, let the reader beware. Michael Montgomery Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:26:12 +0000 From: Henry Barth <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] Irish and Scots slaves To: <[email protected]> An excellent book on the 50,000+ Irish and Scots slaves sent to the Caribbean and Virginia between 1652 and 1659 is ?To Hell or Barbados? (subtitled ?The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland?) by Sean O?Callaghan. HB ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Whew! On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Montgomery Michael wrote: > I cannot tell what Mr Barth means by "excellent" when he refers to > O'Callaghan's _To Hell or Barbados_, but I must say that I found the > book unreadable.  There is obviously much historical material in it, > but the book is a bald polemic by a journalist whose central and > constant passion is to demonize Cromwell and his forces in every lurid > way possible.  If you like to read martyrology, maybe this book is for > you.  I can't take more than about four or five pages of Foxe's _Book > of Martyrs_ at a time, nor could I read more than about six or eight > of O'Callaghan's very angry account.  However loathsome and culpable > one may judge Cromwell and especially those who acted in his name are > (and their exceeses and abuses were legion), is it an author's duty to > spill their blood on every page?  Isn't the case much more effectively > and credibly made if readers are left to or guided > to this conclusion, rather than having it pounded into every > paragraph?  > > Whether it was because it happened so long ago or that so scant a > trace of them was left, the tens of thousands of Irish deported by > Cromwell et al. to Virginia and the Caribbean rarely merit mention in > standard histories today.  So O'Callaghan's story is clearly one that > needs to be told, but not in his way or with his dodgy use of > sources.  When a writer makes little or no effort to discriminate > allegation from fact and the sources of many allegations are very > murky, let the reader beware. > > Michael Montgomery > > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:26:12 +0000 > From: Henry Barth <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [S-I] Irish and Scots slaves > To: <[email protected]> > > An excellent book on the 50,000+ Irish and Scots slaves sent to the > Caribbean and Virginia between 1652 and 1659 is ?To Hell or Barbados? > (subtitled ?The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland?) by Sean O?Callaghan.  > > HB > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Janet, no, I do not know if there is such a group. I was about to say 'but if I did, I'd google for it" but there are a lot of small organizations that actually don't have any Internet presence. Most of the ones I keep hearing about are small, local groups, but why not a national group? There are certainly societies in the world. See http://www.irishpalatines.org . A lot of organizations are becoming defunct through an inability to figure out a way to survive a growing population that thinks all they have to do to find ancestors is post on a message board at rootsweb. Then wait a day or so <grin>! Or they get heavily into the habit of Internet genealogy and they don't join or support local or ethnic groups. These groups in the past provided much of the material that is available now by finding, saving, transcribing, and publishing material. Since they have fewer volunteers less and less is getting done and it is our fault! One group that focuses on German migration is the Immigrant Genealogical Society: http://www.immigrantgensoc.org/ . Its journal is awesome -- and rare to find. This list has always 'covered' other Protestant ethnic groups in Ireland because "Scotch Irish" is not an Irish ethnic group. It is an American one. I can point you to research by the Scotch Irish Society of America to prove that. I'm not typing it in again -- but it's in the archives which you can search. In an area of America larger than Europe, the majority of the settlers were Protestants from Ulster. Others assimilated into their culture. They comprise: American Indians, Africans, English, Scots, Germans, etc -- whoever else was about. In some areas Protestants from Ulster made up 90% or more of the populace, but in others it was less. So when your grandmother said "We are Scotch Irish" she wasn't signaling to you that her ancestors were from Ulster or were of Scots origin (though she might have thought she was). She was really indicating where in America her ancestors had lived and which ethnic identity they'd hung their hat on. Included in that ethnic tag was 'we came from Ulster and are of Scots origin'. You tend to buy into the whole lock stock and barrell. In reality, in Ulster, there are many people of English, Welsh, French, German, Irish, etc origins. Some of them are Protestants and some are Catholic. If they've not read a few books or otherwise educated themselves, they may believe their ancestors were from Scotland. Or if Catholic, they'd be ashamed to learn their ancestors were not Irish. However in reality, as DNA has now proven, Ulster is a melting pot. Many Irish assimilated into the settlers and settlers assimilated into Irish. Only 400 years ago the ethnicity of Ulster was much more complex but in the course of history people were presented with only two choices. Most people, coming to colonial America, had NO choice regarding religion (and ethnicity). Many colonies had a state religion. Even in areas where the colony couldn't enforce the official religion (uplands of Virginia, for example), there were no Catholic churches and no priests. You could not possibly remain a Catholic -- you could not celebrate the sacraments as a Catholic. If this was important to you, you went to Maryland where there were Catholic churches and priests -- as well as adjoining areas of Pennsylvania. Otherwise your children assimilated into 'Scotch Irish" and your great grandchildren assumed the family were Protestant in Ireland because they most definitely were Scotch Irish here. Unfortunately for the poor Irish Catholic, the German Catholic communities of colonial Pennsylvania didn't welcome him. The snotty Baltimorians may have also turned their noses up at him. Many of these people were English and Scots recusants from very old, upper class families. They were not so fond of people they'd not hire as servants, even. The German Catholic records in PA have few Irish names. Once the Revolution was over, patterns changed in America and people left their ethnic enclaves (and way of thinking) and a new nation was formed with very different values with fewer class and ethnic distinctions. Plus finally they could all cross the Alleghenies and settle the west, which was difficult, and meant pulling together as one people or end up slaughtered by the Indians. So after the Revolution the Irish and German Catholics were celebrating the sacraments together in western Pennsylvania -- including the sacrament of marriage. Meanwhile the memory of various ethnic groups in Ireland has faded. Ignorance isn't a modern invention. In the mid 1600s There was a colony of I think Flemish lace makers living in Dublin who were identified in a 'census' as Irish because they didn't speak English; therefore they msut be Irish, right? Wrong guy was put in charge of THAT census <grin>! By the way, the removal of Irish by Cromwell to the west Indies was an atrocity of epic proportions, whitewashed over by English historians. The people sent off were NOT Ulster Protestants, who supported Cromwell as he wasn't an Irish Catholic and who did, after many years, finally put down the Rising of 1642. They were Irish, mostly elsewhere in Ireland. Besides the book already mentioned (which I own and have read), see http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1638 . This post builds a connection to the west Indies and America. You DO find people with Irish surnames manifesting in the continental colonies who seem to not be Irish, culturally speaking. Where did they come from? West Indies, where they were sent a hundred years before, is one answer and sometimes you can even find proof! It is good to study history because without some knowledge of it, you may waste your life looking for an ancestor in Ireland whose family was 100 years gone from Ireland. This ancestor may well be Protestant and to be culturally Scotch Irish but a little DNA testing will show he's of southern Irish origin. Perhaps a rare survivor of the gulags of the West Indies where the Irish died much faster than African slaves. It was a death sentence. NO ONE returned to Ireland, ever. But some did turn up in coastal America -- and assimilated into Scotch Irish or Coastal Anglican Merchant, Philadelphia Friend, or Yankee farmer, or New Jersey Marsh Bunny, or whatever <grin>. Apparently there are church records (see bibliography of "Hell or Barbados"). I wonder if there are DNA studies of the Redshanks of Barbados?? Haven't seen any. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:07:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines/Nellesin It's interesting to encounter Palatines on this list. At one time our area had an active Palatines to America Chapter - I think centered in Columbus, OH (?) - with a group of it organized to meet in my home-town. By that time, although still very much feeling a product primarily of the UK - father descended from mostly Scottish and Scotch-Irish roots, I uncovered a lot of German on my Mother's side with a wee bit creeping in through marriage on my father's side - also I was studying German in college at that time - so I became a member. When the group here in town disbanded, I lost touch eventually with the main Chapter. By any chance does anyone know if this still exists as a national genealogical group? Janet Mc. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ah! genealogical success comes to a crashing halt due to a small typo. Look at URL below. It's missing an l. http://www.teskey.org/palhist.htm http://www.teskey.org/palhist.html PS: If you google you 'll find a lot more information. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "marsha moses" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:19:38 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines Linda, the URL did not work. Marsha On Feb 28, 2010, at 9:13 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Karen, no, that is not correct. Why not read the articles > included as URLs? They'll make it clear and contain a lot more info > than the articles. > > Read here: > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:58:31 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines > > I should know but I don't -- what does the word "palatine" refer to > in this > context please? I associate that word with Palestine - is that > related? > Thanks, > Karen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Virginia Beck" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:09 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines > > > Yes, Linda: When I was researching my husband's Palatine Nellis > family (who > landed in NY in 1710), I was contacted by a descendant of an Irish > 'O'Nellis' family. He had been certain the name was truly Irish, but > learning that it was a Palatine name planted a seed of doubt, and > indicated > the need for further research. Although we didn't maintain contact, > I feel > pretty sure the family was part of that mass exodus, and that at > least one > group of the Nellis family chose Ireland over any part of the "New > World". > > Pretty extensive records of the Palatine émigrés to this country > were kept. > Their story has been researched extensively, and a number of > excellent books > about them have been published. When their proposed job of supplying > pine > pitch for the British Navy proved unworkable (the trees were the > wrong kind > - a classic bureaucratic boo-boo), many left the camps where the > English had > housed them, "squatted" on land in the Mohawk Valley & eventually > gained > title to it. > > They were America's first large group of non-English speaking > immigrants and > their participation in earlier wars (Queen Anne's, 1812, French & > Indian) > greatly impacted events that led to the Revolution. While most of them > joined the colonists during the Revolution, some stayed loyal to the > English, and many Palatine names are also found in Canada. > > This era and these people are depicted in the movie "Drums Along the > Mohawk", starring Henry Fonda, whose ancestors WERE Palatines from > this > area. Fonda, Montgomery Co. NY was named for them. I found margin > notes > signed by a Fonda descendant in some of the books in the Montgomery > County > Heritage & Genealogical Society there - one was a correction of > information > about my husband's family. > Virginia > > -------------- > > . . . in looking for a second hand copy of "The Irish Palatines in > Ontario" > (and finding none, but the first edition is in the Family History > Library.....), I did find this lecture entitled "Desperation > genealogy or > What the Rest of Us Can Learn from Irish Family History Researchers" > > . . . if anyone is wondering what is a Palatine -- it is a group of > people > who lived in the Palatinate area of what is now Germany, > Protestants, who > migrated in the 1700s. Some went directly to the New World while > some went > to England and Ireland. At the time various Irish estate owners were > looking > for Protestant tenants. The largest number were settled in Limerick. > Many > then joined the migration to the New World. Some of us think our > ancestors > were Scotch Irish and they were not: they were Palatines, so we're > looking > in the wrong end of Ireland for them. So check the list of surnames of > Palatines. Some are listed on the web here: > http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/canada/ontario/general/resources/101185 > .htm > > The names include Adamson, Baker, Bowen, Brown, etc -- names that > don't seem > German at all. The Limerick people began coming to the Americas in > large > numbers in 1709 -- before the Scotch Irish -- and they founded > American > Methodism. > > > Linda Merle > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I cannot tell what Mr Barth means by "excellent" when he refers to O'Callaghan's _To Hell or Barbados_, but I must say that I found the book unreadable.  There is obviously much historical material in it, but the book is a bald polemic by a journalist whose central and constant passion is to demonize Cromwell and his forces in every lurid way possible.  If you like to read martyrology, maybe this book is for you.  I can't take more than about four or five pages of Foxe's _Book of Martyrs_ at a time, nor could I read more than about six or eight of O'Callaghan's very angry account.  However loathsome and culpable one may judge Cromwell and especially those who acted in his name are (and their exceeses and abuses were legion), is it an author's duty to spill their blood on every page?  Isn't the case much more effectively and credibly made if readers are left to or guided to this conclusion, rather than having it pounded into every paragraph?  Whether it was because it happened so long ago or that so scant a trace of them was left, the tens of thousands of Irish deported by Cromwell et al. to Virginia and the Caribbean rarely merit mention in standard histories today.  So O'Callaghan's story is clearly one that needs to be told, but not in his way or with his dodgy use of sources.  When a writer makes little or no effort to discriminate allegation from fact and the sources of many allegations are very murky, let the reader beware. Michael Montgomery Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:26:12 +0000 From: Henry Barth <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] Irish and Scots slaves To: <[email protected]> An excellent book on the 50,000+ Irish and Scots slaves sent to the Caribbean and Virginia between 1652 and 1659 is ?To Hell or Barbados? (subtitled ?The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland?) by Sean O?Callaghan.  HB

Good Old Google! Palatines to America is up and running. Here is a link to a chapter near you. _http://www.palam.org/chapters.php_ (http://www.palam.org/chapters.php) Richard In a message dated 2/28/2010 2:18:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Janet, no, I do not know if there is such a group. I was about to say 'but if I did, I'd google for it" but there are a lot of small organizations that actually don't have any Internet presence. Most of the ones I keep hearing about are small, local groups, but why not a national group? There are certainly societies in the world. See http://www.irishpalatines.org . A lot of organizations are becoming defunct through an inability to figure out a way to survive a growing population that thinks all they have to do to find ancestors is post on a message board at rootsweb. Then wait a day or so <grin>! Or they get heavily into the habit of Internet genealogy and they don't join or support local or ethnic groups. These groups in the past provided much of the material that is available now by finding, saving, transcribing, and publishing material. Since they have fewer volunteers less and less is getting done and it is our fault! One group that focuses on German migration is the Immigrant Genealogical Society: http://www.immigrantgensoc.org/ . Its journal is awesome -- and rare to find. This list has always 'covered' other Protestant ethnic groups in Ireland because "Scotch Irish" is not an Irish ethnic group. It is an American one. I can point you to research by the Scotch Irish Society of America to prove that. I'm not typing it in again -- but it's in the archives which you can search. In an area of America larger than Europe, the majority of the settlers were Protestants from Ulster. Others assimilated into their culture. They comprise: American Indians, Africans, English, Scots, Germans, etc -- whoever else was about. In some areas Protestants from Ulster made up 90% or more of the populace, but in others it was less. So when your grandmother said "We are Scotch Irish" she wasn't signaling to you that her ancestors were from Ulster or were of Scots origin (though she might have thought she was). She was really indicating where in America her ancestors had lived and which ethnic identity they'd hung their hat on. Included in that ethnic tag was 'we came! from Ulster and are of Scots origin'. You tend to buy into the whole lock stock and barrell. In reality, in Ulster, there are many people of English, Welsh, French, German, Irish, etc origins. Some of them are Protestants and some are Catholic. If they've not read a few books or otherwise educated themselves, they may believe their ancestors were from Scotland. Or if Catholic, they'd be ashamed to learn their ancestors were not Irish. However in reality, as DNA has now proven, Ulster is a melting pot. Many Irish assimilated into the settlers and settlers assimilated into Irish. Only 400 years ago the ethnicity of Ulster was much more complex but in the course of history people were presented with only two choices. Most people, coming to colonial America, had NO choice regarding religion (and ethnicity). Many colonies had a state religion. Even in areas where the colony couldn't enforce the official religion (uplands of Virginia, for example), there were no Catholic churches and no priests. You could not possibly remain a Catholic -- you could not celebrate the sacraments as a Catholic. If this was important to you, you went to Maryland where there were Catholic churches and priests -- as well as adjoining areas of Pennsylvania. Otherwise your children assimilated into 'Scotch Irish" and your great grandchildren assumed the family were Protestant in Ireland because they most definitely were Scotch Irish here. Unfortunately for the poor Irish Catholic, the German Catholic communities of colonial Pennsylvania didn't welcome him. The snotty Baltimorians may have also turned their noses up at him. Many of these people were English and Scots recusants from very old, upper class families. They were not so fond of people they'd not hire as servants, even. The German Catholic records in PA have few Irish names. Once the Revolution was over, patterns changed in America and people left their ethnic enclaves (and way of thinking) and a new nation was formed with very different values with fewer class and ethnic distinctions. Plus finally they could all cross the Alleghenies and settle the west, which was difficult, and meant pulling together as one people or end up slaughtered by the Indians. So after the Revolution the Irish and German Catholics were celebrating the sacraments together in western Pennsylvania -- including the sacrament of marriage. Meanwhile the memory of various ethnic groups in Ireland has faded. Ignorance isn't a modern invention. In the mid 1600s There was a colony of I think Flemish lace makers living in Dublin who were identified in a 'census' as Irish because they didn't speak English; therefore they msut be Irish, right? Wrong guy was put in charge of THAT census <grin>! By the way, the removal of Irish by Cromwell to the west Indies was an atrocity of epic proportions, whitewashed over by English historians. The people sent off were NOT Ulster Protestants, who supported Cromwell as he wasn't an Irish Catholic and who did, after many years, finally put down the Rising of 1642. They were Irish, mostly elsewhere in Ireland. Besides the book already mentioned (which I own and have read), see http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1 638 . This post builds a connection to the west Indies and America. You DO find people with Irish surnames manifesting in the continental colonies who seem to not be Irish, culturally speaking. Where did they come from? West Indies, where they were sent a hundred years before, is one answer and sometimes you can even find proof! It is good to study history because without some knowledge of it, you may waste your life looking for an ancestor in Ireland whose family was 100 years gone from Ireland. This ancestor may well be Protestant and to be culturally Scotch Irish but a little DNA testing will show he's of southern Irish origin. Perhaps a rare survivor of the gulags of the West Indies where the Irish died much faster than African slaves. It was a death sentence. NO ONE returned to Ireland, ever. But some did turn up in coastal America -- and assimilated into Scotch Irish or Coastal Anglican Merchant, Philadelphia Friend, or Yankee farmer, or New Jersey Marsh Bunny, or whatever <grin>. Apparently there are church records (see bibliography of "Hell or Barbados"). I wonder if there are DNA studies of the Redshanks of Barbados?? Haven't seen any. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:07:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines/Nellesin It's interesting to encounter Palatines on this list. At one time our area had an active Palatines to America Chapter - I think centered in Columbus, OH (?) - with a group of it organized to meet in my home-town. By that time, although still very much feeling a product primarily of the UK - father descended from mostly Scottish and Scotch-Irish roots, I uncovered a lot of German on my Mother's side with a wee bit creeping in through marriage on my father's side - also I was studying German in college at that time - so I became a member. When the group here in town disbanded, I lost touch eventually with the main Chapter. By any chance does anyone know if this still exists as a national genealogical group? Janet Mc. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Karen, no, that is not correct. Why not read the articles included as URLs? They'll make it clear and contain a lot more info than the articles. Read here: http://www.teskey.org/palhist.htm Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:58:31 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines I should know but I don't -- what does the word "palatine" refer to in this context please? I associate that word with Palestine - is that related? Thanks, Karen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Virginia Beck" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines Yes, Linda: When I was researching my husband's Palatine Nellis family (who landed in NY in 1710), I was contacted by a descendant of an Irish 'O'Nellis' family. He had been certain the name was truly Irish, but learning that it was a Palatine name planted a seed of doubt, and indicated the need for further research. Although we didn't maintain contact, I feel pretty sure the family was part of that mass exodus, and that at least one group of the Nellis family chose Ireland over any part of the "New World". Pretty extensive records of the Palatine émigrés to this country were kept. Their story has been researched extensively, and a number of excellent books about them have been published. When their proposed job of supplying pine pitch for the British Navy proved unworkable (the trees were the wrong kind - a classic bureaucratic boo-boo), many left the camps where the English had housed them, "squatted" on land in the Mohawk Valley & eventually gained title to it. They were America's first large group of non-English speaking immigrants and their participation in earlier wars (Queen Anne's, 1812, French & Indian) greatly impacted events that led to the Revolution. While most of them joined the colonists during the Revolution, some stayed loyal to the English, and many Palatine names are also found in Canada. This era and these people are depicted in the movie "Drums Along the Mohawk", starring Henry Fonda, whose ancestors WERE Palatines from this area. Fonda, Montgomery Co. NY was named for them. I found margin notes signed by a Fonda descendant in some of the books in the Montgomery County Heritage & Genealogical Society there - one was a correction of information about my husband's family. Virginia -------------- . . . in looking for a second hand copy of "The Irish Palatines in Ontario" (and finding none, but the first edition is in the Family History Library.....), I did find this lecture entitled "Desperation genealogy or What the Rest of Us Can Learn from Irish Family History Researchers" . . . if anyone is wondering what is a Palatine -- it is a group of people who lived in the Palatinate area of what is now Germany, Protestants, who migrated in the 1700s. Some went directly to the New World while some went to England and Ireland. At the time various Irish estate owners were looking for Protestant tenants. The largest number were settled in Limerick. Many then joined the migration to the New World. Some of us think our ancestors were Scotch Irish and they were not: they were Palatines, so we're looking in the wrong end of Ireland for them. So check the list of surnames of Palatines. Some are listed on the web here: http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/canada/ontario/general/resources/101185 .htm The names include Adamson, Baker, Bowen, Brown, etc -- names that don't seem German at all. The Limerick people began coming to the Americas in large numbers in 1709 -- before the Scotch Irish -- and they founded American Methodism. Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:22 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines Ah! genealogical success comes to a crashing halt due to a small typo. Look at URL below. It's missing an l. http://www.teskey.org/palhist.htm http://www.teskey.org/palhist.html PS: If you google you 'll find a lot more information. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "marsha moses" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:19:38 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines Linda, the URL did not work. Marsha On Feb 28, 2010, at 9:13 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Karen, no, that is not correct. Why not read the articles > included as URLs? They'll make it clear and contain a lot more info > than the articles. > > Read here: > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:58:31 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines > > I should know but I don't -- what does the word "palatine" refer to > in this > context please? I associate that word with Palestine - is that > related? > Thanks, > Karen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Virginia Beck" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:09 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines > > > Yes, Linda: When I was researching my husband's Palatine Nellis > family (who > landed in NY in 1710), I was contacted by a descendant of an Irish > 'O'Nellis' family. He had been certain the name was truly Irish, but > learning that it was a Palatine name planted a seed of doubt, and > indicated > the need for further research. Although we didn't maintain contact, > I feel > pretty sure the family was part of that mass exodus, and that at > least one > group of the Nellis family chose Ireland over any part of the "New > World". > > Pretty extensive records of the Palatine émigrés to this country > were kept. > Their story has been researched extensively, and a number of > excellent books > about them have been published. When their proposed job of supplying > pine > pitch for the British Navy proved unworkable (the trees were the > wrong kind > - a classic bureaucratic boo-boo), many left the camps where the > English had > housed them, "squatted" on land in the Mohawk Valley & eventually > gained > title to it. > > They were America's first large group of non-English speaking > immigrants and > their participation in earlier wars (Queen Anne's, 1812, French & > Indian) > greatly impacted events that led to the Revolution. While most of them > joined the colonists during the Revolution, some stayed loyal to the > English, and many Palatine names are also found in Canada. > > This era and these people are depicted in the movie "Drums Along the > Mohawk", starring Henry Fonda, whose ancestors WERE Palatines from > this > area. Fonda, Montgomery Co. NY was named for them. I found margin > notes > signed by a Fonda descendant in some of the books in the Montgomery > County > Heritage & Genealogical Society there - one was a correction of > information > about my husband's family. > Virginia > > -------------- > > . . . in looking for a second hand copy of "The Irish Palatines in > Ontario" > (and finding none, but the first edition is in the Family History > Library.....), I did find this lecture entitled "Desperation > genealogy or > What the Rest of Us Can Learn from Irish Family History Researchers" > > . . . if anyone is wondering what is a Palatine -- it is a group of > people > who lived in the Palatinate area of what is now Germany, > Protestants, who > migrated in the 1700s. Some went directly to the New World while > some went > to England and Ireland. At the time various Irish estate owners were > looking > for Protestant tenants. The largest number were settled in Limerick. > Many > then joined the migration to the New World. Some of us think our > ancestors > were Scotch Irish and they were not: they were Palatines, so we're > looking > in the wrong end of Ireland for them. So check the list of surnames of > Palatines. Some are listed on the web here: > http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/canada/ontario/general/resources/101185 > .htm > > The names include Adamson, Baker, Bowen, Brown, etc -- names that > don't seem > German at all. The Limerick people began coming to the Americas in > large > numbers in 1709 -- before the Scotch Irish -- and they founded > American > Methodism. > > > Linda Merle > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It's interesting to encounter Palatines on this list. At one time our area had an active Palatines to America Chapter - I think centered in Columbus, OH (?) - with a group of it organized to meet in my home-town. By that time, although still very much feeling a product primarily of the UK - father descended from mostly Scottish and Scotch-Irish roots, I uncovered a lot of German on my Mother's side with a wee bit creeping in through marriage on my father's side - also I was studying German in college at that time - so I became a member. When the group here in town disbanded, I lost touch eventually with the main Chapter. By any chance does anyone know if this still exists as a national genealogical group? Janet Mc.

An excellent book on the 50,000+ Irish and Scots slaves sent to the Caribbean and Virginia between 1652 and 1659 is “To Hell or Barbados” (subtitled “The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland”) by Sean O’Callaghan. HB > From: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:51:28 -0500 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [S-I] Lecture: Desperation genealogy or What the Rest of Us Can Learn, , , , > > Linda, > I will attempt to add a little to the discussion. > > Many of our ancestors may have been desperately poor tenant farmers by the > time they emigrated, but that doesn't mean that they always were. They > could have been listed in books like the Palatine ones, or others. > > There is a book called "The Cromwellian Settlement of Ireland" by John P. > Prendergast (full text online through books.google.com) which is full of > lists of names of all sorts of people, including soldiers, "adventurers", > priests and people transplanted to Connaught. It is a very valuable book. > > Did you know how many young Irish people were shipped into slavery in the > West Indies? I found pages 428 and 429 fascinating on this subject. > > Ann Lamb > > > In a message dated 2/27/2010 3:39:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: > > They weren't transported to Connacht by Cromwell, so the transportee > records were no loss. Etc, etc. These records largely involved the upper class, > which our ancestors were not. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/

Linda, the URL did not work. Marsha On Feb 28, 2010, at 9:13 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Karen, no, that is not correct. Why not read the articles > included as URLs? They'll make it clear and contain a lot more info > than the articles. > > Read here: http://www.teskey.org/palhist.htm > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:58:31 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada > Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines > > I should know but I don't -- what does the word "palatine" refer to > in this > context please? I associate that word with Palestine - is that > related? > Thanks, > Karen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Virginia Beck" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:09 PM > Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines > > > Yes, Linda: When I was researching my husband's Palatine Nellis > family (who > landed in NY in 1710), I was contacted by a descendant of an Irish > 'O'Nellis' family. He had been certain the name was truly Irish, but > learning that it was a Palatine name planted a seed of doubt, and > indicated > the need for further research. Although we didn't maintain contact, > I feel > pretty sure the family was part of that mass exodus, and that at > least one > group of the Nellis family chose Ireland over any part of the "New > World". > > Pretty extensive records of the Palatine émigrés to this country > were kept. > Their story has been researched extensively, and a number of > excellent books > about them have been published. When their proposed job of supplying > pine > pitch for the British Navy proved unworkable (the trees were the > wrong kind > - a classic bureaucratic boo-boo), many left the camps where the > English had > housed them, "squatted" on land in the Mohawk Valley & eventually > gained > title to it. > > They were America's first large group of non-English speaking > immigrants and > their participation in earlier wars (Queen Anne's, 1812, French & > Indian) > greatly impacted events that led to the Revolution. While most of them > joined the colonists during the Revolution, some stayed loyal to the > English, and many Palatine names are also found in Canada. > > This era and these people are depicted in the movie "Drums Along the > Mohawk", starring Henry Fonda, whose ancestors WERE Palatines from > this > area. Fonda, Montgomery Co. NY was named for them. I found margin > notes > signed by a Fonda descendant in some of the books in the Montgomery > County > Heritage & Genealogical Society there - one was a correction of > information > about my husband's family. > Virginia > > -------------- > > . . . in looking for a second hand copy of "The Irish Palatines in > Ontario" > (and finding none, but the first edition is in the Family History > Library.....), I did find this lecture entitled "Desperation > genealogy or > What the Rest of Us Can Learn from Irish Family History Researchers" > > . . . if anyone is wondering what is a Palatine -- it is a group of > people > who lived in the Palatinate area of what is now Germany, > Protestants, who > migrated in the 1700s. Some went directly to the New World while > some went > to England and Ireland. At the time various Irish estate owners were > looking > for Protestant tenants. The largest number were settled in Limerick. > Many > then joined the migration to the New World. Some of us think our > ancestors > were Scotch Irish and they were not: they were Palatines, so we're > looking > in the wrong end of Ireland for them. So check the list of surnames of > Palatines. Some are listed on the web here: > http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/canada/ontario/general/resources/101185 > .htm > > The names include Adamson, Baker, Bowen, Brown, etc -- names that > don't seem > German at all. The Limerick people began coming to the Americas in > large > numbers in 1709 -- before the Scotch Irish -- and they founded > American > Methodism. > > > Linda Merle > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

I should know but I don't -- what does the word "palatine" refer to in this context please? I associate that word with Palestine - is that related? Thanks, Karen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Virginia Beck" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines Yes, Linda: When I was researching my husband's Palatine Nellis family (who landed in NY in 1710), I was contacted by a descendant of an Irish 'O'Nellis' family. He had been certain the name was truly Irish, but learning that it was a Palatine name planted a seed of doubt, and indicated the need for further research. Although we didn't maintain contact, I feel pretty sure the family was part of that mass exodus, and that at least one group of the Nellis family chose Ireland over any part of the "New World". Pretty extensive records of the Palatine émigrés to this country were kept. Their story has been researched extensively, and a number of excellent books about them have been published. When their proposed job of supplying pine pitch for the British Navy proved unworkable (the trees were the wrong kind - a classic bureaucratic boo-boo), many left the camps where the English had housed them, "squatted" on land in the Mohawk Valley & eventually gained title to it. They were America's first large group of non-English speaking immigrants and their participation in earlier wars (Queen Anne's, 1812, French & Indian) greatly impacted events that led to the Revolution. While most of them joined the colonists during the Revolution, some stayed loyal to the English, and many Palatine names are also found in Canada. This era and these people are depicted in the movie "Drums Along the Mohawk", starring Henry Fonda, whose ancestors WERE Palatines from this area. Fonda, Montgomery Co. NY was named for them. I found margin notes signed by a Fonda descendant in some of the books in the Montgomery County Heritage & Genealogical Society there - one was a correction of information about my husband's family. Virginia -------------- . . . in looking for a second hand copy of "The Irish Palatines in Ontario" (and finding none, but the first edition is in the Family History Library.....), I did find this lecture entitled "Desperation genealogy or What the Rest of Us Can Learn from Irish Family History Researchers" . . . if anyone is wondering what is a Palatine -- it is a group of people who lived in the Palatinate area of what is now Germany, Protestants, who migrated in the 1700s. Some went directly to the New World while some went to England and Ireland. At the time various Irish estate owners were looking for Protestant tenants. The largest number were settled in Limerick. Many then joined the migration to the New World. Some of us think our ancestors were Scotch Irish and they were not: they were Palatines, so we're looking in the wrong end of Ireland for them. So check the list of surnames of Palatines. Some are listed on the web here: http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/canada/ontario/general/resources/101185 .htm The names include Adamson, Baker, Bowen, Brown, etc -- names that don't seem German at all. The Limerick people began coming to the Americas in large numbers in 1709 -- before the Scotch Irish -- and they founded American Methodism. Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Connie, have you checked the books? Our opinions are hardly worth a cent -- but the opinion of a scholar who has studied the matter and written a book on it is much more interesting. You have to remember too that these categories are not 'disjoint' and they often come with a political meaning besides an ethnic. Germany didn't gel as a country till the mid 1800s or later (can't recall offhand). It was a group of small principalities. You have areas too in Europea that had sizable groups of French speakers and also people who spoke Walloon or German. Some of these areas changed hands like the phases of the moon. One week they were French and the next a part of a German kingdom. Napoleon in the early 1800s conquered his way through this area and united the Germans for the first time. What's a Palatine? If you read a few books (and you should if you are interested in this topic -- you can read some free ones at google books). It's a Protestant from the Palatinate. Check a map. This area was resettled by people from other areas. "Germany" endured several wars that destroyed much of its populace and after the Thirty Years War, these depopulated areas were resettled. What I'm saying to you is that the people who became known as the Palatinates hadn't lived in the Palatine for long-- as a group. Individual cases might vary. Their surnames show a lot of different roots including some probably French -- from the 'debatable lands' of Europe -- some of the people there were of French ethnicity and some German, Waloon, etc. What is a Huguenot? A French Protestant; however generally they were forced to go to England earlier. They are (and here's the political part) people persecuted for being Protestant. Many were middle class or higher. They actually came in two waves of persecution, earlier in the 1500s and early 1600s. It is very possible that some French speaking Protestants lived in areas of Europe where they were not forced to flee and later left as part of the Palatine migration. So what I am saying is the two categories are not disjoint. They overlap or well could overlap. You need to find a copy of Falley "Irish and Scotch Irish Family Research" and read the chapters on these people so you are familiar with them and their records and you can figure out which yours are. If you are still try ing to get east of the Alleghenies, this is for amusement purposes only. It is axiomatic in genealogy that you work from the present to the past. You need to gather clues. If you don't know where or when your ancestors can to America, you have no data to begin assessing where they were before or what their prior ethnicity was. But of course you will do this any way because you are normal like the rest of us!! It's a no-brainer to figure out who these two groups were. That's because (as I learned in Falley, the Bible of Irish genealogy) they were settled by the government. They became English subjects by acts of Parliament. Their names are in the parliamentary records. Furthermore, these names are collected and well known and documented in books and websites. You may have issues with trying to prove you descend from a particular man who became a British subject by an act of Parliament, but that this man was naturalized -- like I said, that's a no brainer. We just got to look them up in the right places. There are societies that study the history of both groups, manned by scholars who have studied them for long period of times. The opinions of these people are much more interesting than yours or mine. It's like asking the foot doctor for an opinion on your brain tumor. It ain't the guy's specialty. If you seriously want your brain tumor to go away, find a brain surgeon, not a foot doctor. We're, alas, not even foot doctors. It's more like asking the janitor to ask us. We are not scholars. The most we can do is point you to some books written by scholars. Focus on getting them over the Alleghenies. Lar'ge is not a French usage of the '. Here you might be running into something thing that you encounter in Ireland, though not generally in Ulster. Someone was trying to construct for himself a Norman past, which he may or not have in reality. DNA will tell the truth. The case that comes to mind is the D'Altons of Limerick. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Connie Dankesreiter" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 8:48:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatine History Do you think the name Large or Lar'ge is Palatine rather than Hugenot? I'm trying to trace my mothers family of Larges from Ohio and Illinois back from 1850 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 8:38 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [S-I] Palatine History Hi folks, in exploring today's free Global Genealogy newsletter, it announced a book "The Irish Palatines in Ontario: Religion, Ethnicity, and Rural Migration - Second Edition By Carolyn A. Heald. Published by Global Heritage Press. This new book provides a broad history of the Palatines in Ontario, where they came from, where they settled, and what characterized their communities. It is not a catalogue of every Irish Palatine who settled in Ontario. However, the book does contain lists of individuals and many references to specific persons and families. In this new second edition of The Irish Palatines in Ontario the author has corrected known errors from the original 1994 edition and added a completely new chapter on Barbara Heck and the Loyalist Palatines plus other refinements and new material. " http://www.globalgenealogy.com/countries/ireland/ I then found a website: http://www.irishpalatines.org/ and a free book: http://www.irishpalatines.org/about/history.html The story of the Palatines: An episode in colonial history book now in zotero. Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Virginia, My husband descends fro the Nellesin/Nelles family.  In our research have determined they were French Huguenots who came down the Rhine River.  Its interesting to me that you think some may have gone to Ireland.  Are you thinking that this happened when the Queen shipped several thousand people out of the Palatinate?  I have never heard this. Thank You Judy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Virginia Beck" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 3:09:10 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [S-I] Palatines Yes, Linda:  When I was researching my husband's Palatine Nellis family (who landed in NY in 1710), I was contacted by a descendant of an Irish 'O'Nellis' family. He had been certain the name was truly Irish, but learning that it was a Palatine name planted a seed of doubt, and indicated the need for further research. Although we didn't maintain contact, I feel pretty sure the family was part of that mass exodus, and that at least one group of the Nellis family chose Ireland over any part of the "New World".   Pretty extensive records of the Palatine émigrés to this country were kept. Their story has been researched extensively, and a number of excellent books about them have been published. When their proposed job of supplying pine pitch for the British Navy proved unworkable (the trees were the wrong kind - a classic bureaucratic boo-boo), many left the camps where the English had housed them, "squatted" on land in the Mohawk Valley & eventually gained title to it. They were America's first large group of non-English speaking immigrants and their participation in earlier wars (Queen Anne's, 1812, French & Indian) greatly impacted events that led to the Revolution. While most of them joined the colonists during the Revolution, some stayed loyal to the English, and many Palatine names are also found in Canada. This era and these people are depicted in the movie "Drums Along the Mohawk", starring Henry Fonda, whose ancestors WERE Palatines from this area. Fonda, Montgomery Co. NY was named for them. I found margin notes signed by a Fonda descendant in some of the books in the Montgomery County Heritage & Genealogical Society there - one was a correction of information about my husband's family. Virginia -------------- . . . in looking for a second hand copy of "The Irish Palatines in Ontario" (and finding none, but the first edition is in the Family History Library.....), I did find this lecture entitled "Desperation genealogy or What the Rest of Us Can Learn from Irish Family History Researchers" . . . if anyone is wondering what is a Palatine -- it is a group of people who lived in the Palatinate area of what is now Germany, Protestants, who migrated in the 1700s. Some went directly to the New World while some went to England and Ireland. At the time various Irish estate owners were looking for Protestant tenants. The largest number were settled in Limerick. Many then joined the migration to the New World. Some of us think our ancestors were Scotch Irish and they were not: they were Palatines, so we're looking in the wrong end of Ireland for them. So check the list of surnames of Palatines. Some are listed on the web here: http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/canada/ontario/general/resources/101185 .htm The names include Adamson, Baker, Bowen, Brown, etc -- names that don't seem German at all. The Limerick people began coming to the Americas in large numbers in 1709 -- before the Scotch Irish -- and they founded American Methodism. Linda Merle   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message