Some time ago after a discussion on the Scotch-Irish list I decided that I would start a cultural list. Over the past few years the Scotch-Irish list has developed in genealogical terms and in no longer the place where there use to be cosy discussions about the more esoteric features of Scotch-Irish Culture and History. I have also discovered the Irish Scots list which while it is not directly connected to the Scotch-Irish saga, does point the Ulster Scots to that part of the common experience of Irishness which is shared by people from all parts of Ireland, that of being a paddy in Britain. I however believe that it is important to affirm the experience of the Scotch Irish tribe before they left for America, acknowledging that there is still a substantial remnant in Ireland, which while it may or may not have a strong political basis depending who you are talking to. I will be posting definitely on Scotch - Irish, and I hope on Irish-Scots to encourage people, not withstanding the name to come here for discussion about the Scots Irish. What I will be saying will be based on what I have written here, and is simply going to be an invitation for people to come and post. Edward Andrews > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Janet > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:08 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! > > What is the culture list? > Janet > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pan-Celtic Flag: _http://www.zazzle.com/pan_celtic_flag_tshirt-235036276336351108_ (http://www.zazzle.com/pan_celtic_flag_tshirt-235036276336351108) or _http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/int-celt.html_ (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/int-celt.html) (Interesting that the triskell, Isle of Man symbol, is also the symbol of Sicily.) or the easiest : S-I in Celtic Font: _http://www.dafont.com/theme.php?cat=403_ (http://www.dafont.com/theme.php?cat=403) free download Ann Lamb

I LOVE it!!! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cliff. Johnston" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 8, 2010 8:59:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group Hmmm, or a leprachan with a surprised look sitting on a thistle ;-) Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:32 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group > Hi Boyd, your symbol works for you, but in Tennessee, I am not sure anyone > would understand it. > We'd have to spend lots of Euros/dollars doing market research to be sure > of course. The first > time I ran into the Red Hand was in a book. It makes no sense here. You'd > have to explain it. > > That's one of this ethnic group's problems: we became different in the > various places we went to. > One person suggested to me a symbol with the Union flag ....well now, that > won't work in Tennessee > either. It makes the bearer seem like a Tory (in the American sense : ie a > Loyalist in the American > Revolution, descendents now in Canada). > > Perhaps a shamrock impaled on a thistle kind of gets the point across in a > universal fashion? > (just joking!) > > Linda Merle > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ruth In 1877 the Bristol Coal & Iron Railroad began building its railroad which ran from Bristol, Sullivan County, Tennessee to Big Stone. Shortly thereafter, the railroad was transferred to South Atlantic & Ohio Railroad which ran to the coal fields at Estillville, Scott County, Virginia. When the family of James Smith was enumerated in the 1880 U.S. census of Sullivan County, Tennessee he had only been employed with that job for six months, and at age 46 this appears to have been a new occupation for him. He may have been involved in the unloading or transporting of the coal upon its arrival at Bristol from the coal fields of Virginia. Sullivan County, Tennessee is situated on the border of Virginia. Lee Ramsey -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ruth McLaughlin Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 12:49 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [S-I] a "profession" of a Scotch-Irish inhabitant of Sullivan Co., Tennessee Having difficulty trying to figure out the "profession, occupation or trade" for the father in an 1880 Sullivan County Census record for James & Sarah M. Smith and their 7 children. They are part of a Scotch-Irish family in TN under heavy scrutiny right now. The census-taker's handwriting is pretty clear and dark, but that still doesn't seem to help! It reads "Cole Coluer." Any ideas? One suggestion of something to do with coal was ruled out by a local who tells us there was no coal mining in that area of eastern Tennessee. The closest coal mining would be a 2-hour drive under modern conditions. The Y-DNA of this man's Smith family matches 37- for 37-markers (67-marker results espected any day) with several males (and one in particular) from a well-researched Smith family which was part of 1718 Scotch-Irish migration from Ulster, settling first in Chester, New Hampshire and ultimately New Boston, NH. DNA has contributed the first hint of a southern connection, despite decades of work. Any thoughts you might have on the significance of this 37 for 37, Linda or others, and ow far back, as well as ideas as to James Smith's "profession" would be appreciated. I have a feeling I may be back with more questions. Tennessee research is a new field for me, but I know not so new to many of you. Ruth Ottawa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Not appropriate as 40% or so are of Viking descent - an entirely different genetic stock. Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:19 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group > Pan-Celtic Flag: > > _http://www.zazzle.com/pan_celtic_flag_tshirt-235036276336351108_ > (http://www.zazzle.com/pan_celtic_flag_tshirt-235036276336351108) or > > _http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/int-celt.html_ > (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/int-celt.html) (Interesting that > the triskell, Isle of Man > symbol, is also the symbol of Sicily.) > > or the easiest : S-I in Celtic Font: > _http://www.dafont.com/theme.php?cat=403_ > (http://www.dafont.com/theme.php?cat=403) free download > > Ann Lamb > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Boyd, your symbol works for you, but in Tennessee, I am not sure anyone would understand it. We'd have to spend lots of Euros/dollars doing market research to be sure of course. The first time I ran into the Red Hand was in a book. It makes no sense here. You'd have to explain it. That's one of this ethnic group's problems: we became different in the various places we went to. One person suggested to me a symbol with the Union flag ....well now, that won't work in Tennessee either. It makes the bearer seem like a Tory (in the American sense : ie a Loyalist in the American Revolution, descendents now in Canada). Perhaps a shamrock impaled on a thistle kind of gets the point across in a universal fashion? (just joking!) Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 8, 2010 7:40:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group As a symbol for the group, you may wish to see the symbol of the East Donegal Ulster Scots Association, of which I am a member: http://www.eastdonegalulsterscots.com/peace.html As you can see, it incorporates the shamrock for the Irish connection, a thistle for the Scottish connection and the Red Hand of Ulster, from the famous Celtic myth, for the Ulster connection. Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The iron furnace and forge business up until around 1850 used charcoal to melt the iron ore. A charcoal burner or collier was a man who made charcoal from wood. Small furnaces and forges used charcoal as fuel longer than the big furnaces which switched to coal. Those workers were also referred to as "coalers" in business records. After the general use of coal as fuel the word "collier" became synonymous with coal miners. A perfectly good word so why waste it? Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 11:49 AM Subject: [S-I] a "profession" of a Scotch-Irish inhabitant of Sullivan Co.,Tennessee Having difficulty trying to figure out the "profession, occupation or trade" for the father in an 1880 Sullivan County Census record for James & Sarah M. Smith and their 7 children. They are part of a Scotch-Irish family in TN under heavy scrutiny right now. The census-taker's handwriting is pretty clear and dark, but that still doesn't seem to help! It reads "Cole Coluer." Any ideas? One suggestion of something to do with coal was ruled out by a local who tells us there was no coal mining in that area of eastern Tennessee. The closest coal mining would be a 2-hour drive under modern conditions. The Y-DNA of this man's Smith family matches 37- for 37-markers (67-marker results espected any day) with several males (and one in particular) from a well-researched Smith family which was part of 1718 Scotch-Irish migration from Ulster, settling first in Chester, New Hampshire and ultimately New Boston, NH. DNA has contributed the first hint of a southern connection, despite decades of work. Any thoughts you might have on the significance of this 37 for 37, Linda or others, and ow far back, as well as ideas as to James Smith's "profession" would be appreciated. I have a feeling I may be back with more questions. Tennessee research is a new field for me, but I know not so new to many of you. Ruth Ottawa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4925 (20100308) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com

Having difficulty trying to figure out the "profession, occupation or trade" for the father in an 1880 Sullivan County Census record for James & Sarah M. Smith and their 7 children. They are part of a Scotch-Irish family in TN under heavy scrutiny right now. The census-taker's handwriting is pretty clear and dark, but that still doesn't seem to help! It reads "Cole Coluer." Any ideas? One suggestion of something to do with coal was ruled out by a local who tells us there was no coal mining in that area of eastern Tennessee. The closest coal mining would be a 2-hour drive under modern conditions. The Y-DNA of this man's Smith family matches 37- for 37-markers (67-marker results espected any day) with several males (and one in particular) from a well-researched Smith family which was part of 1718 Scotch-Irish migration from Ulster, settling first in Chester, New Hampshire and ultimately New Boston, NH. DNA has contributed the first hint of a southern connection, despite decades of work. Any thoughts you might have on the significance of this 37 for 37, Linda or others, and ow far back, as well as ideas as to James Smith's "profession" would be appreciated. I have a feeling I may be back with more questions. Tennessee research is a new field for me, but I know not so new to many of you. Ruth Ottawa

As a symbol for the group, you may wish to see the symbol of the East Donegal Ulster Scots Association, of which I am a member: http://www.eastdonegalulsterscots.com/peace.html As you can see, it incorporates the shamrock for the Irish connection, a thistle for the Scottish connection and the Red Hand of Ulster, from the famous Celtic myth, for the Ulster connection. Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm http://www.westulstergenealogy.com/

Linda: If you download a Fast Stone resizer, you can resize that image. You can convert it to Jpeg, or leave it a BTM (bitmap) file. You can resize based on pixels or percentage. It's free and you can download one here: http://www.faststone.org/ Read the instructions. Woody Stephens -------------------------------------------------- From: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:44 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! > Nope, not me, none of these programs. I ain't getting any either! King > Billy worked once I figured out > how to do it after the fourth or fifth try. > > Manana....... > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "W.F. Stephens" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2010 5:48:36 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! > > Do you have Photoshop or Corel Paint Shop or similar photo editing > software? > If so, you can open the bitmap file in either one and use the resize > feature. I don't recall if either program can handle bitmap, but if they > can't, try opening the image in the Windows or Apple image viewer and then > saving it as a JPEG file. You'll then to be able to work it in either > program as a JPEG image. > > Woody Stephens > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 2:56 PM > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! > >> I can't find a good image for the genealogy wise list. I did try a bitmap >> of King Billy but it was apparently too big and didn't work. >> Unfortunately >> we are not the most visually graphic people on the planet, I see (again) >> searching the Internet. >> >> Anyone know of a little orange lily or something that'll work (that is >> either in the public domain or the owner will let us use)? >> >> What is sad is all these images are from Ulster -- what has America got >> to >> offer, I wonder? (Don't look at me, I'm apparently too Scotch Irish to >> HAVE anything visual!!!!). >> >> Does anyone have a clever loyalist son or daughter who can make a little >> bitmap? >> >> And does anyone want to start an Ulster Scots, Canadian Ulster Scots, >> etc, >> group???? (Or are you all too busy drinking green beer to network for >> your >> heritage?) >> >> Off to find NewDog who ran away on his walk today.....he has my phone >> number on his collar so he'll be back... Maybe now we know how the little >> bugger became homeless in the first place <grin>. >> >> Linda Merle >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Really this is something which we should be discussing in the Culture list - As an Ulster Scot now living in Scotland I am very aware that I am not Scottish. I have some different attitudes, and in some cases different values from the Scots around me. As far as the Church is concerned, the PCI and the Kirk are quite different. Part of this is that early Irish Presbyterianism was influenced by English Congregationalism, and there were quite strong tensions between the Irish refugees who took refuge in, I think, Irvine during the time of the Black Oaths, and even the Covenanted Kirk. What had happened by 1912 was that the Protestants who were also Unionists were working hard on affirming a UK identity. I was very much brought up as being a Scot in exile. The Irish nationalists, right until the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement where it was decided that all the cultures of Northern Ireland were to be equally affirmed, very much tied in being Irish with Gaelic speaking Roman Catholicism. One of the funniest things about this is that the only area of Britain which is largely comfortable with the Theology of Ian Paisley. The irony is that the general language and in many places the language of preference for worship is Gaelic. The idea of the Ulster Scot / Scotch Irish was an affirmation of this separated state. The Scotch Irish in America were to distinguish them from the famine refugees in the 1840s and thereafter. I wish someone would check this one up, perhaps at the time of your Rebellion it was also used to distinguish us from the Scots who in large numbers were supporters of the Status Quo that the idea of Ulster Scots was perhaps developed. Come over to Culture where we can argue this one. Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donnalangbank > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 10:41 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! > > But my husbands Presbyterian relatives who moved from donegal > to Scotland in 1912 used to say they were Scottish as being > Irish was not seen as a good thing!!! > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 7 Mar 2010, at 21:32, Penny Bonnar <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I know. I realized after I sent the link that it was only Scottish. > > > > Then I looked for other sites, but there really isn't much. > > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 3:03 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > > >> Hi Penny, Cute, but we're not Scottish <grin>. Once you landed in > >> Ulster you were living in a new political climate and you changed. > >> There doesn't seem to have been nearly as many kilts (after the > >> Plantation at least) or haggis -- which you can see > immediately was > >> an improvement. On the negative side the natives were > unfriendly but > >> on the other hand, they had very good looking daughters. The fake > >> highland stuff wouldn't do anyway -- only highlanders wore them, > >> before they were made unlawful. Our lowland Scots > ancestors would as > >> soon appear in public in a kilt as Andrew Jackson would have been > >> caught walking around in Washington DC in a loincloth with > tomahawk! > >> Lowland Scots were as fond of highlanders as Andy was of Indians, > >> too. > >> However now it is big money to sell you some itchy wool so > who cares > >> about the truth. > >> > >> The climate in east Ulster at least was pretty good, so we > grew a lot > >> of different kinds of grains. Even today in Belfast the > bakeries are > >> full of all kinds of breads you will find no where else in > Ireland -- > >> or even perhaps Scotland. In fact the parent of the famous > southern > >> breakfast is the Ulster breakfast. The north coast is not > called the > >> Chlorestorol Coast for no good reason. If your mother, like mine, > >> though her ancesters had left Ireland 250 years before, was still > >> enjoying a lot of different breads -- that's a sign that > she was an > >> Ulster girl. > >> > >> So if you go to Ulster this summer, diet before hand so > you will have > >> more room for the food. > >> > >> I found an image, maybe a little too Ulstery -- but this is a > >> challenge for us Americans to come up with something not > Scottish and > >> not even Ulster. If only I had a photie of my > grandfather's favorite > >> goat. I'd even use this bitmap of tartan that I inherited, > but I know > >> the ancestor brought it from Scotland: > >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~merle/Family/Tartan.htm > >> > >> So it won't do either.... But King Billy will do for now > because if > >> our ancestors were Protestants in Ireland, they were on his side. > >> If your immediate ancestors tell other stories, it's a > sign they were > >> either brainwashed recently or your family assimilated after 1600. > >> Which is an important clue. Many Irish did, as the DNA shows. > >> If your DNA is Irish, be happy. What was Scotland once but > an Irish > >> colony? Your ancestors christianized the heathenish Scotti > (ex Irish, > >> themselves) and the Picts of Alba. > >> Feel proud! > >> > >> Linda Merle > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Penny Bonnar" <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2010 3:25:07 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! > >> > >> Maybe something here? > >> > >> http://www.scottish-crafts.co.uk/clipart.htm > >> > >> > >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 1:56 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> > >>> I can't find a good image for the genealogy wise list. I > did try a > >>> bitmap of King Billy but it was apparently too big and > didn't work. > >>> Unfortunately we are not the most visually graphic people on the > >>> planet, I see (again) searching the Internet. > >>> > >>> Anyone know of a little orange lily or something that'll > work (that > >>> is either in the public domain or the owner will let us use)? > >>> > >>> What is sad is all these images are from Ulster -- what > has America > >>> got to offer, I wonder? (Don't look at me, I'm apparently > too Scotch > >>> Irish to HAVE anything visual!!!!). > >>> > >>> Does anyone have a clever loyalist son or daughter who can make a > >>> little bitmap? > >>> > >>> And does anyone want to start an Ulster Scots, Canadian Ulster > >>> Scots, etc, group???? (Or are you all too busy drinking > green beer > >>> to network for your heritage?) > >>> > >>> Off to find NewDog who ran away on his walk today.....he has my > >>> phone number on his collar so he'll be back... Maybe now > we know how > >>> the little bugger became homeless in the first place <grin>. > >>> > >>> Linda Merle > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

How about a red cross (minus the white star and red hand) as in the Ulster flag on a blue background as in the Scottish flag? Simple to make a bitmap of. Neal.

  Hi  Linda,   My FTDNA, (67 Y Markers Tested), shows overwhelming Scotch and Irish ancestry with Irish being slightly higher than Scotch.  However, my gg grandfather, George Mitchell reported on the 1880 & 1900 U.S. Census that his Father & Mother were born in Scotland;  On George's death certificate it is reported his father's name was Jas Mitchell...   This is all the information I have on my ggg grandfather, Jas Mitchell, not enough to trace him back to Scotland or Ireland...???    I thought I would give a try to see if I could pick up any tibits that would give me some missing links...   I apologise to any of those who I may have offended on the list, Richard   --- On Sun, 3/7/10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: From: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] Mitchell, Scotch/Irish New York to Michigan To: [email protected] Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 6:24 PM Hi Richard, Are you sure you are on the right list? You say your ancestor was from Scotland. This list is about people from Ireland -- generally the north of Ireland. "Scotch-Irish" doesn't mean 'maybe Scots or maybe Irish" (as we sometimes get here). It's the name of an American ethnic group. In the homeland (Ulster), they're called "Ulster Scots". You might then say, well, if they were originally from Scotland why not? Well, because what we're interested in here is tracing them back to Ireland. Ireland is a very different country from Scotland. It's records are different as well as its history and you do genealogy rather differently. I know, I research in both countries. So looking for people from Scotland here is a little like the man who was looking around under the streetlamp one night. A passerby stopped and asked if he'd lost something. "Yes," said the man, "my keys". They looked for a while and didn't find them. "Are you sure you lost them here?" asked the good Samaritan. "Why, no," was the reply, "I lost them over there, but the light is better here." "Here' is this list. Scottish people are looking on various Scottish lists that you can find here: www.rootsweb.com. Our page: See http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~merle/ I have Mitchells in Scotland, but a hundred years before you. Unless they're in eastern Stirlingshire, I can't help. Many, many Mitchells just in that one place. I may also say that if you picked the "Scotland" up off a census, it could be wrong. Let me also add that I do this 'kind of work' (tracing people back to the homelands) professionally and I can tell you how I succeeded. First of all you look in Scotland. That's easy because of IGI and the index of Scottish church records. If your ancestor was NOT standard Presbyterian, you need to know that. If they are associated with Seceders or Covenantors (Reformed) -- you need to know. If you don't, find out. This kind of genealogy is circular, and this is one time you'll have circle back. Why? Well -- if they were orthodox Presbyterians, then you may be able to find them in the Scottish OPR index at IGI. (If these are strange abreviations, you need to do a little reading up and learn to use these two resources). You may need to return to the US census to find a sibling born in Scotland -- or other events in Scotland so you can triangulate in the case of a common name like Mitchell. In any case you 'should' be able to find some trace of them in Scotland. If you cannot, my experience is that they were probably in Ireland. You see this in the post Famine era where people tried to distinguish themselves from the "Famine Irish", who were Catholic. They would give an ethnicity in the census, claiming to be Scottish. Then you circle back, collecting as many new facts as you can, and attempt to find them in Ireland. The strategy differs with the era in which you are looking. In one case like this (9 kids born in 'Scotland' in the 1860s and 70s but not a one even in the Scottish Civil Registration or a census and no marriage) .. I .found the proof in the USA the death record of the mother. The client already HAD a nice certificate. I drove to the county and looked at the ***ACTUAL *** death register in the 1890s. This included additional information that was not copied into the nice, expensive death certificate form because it didn't have any fields. The additional information included: her maiden name, the name of both parents, and the name of the county she was born in in Ireland. The maiden name and the name of the mother let me return to Scotland and there I found in ***1***** Scottish census (1851) that she was living with her mother, unmarried. No sign of future husband. Did find the father in County Down. Married in Ireland (or not married at all). You can do a search of some Irish marriage records now on line but we didn't (client ran out of money). The Tithe Applotment index gave me the location in Co Down....you could have done a church by church search as well if you had won the lottery recently. This was another common surname -- Brown (the husband, not her maiden name). Her father had died since dad was in the Tithe Applotments in the 1830s but not in Griffiths. The family knew (and the US Census confirmed) that the mother of the migrating mother was born on a Channel Island (I forget which). The Scottish census in 1851 confirmed the widowed mother was born on this island. In the whole county in Scotland, only one other person was born on this island -- so -- it was very good evidence that this was the right person. So, as you can see the critical information was found by dotting i's in the USA -- NOT settling for a certificate obtained from the county, and several circular movements back and forth, collecting information and returning to give it another try. This worked -- and except for the trip to the county -- I did it sitting here at my desk. To effectively do genealogy in Scotland, you can upload a free guide at www.familysearch.org. You can do the same with Irish genealogy. You cannot make much progress, except the limping sort, in either place, without learning how to do it, even if you can do American genealogy really well. If you find pre-famine info claiming they are Scots, I would expect that they actually were though. I know we have others here researching Scottish Mitchells....maybe they can help. I try to hide from Mitchells unless they are in my home county because I can't even sort out all the Mitchells there let alone help anyone one else's. You have DNA, at least on your side to help when you do get to Scotland or Ireland or ... both.... Another useless info: Mitchells on the eastern coast of Antrim, north of Belfast, are a little more likely to be from east Stirlingshire because a number of landowners obtained Irish estates there. Many of the surnames are the same and I'm sure a few Mitchells made the journey from eastern Stirling. Good luck in any case. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Mitchell" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2010 12:35:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [S-I] Mitchell, Scotch/Irish New York to Michigan If anyone has any information or questions about my Mitchell family I would appreciate hearing from you: My great grandfather James D Mitchell: click on or go to> http://www3.familyoldphotos.com/photo/mitchell/16511/james-d-mitchell-born-march-31-1850-died-october-14-1922 James D Mitchell's father is to believed to be George Mitchell born 1821 in New York; George's father, Jas Mitchell born in Scotland... James D Mitchell's siblings: Lucinda, born abt. 1843 George Perry, born abt. 1847 Charles, born abt. 1854 Thank You, Richard Mitchell (DNA R1b1b2) [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could the word be collier? Besides meaning a coal miner & a boat that hauls coal, it can also mean a person who produces or sells charcoal, or a coal merchant. On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Ruth McLaughlin <[email protected]>wrote: > Having difficulty trying to figure out the "profession, occupation or > trade" for the father in an 1880 Sullivan County Census record for > James & Sarah M. Smith and their 7 children. They are part of a > Scotch-Irish family in TN under heavy scrutiny right now. The > census-taker's handwriting is pretty clear and dark, but that still > doesn't seem to help! It reads "Cole Coluer." Any ideas? One > suggestion of something to do with coal was ruled out by a local who > tells us there was no coal mining in that area of eastern Tennessee. > The closest coal mining would be a 2-hour drive under modern > conditions. > > The Y-DNA of this man's Smith family matches 37- for 37-markers > (67-marker results espected any day) with several males (and one in > particular) from a well-researched Smith family which was part of 1718 > Scotch-Irish migration from Ulster, settling first in Chester, New > Hampshire and ultimately New Boston, NH. DNA has contributed the first > hint of a southern connection, despite decades of work. > > Any thoughts you might have on the significance of this 37 for 37, > Linda or others, and ow far back, as well as ideas as to James Smith's > "profession" would be appreciated. I have a feeling I may be back with > more questions. Tennessee research is a new field for me, but I know > not so new to many of you. > > Ruth > Ottawa > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The man was a collier (according to the OED, "one whose occupation or trade is to procure or supply coal (formerly charcoal); one engaged in the coal trade").  I don't know what part of Sullivan County is involved here, but it is on the state line and Ruth Ottawa needs to talk to a "local" or two who knows about southwest Virginia.  I've recently been transcribing some oral history interviews from Dante, Virginia (Russell County), maybe 20 miles from Kingsport, Tennessee (in Sullivan County), where there were large coal towns by the 1930s.  One would have to think that  in 1880 the locals were aware of the presence of coal, were extracting it in some fashion, and needed transporters.  Sullivan County was down river from that part of Virginia, whatever access the overland roads would have provided.  As a side note, let me say that the coal towns were fascinating settlements of many ethnicities; Dante, Virginia (modern popular maybe 500) had hundreds of Hungarians, Italians, and other recently arrived Europeans as well as descendants of those who came earlier to the region (Scotch-Irish, English, Germans) and African Americans from the Deep South.  It would be fascinaing to look at the place's 1940 census.  Michael Montgomery Message: 6 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 12:49:17 -0500 From: Ruth McLaughlin <[email protected]> Subject: [S-I] a "profession" of a Scotch-Irish inhabitant of Sullivan Co., Tennessee To: [email protected] Having difficulty trying to figure out the "profession, occupation or trade" for the father?in an 1880 Sullivan County Census record? for James & Sarah M. Smith and their 7 children. They are part of a Scotch-Irish family in TN under heavy scrutiny right now. The census-taker's handwriting is pretty clear and dark, but that still doesn't seem to help! It reads "Cole Coluer." Any ideas? One suggestion of something to do with coal was ruled out by a local who tells us there was no coal mining in that area of eastern Tennessee.The closest coal mining would be a 2-hour drive under modern conditions. The Y-DNA of this man's Smith family matches 37- for 37-markers (67-marker results espected any day) with several males (and one in particular) from a well-researched Smith family which was part of 1718 Scotch-Irish migration from Ulster, settling first in Chester, New Hampshire and ultimately New Boston, NH. DNA has contributed the first hint of a southern connection, despite decades of work. Any thoughts you might have on the significance of this 37 for 37, Linda or others, and ow far back, as well as ideas as to James Smith's "profession" would be appreciated. I have a feeling I may be back with more questions. Tennessee research is a new field for me, but I know not so new to many of you. Ruth Ottawa *******************************

LOL...we're bad ;-) Enjoy, life is too short... Cliff. "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group > How embarrassing....I posted this to the whole group? Well there goes my > diplomatic appointment. > > I guess the idiots are not just on the streets drinking green beer this > time of year. Some of us are > inside self-destructing or exposing ourselves to be sectarian > jokesters....... > > Someone's going to show up at my door and revoke my Irish genes now. And > so much for > that mascarade of being a 'peace and love' kind of person, not that too > many were fooled. > > Mea culpa.... > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cliff. Johnston" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, March 8, 2010 10:04:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group > > Linda, > > See, good things do happen ;-) > > I have an artist friend in Canada who could probably do a great job with > this poster idea...lol... I should copy this thread and send it to her to > see if she has any interest...lol... > > Cliff. > "May the best you've ever seen, > Be the worst you'll ever see;" > from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 8:55 AM > Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group > > >>I think you can sell this idea to the Loyalists for a huge wall mural >><grin>! They won't have a problem deciding where the thistle goes <grin>. >>Wow, I'm cheered up now. I don't even mind my newdog ran away (but came >>back) and my computer went south (but now works again) or that it is a >>week >>till St. Patricks Day when all the idiots hit the streets!! >> >> Linda >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Cliff. Johnston" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Monday, March 8, 2010 9:50:13 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group >> >> Thank you :-) >> >> Now we just have to decide where the thistle hits his bare bottom ;-) >> >> Cliff. >> "May the best you've ever seen, >> Be the worst you'll ever see;" >> from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 8:14 AM >> Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group >> >> >>>I LOVE it!!! >>> >>> Linda Merle >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Cliff. Johnston" <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Monday, March 8, 2010 8:59:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >>> Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group >>> >>> Hmmm, or a leprachan with a surprised look sitting on a thistle ;-) >>> >>> Cliff. Johnston >>> "May the best you've ever seen, >>> Be the worst you'll ever see;" >>> from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:32 AM >>> Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group >>> >>> >>>> Hi Boyd, your symbol works for you, but in Tennessee, I am not sure >>>> anyone >>>> would understand it. >>>> We'd have to spend lots of Euros/dollars doing market research to be >>>> sure >>>> of course. The first >>>> time I ran into the Red Hand was in a book. It makes no sense here. >>>> You'd >>>> have to explain it. >>>> >>>> That's one of this ethnic group's problems: we became different in the >>>> various places we went to. >>>> One person suggested to me a symbol with the Union flag ....well now, >>>> that >>>> won't work in Tennessee >>>> either. It makes the bearer seem like a Tory (in the American sense : >>>> ie >>>> a >>>> Loyalist in the American >>>> Revolution, descendents now in Canada). >>>> >>>> Perhaps a shamrock impaled on a thistle kind of gets the point across >>>> in >>>> a >>>> universal fashion? >>>> (just joking!) >>>> >>>> Linda Merle >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Laird's made in New Jersey? sounds like my ancestors too Carolyn Mills Hughes > [Original Message] > From: Lois Gibboney <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Date: 3/8/2010 8:17:17 AM > Subject: Re: [S-I] symbol for group > > <snip> > Ach, then one gets into the argument about which whisky label to use... ;-) > > We could use someone playing a fiddle, a bottle of Laird's Applejack nearby > and some frontiersmen dancing a jig. Laird's is surely Scotch-Irish and made > in America. This sounds representative of my ancestors!! > > ~Lois > > > ******** > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In my experience you are absolutely correct but I would suggest that there are several valid but different positions. a) The view of Protestant Scots Irish who returned to Scotland, when they arrived and how their view evolved after a period of assimilation. b) The view of Irish who came to Scotland, when they arrived and how their view evolved after a period of assimilation. c) The view of Protestant Scots Irish who migrated to the USA, when they arrived and how their view evolved after a period of assimilation. d) The view of Irish who migrated to the USA, when they arrived and how their view evolved after a period of assimilation. And there will be variations on the above depending upon education and whether or not people were involved in mixed marriages. I think most people on this list are tracing ancestors who moved from Ireland to the USA from Northern Ireland. I suspect you and I are in the minority who are tracing ancestors who moved from Ireland and Northern Ireland to Scotland. Regards John S. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donnalangbank Sent: 08 March 2010 10:41 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! But my husbands Presbyterian relatives who moved from donegal to Scotland in 1912 used to say they were Scottish as being Irish was not seen as a good thing!!! Sent from my iPhone On 7 Mar 2010, at 21:32, Penny Bonnar <[email protected]> wrote: > I know. I realized after I sent the link that it was only Scottish. > > Then I looked for other sites, but there really isn't much. > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 3:03 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> Hi Penny, Cute, but we're not Scottish <grin>. Once you landed in >> Ulster you were living in a new political climate and you changed. >> There doesn't seem to have been nearly as many kilts (after the >> Plantation at least) or haggis -- which you can see immediately was >> an improvement. On the negative side the natives were unfriendly >> but on the other hand, they had very good looking daughters. The >> fake highland stuff wouldn't do anyway -- only highlanders wore >> them, before they were made unlawful. Our lowland Scots ancestors >> would >> as soon appear in public in a kilt as Andrew Jackson would have >> been caught walking around in Washington >> DC in a loincloth with tomahawk! Lowland Scots were as fond of >> highlanders as Andy was of Indians, too. >> However now it is big money to sell you some itchy wool so who >> cares about the truth. >> >> The climate in east Ulster at least was pretty good, so we grew a >> lot of different kinds of grains. Even today in Belfast the >> bakeries are full of all kinds of breads you will find no where >> else in Ireland -- or even perhaps Scotland. In fact the parent of >> the famous southern breakfast is the Ulster breakfast. The north >> coast is not called the Chlorestorol Coast for no good reason. If >> your mother, like mine, though her ancesters had left Ireland 250 >> years before, was still enjoying a lot of different breads -- >> that's a sign that she was an Ulster girl. >> >> So if you go to Ulster this summer, diet before hand so you will >> have more room for the food. >> >> I found an image, maybe a little too Ulstery -- but this is a >> challenge for us Americans to come up with something not Scottish >> and not even Ulster. If only I had a photie of my grandfather's >> favorite goat. I'd even use this bitmap of tartan that I inherited, >> but I know the ancestor brought it from Scotland: >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~merle/Family/Tartan.htm >> >> So it won't do either.... But King Billy will do for now because if >> our ancestors were Protestants in Ireland, they were on his side. >> If your immediate ancestors tell other stories, it's a sign they >> were either brainwashed recently or your family assimilated after >> 1600. Which is an important clue. Many Irish did, as the DNA shows. >> If your DNA is Irish, be happy. What was Scotland once but an Irish >> colony? Your ancestors christianized the >> heathenish Scotti (ex Irish, themselves) and the Picts of Alba. >> Feel proud! >> >> Linda Merle >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Penny Bonnar" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2010 3:25:07 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! >> >> Maybe something here? >> >> http://www.scottish-crafts.co.uk/clipart.htm >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 1:56 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> I can't find a good image for the genealogy wise list. I did try a >>> bitmap of King Billy but it was apparently too big and didn't >>> work. Unfortunately we are not the most visually graphic people on >>> the planet, I see (again) searching the Internet. >>> >>> Anyone know of a little orange lily or something that'll work >>> (that is either in the public domain or the owner will let us use)? >>> >>> What is sad is all these images are from Ulster -- what has >>> America got to offer, I wonder? (Don't look at me, I'm apparently >>> too Scotch Irish to HAVE anything visual!!!!). >>> >>> Does anyone have a clever loyalist son or daughter who can make a >>> little bitmap? >>> >>> And does anyone want to start an Ulster Scots, Canadian Ulster >>> Scots, etc, group???? (Or are you all too busy drinking green beer >>> to network for your heritage?) >>> >>> Off to find NewDog who ran away on his walk today.....he has my >>> phone number on his collar so he'll be back... Maybe now we know >>> how the little bugger became homeless in the first place <grin>. >>> >>> Linda Merle >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

<snip> Ach, then one gets into the argument about which whisky label to use... ;-) We could use someone playing a fiddle, a bottle of Laird's Applejack nearby and some frontiersmen dancing a jig. Laird's is surely Scotch-Irish and made in America. This sounds representative of my ancestors!! ~Lois ********

But my husbands Presbyterian relatives who moved from donegal to Scotland in 1912 used to say they were Scottish as being Irish was not seen as a good thing!!! Sent from my iPhone On 7 Mar 2010, at 21:32, Penny Bonnar <[email protected]> wrote: > I know. I realized after I sent the link that it was only Scottish. > > Then I looked for other sites, but there really isn't much. > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 3:03 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> Hi Penny, Cute, but we're not Scottish <grin>. Once you landed in >> Ulster you were living in a new political climate and you changed. >> There doesn't seem to have been nearly as many kilts (after the >> Plantation at least) or haggis -- which you can see immediately was >> an improvement. On the negative side the natives were unfriendly >> but on the other hand, they had very good looking daughters. The >> fake highland stuff wouldn't do anyway -- only highlanders wore >> them, before they were made unlawful. Our lowland Scots ancestors >> would >> as soon appear in public in a kilt as Andrew Jackson would have >> been caught walking around in Washington >> DC in a loincloth with tomahawk! Lowland Scots were as fond of >> highlanders as Andy was of Indians, too. >> However now it is big money to sell you some itchy wool so who >> cares about the truth. >> >> The climate in east Ulster at least was pretty good, so we grew a >> lot of different kinds of grains. Even today in Belfast the >> bakeries are full of all kinds of breads you will find no where >> else in Ireland -- or even perhaps Scotland. In fact the parent of >> the famous southern breakfast is the Ulster breakfast. The north >> coast is not called the Chlorestorol Coast for no good reason. If >> your mother, like mine, though her ancesters had left Ireland 250 >> years before, was still enjoying a lot of different breads -- >> that's a sign that she was an Ulster girl. >> >> So if you go to Ulster this summer, diet before hand so you will >> have more room for the food. >> >> I found an image, maybe a little too Ulstery -- but this is a >> challenge for us Americans to come up with something not Scottish >> and not even Ulster. If only I had a photie of my grandfather's >> favorite goat. I'd even use this bitmap of tartan that I inherited, >> but I know the ancestor brought it from Scotland: >> http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~merle/Family/Tartan.htm >> >> So it won't do either.... But King Billy will do for now because if >> our ancestors were Protestants in Ireland, they were on his side. >> If your immediate ancestors tell other stories, it's a sign they >> were either brainwashed recently or your family assimilated after >> 1600. Which is an important clue. Many Irish did, as the DNA shows. >> If your DNA is Irish, be happy. What was Scotland once but an Irish >> colony? Your ancestors christianized the >> heathenish Scotti (ex Irish, themselves) and the Picts of Alba. >> Feel proud! >> >> Linda Merle >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Penny Bonnar" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2010 3:25:07 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: Re: [S-I] Okay Bit-Map People!! >> >> Maybe something here? >> >> http://www.scottish-crafts.co.uk/clipart.htm >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2010, at 1:56 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> I can't find a good image for the genealogy wise list. I did try a >>> bitmap of King Billy but it was apparently too big and didn't >>> work. Unfortunately we are not the most visually graphic people on >>> the planet, I see (again) searching the Internet. >>> >>> Anyone know of a little orange lily or something that'll work >>> (that is either in the public domain or the owner will let us use)? >>> >>> What is sad is all these images are from Ulster -- what has >>> America got to offer, I wonder? (Don't look at me, I'm apparently >>> too Scotch Irish to HAVE anything visual!!!!). >>> >>> Does anyone have a clever loyalist son or daughter who can make a >>> little bitmap? >>> >>> And does anyone want to start an Ulster Scots, Canadian Ulster >>> Scots, etc, group???? (Or are you all too busy drinking green beer >>> to network for your heritage?) >>> >>> Off to find NewDog who ran away on his walk today.....he has my >>> phone number on his collar so he'll be back... Maybe now we know >>> how the little bugger became homeless in the first place <grin>. >>> >>> Linda Merle >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message