Thanks so much, Linda! I'm watching it now and it is really interesting! Linda A ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 2:37 PM Subject: [S-I] Who Do You Think You Are (American Version) > Hi folks, the first episode of this show aired Friday night. Nothing > Scotch Irish came up but I am curious how people found it who watched? > > You can watch it at Hulu if you missed it and have broadband: > http://www.hulu.com/who-do-you-think-you-are > > Anyone know if the British show is on line free anywhere??? > > I watched it and enjoyed. I had attempted to watch the PBS show but found > it rather slow paced. > > Linda Merle > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I didn't watch the new show, but did watch the PBS "Faces of America" show. I thought it was interesting and lovely to have somebody do the work for you BUT...I think that picking just one famous ancestor out of hundreds or thousands (depending on how many generations somebody goes back) is kind of silly. For every king, queen, statesman, founder of our country, we had hundred and thousands of equally important (in our genealogy, anyway) ancestors that, of course, we never research. It's a lot of fun for us to see from whom celebrities are descended, but I think on those shows they should point out that probably anybody, with enough research, could find royalty, celebrity, and criminals in our genealogy. Also, darn it! they make it look so easy! And we know that is not really how it happens for most people. Maybe I am feeling grouchy because all of my discoveries have come only with a lot of hard work. Hi, Linda...spring must have sprung in PA as it seems to be here in NH where it's about 65 in the sun! Snow is melting as fast as can be, bulbs are poking up and the snowdrops are blooming. We'll see a crocus next week at this rate. But of course, in NH, it will probably snow at least once or twice more. Too bad...most people just got the fallen trees out of the roads and got their power back on. But for today, anyway, a good sign that winter will soon be a memory (I hope...knock wood). Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Who Do You Think You Are (American Version) >I have watched and enjoyed BOTH shows. I learned from the Meryl Streep > family history on Faces of America that she and I are cousins. The best > part of > both shows is that they show the new researcher where to start and how to > proceed to actually do research. They also show everyone how average > people > (not just famous historical figures) played a role in historical events > and give people a better perspective that brings history alive. > > Joan > > > In a message dated 3/6/2010 2:37:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hi folks, the first episode of this show aired Friday night. Nothing > Scotch Irish came up but I am curious how people found it who watched? > > You can watch it at Hulu if you missed it and have broadband: > http://www.hulu.com/who-do-you-think-you-are > > Anyone know if the British show is on line free anywhere??? > > I watched it and enjoyed. I had attempted to watch the PBS show but found > it rather slow paced. > > Linda Merle > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have watched and enjoyed BOTH shows. I learned from the Meryl Streep family history on Faces of America that she and I are cousins. The best part of both shows is that they show the new researcher where to start and how to proceed to actually do research. They also show everyone how average people (not just famous historical figures) played a role in historical events and give people a better perspective that brings history alive. Joan In a message dated 3/6/2010 2:37:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi folks, the first episode of this show aired Friday night. Nothing Scotch Irish came up but I am curious how people found it who watched? You can watch it at Hulu if you missed it and have broadband: http://www.hulu.com/who-do-you-think-you-are Anyone know if the British show is on line free anywhere??? I watched it and enjoyed. I had attempted to watch the PBS show but found it rather slow paced. Linda Merle

Linda, I agree with Ann, and I am sure that we can help you find things to do, even a restaurant or two. I know of several that have great North West salmon. [smile] [ evilgrin] Or any other type of food that you may want. Thanks, David C Abernathy Email disclaimers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message represents the official view of the voices in my head. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.SchmeckAbernathy.com == All outgoing and incoming mail is scanned by F-Prot Antivirus  == -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 9:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47 Dear Linda, Have you considered that this might be a great time for you to take a research trip to the Seattle area? After all, we are in full springtime, with temp in the low 60s today, every fruit tree, forsythia, magnolia, azalea, and daffodil in full bloom. We have a National Archives branch, the Fiske Genealogical Library and excellent collections in several other libraries. No snow this winter. Ann Lamb In a message dated 3/6/2010 12:32:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] Hi folks, yesterday the roof on my elementary school went to roof-heaven. It had become a church, so no one was in it, thankfully. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/weather/22739504/detail.html http://www.wpxi.com/news/22739347/detail.html And the winter continues... Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Linda, I did watch it. I wonder how many people and for how long did the research. It kind of let be known, all one needs to do is walk in and someone will find your family for you. But overall was a good show. Thanks, David C Abernathy Email disclaimers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This message represents the official view of the voices in my head. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.SchmeckAbernathy.com == All outgoing and incoming mail is scanned by F-Prot Antivirus  == -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 11:37 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [S-I] Who Do You Think You Are (American Version) Hi folks, the first episode of this show aired Friday night. Nothing Scotch Irish came up but I am curious how people found it who watched? You can watch it at Hulu if you missed it and have broadband: http://www.hulu.com/who-do-you-think-you-are Anyone know if the British show is on line free anywhere??? I watched it and enjoyed. I had attempted to watch the PBS show but found it rather slow paced. Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It was very different from the PBS show Faces of America. Personally, I enjoyed both shows, but preferred Faces of America. I think the slow-paced progress on Faces of America, seemed much more realistic to me. Someone who has done a lot of research was taking care of that part of it (with a lot of help, too) and presenting what was found to the various celebrities who knew nothing about researching. Who Do You Think You Are? was entertaining and I'll continue to watch it. But for someone like me it was also a bit irritating to be shown a celebrity who hasn't a clue about their ancestry and knows nothing of research, going off in various directions and at every turn being presented with *documentation* that just happens to be available and close at hand. It doesn't happen that way ... but it is entertaining. Miracles are rare. The only one I've experienced in 30 years was receiving a bible transcription by email from someone researching the surname but unfamiliar with the names on the page, and finding three generations of my family detailed, middle names,dates of births, marriages and deaths of the oldest - the last entry being the birth of my great grandmother. I think my good luck was spent in that one event. On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi folks, the first episode of this show aired Friday night. Nothing Scotch > Irish came up but I am curious how people found it who watched? > > You can watch it at Hulu if you missed it and have broadband: > http://www.hulu.com/who-do-you-think-you-are > > Anyone know if the British show is on line free anywhere??? > > I watched it and enjoyed. I had attempted to watch the PBS show but found > it rather slow paced. > > Linda Merle > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I enjoyed both but found PBS more realistic--NBC was too Hollywood but I'm sure it will send a lot scampering to ancestry,com etc. only to be disappointed when they don't strike GOLD immediately. My ancestors trudged thru a lot of history -- most in the revolution --2 in the Civil War--Only royal connection was adulterous and I did learn that g- grandfather really did bite off a man's thumb in a fight. I had to dig for some of it --but got a lot of help from Surname and County lists. Long Live Lists!!! Carolyn Mills Hughes > [Original Message] > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Date: 3/6/2010 11:37:05 AM > Subject: [S-I] Who Do You Think You Are (American Version) > > Hi folks, the first episode of this show aired Friday night. Nothing Scotch Irish came up but I am curious how people found it who watched? > > You can watch it at Hulu if you missed it and have broadband: > http://www.hulu.com/who-do-you-think-you-are > > Anyone know if the British show is on line free anywhere??? > > I watched it and enjoyed. I had attempted to watch the PBS show but found it rather slow paced. > > Linda Merle > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Linda, Have you considered that this might be a great time for you to take a research trip to the Seattle area? After all, we are in full springtime, with temp in the low 60s today, every fruit tree, forsythia, magnolia, azalea, and daffodil in full bloom. We have a National Archives branch, the Fiske Genealogical Library and excellent collections in several other libraries. No snow this winter. Ann Lamb In a message dated 3/6/2010 12:32:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] Hi folks, yesterday the roof on my elementary school went to roof-heaven. It had become a church, so no one was in it, thankfully. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/weather/22739504/detail.html http://www.wpxi.com/news/22739347/detail.html And the winter continues... Linda Merle

I found it interesting, also the availability of records was nice. The best part was having someone to do the legwork for you !!!  Linda Dolan ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, March 6, 2010 1:37:05 PM Subject: [S-I] Who Do You Think You Are (American Version) Hi folks, the first episode of this show aired Friday night. Nothing Scotch Irish came up but I am curious how people found it who watched? You can watch it at Hulu if you missed it and have broadband: http://www.hulu.com/who-do-you-think-you-are Anyone know if the British show is on line free anywhere??? I watched it and enjoyed. I had attempted to watch the PBS show but found it rather slow paced. Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi folks, yesterday the roof on my elementary school went to roof-heaven. It had become a church, so no one was in it, thankfully. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/weather/22739504/detail.html http://www.wpxi.com/news/22739347/detail.html And the winter continues... Linda Merle

This is a very interesting project which, if done without bias, may shed light on actual historical events rather than add to the flame of the diametrically opposed versions of that history still being propagated by both sides in the fray. Please keep us in the loop about the results! (Any chance that an index of names and dates in the records will be made available?) Thanks, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:17 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [S-I] More on 1641 Depositions Please note there are three separate news stories here, each adding a different dimension.

Please note there are three separate news stories here, each adding a different dimension. Nelson's View - The Minister's Pen Nelson McCausland MLA - Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure - Northern Ireland (Democratic Unionist Party). A personal blog hopefully giving an insight into my time as Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure. Wednesday, 3 March 2010 1641 Massacre _http://theministershttp://theminhttp://thhttp://theministhttp://thehttp://t heministht&utm_medium=twitter_ (http://theministerspen.blogspot.com/2010/03/1641-massacre.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter) Academics from the University of Aberdeen have been given a £334,000 grant to examine the depositions of English and Scottish settlers about the masscre of Protestants in Ulster in 1641. The 4,000 depositions are held in Trinity College Dublin and describe the events of that terrible time. The historians will use cutting-edge software to examine and cross-reference names, places, words and phrases in an effort to establish just how many people were murdered. The most recent estimates put the figure at between 4,000 and 12,000. There can be no doubt that the Irish rebels had a sectarian motivation. Writing on 7 December 1641 Father Hugh Bourke, at that time commisary of the Irish Friars Minor in Germany and Belgium, admitted that the war was ‘ begun solely in the interest of the Catholic and Roman religion’. [Jesuit Plots p 163; Report on Franciscan Manuscripts, Command Paper 2867, HMSO 1906] Indeed the fact that this was a Roman Catholic rebellion against Protestantism was acknowledged by the Jesuit writer Oliver P Rafferty in his history of Roman Catholicism in Ulster: 'The bloody Ulster uprising of 1641 ... represented ... a spontaneous outpouring of hatred against Protestantism and all it stood for.' [Catholicism in Ulster 1603-1983 p 1] But what was the extent of the massacre? In the past there were grossly exaggerated figures but even if it were only 4,000 or 12,000 people it was still a dreadful massacre and left a dreadful legacy of hatred and fear. Even the lower figure of 4,000 is greater than the number of people killed in the recent Troubles in Northern Ireland and yet the killing happened at a time when the Protestant population of Ulster was much smaller, around 100,000. Furthermore it happened in a much shorter period and in addition to those who were murdered, many others died as a result of ill treatment and deprivation. The respected Ulster historian Dr A T Q Stewart once said that ’The 1641 rebellion is perhaps the most important episode in the history of Ulster since the plantation, yet it is one of the least discussed.’ Perhaps this new research will help to focus attention on that 'important episode'. The massacre certainly had an important place in the history of the Ulster-Scots and not just because of its impact on the relationship between the Scottish settlers and the native Irish, who were Roman Catholics. It also led to the arrival of a Scottish army in Ulster in April 1642 to protect the Scottish settlers and on 10 June the chaplains of the Scottish army formed their own presbytery. This was the start of organised Presbyterianism in Ulster and it became the General Synod of Ulster. ------------- Experts explore 1641 Irish slayings of Protestants _http://www.google.http://www.googhttp://www.http://wwhttp://www.googlhttp:/ /www.googlht_ (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jp_CUCsImf_nVQcGu1VWZqH_Ag3gD9E6K4K00) By SHAWN POGATCHNIK (AP) – 1 day ago DUBLIN — One of the most divisive and hotly disputed events in Irish history — the 1641 killings of thousands of Protestant settlers by Catholic natives — is to be examined in forensic detail for the first time, researchers said Tuesday. The scale of the bloodshed left communal scars for centuries. Protestants cited it as their basis for fearing and oppressing the natives, while Catholics insisted the historical record was grossly exaggerated to justify subsequent British repression in Ireland. Now, scholars from Aberdeen University in Scotland and Trinity College Dublin will analyze and seek patterns in 20,000 pages of statements from 4,000 witnesses. The 1642-1655 documents, stored in Trinity's historical archives since the 1740s, have been converted over the past two years into digital form. Researchers now plan to dissect the language used and references to assailants, with the goal of separating truth from fiction and facts from artistic license. The lead researcher, Aberdeen language and linguistics expert Barbara Farrell, said the scale of the 1641 slaughter was cited as justification for when the English army of Oliver Cromwell invaded Ireland in the 1650s and killed natives without mercy. English parliamentary documents of the time claimed more than 200,000 Protestants had been killed but Farrell said the most reliable estimate today is that at least 4,000 died. Farrell said the research would determine whether survivor accounts written down by Cromwell's fact-finders were accurate, exaggerated or outright lies. She expressed confidence in finding evidence of the "manipulation" of some figures and events. The 1641 rebellion presaged the English Civil War and the rise of Cromwell. Catholics broadly loyal to the Catholic-sympathetiThe 1641 rebellion presaged the English Civil War and the rise of Cromwell. Catholics broadly loyal to the Catholic-sympatheti<WBR>c king of England, Charles I, seized power in Ireland — Protestants in modern-day Northern Ireland continue to cite the legacy of the 1641 massacre as a foundation for their resistance to Irish Catholic rule. Modern parade banners of the Orange Order, the major Protestant brotherhood, depict the 1641 violence as the attempted genocide of Ireland's Protestants. --------------- 1641 massacre accounts examined _http://news.http://newhttp://news.<Whttp://news.<WBRhtt_ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8545972.stm) Woodcutting of massacre Up to 12,000 Protestants are thought to have been killed in the massacres A group of academics has been tasked to reinvestigate a centuries-old massacre of Protestants in Ireland. University language experts have been given a grant of £334,000 to pore over thousands of witness accounts of massacres following the 1641 rebellion. The Protestant death toll was most recently put at between 4,000 and 12,000, mainly in Ulster. However, there have been allegations that accounts of the killings were exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Four thousand depositions corresponding to about 20,000 pages which have been locked away in Trinity College Dublin (TCD) since 1741, have been transcribed into digital format over the past two years. The research team will use IBM technology, known as "dirty text" analysis software, to examine and cross-reference names, places, words and phrases. This will give us an insight into who allegedly did what to who, and then it will allow us to investigate the reliability of the evidence Dr Barbara Fennell Dr Barbara Fennell, senior language and linguistics lecturer at the University of Aberdeen, who will lead the project, said they expect to prove within a year whether witness statements were genuine or overstated by commissioners working for Oliver Cromwell. "It is important to remember that these depositions are mediated by the commissioner who wrote them down so there is inevitably manipulation of the descriptions,"It is import "That's what we are investigating, and given that it was such a sensitive time, and given what Cromwell did later in exaggerating it all, I think we have a really interesting tool here to see if there has been that kind of manipulation." Dr Fennell said the next stage of the project would allow them to profile persons alleged to have carried out certain atrocities and map where they were supposed to have happened. The academics will then use "forensic linguistics" to test the reliability of the reports, based on the wording, phrases and the veracity of the commissioners who took it down. "This will give us an insight into who allegedly did what to who, and then it will allow us to investigate the reliability of the evidence," Dr Fennell said. __._,_.___

Richard, Thank you for forwarding a wonderfully succinct description of 1641. Also, I recently enjoyed reading your book: "Scotch-Irish Merchants in Colonial America". It contained lots of references to families that I am following. I now have 6,700 people included in my family tree (link beneath) many of them related to Scotch-Irish. As I get new sources and correct old errors, I update the tree. The roots of it are sinking into more solid earth on a daily basis. Same with my web site. Again, thanks, Sharon Oddie Brown Roberts Creek, BC, Canada History Project: http://www.thesilverbowl.com/ Some Become Flowers: http://www.harbourpublishing.com/title/SomeBecomeFlowers Family Tree: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=silverbowl

Hi Michael, I believe the estimate is Leyburns. I did an article for a magazine a few years ago....trying to recall where I got the material, I am pretty sure Leyburn. I have read (but forget where -- if I kept notes in Zotero I could find it!) that some areas are believed to be 95% Ulster immigrants. It varies. One would like to say 'varies from town to town' but the highlands of Virginia weren't settled by town. People stacked out some land and built a house on it. So there weren't really a lot of early towns. This light, rural settlement also apparently impeded the founding of churches and encouraged circuit riders. Also made it difficult for the flatlanders to gain control: ie where do you build the county courthouse and construct the Anglican parish church that everyone must attend? But usually 'infrastructure' followed settlement in America, so nothing new there. However I am not finding it so I will check Bernard Bailyn, The Peopling of British North America. The areas would be the "Irish tracts" in the Valley of Virginia, like Berkeley's, the Gooch Grants, Borden Tract. I will continue looking. The usual way that people estimate these things, esp. Leyburn, is surnames. Leyburn admits this can be tricky especially with Germans settling in and anglicizing their surnames. Some day we will have better stats with DNA. An eyeballing of the Cumberland Gap DNA project shows a lot of NW Irish DNA -- supporting Kerby's theory that Donegal lost much of its native population in the 1700s. Linda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Montgomery Michael" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 1, 2010 8:43:11 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 13 Hello Linda Your recent exposition, with many links, on indentured servants is a posting to be kept, and I have printed it off and put it securely into my box of "indentured servant" materials. One statement that you made in particular caught my eye, which is about the estimate of 90% of the early settlers in some parts of Virginia being from Ulster. You say "it is estimated," but by whom? I cannot use this information without a source. Is it from Leyburn? And which parts of Virginia? Michael --- On Wed, 2/3/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 13 To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, February 3, 2010, 3:01 AM Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:57:51 +0000 (UTC) From: [email protected] Subject: [S-I] Indentured Servants To: List <[email protected]> Message-ID: Hi folks, I am forwarding on the URL for this website although it does not directly relate to the so-called "Scotch-Irish" who supposedly evacuated from Ulster, not London. My reasons are that so many came over that they dominated an area of the Americans that is roughly the size of Europe. We call this area today, roughly, "Appalachia". What this dominance means, according to the books I've read, such as Leyburn's "The Scotch-Irish", is that their culture predominated. We are all familiar with cultural dominance. It is like when anyone comes here: the immigrant generation talks funny, dresses funny, has funny customs, eats funny food, but the children are indistinguishable from children 'born here' to native Americans -- they eat American food, they talk American, they dress American, they have American values, etc. The same works for migrants to Australia, England, France, Mongolia....where-ever. Small groups or families moving into a larger culture tend to assimilate into the large!. So while there are areas of Virginia where it is estimated 90% of the early settlers originated in Ulster, there is the 10%. And in some areas the percentage is believed to be much higher. But they all became "Scotch-Irish", which is actually the name of an American ethnic group, not an Ulster one.... ... Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Also see an old book that is free in Google: "Cromwell in Ireland: a history of Cromwell's Irish campaign" By Denis Murphy It includes some amusing tidbits including one describing Monroe's army in Ulster as a Royalist army. Of course, for a time, it was, as the parties of the Civil War changed. The Scots couldn't stand by Parliament after it murdered King Charles (actually many parties deserted it in horror after that). In any case I've skimmed some of it and it gives the usual blow by blow accounting of incompetance and betrayal of all by all. Just what we need to read at the end of a horrible winter <grin>. I also have Celtic Dimensions of the British Civil Wars : John R. Young, University of Strathclyde (Book, 1997). It has a series of essays that view the period from the Scottish and Irish point of view and often giving a refreshing look from a new angle. One article comparies Irish tories and Scottish moss troopers. Much on the Scottish Covenanters (as a political entity). Here we often view Scotland as a vast 'lowland' -- ie a place where everyone held th e same views as ourselves. Actually, it was much more complex. Some essays compare the Jacobite Scots who went off in exile to fight in the armies of the French and Spanish to their Irish cousins who did the same earlier. Reading "Cromwell in Ireland" and other books also helped me to understand that the motivation wasn't just oppressing Irish . No, it was the danger posed by the European parties that the Irish allied themselves with that posed the real threat to England -- the Pope and the French. This was neither the first or the last time. England was always being invaded from Ireland or fearing invasion from her. A very long term English paranoia, justified in this case. Just as after the death of King Charles all of Ireland (meaning all the Anglo Irish and Irish nobility) came out for King Charles, several times during the Wars of Roses in the 1400s, various dethroned or would be kings raised armies or mobs in Ireland and came ashore in England. The native Irish posed far less a threat than did their leaders. That is one threat Cromwell ended for good. He does seem to have permanently destroyed the old leadership. Some of them (according to O'Callaghan) were shipped off to the West Indies) while the rest, we know, were exiled to the west. He accesses court records and give specific names of Irish Confeds sent to the West Indies -- hard to argue with his evidence. Many of the records of those exiled are preserved in O'Hart "Irish Pedigrees". Vol 2 here: Irish pedigrees: or, The origin and stem of the Irish nation, Volume 2 (books.google.com). Vol 1 is there too. I just found "The family history of Hart of Donegal" By Henry Travers Hart in google books! Put into Zotero ..... Oo! I have just found a preview in Google of " Scotland and the Thirty Years' War, 1618-1648" By Steve Murdoch These kinds of books often have little on Ulster Scots families (meaning O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees), but sometimes you are surprised -- though rarely, I admit -- to learn the famly may not be Scots at all. Then you can find much much more. No wonder I get nothing done... Linda Merle

A very good book on the Reformation in a European Context. It is tied into the Calvin Celebrations "Reformation, the Dangerous Birth of the Modern World" Harry Reid. Edinburgh 2009 ISBN 978 0 7152 0871 7 Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 2:36 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [S-I] Oops book with records on Cromwell in Ireland > > Hi, I misspoke. I have Barnard's "Cromwellian Ireland: > English Government and Reform in Ireland 1649-1600". Very > dull book with great bibliography. > > In looking for readible renditions of the Reformation, I have > "The Reformation" by Owen Chadwick. which discusses the > European forum (ie where the Reformation took place), not the > specific English, though it includes it in a lot of detail. > All too often we forget we are Europeans, not just Brits, and > that the only way to make sense of things is the proper > historical context. This is particularly true of the > so-called "Glorious Revolution" (which was not so glorious > for Ireland and a great disappointment to our own ancestors > who were not awarded freedom of religion for their role in > it). There was actually a real war being fought in Europe at > the time and the battles in Ireland were a part of it. While > Queen Anne was inviting in German Lutherans (Palatines) and > forcing them to become Anglicans (or she'd hand them back), > she was trying to force our ancestors into the Anglican fold > as well. She had less success with them! > > Linda Merle > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

His own didn't disavow him. This is post a Civil War, the Cromwellian system couldn't be made to work permanently and people felt that the return of the Stuarts was a good thing. Generally they were quite wise and only went for the "Regicides" and those who would not fall in line on say the religious settlement. It was the returned Caviller party which insulted Cromwell. His own were generally keeping very quirt and their heads down. The Cromwellian plantation of Ireland is tied in with the fact that he had to borrow to finance his war and he used Ireland to repay those who had leant (I think without checking my sources on a 40 year old memory, Edward Andrews > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Henry Barth > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 7:35 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [S-I] "Irish in the Caribbean" > > > Anyone interested in the Cromwell-inspired genocide in > Ireland might also read: > > > > "Hell or Connaught!: The Cromwellian Colonization of Ireland, > 1652-1660" > by Peter Berresford Ellis (1975) > > > > But the Irish weren't the ones who dug up his body in > Westminster, gave it a posthumous execution for regicide in > 1661, cut off the corpse's head and hung it on a pole outside > Westminister for 25 years. > > > > His own disavowed him for being a religious zealot, a > hypocrite and a mass-murderer. > > > > > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:33:52 -0500 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [S-I] "Irish in the Caribbean" > > > > A supplement, not an argument: > > > > Someone here has a tagline about "The past is another > country. They do > > things differently there". > > > > When you read a lot of history, after a while you get over > ascribing > > nasty and nefarious motives to people in a far different > time, because > > you have learned how different the environment, the threats to > > security, the world they lived in, was. > > > > We live in a world where lots of people keep pets and think > of it as > > normal and a pleasant part of life. But there are people elsewhere > > (Sweden, I > > think) who consider keeping pets as we think of slavery, an offence > > against nature and morality. > > > > I am trying to keep that in mind; however it is a struggle, when I > > consider what I know about what Cromwell and his minions, > did to the > > people of Ireland - because he won, and because he had the > guns and swords. > > > > Ann L. > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/1/2010 12:16:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > > [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: > > > > Well, I did read the book including the footnotes and > glanced through > > his bibliography. The book is definitely part of the anti-English > > polemic that the Irish are so fond of, but that doesn't mean it is > > wrong. Another person could of course re-shuffle the same data and > > come up with a different conclusion and on and on -- fodder > for future > > dissertations and books > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Donna, Thank you for the great background material. I, too, hail from a couple of such groups. My McKinneys arrived in the U.S. from Donegal and Derry in 1822, coming through Baltimore to settle in Braddock near other McKinneys lost in time. One of them married into the West family which had some of their maternal roots in the McComas's (Maccomas's, and many other spellings) from deep southwestern Pa. and West Virginia. The German side of my family, the Hoffmans, were also already here in western Pa. when we got here. Quite a mishmash, but quite a history as well. As for the Catholics, we came over as Presbyterians and, a couple generations ago, my line was prompted by the Wests to convert, as they had, to Catholicism -- and not without rifts. Learned about the English language problem decades ago in a linguistics class I took and it's still fascinating. These "hillbillys" spoke English closer to that which was spoken in merry ol' 18th century England than we do today. Ah, and the whiskey. The son of my fourth g-grandfather is quoted in the History of Washington County, Pa., as saying at one time in his life he "could stand on the hill where his father's arm lay and see the smoke from nineteen distilleries in active operation." And not too many "revenooers" messed with them. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you I appreciated your post. It's good to be mindful of the history that goes with the names in our genealogy. Bill McKinney Erie -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donna Nichols Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:56 AM To: Scotch-Irish list Subject: [?? Probable Spam] [S-I] Indentured, Scotch-Irish, Appalachia, and other stuff Facts about Appalachia...where I lived and taught for quite a while, where my husband's family came..in the 1700's and established towns, (literally), and where I have been pretty well acclimated and accepted in. The Appalachia region was settled by two major groups...

Hi, I misspoke. I have Barnard's "Cromwellian Ireland: English Government and Reform in Ireland 1649-1600". Very dull book with great bibliography. In looking for readible renditions of the Reformation, I have "The Reformation" by Owen Chadwick. which discusses the European forum (ie where the Reformation took place), not the specific English, though it includes it in a lot of detail. All too often we forget we are Europeans, not just Brits, and that the only way to make sense of things is the proper historical context. This is particularly true of the so-called "Glorious Revolution" (which was not so glorious for Ireland and a great disappointment to our own ancestors who were not awarded freedom of religion for their role in it). There was actually a real war being fought in Europe at the time and the battles in Ireland were a part of it. While Queen Anne was inviting in German Lutherans (Palatines) and forcing them to become Anglicans (or she'd hand them back), she was trying to force our ancestors into the Anglican fold as well. She had less success with them! Linda Merle

Actually, books like "Hell or Connaught" as already mentioned, are only one side of the story -- and the side of the people who tried to kill your ancestors. You've been brainwashed by your old enemies if you think they present a fair view. Perhaps you should do some additional reading and then try to reconcile the view points. May I suggest "Cromwell, An Honourable Enemy" by Tom Reilly (also a source of great controversy since he has dared to look at things with a fresh view instead of parading about the same old hatred sans any facts or data), "God's Englishman" by Christopher Hill, "The Century of Revolution 1603-1704", Christopher Hill, also his book "Liberty Against the Law: Some Seventeenth Century Controversies", and "Cromwell in Ireland" by James Scott Wheeler. For starters. Then you may come to realize any number of things including: 1. Cromwell was a moderate (hard to believe till you actually read more than one of these books) and he worked to maintain stability in England, often it appears at the exense of everyone else. Unfortunately he sent the extremists off to Ireland in the hopes that their energies could be put to productive use (it was) and dispersed. This of course led to very bad results for Ireland. 2. History has not been written by his supporters (nor that of the Irish), but by the enemies of both, which is why Cromwell has been demonized (as well as his grave desecrated), as have been the Irish and even your own supposed "Ulster Scot" ancestors (crude, orange, mean as can be -- especially to the American Indians). To get a clear understanding of the period requires a lot of research and the reading of more than one book. 3. The Irish propaganda machine often trumps the British, especially among those who think reading one or two books in one or two traditions, preferably soft cover. I am no great reader but I have read these books and a few more whose names I forget right now. If nothing else I've learned it's a very complex time and Cromwell a very complex character and his historic portrayal is historically inaccurate because his enemies wrote it. So you are also being brainwashed by the Restoration government and its heirs. As we speak actual scholars (or at least pimply faced grad students) who have actually studied this material in both Dublin and in the UK are attempting to reframe it all in a way that makes sense. Who is right? We'll never know, though we can realize it is complex. Each writer throws things into a new perspective, like a multi faceted gem. It's actually a complex and to get a full view you need to examine more than one facet. What we do know is that Cromwell saved the posteriors of your ancestors and, if it weren't for him, you'd be saving money today to buy lots of green beer for St. Patricks Day. Ie, if enough of your ancestors survived the 1650s to produce you, they'd have been assimilated into the vast Irish nation by now. Yes, some would say it was Monroe's army who saved our posteriors, and it did for a couple years before the leaders settled down to marrying rich Irish widows and getting their hands on the local real estate. (For starters, read "Scottish Covenanters and Irish Confederates" by Stevenson). The only man who could get an army sizable enough to defeat the Confederates (which included not just many Irish but many English) was Cromwell. Not the Scots, Parliament, King Charlie (now there's a sorry creature for you), no one. The Ulster Scots of the day certainly didn't view him as a heroic figure but they did appreciate that he restored stability and left them alone. He provided what they wanted: A Protestant government in Ireland and stability after more than ten years of chaos, so they could get back to the usual: growing food and praying. Cromwell was largely (alas) a man of his times, and it was a very bad time. He was a bad guy, now in a bad place now along with all his enemies who were just as bad as he was and a large number of his victims who were bad people too but more incompetent bad people than he and his temporary friends. That's the problem with forming temporary coalitions to defeat the extremist bad guys on either side -- these coalitions are unstable like the bad guys who are in them. Meanwhile there's the bad guys with no power at all fomenting rebellion, hatred, violence, greed, and propaganda who centuries later will be whining and howling. But it doesn't justify letting yourself be brainwashed by the Irish or Victorian English historians though. Would your ancestors laugh? "Brains was never our strongpoint, you know!" or cry "Geez, we suffered and bled to produce this sorry soul who can't even get his bit of history straight?" Donno. Frankly my interests are the records produced that might name a few of mine. "Cromwell in Ireland" is great for that. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Barth" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2010 2:35:29 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] "Irish in the Caribbean" Anyone interested in the Cromwell-inspired genocide in Ireland might also read: "Hell or Connaught!: The Cromwellian Colonization of Ireland, 1652-1660" by Peter Berresford Ellis (1975) But the Irish weren't the ones who dug up his body in Westminster, gave it a posthumous execution for regicide in 1661, cut off the corpse's head and hung it on a pole outside Westminister for 25 years. His own disavowed him for being a religious zealot, a hypocrite and a mass-murderer. > From: [email protected] > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:33:52 -0500 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [S-I] "Irish in the Caribbean" > > A supplement, not an argument: > > Someone here has a tagline about "The past is another country. They do > things differently there". > > When you read a lot of history, after a while you get over ascribing nasty > and nefarious motives to people in a far different time, because you have > learned how different the environment, the threats to security, the world > they lived in, was. > > We live in a world where lots of people keep pets and think of it as normal > and a pleasant part of life. But there are people elsewhere (Sweden, I > think) who consider keeping pets as we think of slavery, an offence against > nature and morality. > > I am trying to keep that in mind; however it is a struggle, when I consider > what I know about what Cromwell and his minions, did to the people of > Ireland - because he won, and because he had the guns and swords. > > Ann L. > > > > In a message dated 3/1/2010 12:16:14 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) writes: > > Well, I did read the book including the footnotes and glanced through his > bibliography. The book is definitely part of the anti-English polemic that > the Irish are so fond of, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Another person > could of course re-shuffle the same data and come up with a different > conclusion and on and on -- fodder for future dissertations and books > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message