Hi Ruth, it takes effort, like anything worth doing, but at least you probably won't get Alzheimers due to the mental activity. You can find some friendly people at ISOGG (www.isogg.org I think) as educating people on this is their bailiewick. You should also search for someone, maybe a project admin, who knows some information. Barra McCain at the Ulster Heritage Project is one, but he's very busy and it is hard to attract his attention. Some pay him a retainer -- and he writes a report that explains what he sees. You can hire others at ISOGG. But my experience has been that it is difficult to even find people to write you a report. So you join lists and ask questions. I don't know if your non-matches are due to one of two situations. The first is 'non-paternity event'. The total non-match. The Indian in the woodpile. People frequently adopted children and in days of yore there was no formal adoption process. In fact just a year ago I learned my aunt wasn't my aunt. According to her death certificate she was born 3 months after my other au nt. My grandparents must have adopted her. No one alive knows the story now. Another famly member did adopt a son, that my mother knew about. The further on back you go the less oral history or paperwork you have, but people did often adopt a child if they had none. Maybe the sister of the wife had 3 sons. The son she gave to her childless sister would inherit a farm. That's what my one relative did: gave a sister a son and he did inherit her farm. Otherwise he'd been in the coal mines. Also you have situations where a child is born out of wedlock and the father's surname is not known. So he has the mother's surname. Or the mother fingered the wrong man as the father. The partial matches are caused by mutations. A woman is born with all her eggs formed but a man creates sperm on the fly, all his life. As he ages the likelihood of a mutation goes up. So his sons may not match 100%. Over time these mutations accumulate. Each marker mutates at a certain rate -- some fast, some slow. Some are very unstable (I learned on the list). There are statistical averages, used in creating software like at ftdna to calculate matches, but every family's dna mutates at its own rate. Some have fast mutating DNA and some slow. My one client's mutates fast. He doesn't 'match' according to statistical software at Ftdna, his own known cousins! This is why you need to do both genealogy and DNA -- need both. Need to study the DNA and see how fast or slow it moves, too, which you don't know when yo u can only afford to test one person in the family. For all you know that man may not represent the family DNA due to a NPE (non paternity event). Thanks for the lead on the book, too! Have you tried Newbie DNA? http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/DNA-NEWBIE.html I had one client whose DNA results were very late. Finally FamilyTreeDNA explained that his one marker was so weird that they had rerun the test 3 times. Then they had to have their geneticist look at it. He said it was one really wild marker. This guy is in the large Campbell group that seems to comprise most Campbells in Virginia and PA, at least. But for this one wild marker. Whatever happened to make such a wild mutation? We don't know. Apparently it happened between eastern PA and western though. It was comforting to know that they consulted with the geneticist. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 7:43:11 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Sample posts from the genealogy-dna list It's encouraging, in a backhanded way, to know that someone like you, Linda, with so much more experience than the rest of us even says, "Arrg?" by times. I keep looking for somebody to talk to me and tell me what I am seeing, or not seeing, in language I understand. But we're privileged, I guess, to be able to watch a whole field of genetic science developing and we can't expect to understand it all. Not having even high school or undergrad courses on which to fall back is tough for those of us who finished school "a while ago," when DNA was unknown, doesn't help!! If only there was somebody who 'understands it all' but is, at the same time, a real teacher at heart and would start up a website whose main goal was **communication** to those of us wanting to understand, but we can't quite break into the 'in talk.' Then we could ask questions and get answers we understand, and not have to go three years like Diane without any progress. Your help here on this List, Linda, has been the most useful I've seen anywhere. But you're a born-teacher par excellence—that's why! And... a very generous & gracious one. If only there was a Mailing List with a Geneticist-Linda-Merle as admin, then we'd all have something! Right now, I'm dealing with a certain level of concern among men in one project who can't understand why, when they know they are related with super paper trails, they have mismatches. They expected a full match but don't have it and nobody provided them much help after they paid their money and got their results. It leaves them wondering if this DNA thing all it's cracked up to be. I realize they started off with misconceptions and no understanding of the science, and I'm trying to explain it but what do I know!!! ;-) No answers to be had, methinks. Just need to vent sometimes when the List is quiet! Ruth P.S. I be remiss if I didn't say I've found Colleen Fitzgerald's inexpensive little book DNA & GENEALOGY very helpful and one that attempts to get around the 'in talk.' On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 5:57 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi folks, I just got a digest .....two samples: > >>In that subset of 257 there are 139 SRY2627+ which would be 54%. > > [follows up on a discussion on how much Visogothic DNA there is in Iberia] > > And the next guy says: > >>Now....you're not going to tell me 54% of R1b in Iberia is SRY2627+ are you? > > Arrrg! These guys are working on it right now....I usually just want to know what they decide. > > The way it goes then is they publish and post the URL of the paper on the web. The listers > all read it ten minutes after publication, so within 20 minutes the publisher could be debunked and > the rest of us getting 3 digests per hour or more as he/she is totally shredded. But luckily > only a few people can understand any of it so .... However you have to be careful because > the group could come to a completely different conclusion a week later.... > very dynamic. Today you're Irish; next week German. The week after that who knows? > > I delete a lot of it unread. Many publish here: http://www.jogg.info/ > > Linda Merle ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Marilyn, Hey, same type as my dad -- so how can I view the DNA sample? The central Ulster region there (Omagh) is rather mountainous. As such it didn't attract farmers. Many Irish, forced off of better farming land, moved to the mountainous areas of Tyrone. Some parishes still have the highest number of Irish living in them of any in Northern Ireland. Still, your DNA doesn't seem to be Irish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2 As for how many markers you need tested to get good results, you'll have to find someone who studies this type of DNA. The Irish are very much alike so you need 67 to get any kinds of results. I don't know what you mean by 'unassigned'? Does that mean it is not assigned to a group in the Ulster Heritae project or what? I'm assuming you are a member there and the Armstrong and borders groups???? I know the Border folk are a very mixed bag, DNA wise. See the Border DNA project for information. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/ And here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/border_reiver_deep_ancestry.htm Like I said, my father is in this area and he is predicted R1b1b2, same as YOU. So is it in Ysearch or where can I look at it to see if we match? He has an Armstrong in his family tree, but our surname is Mason. What I can tell you about the DNA is what I already said -- my father is Frisian, probably an ancient settlement. All the R's in the Border project are NOT Celtic, despite their webpages. I can also turn you onto the scientist. You may notice that England and Scotland are not very big and the Irish Sea is not very wide. They have been next to each other for a long time. So people move about. Most likely your Armstrong IS an Armstrong and he moved there after the Plantation. Many border people, esp. Armstrongs, fled since it seemed preferable to being hung from a tree. They tended to settle in Fermanagh where there were already border people, but your ancestors had legs so maybe they used them to move. There is a lot of migration in Ulster. People were rarely nailed into place. Serfdom has been gone for a very long time in the British Isles. I could speculate more if I knew more: ie what was their occupation? What townland did they live on? What estate was this townland part of? I am not so familar with Omagh, more south eastern Tyrone -- ie Dungannon. The Church had huge estates in this area (SE Tyrone). Some townlands it leased out for a hundred years or more, some it did not. In any case, the Irish cluster on these townlands because the Church wasn't forced to not rent to Irish. If your ancestor was poor with a short lease and Catholic, he probably thought he was Irish. He was certainly living the life of an Irishman. Being told his ancestors were border people would not have mattered. Actually many of them were Catholic. The Borders, English and Scots side, were full of recusants -- Catholics. The further you got from London the more 'diversity' people could have in spite of the law. Ditto for Scots in regards to Edinburgh, which 'ruled' the Borders in a very nominal sense only. My ancestors lived near a village called Ereshope way up in the Pennines. No church records. It had no Church of England church. Everyone was Presbyterian. Oh, you think, someone come from Scotland to preach? NO! Serviced out of Lancashire, other side of the mountain. Too high for the king's henchmen....no oxygen up there so people lived however they wanted, apparently. In Durham records you also find land inherited in the Scots fashion via sassines. Anyway that might explain how your ancestor got to Ireland. The DNA in the Borders was very very mixed because all kinds of people went there -- Romans, Angles, Vikings all invaded, remember? It is the origin of Jefferson, whose DNA is K2 or K -- both very old African types. Even before the sea flooded, people were crossing from Europe to this area. Maybe that's the J's. Donno (My mother is a J but her ancestress only made it to Germany). They are not sure about the early migrations -- like I said, appears to be more migrations early on, like Frisian. Pass on your kit number and where it is (or ysearch number) and I'll see if we match or not. Then we''ll only have to decide to go to your house first or mine!! It took me a couple years to just find anyone interested in my DNA. Still no matches....well, unless YOU match. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Otterson" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:20:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Ruth (and Linda), I can understand how you feel. My dad was always told that his Armstrongs were Scottish. I know the Armstrongs were a big Borders clan, many of them very pesty aggravators of the English crown, who raided on both sides of the Borders and in the late 1500s had many of the clan shipped up to Northern Ireland. Since doing my own research I have found that the family came from Termonmaguirk area in Omagh district in Co. Tyrone. Hoping perhaps to meet up with some "cousins" through Y-DNA testing, I got my male cousin on my paternal side, an Armstrong man, that is, to contribute a few cheek cells so I could find out my Armstrong Y-DNA of my particular family. I have my info on the Family Tree DNA on the Armstrong group and a couple of others and have had only a couple of 25-marker matches, both with different surnames, and neither or which wants to play genealogy with me. (I always said if I found a 25 marker match I'd go for a bigger number, but so far I don't have any) LINDA...my haplogroup was first said to be R1b1c but now it's classed as to be R1b1b2..so I am confused, and my ancestor is in the "unassigned" section of the Armstrong DNA group. The closest deep ancestry of mine, the most recent bunch, is said to be England, Germany, Holland,Ireland, New Zealand, Northern Ireland and Scotland. New Zealand???? How does that work in? Now...how do I try to interpret stuff like this and how come I never find a "cousin". Do I have a weird haplogroup, or what? I suppose, since my DNA is "unassigned" that must mean that it can't be put in any specific group of testees who mostly seem to have some group to which they at least somewhat closely match. Like Ruth, I can't see that I can get any real info from the DNA results I have. I've had my info on Family Tree DNA for over 3 years with nary a bite. Thanks for any insight! Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... > Very interesting post, Linda. > > When a family member tests and family turns out to be "Northwest > Irish," does that mean they have to be R1b of one kind of another? Or > are they are a particular R1b category? Or not necessarily either of > the above? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the heads-up to look at isogg.org—will do that. The non-matches those in the group are worrying about aren't really non-matches at all—they are matches but with an appropriate number of mutations. However, lack of pre-knowledge means that these mutations 'throw' some people, thinking that since they share a g5 grandfather there should be no differences. The admins could provide some even 'canned' info to new testers but I guess they are just volunteers who do't do much. Not enough Linda Merles around. If I were an admin of a DNA project, I can think of a whole bunch of useful newbie emails that could go out to new project members—all canned but sounding personal that would leave the testors feeling much less abandoned. I like YOUR explanation of the mutational differences, Linda, "like sperm on the fly" and will share that with the group. I've been working with the concept of a lottery and how when you end up with 63 matches out of 67... you haven't 'lost the lottery' at all... blah blah bah... I am reasonably familiar with Newbie-DNA too. Glad to have mentioned a book you didn't know ie. the Fitzpatrick & Yeiser one called DNA & GENEALOGY. It's 2005 and I figured everyone would know about it. It is really interesting with sidebars and the like and yet forces you to think it through in the more technical parts. It's only $15 at Amazon. Ruth On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 8:19 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Ruth, it takes effort, like anything worth doing, but at least you probably won't get Alzheimers > due to the mental activity. > > You can find some friendly people at ISOGG (www.isogg.org I think) as educating people on > this is their bailiewick. You should also search for someone, maybe a project admin, who > knows some information. Barra McCain at the Ulster Heritage Project is one, but he's very > busy and it is hard to attract his attention. Some pay him a retainer -- and he writes a report > that explains what he sees. You can hire others at ISOGG. But my experience has been that > it is difficult to even find people to write you a report. > > So you join lists and ask questions. > > I don't know if your non-matches are due to one of two situations. The first is 'non-paternity event'. > The total non-match. The Indian in the woodpile. People frequently adopted children and in > days of yore there was no formal adoption process. In fact just a year ago I learned my aunt > wasn't my aunt. According to her death certificate she was born 3 months after my other au nt. > My grandparents must have adopted her. No one alive knows the story now. Another famly > member did adopt a son, that my mother knew about. The further on back you go the less > oral history or paperwork you have, but people did often adopt a child if they had none. Maybe > the sister of the wife had 3 sons. The son she gave to her childless sister would inherit a > farm. That's what my one relative did: gave a sister a son and he did inherit her farm. Otherwise > he'd been in the coal mines. > > Also you have situations where a child is born out of wedlock and the father's surname > is not known. So he has the mother's surname. Or the mother fingered the wrong man as > the father. > > The partial matches are caused by mutations. A woman is born with all her eggs formed but > a man creates sperm on the fly, all his life. As he ages the likelihood of a mutation goes up. > So his sons may not match 100%. Over time these mutations accumulate. Each marker > mutates at a certain rate -- some fast, some slow. Some are very unstable (I learned on the > list). There are statistical averages, used in creating software like at ftdna to calculate matches, > but every family's dna mutates at its own rate. Some have fast mutating DNA and some slow. > My one client's mutates fast. He doesn't 'match' according to statistical software at Ftdna, > his own known cousins! This is why you need to do both genealogy and DNA -- need both. > Need to study the DNA and see how fast or slow it moves, too, which you don't know when yo u > can only afford to test one person in the family. For all you know that man may not represent > the family DNA due to a NPE (non paternity event). > > Thanks for the lead on the book, too! Have you tried Newbie DNA? > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/DNA-NEWBIE.html > > I had one client whose DNA results were very late. Finally FamilyTreeDNA explained that his > one marker was so weird that they had rerun the test 3 times. Then they had to have their > geneticist look at it. He said it was one really wild marker. This guy is in the large Campbell > group that seems to comprise most Campbells in Virginia and PA, at least. But for this one > wild marker. Whatever happened to make such a wild mutation? We don't know. Apparently > it happened between eastern PA and western though. It was comforting to know that they > consulted with the geneticist. > > Linda Merle > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 7:43:11 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] Sample posts from the genealogy-dna list > > It's encouraging, in a backhanded way, to know that someone like you, > Linda, with so much more experience than the rest of us even says, > "Arrg?" by times. > > I keep looking for somebody to talk to me and tell me what I am > seeing, or not seeing, in language I understand. But we're privileged, > I guess, to be able to watch a whole field of genetic science > developing and we can't expect to understand it all. Not having even > high school or undergrad courses on which to fall back is tough for > those of us who finished school "a while ago," when DNA was unknown, > doesn't help!! > > If only there was somebody who 'understands it all' but is, at the > same time, a real teacher at heart and would start up a website whose > main goal was **communication** to those of us wanting to understand, > but we can't quite break into the 'in talk.' Then we could ask > questions and get answers we understand, and not have to go three > years like Diane without any progress. Your help here on this List, > Linda, has been the most useful I've seen anywhere. But you're a > born-teacher par excellence—that's why! And... a very generous & > gracious one. If only there was a Mailing List with a > Geneticist-Linda-Merle as admin, then we'd all have something! > > Right now, I'm dealing with a certain level of concern among men in > one project who can't understand why, when they know they are related > with super paper trails, they have mismatches. They expected a full > match but don't have it and nobody provided them much help after they > paid their money and got their results. It leaves them wondering if > this DNA thing all it's cracked up to be. I realize they started off > with misconceptions and no understanding of the science, and I'm > trying to explain it but what do I know!!! ;-) > > No answers to be had, methinks. Just need to vent sometimes when the > List is quiet! > > Ruth > > P.S. I be remiss if I didn't say I've found Colleen Fitzgerald's > inexpensive little book DNA & GENEALOGY very helpful and one that > attempts to get around the 'in talk.' > > > On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 5:57 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hi folks, I just got a digest .....two samples: >> >>>In that subset of 257 there are 139 SRY2627+ which would be 54%. >> >> [follows up on a discussion on how much Visogothic DNA there is in Iberia] >> >> And the next guy says: >> >>>Now....you're not going to tell me 54% of R1b in Iberia is SRY2627+ are you? >> >> Arrrg! These guys are working on it right now....I usually just want to know what they decide. >> >> The way it goes then is they publish and post the URL of the paper on the web. The listers >> all read it ten minutes after publication, so within 20 minutes the publisher could be debunked and >> the rest of us getting 3 digests per hour or more as he/she is totally shredded. But luckily >> only a few people can understand any of it so .... However you have to be careful because >> the group could come to a completely different conclusion a week later.... >> very dynamic. Today you're Irish; next week German. The week after that who knows? >> >> I delete a lot of it unread. Many publish here: http://www.jogg.info/ >> >> Linda Merle > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Linda, The Y6VDW is on ysearch. It is right next to the 1st one I sent you. I was stupid and didn't look that the 1st one was only 12 markers. The other one is more, but I'm not sure if it is 67 or not. Please take a look. I have been trying for years to figure this one out! Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 7:13:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, no I didn't check a kit. One can't check a kit at Family Tree DNA unless it is your own or it is a match of yours or it is in the same project as you are. Privacy and all that. 12 markers is like 'Crackers". They come in lots of different types. You are saying that some kits that appear (somewhere) to have more than 12 markers tested are whole wheat, and based on that you seem to be asking if that means yours are whole wheat, even though the software at Family Tree DNA apparently won't predict if yours are whole wheat or seseme or lowfat tofu crackers. Ysearch says the haplogroup is unknown. That means it's unknown <grin>!! Seriously, the software is much more sophisticated than we are at this and 12 provides so few data points that in y our case it can't even make a guess. Just because some crackers are whole wheat doesn't mean yours is -- the only way to know is to gather more data. Like I said before, if you asked about this on the genealogy dna list, most people wouldn't pay you the time of day because you have only 12 markers tested. If you are sensing a great silence it's because you don't have enough data to bother with. Seriously. I would expect Coil to turn up north west Irish because it's a north west Irish surname but I wouldn't bet 2 cents on it <grin>! 12 markers probably shouldn't be sold. It's not enough, generally, to tell much. Rather than trying to guess what it is, use the time to find a job, earn money, and upgrade to 67. Seriously, if the DNA is north west Irish you need 67 markers because, like I said, the DNA is very alike. With 37 you can't tell if someone is or is not related. With 67 it's fairly clear. This is what the geneticists told us and they were right. It's less than $300. For $300 you cannot do a lot of genealogy. It's cheap. Best of luck with the upgrading..... and nighty night! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:44:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Did you check kit number 10864? It and several other kits appear to be more than 12 markers. One says R1B1B2. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:38:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, Well you only tested 12 markers which doesn't appear to be enough to even predict the haplogroup. To find out more you have to upgrade and get more testing done. These 12 marker tests -- the 'experts' wonder why the companies even offer them. They're not too useful. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:09:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi folks, I just got a digest .....two samples: >In that subset of 257 there are 139 SRY2627+ which would be 54%. [follows up on a discussion on how much Visogothic DNA there is in Iberia] And the next guy says: >Now....you're not going to tell me 54% of R1b in Iberia is SRY2627+ are you? Arrrg! These guys are working on it right now....I usually just want to know what they decide. The way it goes then is they publish and post the URL of the paper on the web. The listers all read it ten minutes after publication, so within 20 minutes the publisher could be debunked and the rest of us getting 3 digests per hour or more as he/she is totally shredded. But luckily only a few people can understand any of it so .... However you have to be careful because the group could come to a completely different conclusion a week later.... very dynamic. Today you're Irish; next week German. The week after that who knows? I delete a lot of it unread. Many publish here: http://www.jogg.info/ Linda Merle

You can also look at Y6VDW on ysearch. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:38:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, Well you only tested 12 markers which doesn't appear to be enough to even predict the haplogroup. To find out more you have to upgrade and get more testing done. These 12 marker tests -- the 'experts' wonder why the companies even offer them. They're not too useful. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:09:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Did you check kit number 10864? It and several other kits appear to be more than 12 markers. One says R1B1B2. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:38:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, Well you only tested 12 markers which doesn't appear to be enough to even predict the haplogroup. To find out more you have to upgrade and get more testing done. These 12 marker tests -- the 'experts' wonder why the companies even offer them. They're not too useful. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:09:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ruth, yes "northwest Irish" is one of those Rs. See http://www.m222.net/R1b1c7.htm . They have a unique mutation so they are only ONE variety of R -- themselves. www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~colin/DriscollOfCork/DNA/Hap/R1b/R1b1c7.htm If you have McLaughlin from Raphoe most likely it is NW Irish. Otherwise its kind of like believing a cornplant growing in the middle of a field of corn is not a cornplant. It looks like corn and it's growing where corn grows so it's corn. Of course it could be a strange houseplant but not too likely <grin>! (I have one that looks like a small corn plant....). This is a liberal art major's version of 'statistics'.... >Once one DNA tests, how does one get access to the sort of fascinating >information you speak of — the kind being sorted out by the Dublin <geneticists. One of the things I've found difficult in the three DNA >project in which I am involved is how little real help there seems to >be—or I just haven't looked in the right places. It's a bit like the >blind leading the blind, admins who are non-existent.... Yeh, that's the problem. You can't easily even hire someone to check out your DNA because there are very few people who actually can understand this in depth. (some listed at www.isogg.org). Also it is somewhat luck of the draw. If you have 'popular' DNA it is much easier to get attention. We're the lab rats and the scientists need funding. In this case much comes from the lab rats. I have 67 markers tested on my father but to this date I have not even had a 37 marker match. Hmm I thought maybe he was a lost neanderthal or something <grin>. I could find no one interested in helping. I did a little study and decided it was Frisian. Then low and behold I got email from a French scientist who is researching my dad's DNA type (another flavor of R, by the way). It looks like he has a rare mutation that would mean his Frisian ancestors (I was right, astonishing for a liberal arts major) were in England LONG before the Romans. It was usually believed the Germans didn't move over till 500 AD but there is both linguistic (English has no surviving close cousins) and DNA evidence that says otherwise. Apparently there is a mutation associated with this early Frisian migration. However Family Tree DNA didn't test for it so he tried to talk me into paying $700 to repeat the 67 markers and get the mutation tested at some other firm. Sorry, I am broke and cursed with cheap relatives. He then tried to get me to talk my ex (who was born in France) to test, but my ex thinks the CIA is behind these DNA tests..... so the poor man could squeeze no DNA tests out of us. BUT he explained that he would expect to not find many matches for my dad's DNA but didn't explain why. The trouble with these scientists is when they start talking you can't understand them anyway. The way you get your DNA into the clutches of the hungry scientists is upload them to ysearch.org . If you test with FTDNA you click on one button. People testing from other firms also upload there. Your email is provided as a contact. So that's how you bait the trap. They're particularly interested in DNA from the homeland (as opposed to Americans trying to find their homeland using DNA...). So if you can prove a point of origin, make sure to post that info. We know my dad's family's home village in England which intrested the French scientist. The other thing you do is you join free projects at FamilyTreeDNA. You of course would join a surname project. Once the results are back, usually FTDNA can also tell you where you might be 'from'. You look at the info in the varrious fields in your logon which shows where your matches are. However if you think they are from Ulster you also joined the Ulster Heritage DNA project. Or the Irish project. On the McAmis project, we joined the Irish project. The admin's ID'ed the DNA and shuffled us off immediately to the Ulster project. Everyone (who knows this stuff, at least 3 people!) could tell the DNA was from central Ulster. You get matches in y our login and you can also view the DNA in the Ulster Heritage DNA project. The admin groups them as the DNA results 'come in'. You can compare your DNA to all the rest yourself. Download the spreadsheet and sort away. Depending on your background this is easy or hard. The admin talks to the Dublin geneticists (if they haven't seen your DNA already). This database is their research lab. If they find it interesting no doubt you'll get email. We did from the admin. The geneticists work behind the scenes, which is okay, as we can't understand them (we're labrats). At this point the Ulster DNA is probably one of the most studied, right up there with Jewish DNA in popularity. One reason for this is that the Irish have the oldest genealogies in Europe, so you can hope to make a little more sense of it. Some of those genealogies are confirmed and some aren't. And as more data arrives the geneticists shift their positions. The most valuable DNA for them is that of men in Ulster of known family. Of course, given the history, they're even more paranoid than my ex husband <grin>! Luckily the admin of the project, who descends from a New England 1718 family, speaks Ulster Irish so they'll work with him. I glow orange in the dark -- no way I could ever be helpful at talking to these men. I have about 18 left feet when it comes to trying to talk to our Irish cousins. There is another resource -- the genealogy-dna email list. A lot of principals -- people actually doing the research are on the list and conduct most of the conversations. About 60 % or more are incomprehensive to me, which is better than 98%, which is what it was at first. You can ask (humbly, as a lab rat should) after you post results to ysearch for an opinion, adding details as bait and you may either find someone very interested in your DNA (who tries to talk you into spending a few hundred more dollars) or get some help at understanding it, pointed to another list that specializes in your type of DNA, etc. However if you don't have at least 37 markers tested they will ignore you <grin>! I guess they don't like poor labrats. Actually, there isn't enough data to say much. You can also goggle and find out information. Anyway there is very little in south western Scotland that isn't Irish. Alba was an Irish colony, after all. Before about 550 AD the Scotti were a tribe of Irish living in Antrim. They started a colony in Scotland and fought long and hard with the Picts (who also supposedly were Irish once -- probably walked to Scotland across a landbridge at the end of the last Ice Age, after walking up from what is now Spain). Eventually Kenneth McAlpin united them into one kingdom and it was called Scotland. St. Columba (an Irishman) of course christianized the Scots, Picts, and Angles in Northumbria, and there were plenty of Irish in the area. Another group left from Co. Down to go to the Galloway area with lots of Irish. Meanwhile people can build boats and went back and forth through the centuries. Still a lot of Scots families end up like yours -- more recent Irish immigrants. There is a parish in Antrim that documented its Scottish migrations in the Ordnance Survey Memoirs. Ten percent stayed each year. Well...100 years, 10% per year -- 100% stayed over 100 years. Scotland filled up. They assimilated fast. I told the story before -- it's in Black "Surnames of Scotland". Hysterically funny stories of Irish surnames becoming proper Scots ones. You'd never know from the grandchildren that the grandparents came over. However to test and find out you are northwest Irish is to win big because the geneticists will be interested. They also have a southern Irish type and of course the Scots are working on theirs -- playing catchup. What the Scots haplotype is (pict? Scotti? Angle?) I don't know. they were discussing whether it needed a new name or not on the DNA genealogy list. The trouble with these people is they don't know history (took statistics instead!). So they were saying there were a mighty lot of "Scots DNA" in England, not realizing that the current border cuts through Reged (Celtic kingdom to west) and Northumbria (Germanic kingdom to the east) in the Dark Ages and that before the Angles came it was all full of Picts and a few Romans fighting with them at Hadrians Wall. Duh..... So I guess it's Pictish DNA....They do need a new name, poor dears. You should test -- maybe your husband is another lost Irish prince. [Deletes a couple comments that could lead me to insult all the Irish on the list, though to me they would just be smart a** comments <grin>] >Johnston projects. !!! You could be a McShane!!! A small but popular group of O'Neills. One of my clients hit the jackpot on this one. Now they're trying to sort out the lineage in the 16th century ... free! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 4:49:39 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Very interesting post, Linda. When a family member tests and family turns out to be "Northwest Irish," does that mean they have to be R1b of one kind of another? Or are they are a particular R1b category? Or not necessarily either of the above? My McLaughlin side (or should I say my husband's) was for all I, or even he, knew when we married, and for quite a few years afterward, a Scots family from Uddingston in Lanarkshire. Then came our first visit to Scotland to visit an elderly widow, the last remaining close blood relative. From this dear wee Auntie Mary, we heard the story of "her great journey" to Ireland to visit her husband, John Leckie's family; she quickly added "the Leckies and McLaughlins came from the same place, you know." We both sat bolt upright and said, "WHAT?!! ...." We'd been led to believe by Jack's long-widowed grandmother, Auntie Mary's sister, that her McLaughlin husband had been a Scotsman. This led us to finding out about, and travelling several times to, Raphoe in County Donegal. We've been told, there is a good chance that that particular McLaughlin family was Northwest Irish. My husband must DNA test; we both so love Northwest Ireland, it would be cool to test that way! The comical part of it all was when we told Grandma that we'd discovered the McLaughlins had emigrated from Ireland to Scotland in the late 1800s (something it turned out she knew all along), she quickly informed us they *really* were Scots in the first place, had gone to Ireland and were just coming back home! Once one DNA tests, how does one get access to the sort of fascinating information you speak of — the kind being sorted out by the Dublin geneticists. One of the things I've found difficult in the three DNA project in which I am involved is how little real help there seems to be—or I just haven't looked in the right places. It's a bit like the blind leading the blind, admins who are non-existent.... I've hesitated to push Jack to test until there seems to be more online help since I'm already swamped trying to understand Smith, Crozier and Johnston projects. Ruth in Ottawa On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:41 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi folks, of course if you are reading this you are still on the Scotch Irish list. If you feel inclined, let us know about your research interests. > > Here's mine. I continue to be amazed at the assistence DNA can be. I have a couple clients who have tested and turned out to be Northwest Irish -- better yet -- leading O'Neills. I can't say 'royal' because the main line was 'lost' either because the son of the blacksmith ... was the son of the blacksmith (First Earl of Tyrone) or... and, maybe, the geneticists think it was lost by 900 AD (unless they changed their minds and of course didn't tell me <grin>) . What happens in this case is that the geneticists in Dublin, attempting to sort out the early genealogies and DNA lines, pay a lot of attention to your DNA, free. So it is a big win. You sit and read about the O'Neills while they work hard on your DNA at no charge to you <grin>. > > So far, the now no longer lost O'Neills include a Johnston family that settled in western Pennsylvania about 1821, lived in Derrry and Unity Townships. NOT the 'famous Johnstons' who provided a governor or so to the state. These ones were Catholics. They are part of the McShane sept and came from Co Down. Merchants who had probably lived near Belfast before coming to the states, where they first settled in Baltimore. This is the clan webpages: http://www.clanmcshane.org/ > > Then we have the McCamish/McAmis clan of Tyrone. The American branch descends from three brothers who appeared in Virginia about 1770 and after the Revolution moved to eastern Tennessee. We established their place of origin through a DNA match in Australia to a man living in Tyrone. Mixed religions. > > There is another group in the Banbridge area of County Down who often are McComish. They are also north west Irish but not 'royal' eh, sorry, 'leading'. Mixed religions. > > They have a match in the USA with a man surnamed Clark who fathered a son in Illinois in 1902. The mother died and the father's whereabout are unknown. The mother's family raised the son. Oral family history said Mr. Clark was Irish. They are searching for more information, but what is clear is this man was an O'Neill. Any Clarks here have their DNA test results so we see if y ou match??? > > As for my own family, for new people, I have Andersons who settled in Western Pennsylvania in 1785 from what is now Franklin County, PA. They emigrated before the Revolution from County Antrim. Probably related to the Andersons who built Bushmills as they are also red headed, musical Covenantors. Blacks -- I descend from the brother of the Rev. John Black, from Aghohill, County Antrim. My Robert and his wife Sarah Aiken first settled in South Carolina about 1795 but moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania due to the split in the Covenantor church in 1805. Norris -- from Swatragh, County Derry. A huge mess of Norrises came over and not all came to western PA. Wife's surname was Dowling. Also Marshall from Tyrone (though I am beginning to doubt that). Had 7 daughters. No DNA. And Kelly from County Down. Stuck in western PA at about 1820. Probably related to the Kellys of Wilkinsburg though not in any direct way (since the last one died without a legal heir). Mine were north of the Allegheny River in O'Hara/Indiana Township. > > Linda Merle (List Admin) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My ancestor is Valentine Coil, by the way! Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 4/8/2010 7:43:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > > developing and we can't expect to understand it all. Not having even > high school or undergrad courses on which to fall back is tough for > those of us who finished school "a while ago," when DNA was unknown, > doesn't help!! > > If only there was somebody who 'understands it all' but is, at the > same time, a real teacher at heart and would start up a website whose > main goal was **communication** to those of us wanting to understand, > but we can't quite break into the 'in talk.' Then we could ask > questions and get answers we understand, and not have to go three > A suggestion on a beginning. We are very fortunate in the two local clubs I belong to have as members retired college level biology professors. Guess what we got them to talk to us about? Yes--the basics of DNA. Then later on they did a follow on talk showing the basic genealogy use of DNA. Was it all encompassing? Not by any means but it was a basic "DNA for Dummies" if you will. It helped a lot of people to get started. If you don't have anyone in your club that fits this profile I bet you are near a local college or junior college that has someone who would be willing to come and talk to you. Food for thought! Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL

It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org

Linda, How can one tell if their DNA is Irish or something else? My father was from the R group too. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:00:10 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Marilyn, Hey, same type as my dad -- so how can I view the DNA sample? The central Ulster region there (Omagh) is rather mountainous. As such it didn't attract farmers. Many Irish, forced off of better farming land, moved to the mountainous areas of Tyrone. Some parishes still have the highest number of Irish living in them of any in Northern Ireland. Still, your DNA doesn't seem to be Irish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2 As for how many markers you need tested to get good results, you'll have to find someone who studies this type of DNA. The Irish are very much alike so you need 67 to get any kinds of results. I don't know what you mean by 'unassigned'? Does that mean it is not assigned to a group in the Ulster Heritae project or what? I'm assuming you are a member there and the Armstrong and borders groups???? I know the Border folk are a very mixed bag, DNA wise. See the Border DNA project for information. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/ And here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/border_reiver_ deep_ancestry.htm Like I said, my father is in this area and he is predicted R1b1b2, same as YOU. So is it in Ysearch or where can I look at it to see if we match? He has an Armstrong in his family tree, but our surname is Mason. What I can tell you about the DNA is what I already said -- my father is Frisian, probably an ancient settlement. All the R's in the Border project are NOT Celtic, despite their webpages. I can also turn you onto the scientist. You may notice that England and Scotland are not very big and the Irish Sea is not very wide. They have been next to each other for a long time. So people move about. Most likely your Armstrong IS an Armstrong and he moved there after the Plantation. Many border people, esp. Armstrongs, fled since it seemed preferable to being hung from a tree. They tended to settle in Fermanagh where there were already border people, but your ancestors had legs so maybe they used them to move. There is a lot of migration in Ulster. People were rarely nailed into place. Serfdom has been gone for a very long time in the British Isles. I could speculate more if I knew more: ie what was their occupation? What townland did they live on? What estate was this townland part of? I am not so familar with Omagh, more south eastern Tyrone -- ie Dungannon. The Church had huge estates in this area (SE Tyrone). Some townlands it leased out for a hundred years or more, some it did not. In any case, the Irish cluster on these townlands because the Church wasn't forced to not rent to Irish. If your ancestor was poor with a short lease and Catholic, he probably thought he was Irish. He was certainly living the life of an Irishman. Being told his ancestors were border people would not have mattered. Actually many of them were Catholic. The Borders, English and Scots side, were full of recusants -- Catholics. The further you got from London the more 'diversity' people could have in spite of the law. Ditto for Scots in regards to Edinburgh, which 'ruled' the Borders in a very nominal sense only. My ancestors lived near a village called Ereshope way up in the Pennines. No church records. It had no Church of England church. Everyone was Presbyterian. Oh, you think, someone come from Scotland to preach? NO! Serviced out of Lancashire, other side of the mountain. Too high for the king's henchmen....no oxygen up there so people lived however they wanted, apparently. In Durham records you also find land inherited in the Scots fashion via sassines. Anyway that might explain how your ancestor got to Ireland. The DNA in the Borders was very very mixed because all kinds of people went there -- Romans, Angles, Vikings all invaded, remember? It is the origin of Jefferson, whose DNA is K2 or K -- both very old African types. Even before the sea flooded, people were crossing from Europe to this area. Maybe that's the J's. Donno (My mother is a J but her ancestress only made it to Germany). They are not sure about the early migrations -- like I said, appears to be more migrations early on, like Frisian. Pass on your kit number and where it is (or ysearch number) and I'll see if we match or not. Then we''ll only have to decide to go to your house first or mine!! It took me a couple years to just find anyone interested in my DNA. Still no matches....well, unless YOU match. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Otterson" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:20:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Ruth (and Linda), I can understand how you feel. My dad was always told that his Armstrongs were Scottish. I know the Armstrongs were a big Borders clan, many of them very pesty aggravators of the English crown, who raided on both sides of the Borders and in the late 1500s had many of the clan shipped up to Northern Ireland. Since doing my own research I have found that the family came from Termonmaguirk area in Omagh district in Co. Tyrone. Hoping perhaps to meet up with some "cousins" through Y-DNA testing, I got my male cousin on my paternal side, an Armstrong man, that is, to contribute a few cheek cells so I could find out my Armstrong Y-DNA of my particular family. I have my info on the Family Tree DNA on the Armstrong group and a couple of others and have had only a couple of 25-marker matches, both with different surnames, and neither or which wants to play genealogy with me. (I always said if I found a 25 marker match I'd go for a bigger number, but so far I don't have any) LINDA...my haplogroup was first said to be R1b1c but now it's classed as to be R1b1b2..so I am confused, and my ancestor is in the "unassigned" section of the Armstrong DNA group. The closest deep ancestry of mine, the most recent bunch, is said to be England, Germany, Holland,Ireland, New Zealand, Northern Ireland and Scotland. New Zealand???? How does that work in? Now...how do I try to interpret stuff like this and how come I never find a "cousin". Do I have a weird haplogroup, or what? I suppose, since my DNA is "unassigned" that must mean that it can't be put in any specific group of testees who mostly seem to have some group to which they at least somewhat closely match. Like Ruth, I can't see that I can get any real info from the DNA results I have. I've had my info on Family Tree DNA for over 3 years with nary a bite. Thanks for any insight! Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... > Very interesting post, Linda. > > When a family member tests and family turns out to be "Northwest > Irish," does that mean they have to be R1b of one kind of another? Or > are they are a particular R1b category? Or not necessarily either of > the above? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I had to chuckle at the people and all the questions about Y-DNA, because I had (have) the same questions. In general, the more markers you have tested, the more confidence you can have in the results. The 25 marker comparisons are almost useless as they give too many matches to be realistic. FTDNA diplays your matches for 12, 25, 37 and 67 markers, and I see that a number of those who matched exactly with 12 markers, fell of the list when we looked at 37 markers. Ditto for the 67 markers. I have a good paper trail of my Wilsons back to Coleraine, some from Ballywillan parish and some from Dunboe. In fact I even found their names in the records of the First Dunboe Presbyterian church and walked the old streets of Articlave and Ballywildrick - a bit spooky I'll admit, but fun in any case. So, when I had my Y-DNA analyzed by FTDNA, thought for sure it would come back as R1b1b2 as most Cletic Irish do, but I was surprised when my haplogroup turned out to be I1a - Nordic! that means my ancient ancestor probably came from Norway or Denmark and was among the Vikings that eventually stayed in Ireland (or possibly Scotland or England - the Danelaw, etc.) Using Y-SEARCH, and the matches by FTDNA, I was able to find 4 perfect matches at 37 markers and one at 67 markers with a genetic distance of 1 (we matched on 66 of 67 markers). FTDNA has some faculty at the University of Arizona who compute the probabilities of matches, and they claim that the guy I matched on the 67 markers had a common ancestor with me about 300 years ago, with a probability of about .96. That's pretty high if you're not up on probability theory. One of these days I'm going to sit down and figure out how they came up with .96! Dan

It's encouraging, in a backhanded way, to know that someone like you, Linda, with so much more experience than the rest of us even says, "Arrg?" by times. I keep looking for somebody to talk to me and tell me what I am seeing, or not seeing, in language I understand. But we're privileged, I guess, to be able to watch a whole field of genetic science developing and we can't expect to understand it all. Not having even high school or undergrad courses on which to fall back is tough for those of us who finished school "a while ago," when DNA was unknown, doesn't help!! If only there was somebody who 'understands it all' but is, at the same time, a real teacher at heart and would start up a website whose main goal was **communication** to those of us wanting to understand, but we can't quite break into the 'in talk.' Then we could ask questions and get answers we understand, and not have to go three years like Diane without any progress. Your help here on this List, Linda, has been the most useful I've seen anywhere. But you're a born-teacher par excellence—that's why! And... a very generous & gracious one. If only there was a Mailing List with a Geneticist-Linda-Merle as admin, then we'd all have something! Right now, I'm dealing with a certain level of concern among men in one project who can't understand why, when they know they are related with super paper trails, they have mismatches. They expected a full match but don't have it and nobody provided them much help after they paid their money and got their results. It leaves them wondering if this DNA thing all it's cracked up to be. I realize they started off with misconceptions and no understanding of the science, and I'm trying to explain it but what do I know!!! ;-) No answers to be had, methinks. Just need to vent sometimes when the List is quiet! Ruth P.S. I be remiss if I didn't say I've found Colleen Fitzgerald's inexpensive little book DNA & GENEALOGY very helpful and one that attempts to get around the 'in talk.' On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 5:57 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi folks, I just got a digest .....two samples: > >>In that subset of 257 there are 139 SRY2627+ which would be 54%. > > [follows up on a discussion on how much Visogothic DNA there is in Iberia] > > And the next guy says: > >>Now....you're not going to tell me 54% of R1b in Iberia is SRY2627+ are you? > > Arrrg! These guys are working on it right now....I usually just want to know what they decide. > > The way it goes then is they publish and post the URL of the paper on the web. The listers > all read it ten minutes after publication, so within 20 minutes the publisher could be debunked and > the rest of us getting 3 digests per hour or more as he/she is totally shredded. But luckily > only a few people can understand any of it so .... However you have to be careful because > the group could come to a completely different conclusion a week later.... > very dynamic. Today you're Irish; next week German. The week after that who knows? > > I delete a lot of it unread. Many publish here: http://www.jogg.info/ > > Linda Merle

Ruth (and Linda), I can understand how you feel. My dad was always told that his Armstrongs were Scottish. I know the Armstrongs were a big Borders clan, many of them very pesty aggravators of the English crown, who raided on both sides of the Borders and in the late 1500s had many of the clan shipped up to Northern Ireland. Since doing my own research I have found that the family came from Termonmaguirk area in Omagh district in Co. Tyrone. Hoping perhaps to meet up with some "cousins" through Y-DNA testing, I got my male cousin on my paternal side, an Armstrong man, that is, to contribute a few cheek cells so I could find out my Armstrong Y-DNA of my particular family. I have my info on the Family Tree DNA on the Armstrong group and a couple of others and have had only a couple of 25-marker matches, both with different surnames, and neither or which wants to play genealogy with me. (I always said if I found a 25 marker match I'd go for a bigger number, but so far I don't have any) LINDA...my haplogroup was first said to be R1b1c but now it's classed as to be R1b1b2..so I am confused, and my ancestor is in the "unassigned" section of the Armstrong DNA group. The closest deep ancestry of mine, the most recent bunch, is said to be England, Germany, Holland,Ireland, New Zealand, Northern Ireland and Scotland. New Zealand???? How does that work in? Now...how do I try to interpret stuff like this and how come I never find a "cousin". Do I have a weird haplogroup, or what? I suppose, since my DNA is "unassigned" that must mean that it can't be put in any specific group of testees who mostly seem to have some group to which they at least somewhat closely match. Like Ruth, I can't see that I can get any real info from the DNA results I have. I've had my info on Family Tree DNA for over 3 years with nary a bite. Thanks for any insight! Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... > Very interesting post, Linda. > > When a family member tests and family turns out to be "Northwest > Irish," does that mean they have to be R1b of one kind of another? Or > are they are a particular R1b category? Or not necessarily either of > the above?

Very interesting post, Linda. When a family member tests and family turns out to be "Northwest Irish," does that mean they have to be R1b of one kind of another? Or are they are a particular R1b category? Or not necessarily either of the above? My McLaughlin side (or should I say my husband's) was for all I, or even he, knew when we married, and for quite a few years afterward, a Scots family from Uddingston in Lanarkshire. Then came our first visit to Scotland to visit an elderly widow, the last remaining close blood relative. From this dear wee Auntie Mary, we heard the story of "her great journey" to Ireland to visit her husband, John Leckie's family; she quickly added "the Leckies and McLaughlins came from the same place, you know." We both sat bolt upright and said, "WHAT?!! ...." We'd been led to believe by Jack's long-widowed grandmother, Auntie Mary's sister, that her McLaughlin husband had been a Scotsman. This led us to finding out about, and travelling several times to, Raphoe in County Donegal. We've been told, there is a good chance that that particular McLaughlin family was Northwest Irish. My husband must DNA test; we both so love Northwest Ireland, it would be cool to test that way! The comical part of it all was when we told Grandma that we'd discovered the McLaughlins had emigrated from Ireland to Scotland in the late 1800s (something it turned out she knew all along), she quickly informed us they *really* were Scots in the first place, had gone to Ireland and were just coming back home! Once one DNA tests, how does one get access to the sort of fascinating information you speak of — the kind being sorted out by the Dublin geneticists. One of the things I've found difficult in the three DNA project in which I am involved is how little real help there seems to be—or I just haven't looked in the right places. It's a bit like the blind leading the blind, admins who are non-existent.... I've hesitated to push Jack to test until there seems to be more online help since I'm already swamped trying to understand Smith, Crozier and Johnston projects. Ruth in Ottawa On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:41 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi folks, of course if you are reading this you are still on the Scotch Irish list. If you feel inclined, let us know about your research interests. > > Here's mine. I continue to be amazed at the assistence DNA can be. I have a couple clients who have tested and turned out to be Northwest Irish -- better yet -- leading O'Neills. I can't say 'royal' because the main line was 'lost' either because the son of the blacksmith ... was the son of the blacksmith (First Earl of Tyrone) or... and, maybe, the geneticists think it was lost by 900 AD (unless they changed their minds and of course didn't tell me <grin>) . What happens in this case is that the geneticists in Dublin, attempting to sort out the early genealogies and DNA lines, pay a lot of attention to your DNA, free. So it is a big win. You sit and read about the O'Neills while they work hard on your DNA at no charge to you <grin>. > > So far, the now no longer lost O'Neills include a Johnston family that settled in western Pennsylvania about 1821, lived in Derrry and Unity Townships. NOT the 'famous Johnstons' who provided a governor or so to the state. These ones were Catholics. They are part of the McShane sept and came from Co Down. Merchants who had probably lived near Belfast before coming to the states, where they first settled in Baltimore. This is the clan webpages: http://www.clanmcshane.org/ > > Then we have the McCamish/McAmis clan of Tyrone. The American branch descends from three brothers who appeared in Virginia about 1770 and after the Revolution moved to eastern Tennessee. We established their place of origin through a DNA match in Australia to a man living in Tyrone. Mixed religions. > > There is another group in the Banbridge area of County Down who often are McComish. They are also north west Irish but not 'royal' eh, sorry, 'leading'. Mixed religions. > > They have a match in the USA with a man surnamed Clark who fathered a son in Illinois in 1902. The mother died and the father's whereabout are unknown. The mother's family raised the son. Oral family history said Mr. Clark was Irish. They are searching for more information, but what is clear is this man was an O'Neill. Any Clarks here have their DNA test results so we see if y ou match??? > > As for my own family, for new people, I have Andersons who settled in Western Pennsylvania in 1785 from what is now Franklin County, PA. They emigrated before the Revolution from County Antrim. Probably related to the Andersons who built Bushmills as they are also red headed, musical Covenantors. Blacks -- I descend from the brother of the Rev. John Black, from Aghohill, County Antrim. My Robert and his wife Sarah Aiken first settled in South Carolina about 1795 but moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania due to the split in the Covenantor church in 1805. Norris -- from Swatragh, County Derry. A huge mess of Norrises came over and not all came to western PA. Wife's surname was Dowling. Also Marshall from Tyrone (though I am beginning to doubt that). Had 7 daughters. No DNA. And Kelly from County Down. Stuck in western PA at about 1820. Probably related to the Kellys of Wilkinsburg though not in any direct way (since the last one died without a legal heir). Mine were north of the! Allegheny River in O'Hara/Indiana Township. > > Linda Merle (List Admin)

Ruth, Lovely story. I love to hear the stories about these people. My husband ..Graham.....(matches 67/67 with a Grimes family) The GRAHAM and GRIMES names were used interchangeably even in the same family some times. The Grimes family I find in Armagh in Ulster in mid 1700's. Our Graham's were in Cork by that time, so they evidently migrated south, but I believe that the larger family came out of Scotland. I am told that my husband has markers very commonly found in Scotland. There are a couple of other families that match us at 67 markers, but we are still working on trying to find the common ancestor. I "think" he may be considered Northwest Irish. R1b1b2e is what I know so far. I am waiting on further testing. There is All Kinds of help on the internet. Most of the testing companies have tons and tons of information for us. Also, there are mail lists specifically designed for conversation about DNA testing. Don't hesitate. It is a fascinating next step to what we all have been doing for years. And, you can learn as you go. Lots of willing help. Diane

Hi folks, of course if you are reading this you are still on the Scotch Irish list. If you feel inclined, let us know about your research interests. Here's mine. I continue to be amazed at the assistence DNA can be. I have a couple clients who have tested and turned out to be Northwest Irish -- better yet -- leading O'Neills. I can't say 'royal' because the main line was 'lost' either because the son of the blacksmith ... was the son of the blacksmith (First Earl of Tyrone) or... and, maybe, the geneticists think it was lost by 900 AD (unless they changed their minds and of course didn't tell me <grin>) . What happens in this case is that the geneticists in Dublin, attempting to sort out the early genealogies and DNA lines, pay a lot of attention to your DNA, free. So it is a big win. You sit and read about the O'Neills while they work hard on your DNA at no charge to you <grin>. So far, the now no longer lost O'Neills include a Johnston family that settled in western Pennsylvania about 1821, lived in Derrry and Unity Townships. NOT the 'famous Johnstons' who provided a governor or so to the state. These ones were Catholics. They are part of the McShane sept and came from Co Down. Merchants who had probably lived near Belfast before coming to the states, where they first settled in Baltimore. This is the clan webpages: http://www.clanmcshane.org/ Then we have the McCamish/McAmis clan of Tyrone. The American branch descends from three brothers who appeared in Virginia about 1770 and after the Revolution moved to eastern Tennessee. We established their place of origin through a DNA match in Australia to a man living in Tyrone. Mixed religions. There is another group in the Banbridge area of County Down who often are McComish. They are also north west Irish but not 'royal' eh, sorry, 'leading'. Mixed religions. They have a match in the USA with a man surnamed Clark who fathered a son in Illinois in 1902. The mother died and the father's whereabout are unknown. The mother's family raised the son. Oral family history said Mr. Clark was Irish. They are searching for more information, but what is clear is this man was an O'Neill. Any Clarks here have their DNA test results so we see if y ou match??? As for my own family, for new people, I have Andersons who settled in Western Pennsylvania in 1785 from what is now Franklin County, PA. They emigrated before the Revolution from County Antrim. Probably related to the Andersons who built Bushmills as they are also red headed, musical Covenantors. Blacks -- I descend from the brother of the Rev. John Black, from Aghohill, County Antrim. My Robert and his wife Sarah Aiken first settled in South Carolina about 1795 but moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania due to the split in the Covenantor church in 1805. Norris -- from Swatragh, County Derry. A huge mess of Norrises came over and not all came to western PA. Wife's surname was Dowling. Also Marshall from Tyrone (though I am beginning to doubt that). Had 7 daughters. No DNA. And Kelly from County Down. Stuck in western PA at about 1820. Probably related to the Kellys of Wilkinsburg though not in any direct way (since the last one died without a legal heir). Mine were north of the Allegheny River in O'Hara/Indiana Township. Linda Merle (List Admin)

I am still here...I haven't been on except to check out messages. I am trying to find words to ask intelligent questions.....that is tricky. :0 Marlene PS Jill and Jeanne, glad you are still here. On Apr 5, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Jill wrote: > Apparently so. You're right, though. There hasn't been much activity > lately. > > Jill > > Jeanne Swick wrote: >> Uncharacteristically, I have not seen any S-I List email for some >> time. Am I still in your world? >> >> >> >> :) >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your >> inbox. >> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T: >> WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.800 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2792 - Release Date: >> 04/05/10 02:32:00 >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >