The migration in 1719 to Pennsylvania would seem to be directed to the Scotch-Irish settlement "at the forks of the Neshaminy" in what was then the center of Bucks Co., PA, as Northampton Co, PA was not formed until 1752. The land to this settlement had no ownership until it was purchased by Chief-Justice Allen in 1735, and who sold title of land to the individual settlers, bringing stability to this early community. Thus, no land deed records until 1735. The Neshaminy Presbyterian Church was established about 1726 with William Tennent as its first pastor. Some of the early families are identified as Jamison, Ramsey, Archibald, McCullough, McMicken, Henderson and Wallace. Some of the settlers at the forks of the Neshaminy settlers most likely were part of the settlement at the forks of the Delaware (Easton) in East Allen Township, in 1737, which became known as the "Craig Settlement" with Warwick as its center. Warwick Township had been formed 1733 by residents of Middleburg Township. Some of these early families are identified as Craig, Jamison, Baird, Stewart, Hair, Long, Weir, Armstrong, Gray, Graham and Wallace. Lee Ramsey -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel Wilson Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:18 PM To: Scotch-Irish Discussion List Subject: Re: [S-I] Migration of 1718 group from Casco Bay to Northampton Co., PA I too have been searching for some hard evidence of the migration from Casco Bay to Northampton Co., PA. I haven't read Collier's book, but I've seen a quote attributed to William Egle, former PA State Historian and prolific writer of PA history. I don't have the exact quote on hand but it was something in his attempt to explain the so-called "irish Settlement" which began at Mt. Bethel, PA not far from Easton, PA, and spread west to the Lehigh River around Allentown, PA. In his statement he mentions the difficult winter at Casco Bay and the migration to eastern PA. There is also an anecdote that the group got lost on the way, and thought they were settling in NY, so they named their settlement the "Hunter Settlement" supposedly in honor of the Governor of NY at the time. A contingent from the Hunter Settlement moved on to E. TN and settled around Greenville, Greene Co., TN ca. 1791, where they founded the Mt. Bethel Presbyterian church, named in remembrance of their former home in PA. If you want more specific information, let me know, and I'll dig out what I have. Dan Wilson From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM >> To: <[email protected]> >> Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH >> toPA in 1719 >> > >>> Below is an excerpt about the 1718 arrival of "the 5 ships" to give > >>> the context. The bit of the excerpt that catches my attention is the > >>> last sentence beginning "The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not > >>> wait any longer...." Here's the paragraph: > >>> > >>> Elmer Roy Collier begins his book, Weir, Wear, and Ware, by saying, > >>> "The... families petitioned in 1718 to the Governor of New England to > >>> come to America...they arrived in Boston Harbor in 4 August 1718 but > >>> were forbidden to land by the intolerant Puritans. ...Sixteen families > >>> sailed to Casco Bay to claim a tract of land there but were frozen in > >>> the Bay by early winter weather?When the ice broke in the Spring they > >>> journeyed to Haverhill, Mass., where they heard of a fine tract of > >>> land about 15 miles northeast called Nutfield?James Gregg and Robert > >>> Weir sent a request to the Governor and Court, assembled at > >>> Portsmouth, New Hampshire, for a township ten miles square. The > >>> majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer and traveled > >>> overland to the Scotts-Irish settlement at the Forks of the Delaware > >>> (Northampton County, Pennsylvania)." > >>> > >>> Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New > >>> Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay, ME? Who were > >>> they, why there in particular, how did they get there? I am familiar > >>> with the families who stayed and settled in Nutfield/Londonderry, NH > >>> and environs. The idea makes sense that others, perhaps within the > >>> same families, couldn't wait for the decision of Governor and Court, > >>> not wanting to endure another tough winter as yet unsettled, and moved > >>> on to PA, thus losing contact with siblings, cousins etc. in NH. But I > >>> am out of my depth on PA! So any insights or help would be much > >>> appreciated. > >>> > >>> Ruth ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My Boyds supposedly arrived at the "Forks of the Delaware before arriving at Craig Settlemen(t became Allen Township.) Does this fit with anyone else...........or.............is more definitive information available? I would love to know if they were possibly part of the group under discussion. Diane

Yes, the Log College and the associated church of Rev. William Tennent are probably the earliest of the Irish Settlements in Eastern PA., but I haven't seen anything that states these people all came at the same time or were from the same place in Ireland. In contrast, the 1718 group were primarily from the parishes of Dunboe, Macosquin and Aghadowey and elsewhere throughout the Bann Valley, so that makes their settlement a bit unique. It's certainly possible that the 1718 group from the Kennebec first settled at the Neshaminy and later moved to Mt. Bethel, but I haven't heard of this before. Maybe that's why I've missed the hard evidence I'm after. Do you have information suggesting that the Kennebec contingent from the 1718 group settled at the Neshaminy? The Craig Settlement in Allen Township, however, seems to have been comprised of Scotch-Irish that did not come as a group, but rather as individuals and families. The Craig settlement usually is said to have been settled in the 1730-1735 period with its center at Weaversville /Bath rather than Warwick. Davis (1905) in his /History of Buck Co, Pennsylvania, /says that the residence of Thomas Craig was about 4 miles from Bath. About the Hunter Settlement he says that Alexander Hunter arrived at the Forks of the Delaware with about 30 families - he does not give a date for their arrival. However, in 1730 he acquired 300 acres "on the North Branch near the mouth of Hunter's Creek." Hunter's settlement was planted at three places: Martin's Creek, Richmond and Williamsburg - all in Mt. Bethel Township. From this, it sounds as if the 30 families arrived at the forks of the Delaware before 1730, then moved to Mt. Bethel when Hunter obtained the land for the settlement. So it sounds possible that they could have been in Warwick Twp. prior to 1730. Anyway, interesting stuff! Thanks for pointing me toward Warwick as a possible early location for the Hunter Settlement. Dan Lee K. Ramsey wrote: > The migration in 1719 to Pennsylvania would seem to be directed to the > Scotch-Irish settlement "at the forks of the Neshaminy" in what was then the > center of Bucks Co., PA, as Northampton Co, PA was not formed until 1752. > The land to this settlement had no ownership until it was purchased by > Chief-Justice Allen in 1735, and who sold title of land to the individual > settlers, bringing stability to this early community. Thus, no land deed > records until 1735. The Neshaminy Presbyterian Church was established about > 1726 with William Tennent as its first pastor. Some of the early families > are identified as Jamison, Ramsey, Archibald, McCullough, McMicken, > Henderson and Wallace. > > Some of the settlers at the forks of the Neshaminy settlers most likely were > part of the settlement at the forks of the Delaware (Easton) in East Allen > Township, in 1737, which became known as the "Craig Settlement" with Warwick > as its center. Warwick Township had been formed 1733 by residents of > Middleburg Township. Some of these early families are identified as Craig, > Jamison, Baird, Stewart, Hair, Long, Weir, Armstrong, Gray, Graham and > Wallace. > > Lee Ramsey > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel Wilson > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:18 PM > To: Scotch-Irish Discussion List > Subject: Re: [S-I] Migration of 1718 group from Casco Bay to Northampton > Co., PA > > I too have been searching for some hard evidence of the migration from > Casco Bay to Northampton Co., PA. I haven't read Collier's book, but > I've seen a quote attributed to William Egle, former PA State Historian > and prolific writer of PA history. I don't have the exact quote on hand > but it was something in his attempt to explain the so-called "irish > Settlement" which began at Mt. Bethel, PA not far from Easton, PA, and > spread west to the Lehigh River around Allentown, PA. In his statement > he mentions the difficult winter at Casco Bay and the migration to > eastern PA. There is also an anecdote that the group got lost on the > way, and thought they were settling in NY, so they named their > settlement the "Hunter Settlement" supposedly in honor of the Governor > of NY at the time. A contingent from the Hunter Settlement moved on to > E. TN and settled around Greenville, Greene Co., TN ca. 1791, where they > founded the Mt. Bethel Presbyterian church, named in remembrance of > their former home in PA. If you want more specific information, let me > know, and I'll dig out what I have. > > Dan Wilson > > > From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH >>> toPA in 1719 >>> >>> > > >>>>> Below is an excerpt about the 1718 arrival of "the 5 ships" to give >>>>> the context. The bit of the excerpt that catches my attention is the >>>>> last sentence beginning "The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not >>>>> wait any longer...." Here's the paragraph: >>>>> >>>>> Elmer Roy Collier begins his book, Weir, Wear, and Ware, by saying, >>>>> "The... families petitioned in 1718 to the Governor of New England to >>>>> come to America...they arrived in Boston Harbor in 4 August 1718 but >>>>> were forbidden to land by the intolerant Puritans. ...Sixteen families >>>>> sailed to Casco Bay to claim a tract of land there but were frozen in >>>>> the Bay by early winter weather?When the ice broke in the Spring they >>>>> journeyed to Haverhill, Mass., where they heard of a fine tract of >>>>> land about 15 miles northeast called Nutfield?James Gregg and Robert >>>>> Weir sent a request to the Governor and Court, assembled at >>>>> Portsmouth, New Hampshire, for a township ten miles square. The >>>>> majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer and traveled >>>>> overland to the Scotts-Irish settlement at the Forks of the Delaware >>>>> (Northampton County, Pennsylvania)." >>>>> >>>>> Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New >>>>> Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay, ME? Who were >>>>> they, why there in particular, how did they get there? I am familiar >>>>> with the families who stayed and settled in Nutfield/Londonderry, NH >>>>> and environs. The idea makes sense that others, perhaps within the >>>>> same families, couldn't wait for the decision of Governor and Court, >>>>> not wanting to endure another tough winter as yet unsettled, and moved >>>>> on to PA, thus losing contact with siblings, cousins etc. in NH. But I >>>>> am out of my depth on PA! So any insights or help would be much >>>>> appreciated. >>>>> >>>>> Ruth >>>>> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

An interesting parallel. Fifteen or more families of the Palatines settled in the Mohawk Valley of New York made the trek overland from Schoharie to the region in then Lancaster County PA drained by Tulpehocken and Swatara creeks. Conrad Weiser wrote in his journal, "the people received news from the land at Swatara and Tulpehocken in Pennsylvania. Many of them came together, cut a way from Schoharie to the Susquehanna and brought their goods there and made canoes and journeyed down to the mouth of the Swatara Creek and drove their cattle overland in the spring of 1723. Thence they came to the Tulpehocken settlement; later others followed and settled there, at first without permission of the owner of the land or company, or from the Indians from whom the people had not yet bought the land." Weiser, Journal, as quoted in Walter A. Knittle, Early Eighteenth Century Palatine Emigration (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1937), 205-206. In a message dated 3/30/2010 2:45:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: This is fascinating, Dan. Maybe a Casco to PA migration is not a chimera! If you ever come upon the source and even the full quote at some point, I'd love to receive them. And I'd appreciate it if you'd remembered me in your future research, as I will you, from now on! What family surname are you tracking in this potential Casco to PA and thence to East TN? Mine is a County Londonderry Smith family. Current exploration in faraway East Tennessee (quite out of the normal comfort zone for me in research) is the result of DNA testing – as Linda reminds us very good value for the money spent! A stunning DNA match (66 markers out of 67) between a Smith with a strong paper trail to the Smith family probably on the 1718 Ulster ship that wintered in Casco Bay, settled in NH in 1719, and whose specific line emigrated to Quebec c1800 and an East Tennessee Smith, without much paper trail, but who *might* be connected to a Smith family in Northhampton, PA in the 1700s and migrated to NC and TN from there. These PA-NC-TN Smiths were Scotch-Irish and theoretically, might have split from the Smith family who remained in NH. That's the theoretical construct for analysis at the moment. Anybody with insight on *any* aspect of this, info much appreciated. Ruth Ottawa, Canada On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Daniel Wilson <[email protected]> wrote: > > I too have been searching for some hard evidence of the migration from > Casco Bay to Northampton Co., PA. I haven't read Collier's book, but > I've seen a quote attributed to William Egle, former PA State Historian > and prolific writer of PA history. I don't have the exact quote on hand > but it was something in his attempt to explain the so-called "irish > Settlement" which began at Mt. Bethel, PA not far from Easton, PA, and > spread west to the Lehigh River around Allentown, PA. In his statement > he mentions the difficult winter at Casco Bay and the migration to > eastern PA. There is also an anecdote that the group got lost on the > way, and thought they were settling in NY, so they named their > settlement the "Hunter Settlement" supposedly in honor of the Governor > of NY at the time. A contingent from the Hunter Settlement moved on to > E. TN and settled around Greenville, Greene Co., TN ca. 1791, where they > founded the Mt. Bethel Presbyterian church, named in remembrance of > their former home in PA. If you want more specific information, let me > know, and I'll dig out what I have. > > Dan Wilson >>From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> >>Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM >>To: <[email protected]> >>Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH to PA in 1719 >>Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay? >>Ruth ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks, Emalu....that was indeed my question. I am pretty excited as this may be my first documented "for sure" SI ancestor if I can prove that I do indeed descend from Elizabeth Morrison---daughter of Patrick Henry Morrison. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Marsha On Mar 30, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Quint Hart wrote: > I also have a Morrison line. My is Margaret Morrison born 1810 > daughter > of probably Charles Morrison she married a Dunlop and lived in > Belfast. It > is interesting as the 1880 U S census says that she was born in > Ireland, > her father was born in Ireland but her mother was born in Ohio. > If I understand your question. Morrison is Scottish. As so many > others > did, the family immigrated to Ireland. > > > Emalu > > > > > At 09:46 AM 3/30/2010 -0400, you wrote: >> I have just added a possible 5-gr-grandfather and 6-gr-grandfather to >> my ancestors. Because this is a VERY new possibility, I am just >> starting my research on this line. The younger man's name is Patrick >> Henry Morrison and his father's name is James Morrison. The family >> history books in my area that have articles submitted by researchers >> (and I realize are thus suspect) say that James and Rachel Morrison >> moved to Pittsylvania County, Virginia in the mid to late 1700's from >> Donegal. Now I realize that Donegal is part of Ulster Province, but >> NOT part of Northern Ireland---being instead a part of the Republic >> of >> Ireland. >> >> So the question here is do I suspect SI or do I suspect Irish for the >> surname Morrison coming out of Donegal? Please, I am not asking >> anyone to do my research for me, just looking for a small boost if >> anyone has this answer off the top of their heads.....I am mostly >> just >> curious at this very early part of my looking around. marsha in WV >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

This is fascinating, Dan. Maybe a Casco to PA migration is not a chimera! If you ever come upon the source and even the full quote at some point, I'd love to receive them. And I'd appreciate it if you'd remembered me in your future research, as I will you, from now on! What family surname are you tracking in this potential Casco to PA and thence to East TN? Mine is a County Londonderry Smith family. Current exploration in faraway East Tennessee (quite out of the normal comfort zone for me in research) is the result of DNA testing – as Linda reminds us very good value for the money spent! A stunning DNA match (66 markers out of 67) between a Smith with a strong paper trail to the Smith family probably on the 1718 Ulster ship that wintered in Casco Bay, settled in NH in 1719, and whose specific line emigrated to Quebec c1800 and an East Tennessee Smith, without much paper trail, but who *might* be connected to a Smith family in Northhampton, PA in the 1700s and migrated to NC and TN from there. These PA-NC-TN Smiths were Scotch-Irish and theoretically, might have split from the Smith family who remained in NH. That's the theoretical construct for analysis at the moment. Anybody with insight on *any* aspect of this, info much appreciated. Ruth Ottawa, Canada On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Daniel Wilson <[email protected]> wrote: > > I too have been searching for some hard evidence of the migration from > Casco Bay to Northampton Co., PA. I haven't read Collier's book, but > I've seen a quote attributed to William Egle, former PA State Historian > and prolific writer of PA history. I don't  have the exact quote on hand > but it was something in his attempt to explain the so-called "irish > Settlement" which began at Mt. Bethel, PA not far from Easton, PA, and > spread west to the Lehigh River around Allentown, PA. In his statement > he mentions the difficult winter at Casco Bay and the migration to > eastern PA. There is also an anecdote that the group got lost on the > way, and thought they were settling in NY, so they named their > settlement the "Hunter Settlement" supposedly in honor of the Governor > of NY at the time. A contingent from the Hunter Settlement moved on to > E. TN and settled around Greenville, Greene Co., TN ca. 1791, where they > founded the Mt. Bethel Presbyterian church, named in remembrance of > their former home in PA. If you want more specific information, let me > know, and I'll dig out what I have. > > Dan Wilson >>From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> >>Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM >>To: <[email protected]> >>Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH to PA in 1719 >>Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay? >>Ruth

On Mar 30, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Daniel Wilson wrote: > Lehigh River around Allentown, PA ==================== Can anyone tell me if there were BOYD'S in this migration.............or how I can look for that information? I have Boyd's of Allen , Pa. and the Lehigh Valley............... 1700's and early 1800's. Thanks Diane

Hi Ellen, The burnt courthouse scenario is an all too familiar one. It is the subject of endless lectures, articles, and even books. You need to stop using it as an excuse (like the rest of us <grin>) and get past it using good genealogical methodologies. Such an event can be overcome. You just need to know how. The first thing to do is google. In this case for things like burnt courthouse genealogy. I did that and came up with several things including http://inman.surnameweb.org/documents/looking.htm . The bottom line with burnt courthouses is that sooner or later some government comes along and wants to collect taxes. Unless they can figure out who is responsible for paying the taxes, many are likely to avoid it. So reconstruction of land records occurs rather fast. Assisting are families who want to inherit or continue with their high place in the social order as well as those whose enemies see the chaos as a chance to dispossess those families of their property. There was NOT a law in place (that I am aware of) requiring that property sales (deeds) be registered at the courthouse. I am not a North Carolina expert; I may be wrong, but I doubt it seriously. You COULD register the deed but you didn't have to. Eventually due to the difficulties of collecting taxes, etc, the states applied much pressure to get the court house used. But that's later on. The way you proved you owned property is you produced the deed. The real deed. The deed was copied into the courthouse records -- maybe. The real deed is the one your ancestor had. To prove he owned it after the fire, he showed up at the courthouse and had it recorded again. If he didn't have the deed (house burnt too, goat ate it, Uncle Bob used it for TP (toilet paper)), then you got some witnesses who swore an oath and testified. There are a zillion of these kinda cases all over the USA in court records. If the courthouse burnt up, it started again. There are also grants -- made by the colony. NC grants are a huge huge topic. I once encountered them in a project in Tennessee....They're not kept at the courthouse. Maybe it had some copies but those are state records and I do know they survive. Ditto for Virginia, PA, Maryland and all the places to the north where you should be looking. There are all kinds of records that are not kept at the county courthouse you can use and lots of articles and books that explain what they are and how to find them. However this is a heck of a lot of work. If you want fast results, then it's simple. Catch a male relative with the surname and test his Y chromosome. He has to have the Y chromosome of the early family, so make sure he descends on the male line. Don't have one, you say? Hogwash. Do some genealogy and FIND one! That's what we do <grin>. Genealogy! It costs $300 unless you hit on a sale. Test at www.familytreedna.com (largest database). You can join free as many projects as you want. Maybe the Ireland one. When the results arrive, the admins can usually figure out what quad of Ireland they're from. If Ulster, you are shuffled off to the Ulster Heritage project. Then you look for matches in that project, in NC projects, in family projects, etc. When you find matches, you can then look for the paper trail from A to B. Eliminates a lot of vacuuming up of records in places your ancestors never were. You can spend 20 years vacuuming records and copying them at 25 cents or more per page and not get anywhere, so you hire someone for the minimum amount -- which now is about $300 and they may or may not find something (toss the dice). Or you can do DNA testing NOW. You spend $300. You save money photocopying every piece of paper in the original colonies, and eventually, maybe in six weeks, maybe in a year, you will have a match and can start figuring out how they got from A to B. Even if you never get a match in the USA, you know your ancestor didn't match those guys. He's not a McCleary. But you'll know what he was and can work with those people to figure out who the Indian in the wood pile was. THAT you'll never learn any other way. Because the truth is even if all the courthouses hadn't burnt down, there could have never been a record made of where your ancestors came from, so sifting through records, will not solve this problem. Most colonial immigrations are NOT documented. They were not documented in 1719 when they hopped off the boat nor any other time unless by chance in oral or county histories, obits of pioneers, etc. So forget the courthouse and go track down a cousin. In six weeks, when your DNA results come in, you could know which family groups you match and which you don't, assuming others with the surname have tested. Check for a family project at www.familytreedna.com and find out. DNA is the only way to get results for certain, and it's fast and cheap too. If you have colonial migrants, then you need to do this. You can read through several courses on migration genealogy at www.genealogical.com/university.html and eventually you'll figure out there is no sure way to find their origins doing genealogy. There is using DNA -- so bag a cousin and then read the courses while the DNA is being tested. It'll give you something to do <grin>. Linda Merle

I also have a Morrison line. My is Margaret Morrison born 1810 daughter of probably Charles Morrison she married a Dunlop and lived in Belfast. It is interesting as the 1880 U S census says that she was born in Ireland, her father was born in Ireland but her mother was born in Ohio. If I understand your question. Morrison is Scottish. As so many others did, the family immigrated to Ireland. Emalu At 09:46 AM 3/30/2010 -0400, you wrote: >I have just added a possible 5-gr-grandfather and 6-gr-grandfather to >my ancestors. Because this is a VERY new possibility, I am just >starting my research on this line. The younger man's name is Patrick >Henry Morrison and his father's name is James Morrison. The family >history books in my area that have articles submitted by researchers >(and I realize are thus suspect) say that James and Rachel Morrison >moved to Pittsylvania County, Virginia in the mid to late 1700's from >Donegal. Now I realize that Donegal is part of Ulster Province, but >NOT part of Northern Ireland---being instead a part of the Republic of >Ireland. > >So the question here is do I suspect SI or do I suspect Irish for the >surname Morrison coming out of Donegal? Please, I am not asking >anyone to do my research for me, just looking for a small boost if >anyone has this answer off the top of their heads.....I am mostly just >curious at this very early part of my looking around. marsha in WV > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I too have been searching for some hard evidence of the migration from Casco Bay to Northampton Co., PA. I haven't read Collier's book, but I've seen a quote attributed to William Egle, former PA State Historian and prolific writer of PA history. I don't have the exact quote on hand but it was something in his attempt to explain the so-called "irish Settlement" which began at Mt. Bethel, PA not far from Easton, PA, and spread west to the Lehigh River around Allentown, PA. In his statement he mentions the difficult winter at Casco Bay and the migration to eastern PA. There is also an anecdote that the group got lost on the way, and thought they were settling in NY, so they named their settlement the "Hunter Settlement" supposedly in honor of the Governor of NY at the time. A contingent from the Hunter Settlement moved on to E. TN and settled around Greenville, Greene Co., TN ca. 1791, where they founded the Mt. Bethel Presbyterian church, named in remembrance of their former home in PA. If you want more specific information, let me know, and I'll dig out what I have. Dan Wilson From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM >> To: <[email protected]> >> Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH >> toPA in 1719 >> > >>> Below is an excerpt about the 1718 arrival of "the 5 ships" to give > >>> the context. The bit of the excerpt that catches my attention is the > >>> last sentence beginning "The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not > >>> wait any longer...." Here's the paragraph: > >>> > >>> Elmer Roy Collier begins his book, Weir, Wear, and Ware, by saying, > >>> "The... families petitioned in 1718 to the Governor of New England to > >>> come to America...they arrived in Boston Harbor in 4 August 1718 but > >>> were forbidden to land by the intolerant Puritans. ...Sixteen families > >>> sailed to Casco Bay to claim a tract of land there but were frozen in > >>> the Bay by early winter weather?When the ice broke in the Spring they > >>> journeyed to Haverhill, Mass., where they heard of a fine tract of > >>> land about 15 miles northeast called Nutfield?James Gregg and Robert > >>> Weir sent a request to the Governor and Court, assembled at > >>> Portsmouth, New Hampshire, for a township ten miles square. The > >>> majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer and traveled > >>> overland to the Scotts-Irish settlement at the Forks of the Delaware > >>> (Northampton County, Pennsylvania)." > >>> > >>> Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New > >>> Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay, ME? Who were > >>> they, why there in particular, how did they get there? I am familiar > >>> with the families who stayed and settled in Nutfield/Londonderry, NH > >>> and environs. The idea makes sense that others, perhaps within the > >>> same families, couldn't wait for the decision of Governor and Court, > >>> not wanting to endure another tough winter as yet unsettled, and moved > >>> on to PA, thus losing contact with siblings, cousins etc. in NH. But I > >>> am out of my depth on PA! So any insights or help would be much > >>> appreciated. > >>> > >>> Ruth

I have just added a possible 5-gr-grandfather and 6-gr-grandfather to my ancestors. Because this is a VERY new possibility, I am just starting my research on this line. The younger man's name is Patrick Henry Morrison and his father's name is James Morrison. The family history books in my area that have articles submitted by researchers (and I realize are thus suspect) say that James and Rachel Morrison moved to Pittsylvania County, Virginia in the mid to late 1700's from Donegal. Now I realize that Donegal is part of Ulster Province, but NOT part of Northern Ireland---being instead a part of the Republic of Ireland. So the question here is do I suspect SI or do I suspect Irish for the surname Morrison coming out of Donegal? Please, I am not asking anyone to do my research for me, just looking for a small boost if anyone has this answer off the top of their heads.....I am mostly just curious at this very early part of my looking around. marsha in WV

We had a McCrary which turned out to be a McCurry. This spelling thing has been a real problem and caused us to go down the wrong road for about 40 years! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellie Dowling" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:08 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration fromNH toPA in 1719 > Hi Linda, thanks for taking so much time to answer my, I don't know what > to > do comment. I should have let you know why I have a snag in the McCleary > family search. I have traced them back to North Carolina during the civil > war and even one tax list after, and then other census from then till now, > but my snag is I can't figure out how to go further back to tie the > McCleary > family elsewhere to the one in North Carolina. The North Carolina county > courthouse where the McCleary family lived was bombed during the civil war > and burnt down. all records lost, and then it burnt 3 more times... I can > not seem to find who the father of Jefferson McCleary, also spelled > McClorry, and MCClary on different census papers. Not doing such a hot > job > of figuring out who his wife is either. she must have been dead by the > time > the records that have survived were taken. I did read a bit of a history > book online that said a lot of Scotts that came to North Carolina > actually > came inland through Tennessee, but Jefferson lists he was born in North > Carolina. I have found records in other counties of McCleary or some > derivative thereof, but no one claims Jefferson on their family . I'm > stumped. I figured I would just suearch out every MCCleary etc I can find > from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and I might get lucky and find > something. Right now it is guesswork. The Dowling name means nothing as > far as ancestry goes... My husbands father and his twin sister, were > adopted > by the Dowlings. His dads adoptive mother made him promise to never look > for his genetic parents. Thankfully his wife finally talked him into > letting her look when he was 70 years old. We have been able to trace his > blood family, The Raffields, and the Morris family we are still working > on. > The Morris side was possibly Irish but I have more work to trace in > America > before I try that. The Raffields are probably English, but again I haven't > tried to do to much hunting that way yet. I use Ancestry.com, but have > only been working about 4 months. And that is on lots of different family > names. I have used family search on line, and genealogy.net for my side. > My tree is looking like a spider web. I have my tree to the point where > many ancestors have to be hunted for overseas. But I still have to try to > get to one of those ancestry help places that family search has. There is > one in our town, but their schedule and mine haven't fit together yet. > > I have noticed on ancestry.com that the family lists from other > peoples > trees don't have a lot of facts connected sometimes. Many have names and > dates all mixed up. But they have helped give me directional hints > though. > And most of the names panned out as being family, if not in the exact > order > I found them in. I am searching family in Lithuania, Germany/ Prussia and > Sweden, on my side. Have even tried writing some people living who have > my > family name and living in the same towns my family hailed from. Hoping > they > answer me. I have my Swedish side to where they came over to America, but > I > haven't invested the time or money yet to sign up to SVAR. That whole > directions entices but baffles me. I am signed up to a Swedish list, and > have Swedish word lists etc. But haven't worked up the courage to dive > in. > My tree is on Ancestry.com. It is the Auge,Vitz, Plinsky Thomander, Nyberg > etc tree. LOL. I have gotten some family to pitch in and share what they > know. Sometimes I think I'm nuts to have tried to go so many directions so > fast, but , I don't know how long I will have a subscription, so I am > hunting everybody for everybody. Tell ya what, the more I learn the > more > I realize I don't know enough.. I still have 2 McCleary ladies left in > their 80's, but they have actually tried to find out things years ago by > traveling to the towns where the McCleary's lived in North Carolina. but > they ran into the fire in the courthouse problem, and could go no farther. > Their father was dead and there was no one to ask. I have been able to > find > out that their dad Jordan Winfield McCleary was illegitimate . so I have > no > idea who his dad was. I figure it was somebody in the farming area where > his mother lived and worked in other peoples homes. Her name was Amanda > McCleary, and through the census records that list her, I was able to find > her siblings and her dads name. they lived in a place called MCCleary > swamp, but I can't find it on any map, in North Carolina, but I have the > counties they lived in. Before the last courthouse fire, when my husbands > mother and her sister went hunting, they found a certificate of bastardy > for > a McCleary boy child, they thought might have been for their father. They > have long since lost it. I am enjoying the hunt too, but I can't imagine > doing this for a living. the time involved is enormous. Anyway, thanks > for writing, sorry I didn't make a clearer comment on what you wrote... I > really do appreciate your taking the time to write me that long letter. > and you have mentioned paths to take that I have yet to follow but plan > to. > If I could only find that connection in the McCleary family from Jefferson > on back. I found a Thomas Jefferson McCleary age 26 on an 1830 Maryland > census... but my Jefferson was born in 1814, as per the 1860 census that > lists him as age 46. It calls him McClorry on that one, but it's him. The > batches of first names in the family tie together the various census > misspellings of the last name. I even found people that may have been his > brothers or cousins, but haven't found them back further either, yet. I > was hoping if I couldn't follow his trail, I could hit on it with extended > family from the same area and census. The area I found them in was Cool > Springs, Washington County, NorthCarolina, Post office Mackeys Ferry, and > also Harrington County Div.2. dist. 1 N.C., and the northern district > 1850 > Census Rockeartto, County, N.C. or something like that, can't read it very > good. If you have any idea how to look back farther I'm all ears....or in > this case eyes since we are writing, not talking. LOL. > > There are some colonial ancestors on my husbands side as well, but none on > mine.. the hardest part of waiting so long to start hunting is I forget > what > I've found and where I found it so quickly... I am trying to document it > all > as I go along... but I have gone so many directions in such a short time I > have well nigh driven myself crazy!!!! In your business do you only hunt > Scotch Irish, or do you hunt other countries too??? Well thanks > again... > Ellie > From: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:00 AM > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from > NH toPA in 1719 > >> Hi Ellen, It's hard to give you specific advice because we don't know >> what >> info you got! >> >> At this point you want to post : "Okay, I know my great grandpa Scott was >> living in Pohokan, Nebraska in 1884 and his daughter said they came from >> ....." >> >> That's important stuff to document. Right now, before anyone else passes >> on to the great beyond. My great uncle Ralph is now gone and we don't >> know >> the source of his story that one ancestress of ours had a twin brother >> who >> set off for the gold rush in 1849 and was never hard from. Family >> believed >> he was murdered at a tavern. Digging up the area for a street car line, >> the town found skeletons. Good story? BAD story so far. Ie ancestress was >> supposedly born in Scotland but there is no baptism for her -- and none >> for a twin brother. No twin brother named in any wills or deeds. Could be >> another ancester and the story got attached to the wrong person. Or Uncle >> Ralph is right. Donno.....we'll have to channel him if we want to know. I >> wonder if that works? >> >> I'm jumping ahead. It's like a murder investigation. You got to collect >> all the clues and info, but then you need to realize these are not facts. >> These are clues. Some clues are misleading. Some clues, even if >> misleading, can lead you to the murderer anyway. Or a different crime >> scene altogether. >> >> So then you ask 'How do I know great grandpa Scott was living in Pohokan? >> You check the censuses. >> You migh think this is a two minute no-brainer, what with the indexes at >> Ancestry.com. No. often you can't find them either due to bad indexing, >> bad census taking, inaccurate information, inexperienced searching (on >> your part). So when this happens (and it will) don't get depressed and >> don't give up. >> >> As you gather evidence, you must learn all about records: what exists, >> where to find them, how to interpret them. Knowing how to find this >> information is not genetic. We are not bees who are born, eh, hatched, >> knowing what they need to know to accomplish bee-tasks. So if you haven't >> received training in this stuff, you don't know how to do it, even if >> your >> Cousin Alma knew and she told you. That's because things are changing >> fast. If you try to do genealogy like Cousin Alma, you won't get very >> far. >> That's why she didn't and left you all those dead ends. You live in the >> electronic age and you can literally accomplish more in one afternoon >> than >> she could in her whole life of writing letters to courthouses and distant >> cousins. >> >> So you need to get educated. This isn't a grim as it sounds. There is >> lots >> of free information at www.rootsweb.com and www.familysearch.org, >> www.ancestry.com, and lots of information you should get, even if you >> have >> to pay for it. You should take some classes, visit your local family >> history center, and absorb new information -- every day. You can >> subscribe >> to free enews letters over the INternet and every day get a couple with >> short, digestible articles. You can learn to use your local library to >> check expensive standard works. On and on! Learnng can be fun. The >> genealogy industry also holds conferences -- local ones, regional, >> national, >> etc, which are great places to learn fast. Get invovled in the local >> genealogy societies too. >> >> There are people who try to do this for a living, though few actually >> make >> a decent living at it. The rest expect these guys to produce results FAST >> so they tend to be better educated. The number of people who can afford >> to >> hire someone else to do their family history is quite small. Other than >> poverty, the one thing professionals have in common and that separates >> them from the 'family historian' is that pros keep learning. On the pros >> lists, they are constantly looking for conferences, cheap copies of >> lectures, magazines, books, etc, because every day they learn even though >> they may be recognized leaders in their field. On the other hand, family >> historians often think they already know it all and get quite huffy if >> you >> suggest they don't. NO one knows it all. >> >> So what's important now for you is to start collecting what info you do >> have in the family. Oral history dies with the person unless you collect >> it. Collect it and source it (Aunt Mary Hart....) and if you can ask the >> person how they know it, it might lead to more discovery. Then you model >> it in genealogy software. You can get several free. I like Legacy >> (www.legacyfamilytree.com). Then you can print out a zillion updated, >> correct family group sheets for the family reunion, send people PDF >> reports, gedcom your data to people -- it's easy. A lot easier than in >> Cousin Alma's day. I do genealogy professionally...what sucks (among >> other >> things) is to get a pile of papers in the mail (sources! I think). Wrong. >> Family group sheets -- and they are all different. What's the most up to >> date version? WHo knows! The client doesn't know either. My inherited >> family group sheets are a mess too. MINE I print out and they have a date >> on them <grin>!!! Voila. I or a grand neice can arrange them >> chronologically. Hopefully the later ones are righter than the earlier. >> >> Every genealogy 'problem' has standard ways to resolve it. These are >> taught at conferences, in books, in free webpages and courses, etc. >> Usually you have to check standard sources. Most of the time clients who >> employ me either haven't checked those sources or if they did, didn't >> document that they did. So they basically haven't done the job and, >> having >> done it, failed to document the findings. Even a negative result is >> important. It says something. If you try to find an ancestor in the book >> that documents British aliens living in the USA in 1812 it means >> something: he wasn't here or he wasn't an alien. (The book could be wrong >> or he could have been hiding out as well). This is important info to >> know. >> Can you prove he wasn't here? Was he in the army? Can you find him back >> home? Was he old enough to be documented or could his father be this man >> who lived in your area and who is documented?? So you found him or rather >> his father, but didn't realize it? >> >> You need to understand the standard sources to check for things. The >> Family history library's free guides can help or you can pay $$$ to buy >> some books to learn these. Legacy (paid verson) also will tell you what >> to >> check and where they are. I cheat a lot and use it<grin>!! >> >> If you have colonial (or near colonial) ancestors, you will most likely >> never find a document that says where precisely they came from ("Ireland" >> on an early naturalization don't count: you can get that from the >> census). >> That's because no one ever made those documents. You can search for 100 >> years for a document that never existed -- and oddly, never find it. Only >> the naive are impressed when you sound off at a family reunion" "I have >> searched for immigration information for sixty years now". Smarter to >> search for 5 minutes at Ancestry and then moving on to really locating >> the >> family origins in a productive manner. >> >> The way we locate the place of origin is to use clues. If you don't have >> any because you didn't collect any or you don't know which are correct >> and >> which appear fabricated -- you don't get too far. It's episode2 of the >> season. The rest of the episodes you spend interviewing and >> re-interviewing and staring at charts and driving around following up on >> 'aha's. We know that. We watch TV. >> >> A good book is Rising's "A Family Tree Problem Solver" -- it shows how >> you >> use indirect evidence to figure out where they came from. She uses I >> think >> it is Missouri records to trace people back to Tennessee and Virginia. >> The >> technique is much the same for hopping over the pond. >> >> You can't explain this all in an email. And you can't learn it all in a >> day either! It takes years and years of practice and learning, so the >> answers are not here. One good place to start and then revisit often are >> the free courses at www.genealogical.com/university.html . I still visit >> these...when? When I'm stuck! Being stuck means you need to go learn some >> more. Sometimes something you overlooked the first 10 times will be your >> savior. So it's circular, like an English mystery where the detective is >> always driving past the same fields as he returns to interview the >> witnesses, again and again. >> >> The long version will be put into a book someday. If you don't buy books >> you won't know how to do it. I have (meanly) said at times that my plan >> is >> to the part of my family history that I discovered in a journal -- and >> thereby hide it from all the family as they don't read genealogy journals >> or know about the index to them (PERSI). Hehehe..... And send all my >> notes >> to the Family History Library who will microfilm it and put it in their >> catalog but my family never visits the first place you should always go >> for family history -- the family history library (largest collection of >> genealogy on the planet -- why wouldn't you go, esp. since 'going' means >> visiting >> www.familysearch.org ?). Hehehehehe....oh, I'm a mean one, I am <grin>! >> >> Tell me about the Dowlings. There are English Dowlings and there are >> Irish. The Irish are in Ulster and I got one. In Ireland the name is >> believed to be a variant of "Doran", an Irish name, but without >> investigation who knows. All I know is the marriage of my ancestress to >> Robert Norris about 1820 in Derry, that produced "Dowling Norris". He was >> killed in the American Civil War. Don't know who her people were, yet. >> >> Linda Merle >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ellie Dowling" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:58:55 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Subject: Re: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration >> from >> NH toPA in 1719 >> >> Hi, I haven't heard of this, but have just begun to hunt relatives, and >> had >> no idea where to begin. I had originally thought the family of McCleary >> had >> come over much later, but now I think they may have come from >> Pennsylvania... Thanks for sharing this hint.... Now to try to figure out >> how to follow up on it... should be interesting. Ellie >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM >> To: <[email protected]> >> Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH >> toPA in 1719 >> >>> Below is an excerpt about the 1718 arrival of "the 5 ships" to give >>> the context. The bit of the excerpt that catches my attention is the >>> last sentence beginning "The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not >>> wait any longer...." Here's the paragraph: >>> >>> Elmer Roy Collier begins his book, Weir, Wear, and Ware, by saying, >>> "The... families petitioned in 1718 to the Governor of New England to >>> come to America...they arrived in Boston Harbor in 4 August 1718 but >>> were forbidden to land by the intolerant Puritans. ...Sixteen families >>> sailed to Casco Bay to claim a tract of land there but were frozen in >>> the Bay by early winter weather…When the ice broke in the Spring they >>> journeyed to Haverhill, Mass., where they heard of a fine tract of >>> land about 15 miles northeast called Nutfield…James Gregg and Robert >>> Weir sent a request to the Governor and Court, assembled at >>> Portsmouth, New Hampshire, for a township ten miles square. The >>> majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer and traveled >>> overland to the Scotts-Irish settlement at the Forks of the Delaware >>> (Northampton County, Pennsylvania)." >>> >>> Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New >>> Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay, ME? Who were >>> they, why there in particular, how did they get there? I am familiar >>> with the families who stayed and settled in Nutfield/Londonderry, NH >>> and environs. The idea makes sense that others, perhaps within the >>> same families, couldn't wait for the decision of Governor and Court, >>> not wanting to endure another tough winter as yet unsettled, and moved >>> on to PA, thus losing contact with siblings, cousins etc. in NH. But I >>> am out of my depth on PA! So any insights or help would be much >>> appreciated. >>> >>> Ruth >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. 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ya know Ellie one thing not mentioned yet in helping your search would be to look at the cencus at the time of his birth or before of the soundex for the surname JEFFERSON.......the father could have been a neighbor like you thought who she worked for.....she could have given the boy that name as first name..if it isnt in any other record for the McClearys family line it could be the father???? Just an idea. Many families used the surnames of mothers and grandmothers for given names....Just an idea. Sarah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellie Dowling" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 2:01 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] McClary/McCleary of NIR and early 1700's America > LOL!!! I loved the line about being an expert on McCleary's in America! > I had just about figured out I was going to have to look at every McCleary > and then make the best guess as to what family Jefferson came out > of...Thanks for the advice.. I have looked at some of the McCleary names. > I > actually looked at some of them before I found Jefferson, but how do you > connect them when you are missing a generation of records. All I could > think to do is try to see if some first names ran generationally. Then I > could make a fair guess that they were of the same line.. but that really > doesn't prove anything. I never tried to Google any names yet. I'll give > it a try. It would be the most wonderful gift to give my mother -in-law > if > I could find her ancestors. I went to an Irish free site that had lots of > records, but I didn't find one McCleary. Scotland had McClearys listed > under the covering of clan Cameron. Wish I had a better memory at this > stage of the game. I am still trying to get a handle on the timings of > the > Scotts Irish upheavals. They seemed to come in waves to America, in the > 1700's and early 1800's . I have been cramming so much in this 56 year > old > brain so fast, not all of it is staying. or staying in the right order. > At > least I'm exercising my brain. Thanks a bunch, . Ellie > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:34 AM > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [S-I] McClary/McCleary of NIR and early 1700's America > >> Ellie, >> Linda is right in regards to your research needs and area of focus. I >> wanted to just let you know you that your Scotch-Irish focus may not be >> too >> far of the beaten path. >> There are 4 documented McClary families in early 1700's in New England >> 1718- Thomas McClary (b.1706) from Londonderry, NIR to Windham, New >> Hampshire brother of >> 1718- Daniel McCleary (b. 1708 in Maghera, Londonderry, Ireland) of >> Methuen, Mass. died same 1788. >> 1727- Andrew McClary from Londonderry, NIR to Nottingham, NH >> 1751- David McClary from Ireland, living Boston, Mass. died Bedford, NH >> A John McCleary and Alexander MaClery are in Boston, Mass 1730 to 1739 >> >> There are online Pennsylvania records that may give you access to McClary >> family info. Google is also a major FREE source. try McClary and >> Lancaster >> and you'll find the easy ones quickly. >> DON'T spend a lot of time reading every hit. Just get enough to find >> proof the family was in the right place and see if you get lucky and >> someone >> mentions a specific family going south to VA and NC. I have the exact >> same >> problem in VT in 1804. Bastard or abandoned son living with Mom but who >> has >> no father. I did the same surname searching. So... I can state his >> grandfather with about 95% proof, but can't connect to the five sons. I >> may never >> find it but I know it's there :) A miracle DNA match may be my only >> hope. >> So you got the right ethnic group on face value. Follow Linda's ideas >> and some general searching like above and you may hit paydirt. If not >> you'll >> be an expert on early McClary's in America :) >> >> Colin Brooks >> The 1718 Project >> >> In a message dated 3/30/2010 12:09:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> Hi Linda, thanks for taking so much time to answer my, I don't know >> what >> to >> do comment. I should have let you know why I have a snag in the >> McCleary >> family search. I have traced them back to North Carolina during the >> civil >> war and even one tax list after, and then other census from then till >> now, >> but my snag is I can't figure out how to go further back to tie the >> McCleary >> family elsewhere to the one in North Carolina. The North Carolina >> county >> courthouse where the McCleary family lived was bombed during the civil >> war >> and burnt down. all records lost, and then it burnt 3 more times... I >> can >> not seem to find who the father of Jefferson McCleary, also spelled >> McClorry, and MCClary on different census papers. Not doing such a hot >> job >> of figuring out who his wife is either. she must have been dead by the >> time >> the records that have survived were taken. I did read a bit of a >> history >> book online that said a lot of Scotts that came to North Carolina >> actually >> came inland through Tennessee, but Jefferson lists he was born in North >> Carolina. I have found records in other counties of McCleary or some >> derivative thereof, but no one claims Jefferson on their family . I'm >> stumped. I figured I would just suearch out every MCCleary etc I can >> find >> from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and I might get lucky and find >> something. Right now it is guesswork. >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> If I could only find that connection in the McCleary family from >> Jefferson >> on back. I found a Thomas Jefferson McCleary age 26 on an 1830 >> Maryland >> census... but my Jefferson was born in 1814, as per the 1860 census >> that >> lists him as age 46. It calls him McClorry on that one, but it's him. >> The >> batches of first names in the family tie together the various census >> misspellings of the last name. I even found people that may have been >> his >> brothers or cousins, but haven't found them back further either, yet. >> I >> was hoping if I couldn't follow his trail, I could hit on it with >> extended >> family from the same area and census. The area I found them in was Cool >> Springs, Washington County, NorthCarolina, Post office Mackeys Ferry, >> and >> also Harrington County Div.2. dist. 1 N.C., and the northern district >> 1850 >> Census Rockeartto, County, N.C. or something like that, can't read it >> very >> good. If you have any idea how to look back farther I'm all ears....or >> in >> this case eyes since we are writing, not talking. LOL. >> >> There are some colonial ancestors on my husbands side as well, but none >> on >> mine.. the hardest part of waiting so long to start hunting is I forget >> what >> I've found and where I found it so quickly... I am trying to document it >> all >> as I go along... but I have gone so many directions in such a short time >> I >> have well nigh driven myself crazy!!!! In your business do you only >> hunt >> Scotch Irish, or do you hunt other countries too??? Well thanks >> again... >> Ellie >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

LOL!!! I loved the line about being an expert on McCleary's in America! I had just about figured out I was going to have to look at every McCleary and then make the best guess as to what family Jefferson came out of...Thanks for the advice.. I have looked at some of the McCleary names. I actually looked at some of them before I found Jefferson, but how do you connect them when you are missing a generation of records. All I could think to do is try to see if some first names ran generationally. Then I could make a fair guess that they were of the same line.. but that really doesn't prove anything. I never tried to Google any names yet. I'll give it a try. It would be the most wonderful gift to give my mother -in-law if I could find her ancestors. I went to an Irish free site that had lots of records, but I didn't find one McCleary. Scotland had McClearys listed under the covering of clan Cameron. Wish I had a better memory at this stage of the game. I am still trying to get a handle on the timings of the Scotts Irish upheavals. They seemed to come in waves to America, in the 1700's and early 1800's . I have been cramming so much in this 56 year old brain so fast, not all of it is staying. or staying in the right order. At least I'm exercising my brain. Thanks a bunch, . Ellie -------------------------------------------------- From: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:34 AM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] McClary/McCleary of NIR and early 1700's America > Ellie, > Linda is right in regards to your research needs and area of focus. I > wanted to just let you know you that your Scotch-Irish focus may not be > too > far of the beaten path. > There are 4 documented McClary families in early 1700's in New England > 1718- Thomas McClary (b.1706) from Londonderry, NIR to Windham, New > Hampshire brother of > 1718- Daniel McCleary (b. 1708 in Maghera, Londonderry, Ireland) of > Methuen, Mass. died same 1788. > 1727- Andrew McClary from Londonderry, NIR to Nottingham, NH > 1751- David McClary from Ireland, living Boston, Mass. died Bedford, NH > A John McCleary and Alexander MaClery are in Boston, Mass 1730 to 1739 > > There are online Pennsylvania records that may give you access to McClary > family info. Google is also a major FREE source. try McClary and Lancaster > and you'll find the easy ones quickly. > DON'T spend a lot of time reading every hit. Just get enough to find > proof the family was in the right place and see if you get lucky and > someone > mentions a specific family going south to VA and NC. I have the exact > same > problem in VT in 1804. Bastard or abandoned son living with Mom but who > has > no father. I did the same surname searching. So... I can state his > grandfather with about 95% proof, but can't connect to the five sons. I > may never > find it but I know it's there :) A miracle DNA match may be my only hope. > So you got the right ethnic group on face value. Follow Linda's ideas > and some general searching like above and you may hit paydirt. If not > you'll > be an expert on early McClary's in America :) > > Colin Brooks > The 1718 Project > > In a message dated 3/30/2010 12:09:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hi Linda, thanks for taking so much time to answer my, I don't know what > to > do comment. I should have let you know why I have a snag in the McCleary > family search. I have traced them back to North Carolina during the > civil > war and even one tax list after, and then other census from then till > now, > but my snag is I can't figure out how to go further back to tie the > McCleary > family elsewhere to the one in North Carolina. The North Carolina county > courthouse where the McCleary family lived was bombed during the civil > war > and burnt down. all records lost, and then it burnt 3 more times... I > can > not seem to find who the father of Jefferson McCleary, also spelled > McClorry, and MCClary on different census papers. Not doing such a hot > job > of figuring out who his wife is either. she must have been dead by the > time > the records that have survived were taken. I did read a bit of a history > book online that said a lot of Scotts that came to North Carolina > actually > came inland through Tennessee, but Jefferson lists he was born in North > Carolina. I have found records in other counties of McCleary or some > derivative thereof, but no one claims Jefferson on their family . I'm > stumped. I figured I would just suearch out every MCCleary etc I can > find > from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and I might get lucky and find > something. Right now it is guesswork. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > If I could only find that connection in the McCleary family from > Jefferson > on back. I found a Thomas Jefferson McCleary age 26 on an 1830 > Maryland > census... but my Jefferson was born in 1814, as per the 1860 census that > lists him as age 46. It calls him McClorry on that one, but it's him. > The > batches of first names in the family tie together the various census > misspellings of the last name. I even found people that may have been > his > brothers or cousins, but haven't found them back further either, yet. I > was hoping if I couldn't follow his trail, I could hit on it with > extended > family from the same area and census. The area I found them in was Cool > Springs, Washington County, NorthCarolina, Post office Mackeys Ferry, and > also Harrington County Div.2. dist. 1 N.C., and the northern district > 1850 > Census Rockeartto, County, N.C. or something like that, can't read it very > good. If you have any idea how to look back farther I'm all ears....or > in > this case eyes since we are writing, not talking. LOL. > > There are some colonial ancestors on my husbands side as well, but none > on > mine.. the hardest part of waiting so long to start hunting is I forget > what > I've found and where I found it so quickly... I am trying to document it > all > as I go along... but I have gone so many directions in such a short time > I > have well nigh driven myself crazy!!!! In your business do you only hunt > Scotch Irish, or do you hunt other countries too??? Well thanks > again... > Ellie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

LOL!!! I loved the line about being an expert on McCleary's in America! I had just about figured out I was going to have to look at every McCleary and then make the best guess as to what family Jefferson came out of...Thanks for the advice.. I have looked at some of the McCleary names. I actually looked at some of them before I found Jefferson, but how do you connect them when you are missing a generation of records. All I could think to do is try to see if some first names ran generationally. Then I could make a fair guess that they were of the same line.. but that really doesn't prove anything. I never tried to Google any names yet. I'll give it a try. It would be the most wonderful gift to give my mother -in-law if I could find her ancestors. I went to an Irish free site that had lots of records, but I didn't find one McCleary. Scotland had McClearys listed under the covering of clan Cameron. Wish I had a better memory at this stage of the game. I am still trying to get a handle on the timings of the Scotts Irish upheavals. They seemed to come in waves to America, in the 1700's and early 1800's . I have been cramming so much in this 56 year old brain so fast, not all of it is staying. or staying in the right order. At least I'm exercising my brain. Thanks a bunch, . Ellie -------------------------------------------------- From: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:34 AM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] McClary/McCleary of NIR and early 1700's America > Ellie, > Linda is right in regards to your research needs and area of focus. I > wanted to just let you know you that your Scotch-Irish focus may not be > too > far of the beaten path. > There are 4 documented McClary families in early 1700's in New England > 1718- Thomas McClary (b.1706) from Londonderry, NIR to Windham, New > Hampshire brother of > 1718- Daniel McCleary (b. 1708 in Maghera, Londonderry, Ireland) of > Methuen, Mass. died same 1788. > 1727- Andrew McClary from Londonderry, NIR to Nottingham, NH > 1751- David McClary from Ireland, living Boston, Mass. died Bedford, NH > A John McCleary and Alexander MaClery are in Boston, Mass 1730 to 1739 > > There are online Pennsylvania records that may give you access to McClary > family info. Google is also a major FREE source. try McClary and Lancaster > and you'll find the easy ones quickly. > DON'T spend a lot of time reading every hit. Just get enough to find > proof the family was in the right place and see if you get lucky and > someone > mentions a specific family going south to VA and NC. I have the exact > same > problem in VT in 1804. Bastard or abandoned son living with Mom but who > has > no father. I did the same surname searching. So... I can state his > grandfather with about 95% proof, but can't connect to the five sons. I > may never > find it but I know it's there :) A miracle DNA match may be my only hope. > So you got the right ethnic group on face value. Follow Linda's ideas > and some general searching like above and you may hit paydirt. If not > you'll > be an expert on early McClary's in America :) > > Colin Brooks > The 1718 Project > > In a message dated 3/30/2010 12:09:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hi Linda, thanks for taking so much time to answer my, I don't know what > to > do comment. I should have let you know why I have a snag in the McCleary > family search. I have traced them back to North Carolina during the > civil > war and even one tax list after, and then other census from then till > now, > but my snag is I can't figure out how to go further back to tie the > McCleary > family elsewhere to the one in North Carolina. The North Carolina county > courthouse where the McCleary family lived was bombed during the civil > war > and burnt down. all records lost, and then it burnt 3 more times... I > can > not seem to find who the father of Jefferson McCleary, also spelled > McClorry, and MCClary on different census papers. Not doing such a hot > job > of figuring out who his wife is either. she must have been dead by the > time > the records that have survived were taken. I did read a bit of a history > book online that said a lot of Scotts that came to North Carolina > actually > came inland through Tennessee, but Jefferson lists he was born in North > Carolina. I have found records in other counties of McCleary or some > derivative thereof, but no one claims Jefferson on their family . I'm > stumped. I figured I would just suearch out every MCCleary etc I can > find > from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and I might get lucky and find > something. Right now it is guesswork. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > If I could only find that connection in the McCleary family from > Jefferson > on back. I found a Thomas Jefferson McCleary age 26 on an 1830 > Maryland > census... but my Jefferson was born in 1814, as per the 1860 census that > lists him as age 46. It calls him McClorry on that one, but it's him. > The > batches of first names in the family tie together the various census > misspellings of the last name. I even found people that may have been > his > brothers or cousins, but haven't found them back further either, yet. I > was hoping if I couldn't follow his trail, I could hit on it with > extended > family from the same area and census. The area I found them in was Cool > Springs, Washington County, NorthCarolina, Post office Mackeys Ferry, and > also Harrington County Div.2. dist. 1 N.C., and the northern district > 1850 > Census Rockeartto, County, N.C. or something like that, can't read it very > good. If you have any idea how to look back farther I'm all ears....or > in > this case eyes since we are writing, not talking. LOL. > > There are some colonial ancestors on my husbands side as well, but none > on > mine.. the hardest part of waiting so long to start hunting is I forget > what > I've found and where I found it so quickly... I am trying to document it > all > as I go along... but I have gone so many directions in such a short time > I > have well nigh driven myself crazy!!!! In your business do you only hunt > Scotch Irish, or do you hunt other countries too??? Well thanks > again... > Ellie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

LOL!!! I loved the line about being an expert on McCleary's in America! I had just about figured out I was going to have to look at every McCleary and then make the best guess as to what family Jefferson came out of...Thanks for the advice.. I have looked at some of the McCleary names. I actually looked at some of them before I found Jefferson, but how do you connect them when you are missing a generation of records. All I could think to do is try to see if some first names ran generationally. Then I could make a fair guess that they were of the same line.. but that really doesn't prove anything. I never tried to Google any names yet. I'll give it a try. It would be the most wonderful gift to give my mother -in-law if I could find her ancestors. I went to an Irish free site that had lots of records, but I didn't find one McCleary. Scotland had McClearys listed under the covering of clan Cameron. Wish I had a better memory at this stage of the game. I am still trying to get a handle on the timings of the Scotts Irish upheavals. They seemed to come in waves to America, in the 1700's and early 1800's . I have been cramming so much in this 56 year old brain so fast, not all of it is staying. or staying in the right order. At least I'm exercising my brain. Thanks a bunch, . Ellie -------------------------------------------------- From: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 1:34 AM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] McClary/McCleary of NIR and early 1700's America > Ellie, > Linda is right in regards to your research needs and area of focus. I > wanted to just let you know you that your Scotch-Irish focus may not be > too > far of the beaten path. > There are 4 documented McClary families in early 1700's in New England > 1718- Thomas McClary (b.1706) from Londonderry, NIR to Windham, New > Hampshire brother of > 1718- Daniel McCleary (b. 1708 in Maghera, Londonderry, Ireland) of > Methuen, Mass. died same 1788. > 1727- Andrew McClary from Londonderry, NIR to Nottingham, NH > 1751- David McClary from Ireland, living Boston, Mass. died Bedford, NH > A John McCleary and Alexander MaClery are in Boston, Mass 1730 to 1739 > > There are online Pennsylvania records that may give you access to McClary > family info. Google is also a major FREE source. try McClary and Lancaster > and you'll find the easy ones quickly. > DON'T spend a lot of time reading every hit. Just get enough to find > proof the family was in the right place and see if you get lucky and > someone > mentions a specific family going south to VA and NC. I have the exact > same > problem in VT in 1804. Bastard or abandoned son living with Mom but who > has > no father. I did the same surname searching. So... I can state his > grandfather with about 95% proof, but can't connect to the five sons. I > may never > find it but I know it's there :) A miracle DNA match may be my only hope. > So you got the right ethnic group on face value. Follow Linda's ideas > and some general searching like above and you may hit paydirt. If not > you'll > be an expert on early McClary's in America :) > > Colin Brooks > The 1718 Project > > In a message dated 3/30/2010 12:09:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Hi Linda, thanks for taking so much time to answer my, I don't know what > to > do comment. I should have let you know why I have a snag in the McCleary > family search. I have traced them back to North Carolina during the > civil > war and even one tax list after, and then other census from then till > now, > but my snag is I can't figure out how to go further back to tie the > McCleary > family elsewhere to the one in North Carolina. The North Carolina county > courthouse where the McCleary family lived was bombed during the civil > war > and burnt down. all records lost, and then it burnt 3 more times... I > can > not seem to find who the father of Jefferson McCleary, also spelled > McClorry, and MCClary on different census papers. Not doing such a hot > job > of figuring out who his wife is either. she must have been dead by the > time > the records that have survived were taken. I did read a bit of a history > book online that said a lot of Scotts that came to North Carolina > actually > came inland through Tennessee, but Jefferson lists he was born in North > Carolina. I have found records in other counties of McCleary or some > derivative thereof, but no one claims Jefferson on their family . I'm > stumped. I figured I would just suearch out every MCCleary etc I can > find > from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and I might get lucky and find > something. Right now it is guesswork. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > If I could only find that connection in the McCleary family from > Jefferson > on back. I found a Thomas Jefferson McCleary age 26 on an 1830 > Maryland > census... but my Jefferson was born in 1814, as per the 1860 census that > lists him as age 46. It calls him McClorry on that one, but it's him. > The > batches of first names in the family tie together the various census > misspellings of the last name. I even found people that may have been > his > brothers or cousins, but haven't found them back further either, yet. I > was hoping if I couldn't follow his trail, I could hit on it with > extended > family from the same area and census. The area I found them in was Cool > Springs, Washington County, NorthCarolina, Post office Mackeys Ferry, and > also Harrington County Div.2. dist. 1 N.C., and the northern district > 1850 > Census Rockeartto, County, N.C. or something like that, can't read it very > good. If you have any idea how to look back farther I'm all ears....or > in > this case eyes since we are writing, not talking. LOL. > > There are some colonial ancestors on my husbands side as well, but none > on > mine.. the hardest part of waiting so long to start hunting is I forget > what > I've found and where I found it so quickly... I am trying to document it > all > as I go along... but I have gone so many directions in such a short time > I > have well nigh driven myself crazy!!!! In your business do you only hunt > Scotch Irish, or do you hunt other countries too??? Well thanks > again... > Ellie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ellie, Linda is right in regards to your research needs and area of focus. I wanted to just let you know you that your Scotch-Irish focus may not be too far of the beaten path. There are 4 documented McClary families in early 1700's in New England 1718- Thomas McClary (b.1706) from Londonderry, NIR to Windham, New Hampshire brother of 1718- Daniel McCleary (b. 1708 in Maghera, Londonderry, Ireland) of Methuen, Mass. died same 1788. 1727- Andrew McClary from Londonderry, NIR to Nottingham, NH 1751- David McClary from Ireland, living Boston, Mass. died Bedford, NH A John McCleary and Alexander MaClery are in Boston, Mass 1730 to 1739 There are online Pennsylvania records that may give you access to McClary family info. Google is also a major FREE source. try McClary and Lancaster and you'll find the easy ones quickly. DON'T spend a lot of time reading every hit. Just get enough to find proof the family was in the right place and see if you get lucky and someone mentions a specific family going south to VA and NC. I have the exact same problem in VT in 1804. Bastard or abandoned son living with Mom but who has no father. I did the same surname searching. So... I can state his grandfather with about 95% proof, but can't connect to the five sons. I may never find it but I know it's there :) A miracle DNA match may be my only hope. So you got the right ethnic group on face value. Follow Linda's ideas and some general searching like above and you may hit paydirt. If not you'll be an expert on early McClary's in America :) Colin Brooks The 1718 Project In a message dated 3/30/2010 12:09:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Linda, thanks for taking so much time to answer my, I don't know what to do comment. I should have let you know why I have a snag in the McCleary family search. I have traced them back to North Carolina during the civil war and even one tax list after, and then other census from then till now, but my snag is I can't figure out how to go further back to tie the McCleary family elsewhere to the one in North Carolina. The North Carolina county courthouse where the McCleary family lived was bombed during the civil war and burnt down. all records lost, and then it burnt 3 more times... I can not seem to find who the father of Jefferson McCleary, also spelled McClorry, and MCClary on different census papers. Not doing such a hot job of figuring out who his wife is either. she must have been dead by the time the records that have survived were taken. I did read a bit of a history book online that said a lot of Scotts that came to North Carolina actually came inland through Tennessee, but Jefferson lists he was born in North Carolina. I have found records in other counties of McCleary or some derivative thereof, but no one claims Jefferson on their family . I'm stumped. I figured I would just suearch out every MCCleary etc I can find from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and I might get lucky and find something. Right now it is guesswork. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If I could only find that connection in the McCleary family from Jefferson on back. I found a Thomas Jefferson McCleary age 26 on an 1830 Maryland census... but my Jefferson was born in 1814, as per the 1860 census that lists him as age 46. It calls him McClorry on that one, but it's him. The batches of first names in the family tie together the various census misspellings of the last name. I even found people that may have been his brothers or cousins, but haven't found them back further either, yet. I was hoping if I couldn't follow his trail, I could hit on it with extended family from the same area and census. The area I found them in was Cool Springs, Washington County, NorthCarolina, Post office Mackeys Ferry, and also Harrington County Div.2. dist. 1 N.C., and the northern district 1850 Census Rockeartto, County, N.C. or something like that, can't read it very good. If you have any idea how to look back farther I'm all ears....or in this case eyes since we are writing, not talking. LOL. There are some colonial ancestors on my husbands side as well, but none on mine.. the hardest part of waiting so long to start hunting is I forget what I've found and where I found it so quickly... I am trying to document it all as I go along... but I have gone so many directions in such a short time I have well nigh driven myself crazy!!!! In your business do you only hunt Scotch Irish, or do you hunt other countries too??? Well thanks again... Ellie

Hi Linda, thanks for taking so much time to answer my, I don't know what to do comment. I should have let you know why I have a snag in the McCleary family search. I have traced them back to North Carolina during the civil war and even one tax list after, and then other census from then till now, but my snag is I can't figure out how to go further back to tie the McCleary family elsewhere to the one in North Carolina. The North Carolina county courthouse where the McCleary family lived was bombed during the civil war and burnt down. all records lost, and then it burnt 3 more times... I can not seem to find who the father of Jefferson McCleary, also spelled McClorry, and MCClary on different census papers. Not doing such a hot job of figuring out who his wife is either. she must have been dead by the time the records that have survived were taken. I did read a bit of a history book online that said a lot of Scotts that came to North Carolina actually came inland through Tennessee, but Jefferson lists he was born in North Carolina. I have found records in other counties of McCleary or some derivative thereof, but no one claims Jefferson on their family . I'm stumped. I figured I would just suearch out every MCCleary etc I can find from Pennsylvania to North Carolina and I might get lucky and find something. Right now it is guesswork. The Dowling name means nothing as far as ancestry goes... My husbands father and his twin sister, were adopted by the Dowlings. His dads adoptive mother made him promise to never look for his genetic parents. Thankfully his wife finally talked him into letting her look when he was 70 years old. We have been able to trace his blood family, The Raffields, and the Morris family we are still working on. The Morris side was possibly Irish but I have more work to trace in America before I try that. The Raffields are probably English, but again I haven't tried to do to much hunting that way yet. I use Ancestry.com, but have only been working about 4 months. And that is on lots of different family names. I have used family search on line, and genealogy.net for my side. My tree is looking like a spider web. I have my tree to the point where many ancestors have to be hunted for overseas. But I still have to try to get to one of those ancestry help places that family search has. There is one in our town, but their schedule and mine haven't fit together yet. I have noticed on ancestry.com that the family lists from other peoples trees don't have a lot of facts connected sometimes. Many have names and dates all mixed up. But they have helped give me directional hints though. And most of the names panned out as being family, if not in the exact order I found them in. I am searching family in Lithuania, Germany/ Prussia and Sweden, on my side. Have even tried writing some people living who have my family name and living in the same towns my family hailed from. Hoping they answer me. I have my Swedish side to where they came over to America, but I haven't invested the time or money yet to sign up to SVAR. That whole directions entices but baffles me. I am signed up to a Swedish list, and have Swedish word lists etc. But haven't worked up the courage to dive in. My tree is on Ancestry.com. It is the Auge,Vitz, Plinsky Thomander, Nyberg etc tree. LOL. I have gotten some family to pitch in and share what they know. Sometimes I think I'm nuts to have tried to go so many directions so fast, but , I don't know how long I will have a subscription, so I am hunting everybody for everybody. Tell ya what, the more I learn the more I realize I don't know enough.. I still have 2 McCleary ladies left in their 80's, but they have actually tried to find out things years ago by traveling to the towns where the McCleary's lived in North Carolina. but they ran into the fire in the courthouse problem, and could go no farther. Their father was dead and there was no one to ask. I have been able to find out that their dad Jordan Winfield McCleary was illegitimate . so I have no idea who his dad was. I figure it was somebody in the farming area where his mother lived and worked in other peoples homes. Her name was Amanda McCleary, and through the census records that list her, I was able to find her siblings and her dads name. they lived in a place called MCCleary swamp, but I can't find it on any map, in North Carolina, but I have the counties they lived in. Before the last courthouse fire, when my husbands mother and her sister went hunting, they found a certificate of bastardy for a McCleary boy child, they thought might have been for their father. They have long since lost it. I am enjoying the hunt too, but I can't imagine doing this for a living. the time involved is enormous. Anyway, thanks for writing, sorry I didn't make a clearer comment on what you wrote... I really do appreciate your taking the time to write me that long letter. and you have mentioned paths to take that I have yet to follow but plan to. If I could only find that connection in the McCleary family from Jefferson on back. I found a Thomas Jefferson McCleary age 26 on an 1830 Maryland census... but my Jefferson was born in 1814, as per the 1860 census that lists him as age 46. It calls him McClorry on that one, but it's him. The batches of first names in the family tie together the various census misspellings of the last name. I even found people that may have been his brothers or cousins, but haven't found them back further either, yet. I was hoping if I couldn't follow his trail, I could hit on it with extended family from the same area and census. The area I found them in was Cool Springs, Washington County, NorthCarolina, Post office Mackeys Ferry, and also Harrington County Div.2. dist. 1 N.C., and the northern district 1850 Census Rockeartto, County, N.C. or something like that, can't read it very good. If you have any idea how to look back farther I'm all ears....or in this case eyes since we are writing, not talking. LOL. There are some colonial ancestors on my husbands side as well, but none on mine.. the hardest part of waiting so long to start hunting is I forget what I've found and where I found it so quickly... I am trying to document it all as I go along... but I have gone so many directions in such a short time I have well nigh driven myself crazy!!!! In your business do you only hunt Scotch Irish, or do you hunt other countries too??? Well thanks again... Ellie From: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:00 AM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH toPA in 1719 > Hi Ellen, It's hard to give you specific advice because we don't know what > info you got! > > At this point you want to post : "Okay, I know my great grandpa Scott was > living in Pohokan, Nebraska in 1884 and his daughter said they came from > ....." > > That's important stuff to document. Right now, before anyone else passes > on to the great beyond. My great uncle Ralph is now gone and we don't know > the source of his story that one ancestress of ours had a twin brother who > set off for the gold rush in 1849 and was never hard from. Family believed > he was murdered at a tavern. Digging up the area for a street car line, > the town found skeletons. Good story? BAD story so far. Ie ancestress was > supposedly born in Scotland but there is no baptism for her -- and none > for a twin brother. No twin brother named in any wills or deeds. Could be > another ancester and the story got attached to the wrong person. Or Uncle > Ralph is right. Donno.....we'll have to channel him if we want to know. I > wonder if that works? > > I'm jumping ahead. It's like a murder investigation. You got to collect > all the clues and info, but then you need to realize these are not facts. > These are clues. Some clues are misleading. Some clues, even if > misleading, can lead you to the murderer anyway. Or a different crime > scene altogether. > > So then you ask 'How do I know great grandpa Scott was living in Pohokan? > You check the censuses. > You migh think this is a two minute no-brainer, what with the indexes at > Ancestry.com. No. often you can't find them either due to bad indexing, > bad census taking, inaccurate information, inexperienced searching (on > your part). So when this happens (and it will) don't get depressed and > don't give up. > > As you gather evidence, you must learn all about records: what exists, > where to find them, how to interpret them. Knowing how to find this > information is not genetic. We are not bees who are born, eh, hatched, > knowing what they need to know to accomplish bee-tasks. So if you haven't > received training in this stuff, you don't know how to do it, even if your > Cousin Alma knew and she told you. That's because things are changing > fast. If you try to do genealogy like Cousin Alma, you won't get very far. > That's why she didn't and left you all those dead ends. You live in the > electronic age and you can literally accomplish more in one afternoon than > she could in her whole life of writing letters to courthouses and distant > cousins. > > So you need to get educated. This isn't a grim as it sounds. There is lots > of free information at www.rootsweb.com and www.familysearch.org, > www.ancestry.com, and lots of information you should get, even if you have > to pay for it. You should take some classes, visit your local family > history center, and absorb new information -- every day. You can subscribe > to free enews letters over the INternet and every day get a couple with > short, digestible articles. You can learn to use your local library to > check expensive standard works. On and on! Learnng can be fun. The > genealogy industry also holds conferences -- local ones, regional, > national, > etc, which are great places to learn fast. Get invovled in the local > genealogy societies too. > > There are people who try to do this for a living, though few actually make > a decent living at it. The rest expect these guys to produce results FAST > so they tend to be better educated. The number of people who can afford to > hire someone else to do their family history is quite small. Other than > poverty, the one thing professionals have in common and that separates > them from the 'family historian' is that pros keep learning. On the pros > lists, they are constantly looking for conferences, cheap copies of > lectures, magazines, books, etc, because every day they learn even though > they may be recognized leaders in their field. On the other hand, family > historians often think they already know it all and get quite huffy if you > suggest they don't. NO one knows it all. > > So what's important now for you is to start collecting what info you do > have in the family. Oral history dies with the person unless you collect > it. Collect it and source it (Aunt Mary Hart....) and if you can ask the > person how they know it, it might lead to more discovery. Then you model > it in genealogy software. You can get several free. I like Legacy > (www.legacyfamilytree.com). Then you can print out a zillion updated, > correct family group sheets for the family reunion, send people PDF > reports, gedcom your data to people -- it's easy. A lot easier than in > Cousin Alma's day. I do genealogy professionally...what sucks (among other > things) is to get a pile of papers in the mail (sources! I think). Wrong. > Family group sheets -- and they are all different. What's the most up to > date version? WHo knows! The client doesn't know either. My inherited > family group sheets are a mess too. MINE I print out and they have a date > on them <grin>!!! Voila. I or a grand neice can arrange them > chronologically. Hopefully the later ones are righter than the earlier. > > Every genealogy 'problem' has standard ways to resolve it. These are > taught at conferences, in books, in free webpages and courses, etc. > Usually you have to check standard sources. Most of the time clients who > employ me either haven't checked those sources or if they did, didn't > document that they did. So they basically haven't done the job and, having > done it, failed to document the findings. Even a negative result is > important. It says something. If you try to find an ancestor in the book > that documents British aliens living in the USA in 1812 it means > something: he wasn't here or he wasn't an alien. (The book could be wrong > or he could have been hiding out as well). This is important info to know. > Can you prove he wasn't here? Was he in the army? Can you find him back > home? Was he old enough to be documented or could his father be this man > who lived in your area and who is documented?? So you found him or rather > his father, but didn't realize it? > > You need to understand the standard sources to check for things. The > Family history library's free guides can help or you can pay $$$ to buy > some books to learn these. Legacy (paid verson) also will tell you what to > check and where they are. I cheat a lot and use it<grin>!! > > If you have colonial (or near colonial) ancestors, you will most likely > never find a document that says where precisely they came from ("Ireland" > on an early naturalization don't count: you can get that from the census). > That's because no one ever made those documents. You can search for 100 > years for a document that never existed -- and oddly, never find it. Only > the naive are impressed when you sound off at a family reunion" "I have > searched for immigration information for sixty years now". Smarter to > search for 5 minutes at Ancestry and then moving on to really locating the > family origins in a productive manner. > > The way we locate the place of origin is to use clues. If you don't have > any because you didn't collect any or you don't know which are correct and > which appear fabricated -- you don't get too far. It's episode2 of the > season. The rest of the episodes you spend interviewing and > re-interviewing and staring at charts and driving around following up on > 'aha's. We know that. We watch TV. > > A good book is Rising's "A Family Tree Problem Solver" -- it shows how you > use indirect evidence to figure out where they came from. She uses I think > it is Missouri records to trace people back to Tennessee and Virginia. The > technique is much the same for hopping over the pond. > > You can't explain this all in an email. And you can't learn it all in a > day either! It takes years and years of practice and learning, so the > answers are not here. One good place to start and then revisit often are > the free courses at www.genealogical.com/university.html . I still visit > these...when? When I'm stuck! Being stuck means you need to go learn some > more. Sometimes something you overlooked the first 10 times will be your > savior. So it's circular, like an English mystery where the detective is > always driving past the same fields as he returns to interview the > witnesses, again and again. > > The long version will be put into a book someday. If you don't buy books > you won't know how to do it. I have (meanly) said at times that my plan is > to the part of my family history that I discovered in a journal -- and > thereby hide it from all the family as they don't read genealogy journals > or know about the index to them (PERSI). Hehehe..... And send all my notes > to the Family History Library who will microfilm it and put it in their > catalog but my family never visits the first place you should always go > for family history -- the family history library (largest collection of > genealogy on the planet -- why wouldn't you go, esp. since 'going' means > visiting > www.familysearch.org ?). Hehehehehe....oh, I'm a mean one, I am <grin>! > > Tell me about the Dowlings. There are English Dowlings and there are > Irish. The Irish are in Ulster and I got one. In Ireland the name is > believed to be a variant of "Doran", an Irish name, but without > investigation who knows. All I know is the marriage of my ancestress to > Robert Norris about 1820 in Derry, that produced "Dowling Norris". He was > killed in the American Civil War. Don't know who her people were, yet. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ellie Dowling" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:58:55 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from > NH toPA in 1719 > > Hi, I haven't heard of this, but have just begun to hunt relatives, and > had > no idea where to begin. I had originally thought the family of McCleary > had > come over much later, but now I think they may have come from > Pennsylvania... Thanks for sharing this hint.... Now to try to figure out > how to follow up on it... should be interesting. Ellie > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH > toPA in 1719 > >> Below is an excerpt about the 1718 arrival of "the 5 ships" to give >> the context. The bit of the excerpt that catches my attention is the >> last sentence beginning "The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not >> wait any longer...." Here's the paragraph: >> >> Elmer Roy Collier begins his book, Weir, Wear, and Ware, by saying, >> "The... families petitioned in 1718 to the Governor of New England to >> come to America...they arrived in Boston Harbor in 4 August 1718 but >> were forbidden to land by the intolerant Puritans. ...Sixteen families >> sailed to Casco Bay to claim a tract of land there but were frozen in >> the Bay by early winter weather…When the ice broke in the Spring they >> journeyed to Haverhill, Mass., where they heard of a fine tract of >> land about 15 miles northeast called Nutfield…James Gregg and Robert >> Weir sent a request to the Governor and Court, assembled at >> Portsmouth, New Hampshire, for a township ten miles square. The >> majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer and traveled >> overland to the Scotts-Irish settlement at the Forks of the Delaware >> (Northampton County, Pennsylvania)." >> >> Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New >> Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay, ME? Who were >> they, why there in particular, how did they get there? I am familiar >> with the families who stayed and settled in Nutfield/Londonderry, NH >> and environs. The idea makes sense that others, perhaps within the >> same families, couldn't wait for the decision of Governor and Court, >> not wanting to endure another tough winter as yet unsettled, and moved >> on to PA, thus losing contact with siblings, cousins etc. in NH. But I >> am out of my depth on PA! So any insights or help would be much >> appreciated. >> >> Ruth >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ellen, It's hard to give you specific advice because we don't know what info you got! At this point you want to post : "Okay, I know my great grandpa Scott was living in Pohokan, Nebraska in 1884 and his daughter said they came from ....." That's important stuff to document. Right now, before anyone else passes on to the great beyond. My great uncle Ralph is now gone and we don't know the source of his story that one ancestress of ours had a twin brother who set off for the gold rush in 1849 and was never hard from. Family believed he was murdered at a tavern. Digging up the area for a street car line, the town found skeletons. Good story? BAD story so far. Ie ancestress was supposedly born in Scotland but there is no baptism for her -- and none for a twin brother. No twin brother named in any wills or deeds. Could be another ancester and the story got attached to the wrong person. Or Uncle Ralph is right. Donno.....we'll have to channel him if we want to know. I wonder if that works? I'm jumping ahead. It's like a murder investigation. You got to collect all the clues and info, but then you need to realize these are not facts. These are clues. Some clues are misleading. Some clues, even if misleading, can lead you to the murderer anyway. Or a different crime scene altogether. So then you ask 'How do I know great grandpa Scott was living in Pohokan? You check the censuses. You migh think this is a two minute no-brainer, what with the indexes at Ancestry.com. No. often you can't find them either due to bad indexing, bad census taking, inaccurate information, inexperienced searching (on your part). So when this happens (and it will) don't get depressed and don't give up. As you gather evidence, you must learn all about records: what exists, where to find them, how to interpret them. Knowing how to find this information is not genetic. We are not bees who are born, eh, hatched, knowing what they need to know to accomplish bee-tasks. So if you haven't received training in this stuff, you don't know how to do it, even if your Cousin Alma knew and she told you. That's because things are changing fast. If you try to do genealogy like Cousin Alma, you won't get very far. That's why she didn't and left you all those dead ends. You live in the electronic age and you can literally accomplish more in one afternoon than she could in her whole life of writing letters to courthouses and distant cousins. So you need to get educated. This isn't a grim as it sounds. There is lots of free information at www.rootsweb.com and www.familysearch.org, www.ancestry.com, and lots of information you should get, even if you have to pay for it. You should take some classes, visit your local family history center, and absorb new information -- every day. You can subscribe to free enews letters over the INternet and every day get a couple with short, digestible articles. You can learn to use your local library to check expensive standard works. On and on! Learnng can be fun. The genealogy industry also holds conferences -- local ones, regional, national, etc, which are great places to learn fast. Get invovled in the local genealogy societies too. There are people who try to do this for a living, though few actually make a decent living at it. The rest expect these guys to produce results FAST so they tend to be better educated. The number of people who can afford to hire someone else to do their family history is quite small. Other than poverty, the one thing professionals have in common and that separates them from the 'family historian' is that pros keep learning. On the pros lists, they are constantly looking for conferences, cheap copies of lectures, magazines, books, etc, because every day they learn even though they may be recognized leaders in their field. On the other hand, family historians often think they already know it all and get quite huffy if you suggest they don't. NO one knows it all. So what's important now for you is to start collecting what info you do have in the family. Oral history dies with the person unless you collect it. Collect it and source it (Aunt Mary Hart....) and if you can ask the person how they know it, it might lead to more discovery. Then you model it in genealogy software. You can get several free. I like Legacy (www.legacyfamilytree.com). Then you can print out a zillion updated, correct family group sheets for the family reunion, send people PDF reports, gedcom your data to people -- it's easy. A lot easier than in Cousin Alma's day. I do genealogy professionally...what sucks (among other things) is to get a pile of papers in the mail (sources! I think). Wrong. Family group sheets -- and they are all different. What's the most up to date version? WHo knows! The client doesn't know either. My inherited family group sheets are a mess too. MINE I print out and they have a date on them <grin>!!! Voila. I or a grand neice can arrange them chronologically. Hopefully the later ones are righter than the earlier. Every genealogy 'problem' has standard ways to resolve it. These are taught at conferences, in books, in free webpages and courses, etc. Usually you have to check standard sources. Most of the time clients who employ me either haven't checked those sources or if they did, didn't document that they did. So they basically haven't done the job and, having done it, failed to document the findings. Even a negative result is important. It says something. If you try to find an ancestor in the book that documents British aliens living in the USA in 1812 it means something: he wasn't here or he wasn't an alien. (The book could be wrong or he could have been hiding out as well). This is important info to know. Can you prove he wasn't here? Was he in the army? Can you find him back home? Was he old enough to be documented or could his father be this man who lived in your area and who is documented?? So you found him or rather his father, but didn't realize it? You need to understand the standard sources to check for things. The Family history library's free guides can help or you can pay $$$ to buy some books to learn these. Legacy (paid verson) also will tell you what to check and where they are. I cheat a lot and use it<grin>!! If you have colonial (or near colonial) ancestors, you will most likely never find a document that says where precisely they came from ("Ireland" on an early naturalization don't count: you can get that from the census). That's because no one ever made those documents. You can search for 100 years for a document that never existed -- and oddly, never find it. Only the naive are impressed when you sound off at a family reunion" "I have searched for immigration information for sixty years now". Smarter to search for 5 minutes at Ancestry and then moving on to really locating the family origins in a productive manner. The way we locate the place of origin is to use clues. If you don't have any because you didn't collect any or you don't know which are correct and which appear fabricated -- you don't get too far. It's episode2 of the season. The rest of the episodes you spend interviewing and re-interviewing and staring at charts and driving around following up on 'aha's. We know that. We watch TV. A good book is Rising's "A Family Tree Problem Solver" -- it shows how you use indirect evidence to figure out where they came from. She uses I think it is Missouri records to trace people back to Tennessee and Virginia. The technique is much the same for hopping over the pond. You can't explain this all in an email. And you can't learn it all in a day either! It takes years and years of practice and learning, so the answers are not here. One good place to start and then revisit often are the free courses at www.genealogical.com/university.html . I still visit these...when? When I'm stuck! Being stuck means you need to go learn some more. Sometimes something you overlooked the first 10 times will be your savior. So it's circular, like an English mystery where the detective is always driving past the same fields as he returns to interview the witnesses, again and again. The long version will be put into a book someday. If you don't buy books you won't know how to do it. I have (meanly) said at times that my plan is to the part of my family history that I discovered in a journal -- and thereby hide it from all the family as they don't read genealogy journals or know about the index to them (PERSI). Hehehe..... And send all my notes to the Family History Library who will microfilm it and put it in their catalog but my family never visits the first place you should always go for family history -- the family history library (largest collection of genealogy on the planet -- why wouldn't you go, esp. since 'going' means visiting www.familysearch.org ?). Hehehehehe....oh, I'm a mean one, I am <grin>! Tell me about the Dowlings. There are English Dowlings and there are Irish. The Irish are in Ulster and I got one. In Ireland the name is believed to be a variant of "Doran", an Irish name, but without investigation who knows. All I know is the marriage of my ancestress to Robert Norris about 1820 in Derry, that produced "Dowling Norris". He was killed in the American Civil War. Don't know who her people were, yet. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellie Dowling" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:58:55 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH toPA in 1719 Hi, I haven't heard of this, but have just begun to hunt relatives, and had no idea where to begin. I had originally thought the family of McCleary had come over much later, but now I think they may have come from Pennsylvania... Thanks for sharing this hint.... Now to try to figure out how to follow up on it... should be interesting. Ellie -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH toPA in 1719 > Below is an excerpt about the 1718 arrival of "the 5 ships" to give > the context. The bit of the excerpt that catches my attention is the > last sentence beginning "The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not > wait any longer...." Here's the paragraph: > > Elmer Roy Collier begins his book, Weir, Wear, and Ware, by saying, > "The... families petitioned in 1718 to the Governor of New England to > come to America...they arrived in Boston Harbor in 4 August 1718 but > were forbidden to land by the intolerant Puritans. ...Sixteen families > sailed to Casco Bay to claim a tract of land there but were frozen in > the Bay by early winter weather…When the ice broke in the Spring they > journeyed to Haverhill, Mass., where they heard of a fine tract of > land about 15 miles northeast called Nutfield…James Gregg and Robert > Weir sent a request to the Governor and Court, assembled at > Portsmouth, New Hampshire, for a township ten miles square. The > majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer and traveled > overland to the Scotts-Irish settlement at the Forks of the Delaware > (Northampton County, Pennsylvania)." > > Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New > Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay, ME? Who were > they, why there in particular, how did they get there? I am familiar > with the families who stayed and settled in Nutfield/Londonderry, NH > and environs. The idea makes sense that others, perhaps within the > same families, couldn't wait for the decision of Governor and Court, > not wanting to endure another tough winter as yet unsettled, and moved > on to PA, thus losing contact with siblings, cousins etc. in NH. But I > am out of my depth on PA! So any insights or help would be much > appreciated. > > Ruth > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ruth, there is an entire book written on them. "The Scotch-Irish of Northampton county, Pennsylvania" by Northampton County Historical and Genealogical Society. See here: http://www.pa-genealogy.net/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=900 Also a little information here: http://www.lifestylesover50.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=72 It's fairly well known that many New England Scotch Irish families did migrate down to Pennsylvania. Why wouldn't anyone (I wonder): the climate was much better, the soil better, and they had religious freedom in PA, which they didn't have in New England. It's difficult to establish who they exactly are because in the early 1700s we often do not have much information. We trace them back to Cumberland County (etc) and then we figure we've reached the immigrants and we start to try to find them in Ulster. Not realizing that we're short a generation and another migration. Local histories can give us a clue -- like in this case. I don't know if they came by boat or land. Land in 1718 I think would be very very difficult. I know there was a Scotch irish settlement in Orange Co, NY by that time (an ancestor of mine died on the ship and his widow spend a cold winter on Cape Cod playing Irish harp to feed the children. She then moved to Orange Co -- this was 1729 ish). Ship would have been far easier, I suspect, but someone would have wanted paid and did these people have money? Perhaps the book above has the answer. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:52:41 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [S-I] a question about a possible Scotch-Irish migration from NH to PA in 1719 Below is an excerpt about the 1718 arrival of "the 5 ships" to give the context. The bit of the excerpt that catches my attention is the last sentence beginning "The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer...." Here's the paragraph: Elmer Roy Collier begins his book, Weir, Wear, and Ware, by saying, "The... families petitioned in 1718 to the Governor of New England to come to America...they arrived in Boston Harbor in 4 August 1718 but were forbidden to land by the intolerant Puritans. ...Sixteen families sailed to Casco Bay to claim a tract of land there but were frozen in the Bay by early winter weather…When the ice broke in the Spring they journeyed to Haverhill, Mass., where they heard of a fine tract of land about 15 miles northeast called Nutfield…James Gregg and Robert Weir sent a request to the Governor and Court, assembled at Portsmouth, New Hampshire, for a township ten miles square. The majority of the Scotts-Irish could not wait any longer and traveled overland to the Scotts-Irish settlement at the Forks of the Delaware (Northampton County, Pennsylvania)." Is anyone familiar with this 1719 movement of families from New Hampshire to PA, after the terrible winter in Casco Bay, ME? Who were they, why there in particular, how did they get there? I am familiar with the families who stayed and settled in Nutfield/Londonderry, NH and environs. The idea makes sense that others, perhaps within the same families, couldn't wait for the decision of Governor and Court, not wanting to endure another tough winter as yet unsettled, and moved on to PA, thus losing contact with siblings, cousins etc. in NH. But I am out of my depth on PA! So any insights or help would be much appreciated. Ruth ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message