What else can I say but THANK YOU! What a terrific response. I've read it twice and already learned much — it's so very interesting, as well as useful, because of your gift of writing so conversationally. I want to throughly 'digest' that Wikipedia quotation about I1 that you give and also I'll go looking for Ken Nordvedt. Will re-read what you've written tomorrow when I'm brighter than at this late hour! This is yet another post of yours that will join my file called "Great Linda Merle Posts." Thanks. Ruth in Ottawa On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:07 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Ruth, > > There's some information here about I1: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29 > > Most importantly it says: > "When SNPs are unknown or untested and when short tandem repeat (STR) results show eight allele repeats at DNA Y chromosome Segment (DYS) 455, haplogroup I1 can be predicted correctly with a very high rate of accuracy, 99.3 to 99.8 percent, according to Whit Athey and Vince Vizachero. [ 11 ] [ 12 ] This is almost exclusive to and ubiquitous in the I1 haplogroup, with very few having seven, nine, or another number. Furthermore, DYS 462 divides I1 geographically. Nordtvedt considers 12 allele repeats to be more likely Anglo-Saxon and on the southern fringes of the I1 map, while 13 signifies more northerly, Nordic origins. Nordtvedt has repeatedly argued that, at least for I1, [ 13 ] SNP testing is generally not as beneficial as expanded STR results." > > Ken Nordtvedt is very active on the genealogy-DNA list and he is the specialist in this haplo group. As you can see above you should be able to distinguish between two types -- Anglo Saxon and Nordic. Probably there is more information in the archives of the genealogy DNA list including the logic of those who may dispute his analysis. > >Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be > hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that > those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? > > What is "most Celtic Irish"??? WIthin Ireland there is, to a geneticist, a wide variation of percentages of different types of DNA regionally. So where are you talking about precisely? in the true north west most men are northwest Irish, a specific type of R1 but as you shift locations you get different percentages. And then of course what are the others? Various things including other types of R1. > > Second problem is 'what is Celtic'? Celtic is a CULTURE. It has nothing to do with DNA. The scientists still debate over whether it was brought to Ireland by actual migrations of people bearing it or taught. If you go now to almost anywhere on the planet you will find evidence of Euro-American culture (blue jeans, for example), > but is that the result of a massive invasion of EuroAmericans or cultural transference. We know usually its > cultural transference. But we don't know (or rather I don't know and my eyes glaze over listening to the > arguments) how it came to Ireland. > > What seems true from what I have read, though perhaps I am out of date, is that most of the IRish population > was in place a very long time ago, migrating up the coast of Europe over land bridges. At the Seine, which > then emptied south into the Atlantic (flowing through what is now the English Channel), some went west > to Scotland and some took the valley of the SEine and went up it and into what is now France. The interior > of Wales was mountainous. These people eventually crossed over into Scotland, probably over a land > bridge. > > However since God never towed either away from one another, they were always close, even after the > ice age ended and the land bridges inundated, clever humans built boats and traveled freely among > Ireland, Scotland, and the Nordic lands. > > The Nordic lands were settled in a different fashion. You can view these..... But some of these Nordic > types of DNA were in Ireland for thousands of years. Does that mean they aren't "Celtic"? This is hogwash. > Of course they were as Celtic as the next guy. We don't want to end up becoming some > kind of 21st century 'bigot' who claims some poor smuck with an I1 chromo > isn't really Irish when in fact he is. And for all we know, some came up from the Iberian area. They were > not 'pure' haplotypes, even then. > > On the other hand too the eastern coast of England/Scotland was settled from the east, not the south, > and it has seen waves of migrations, even in prehistoric times. There is much greater diversity there. > > People don't realize that our ancestors were very mobile. I was just reading about the world of Bede, > an 8th century English historian who sheds much light on the Dark Ages at a time when the Anglo > Saxons were still not very Christian and Christianity was still grappling with the neoclassic pagan > heritage (ie re-writing Latin texbooks using Christian stories and not pagan). In the 700s people liked > to go on pilgrimates to Rome. They'd cross to France and travel south, departing by boat from Marseilles. > Took six months or more to get there. Many died on the way, but it was good to die on a pilgrimage. > One person went on six such trips in his life. Later on, before the Vikings destroyed things, the > Anglo Saxon/Irish Christians had great impact on Continental Europe -- many traveled there and > even settled. We find many English manuscripts in Continental libraries from these dark age > centuries. The DNA mixed a lot. The Irish came to England, the English to Ireland, etc, etc,e tc. > > The scientists always deal with statistics, so they can tell you 60 percent of your type of DNA is > found here, etc...but you are not interested in the big picture. You want to know about one particular > instance. Maybe you can never know when precisely your ancestor arrived in Ireland because his > DNA will not tell you. Only that it was in Ireland because your ancestor was. You have to seek other > information to even devise theories. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29 - the migration of R1 is complicated > and some do not believe in the Ibernian origin any more. > > How can you really separate planters from Irish? Scientists iare of the opinion that it is not > possible. After all, God towed Ireland next to Scotland a very long time ago and since then people with > legs and boats could travel back and forth. If you actually think the DNA is different in Scotland from the > DNA in Ireland, see me about a bridge i'm selling. It is not. It dffers in percentages. Many Scots clans, > we know, are founded by Irishmen. Their DNA doesn't 'change' just because they moved to Scotland. > The scientists see different types of mutations coming from a common 'root', ie different branches, > but also there is the constant patter of new people in both places. > > A person's chromosomes do not determine their ethnicity. An Irish ancestor living in Ireland could have > strange DNA -- maybe he comes from Wales, where there were Irish colonies and where the Irish raided > and took slaves. THe Romans imported slaves to work in Welsh copper mines -- you find all kinds of > eastern Mediteranian DNA there. These people are called "Welsh coalminers". Their Y chromo is > irrelevant. When ancestors were captured and lugged to Ireland, their descendents were "Irishmen". > > So if you want to know about your ancestor, you should study the records to see where he lived, > how he lived, and what his religion and social class was. That will tell you who he was -- not his > Y chromosome. > > A Johnston with a I2 Y chromo could culturally have been "Celtic' (whatever that means). he isn't > related to the McShane clan that gave Queen Lizzie and some other O'Neills heart burn in the > 1500s. That's all it says. A more detailed inspection by Ken Nordtvedt (or yourself) might suggest > something about where he was before if you have matches. Or you can understand the mutation rates > so you can tell who matches when the FTDNA software doesn't indicate they are matches. Or you > understand the genomap well enough to ID the significance of 'upstream' mutations. I can't do this > and must rely on others. > > What we see in projects like the Cumberland Gap project (descendents of people, often 'scotch irish', > migrating west through the Gap into Kentucky) is a lot of north west Irish. What it shows is a lot of > indiginous Irish assimilating into .... what? "Planter"? Meaning they were Protestant in Ireland? "Scotch Irish" > meaning they assimilated in America? I donno <grin>. > > Linda Merle

Interesting! We couldn't remove him because he was emailing us from another email addy than the one he was claiming he had subbed from. Today we emailed him asking if this email addy was himself. But he's decloaked! It is himself, so now he's unsubbed and not getting back on either without lots of apologies. He probably got in this state (stuck on the list, couldn't unsub) because his ISP reconfigured, maybe without telling him. When this happens the Fword doesn't help. Cooperation does. But few of us are getting less grouchy in our old ages. I suppose learning his nick name is 'Fword user' didn't help his mood <grin>.... I'd say "anyone want to be list admin", but someone did offer to help out, after all these years. Thanks to Fword we're getting some practice dealing with difficult individuals. Linda Merle (a List Admin) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter McCoy" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 6:39:06 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] The F-word user I have tried by the rules, many times. I thought that using the F word as you put it often enough I would be kicked off, that not working either. ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, 10 April, 2010 1:15:47 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] The F-word user In a message dated 4/9/2010 8:11:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > I told > her she wasn't on the membership list anymore (I checked) and I didn't > know why she was still getting messages Unless you are the list administrator not sure how you checked but...unless she unsubs using the rules of the list then the only way off is for the list administrator to remove her. Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jim, It's hard to say, not knowing what you have or have not read already. FamilytreeDNA and the other firms all have information on their websites. So does www.isogg.org . Trace Your Roots with DNA: Use Your DNA to Complete Your Family Tree by Megan Smolenyak and Ann Turner (See amazon) is good. Both are on the genealogy-dna list. There may be lists of reading posted at the DNA Newbie list too. To learn more about your haplogroup, you would of course google. Due to the association with Nial of the Nine Hostages, you would google for him. There is a LOT of the old Irish lineages on line. However not all of these are correct -- apparently there are errors. I know the fellow I work with a lot refuses to speculate on anything before the 12th century. This seems very humorous to me but before that he says there are issues, but of course these are published yet so no one's spilling the beans prematurely. That's all I know. Of course the Irish raided the coast of England in the Dark Ages and before and even established colonies, but those were absorbed. Usually they talk of Wales since it's closest to Ireland. In the early 1600s, as the English destroyed the O'Neill kingdom, it was reported that there were many Irish 'vagrants' in England, wandering about. No one of course wanted them to 'settle' in their parish as then the parish would be responsible for their upkeep, so they were probably forced to wander. The point being that plenty of Irish had migrated over early in modern times. Sometimes you can find complaints about them in parish chests and vestry minutes or even civil courts. One thing to look for is a landlord that has an Irish estate. He may have brought people over from his Irish estate -- or vise versa. Possibly generation 1 went to England as a servant. The servant's son was trained as a florist or gatekeeper, etc, etc, etc. Eventually someone returns to perform skilled labor on the Irish estate. You can spend lots of time reading the bios of the local lords in Devon. That's just a scenario -- to figure it out means hours and hours of examining your evidence and getting more. Then creating a hypothesis and testing it by seeking out info to support it. The Statues of Kilkenny in the 14th century required that Irish living in the Pale take English style names, among other things. One of their choices was color. So maybe that's how you got White. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Kilkenny Best of luck! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim White" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 5:27:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA Hi Linda: I found your article fantastically interesting and informative. Can you advise further reading, to a DNA novice, for a person with NW Irish Heritage. My Haplogroup is "R1b12a1b". My earliest known ancestor was born in Sligo, Ireland, ca 1765. It is my speculation his g grandfather came from Devon, England, ca 1695-1725. Kindest Regards Jim White Naples, Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > Hi Ruth, > > There's some information here about I1: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29 > > Most importantly it says: > "When SNPs are unknown or untested and when short tandem repeat (STR) > results show eight allele repeats at DNA Y chromosome Segment (DYS) 455, > haplogroup I1 can be predicted correctly with a very high rate of > accuracy, 99.3 to 99.8 percent, according to Whit Athey and Vince > Vizachero. [ 11 ] [ 12 ] This is almost exclusive to and ubiquitous in the > I1 haplogroup, with very few having seven, nine, or another number. > Furthermore, DYS 462 divides I1 geographically. Nordtvedt considers 12 > allele repeats to be more likely Anglo-Saxon and on the southern fringes > of the I1 map, while 13 signifies more northerly, Nordic origins. > Nordtvedt has repeatedly argued that, at least for I1, [ 13 ] SNP testing > is generally not as beneficial as expanded STR results." > > Ken Nordtvedt is very active on the genealogy-DNA list and he is the > specialist in this haplo group. As you can see above you should be able to > distinguish between two types -- Anglo Saxon and Nordic. Probably there is > more information in the archives of the genealogy DNA list including the > logic of those who may dispute his analysis. >>Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be > hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that > those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? > > What is "most Celtic Irish"??? WIthin Ireland there is, to a geneticist, a > wide variation of percentages of different types of DNA regionally. So > where are you talking about precisely? in the true north west most men are > northwest Irish, a specific type of R1 but as you shift locations you get > different percentages. And then of course what are the others? Various > things including other types of R1. > > Second problem is 'what is Celtic'? Celtic is a CULTURE. It has nothing to > do with DNA. The scientists still debate over whether it was brought to > Ireland by actual migrations of people bearing it or taught. If you go now > to almost anywhere on the planet you will find evidence of Euro-American > culture (blue jeans, for example), > but is that the result of a massive invasion of EuroAmericans or cultural > transference. We know usually its > cultural transference. But we don't know (or rather I don't know and my > eyes glaze over listening to the > arguments) how it came to Ireland. > > What seems true from what I have read, though perhaps I am out of date, is > that most of the IRish population > was in place a very long time ago, migrating up the coast of Europe over > land bridges. At the Seine, which > then emptied south into the Atlantic (flowing through what is now the > English Channel), some went west > to Scotland and some took the valley of the SEine and went up it and into > what is now France. The interior > of Wales was mountainous. These people eventually crossed over into > Scotland, probably over a land > bridge. > > However since God never towed either away from one another, they were > always close, even after the > ice age ended and the land bridges inundated, clever humans built boats > and traveled freely among > Ireland, Scotland, and the Nordic lands. > > The Nordic lands were settled in a different fashion. You can view > these..... But some of these Nordic > types of DNA were in Ireland for thousands of years. Does that mean they > aren't "Celtic"? This is hogwash. > Of course they were as Celtic as the next guy. We don't want to end up > becoming some > kind of 21st century 'bigot' who claims some poor smuck with an I1 chromo > isn't really Irish when in fact he is. And for all we know, some came up > from the Iberian area. They were > not 'pure' haplotypes, even then. > > On the other hand too the eastern coast of England/Scotland was settled > from the east, not the south, > and it has seen waves of migrations, even in prehistoric times. There is > much greater diversity there. > > People don't realize that our ancestors were very mobile. I was just > reading about the world of Bede, > an 8th century English historian who sheds much light on the Dark Ages at > a time when the Anglo > Saxons were still not very Christian and Christianity was still grappling > with the neoclassic pagan > heritage (ie re-writing Latin texbooks using Christian stories and not > pagan). In the 700s people liked > to go on pilgrimates to Rome. They'd cross to France and travel south, > departing by boat from Marseilles. > Took six months or more to get there. Many died on the way, but it was > good to die on a pilgrimage. > One person went on six such trips in his life. Later on, before the > Vikings destroyed things, the > Anglo Saxon/Irish Christians had great impact on Continental Europe -- > many traveled there and > even settled. We find many English manuscripts in Continental libraries > from these dark age > centuries. The DNA mixed a lot. The Irish came to England, the English to > Ireland, etc, etc,e tc. > > The scientists always deal with statistics, so they can tell you 60 > percent of your type of DNA is > found here, etc...but you are not interested in the big picture. You want > to know about one particular > instance. Maybe you can never know when precisely your ancestor arrived in > Ireland because his > DNA will not tell you. Only that it was in Ireland because your ancestor > was. You have to seek other > information to even devise theories. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29 - the migration of > R1 is complicated > and some do not believe in the Ibernian origin any more. > > How can you really separate planters from Irish? Scientists iare of the > opinion that it is not > possible. After all, God towed Ireland next to Scotland a very long time > ago and since then people with > legs and boats could travel back and forth. If you actually think the DNA > is different in Scotland from the > DNA in Ireland, see me about a bridge i'm selling. It is not. It dffers in > percentages. Many Scots clans, > we know, are founded by Irishmen. Their DNA doesn't 'change' just because > they moved to Scotland. > The scientists see different types of mutations coming from a common > 'root', ie different branches, > but also there is the constant patter of new people in both places. > > A person's chromosomes do not determine their ethnicity. An Irish ancestor > living in Ireland could have > strange DNA -- maybe he comes from Wales, where there were Irish colonies > and where the Irish raided > and took slaves. THe Romans imported slaves to work in Welsh copper > mines -- you find all kinds of > eastern Mediteranian DNA there. These people are called "Welsh > coalminers". Their Y chromo is > irrelevant. When ancestors were captured and lugged to Ireland, their > descendents were "Irishmen". > > So if you want to know about your ancestor, you should study the records > to see where he lived, > how he lived, and what his religion and social class was. That will tell > you who he was -- not his > Y chromosome. > > A Johnston with a I2 Y chromo could culturally have been "Celtic' > (whatever that means). he isn't > related to the McShane clan that gave Queen Lizzie and some other O'Neills > heart burn in the > 1500s. That's all it says. A more detailed inspection by Ken Nordtvedt (or > yourself) might suggest > something about where he was before if you have matches. Or you can > understand the mutation rates > so you can tell who matches when the FTDNA software doesn't indicate they > are matches. Or you > understand the genomap well enough to ID the significance of 'upstream' > mutations. I can't do this > and must rely on others. > > What we see in projects like the Cumberland Gap project (descendents of > people, often 'scotch irish', > migrating west through the Gap into Kentucky) is a lot of north west > Irish. What it shows is a lot of > indiginous Irish assimilating into .... what? "Planter"? Meaning they were > Protestant in Ireland? "Scotch Irish" > meaning they assimilated in America? I donno <grin>. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 2:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > > It's interesting, Dan, that the 1718 Smith family I am tracing and > which we've talked about specifically, is also I1. This family is a > Plantation family, arriving in Ulster from Argyllshire in the first > half of the 17th c — the earliest family member, known about in some > detail, was on one of the "first 5 ships' of 1718, and is always said > in oral tradition to have, in infancy, survived the Siege of Derry. > > So, in some sense, I didn't necessarily expect an R1b haplogroup > placement. I wonder if, since your Wilsons seem to have had a somewhat > parallel history to my Smiths in many ways, perhaps there was a > significant pocket of I1s who came to Ulster in Plantation times. > > I did, however, get an immediate R1b1b2 for my presumed > reiver-descended Crozier. His antecedents weren't Planter but probably > came to Fermanagh not long after. So both from Scotland but... > > Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be > hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that > those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? could in > fact be left over Danes maybe? > > Wouldn't it be interesting to get all the 1718 and post Ulster > families to DNA test and compare haplogroups, to see if it's possible > to separate out Planters from indigenous Irish? > > But then sorting out the whys of I1 Argyllshire men from the R1b1b2 > lowland reivers is another question. Too many intriguing questions!! > > BTW LInda, you said my Johnston might turn out to be a Celtic McShane. > No chance, it seems, since my testor (a late 80s-something cousin) is > I1 whose sub-haplogroup seems, if I am to believe the current talk, to > be one of the so-called Poldean Johnstons of Scotland "whose Y-DNA > signature" says Cliff Johnston, "is [so] distinctive...there is no > mistaking it for any other surname's Y-DNA. Indeed, if one has only > the shortest test available, the 12-markers test, one can tell if he > is a Poldean Johnston immediately." > > The amazing part of this Johnston DNA test is that it might never have > 'been,' had not been for a persistent Wilcox-cousin in Australia who > developed the super 'super-search' Fermanagh website > <http://www.fermanagh-gold.com/> for his fellow-subscribers to the > Fermanagh-GOLD mailing list (and anyone else who needs Fermanagh data) > — BTW, another Mailing list in the category of Linda Merle's!! > > David noticed I had "a Johnston" in MY family tree (big deal!–half the > world has Johnstons in their trees!!); he'd DNA tested and he thought > one of mine ought to, too. I begged off, already being swamped with > DNA, with the comment that Johnstons are a dime a dozen and a chance > of a match was wildly unlikely. Dave persisted, despite my brush off, > saying things like... you had a Crozier who married a Johnston in > Canada... I had a Wilcox from the same area of Ireland who married a > Johnston there & emigrated to Australia... The mother of your Crozier > who married the Johnston was a Wilcox... > > So seeing his greater wisdom, I gave in and the test of my Johnston > cousin got done. Voilà a match! — both David and I from Poldean stock, > if Cliff be right (and BTW, I have no reason to question him!). A > 35/37 match with David and a 36/37 match with Cliff! > > I guess the message is — if you've got a decent paper trail and a few > dollars to spend, despite all the unanswered questions we all have by > times, it's wildly 'worth it' to test! > > Ruth > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5014 (20100409) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ruth, There's some information here about I1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29 Most importantly it says: "When SNPs are unknown or untested and when short tandem repeat (STR) results show eight allele repeats at DNA Y chromosome Segment (DYS) 455, haplogroup I1 can be predicted correctly with a very high rate of accuracy, 99.3 to 99.8 percent, according to Whit Athey and Vince Vizachero. [ 11 ] [ 12 ] This is almost exclusive to and ubiquitous in the I1 haplogroup, with very few having seven, nine, or another number. Furthermore, DYS 462 divides I1 geographically. Nordtvedt considers 12 allele repeats to be more likely Anglo-Saxon and on the southern fringes of the I1 map, while 13 signifies more northerly, Nordic origins. Nordtvedt has repeatedly argued that, at least for I1, [ 13 ] SNP testing is generally not as beneficial as expanded STR results." Ken Nordtvedt is very active on the genealogy-DNA list and he is the specialist in this haplo group. As you can see above you should be able to distinguish between two types -- Anglo Saxon and Nordic. Probably there is more information in the archives of the genealogy DNA list including the logic of those who may dispute his analysis. >Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? What is "most Celtic Irish"??? WIthin Ireland there is, to a geneticist, a wide variation of percentages of different types of DNA regionally. So where are you talking about precisely? in the true north west most men are northwest Irish, a specific type of R1 but as you shift locations you get different percentages. And then of course what are the others? Various things including other types of R1. Second problem is 'what is Celtic'? Celtic is a CULTURE. It has nothing to do with DNA. The scientists still debate over whether it was brought to Ireland by actual migrations of people bearing it or taught. If you go now to almost anywhere on the planet you will find evidence of Euro-American culture (blue jeans, for example), but is that the result of a massive invasion of EuroAmericans or cultural transference. We know usually its cultural transference. But we don't know (or rather I don't know and my eyes glaze over listening to the arguments) how it came to Ireland. What seems true from what I have read, though perhaps I am out of date, is that most of the IRish population was in place a very long time ago, migrating up the coast of Europe over land bridges. At the Seine, which then emptied south into the Atlantic (flowing through what is now the English Channel), some went west to Scotland and some took the valley of the SEine and went up it and into what is now France. The interior of Wales was mountainous. These people eventually crossed over into Scotland, probably over a land bridge. However since God never towed either away from one another, they were always close, even after the ice age ended and the land bridges inundated, clever humans built boats and traveled freely among Ireland, Scotland, and the Nordic lands. The Nordic lands were settled in a different fashion. You can view these..... But some of these Nordic types of DNA were in Ireland for thousands of years. Does that mean they aren't "Celtic"? This is hogwash. Of course they were as Celtic as the next guy. We don't want to end up becoming some kind of 21st century 'bigot' who claims some poor smuck with an I1 chromo isn't really Irish when in fact he is. And for all we know, some came up from the Iberian area. They were not 'pure' haplotypes, even then. On the other hand too the eastern coast of England/Scotland was settled from the east, not the south, and it has seen waves of migrations, even in prehistoric times. There is much greater diversity there. People don't realize that our ancestors were very mobile. I was just reading about the world of Bede, an 8th century English historian who sheds much light on the Dark Ages at a time when the Anglo Saxons were still not very Christian and Christianity was still grappling with the neoclassic pagan heritage (ie re-writing Latin texbooks using Christian stories and not pagan). In the 700s people liked to go on pilgrimates to Rome. They'd cross to France and travel south, departing by boat from Marseilles. Took six months or more to get there. Many died on the way, but it was good to die on a pilgrimage. One person went on six such trips in his life. Later on, before the Vikings destroyed things, the Anglo Saxon/Irish Christians had great impact on Continental Europe -- many traveled there and even settled. We find many English manuscripts in Continental libraries from these dark age centuries. The DNA mixed a lot. The Irish came to England, the English to Ireland, etc, etc,e tc. The scientists always deal with statistics, so they can tell you 60 percent of your type of DNA is found here, etc...but you are not interested in the big picture. You want to know about one particular instance. Maybe you can never know when precisely your ancestor arrived in Ireland because his DNA will not tell you. Only that it was in Ireland because your ancestor was. You have to seek other information to even devise theories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29 - the migration of R1 is complicated and some do not believe in the Ibernian origin any more. How can you really separate planters from Irish? Scientists iare of the opinion that it is not possible. After all, God towed Ireland next to Scotland a very long time ago and since then people with legs and boats could travel back and forth. If you actually think the DNA is different in Scotland from the DNA in Ireland, see me about a bridge i'm selling. It is not. It dffers in percentages. Many Scots clans, we know, are founded by Irishmen. Their DNA doesn't 'change' just because they moved to Scotland. The scientists see different types of mutations coming from a common 'root', ie different branches, but also there is the constant patter of new people in both places. A person's chromosomes do not determine their ethnicity. An Irish ancestor living in Ireland could have strange DNA -- maybe he comes from Wales, where there were Irish colonies and where the Irish raided and took slaves. THe Romans imported slaves to work in Welsh copper mines -- you find all kinds of eastern Mediteranian DNA there. These people are called "Welsh coalminers". Their Y chromo is irrelevant. When ancestors were captured and lugged to Ireland, their descendents were "Irishmen". So if you want to know about your ancestor, you should study the records to see where he lived, how he lived, and what his religion and social class was. That will tell you who he was -- not his Y chromosome. A Johnston with a I2 Y chromo could culturally have been "Celtic' (whatever that means). he isn't related to the McShane clan that gave Queen Lizzie and some other O'Neills heart burn in the 1500s. That's all it says. A more detailed inspection by Ken Nordtvedt (or yourself) might suggest something about where he was before if you have matches. Or you can understand the mutation rates so you can tell who matches when the FTDNA software doesn't indicate they are matches. Or you understand the genomap well enough to ID the significance of 'upstream' mutations. I can't do this and must rely on others. What we see in projects like the Cumberland Gap project (descendents of people, often 'scotch irish', migrating west through the Gap into Kentucky) is a lot of north west Irish. What it shows is a lot of indiginous Irish assimilating into .... what? "Planter"? Meaning they were Protestant in Ireland? "Scotch Irish" meaning they assimilated in America? I donno <grin>. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 2:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA It's interesting, Dan, that the 1718 Smith family I am tracing and which we've talked about specifically, is also I1. This family is a Plantation family, arriving in Ulster from Argyllshire in the first half of the 17th c — the earliest family member, known about in some detail, was on one of the "first 5 ships' of 1718, and is always said in oral tradition to have, in infancy, survived the Siege of Derry. So, in some sense, I didn't necessarily expect an R1b haplogroup placement. I wonder if, since your Wilsons seem to have had a somewhat parallel history to my Smiths in many ways, perhaps there was a significant pocket of I1s who came to Ulster in Plantation times. I did, however, get an immediate R1b1b2 for my presumed reiver-descended Crozier. His antecedents weren't Planter but probably came to Fermanagh not long after. So both from Scotland but... Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? could in fact be left over Danes maybe? Wouldn't it be interesting to get all the 1718 and post Ulster families to DNA test and compare haplogroups, to see if it's possible to separate out Planters from indigenous Irish? But then sorting out the whys of I1 Argyllshire men from the R1b1b2 lowland reivers is another question. Too many intriguing questions!! BTW LInda, you said my Johnston might turn out to be a Celtic McShane. No chance, it seems, since my testor (a late 80s-something cousin) is I1 whose sub-haplogroup seems, if I am to believe the current talk, to be one of the so-called Poldean Johnstons of Scotland "whose Y-DNA signature" says Cliff Johnston, "is [so] distinctive...there is no mistaking it for any other surname's Y-DNA. Indeed, if one has only the shortest test available, the 12-markers test, one can tell if he is a Poldean Johnston immediately." The amazing part of this Johnston DNA test is that it might never have 'been,' had not been for a persistent Wilcox-cousin in Australia who developed the super 'super-search' Fermanagh website <http://www.fermanagh-gold.com/> for his fellow-subscribers to the Fermanagh-GOLD mailing list (and anyone else who needs Fermanagh data) — BTW, another Mailing list in the category of Linda Merle's!! David noticed I had "a Johnston" in MY family tree (big deal!–half the world has Johnstons in their trees!!); he'd DNA tested and he thought one of mine ought to, too. I begged off, already being swamped with DNA, with the comment that Johnstons are a dime a dozen and a chance of a match was wildly unlikely. Dave persisted, despite my brush off, saying things like... you had a Crozier who married a Johnston in Canada... I had a Wilcox from the same area of Ireland who married a Johnston there & emigrated to Australia... The mother of your Crozier who married the Johnston was a Wilcox... So seeing his greater wisdom, I gave in and the test of my Johnston cousin got done. Voilà a match! — both David and I from Poldean stock, if Cliff be right (and BTW, I have no reason to question him!). A 35/37 match with David and a 36/37 match with Cliff! I guess the message is — if you've got a decent paper trail and a few dollars to spend, despite all the unanswered questions we all have by times, it's wildly 'worth it' to test! Ruth

Hi Shirley, I don't know cause I didn't look <grin>. What first names do they use? That might suggest a connection...... Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Newbold" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 1:41:26 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [S-I] Norris in PA Linda,Did any of your Norris' wander over into Cadiz, Harrison County, OH? I have a small bunch there, can't find their forbears. Shirley Newbold [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, I see all of these posts about what a help that being tested for Y - DNA is. Yet, in my case,there is a lot of information but nothing conclusive. I have a couple of cousins with surname Peak who have had their YDNA tested. One of them has an oral history that our Peak ancestor was Scotch-Irish and came from Ulster to Charleston about 1730. We have 8 generations in America. My cousin is halotype R1b1b2a1a4 which is pretty definitive. Yet, the country of origin is not really defined. Am I missing something? Ed O'Brien

Hi Linda: I found your article fantastically interesting and informative. Can you advise further reading, to a DNA novice, for a person with NW Irish Heritage. My Haplogroup is "R1b12a1b". My earliest known ancestor was born in Sligo, Ireland, ca 1765. It is my speculation his g grandfather came from Devon, England, ca 1695-1725. Kindest Regards Jim White Naples, Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > Hi Ruth, > > There's some information here about I1: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29 > > Most importantly it says: > "When SNPs are unknown or untested and when short tandem repeat (STR) > results show eight allele repeats at DNA Y chromosome Segment (DYS) 455, > haplogroup I1 can be predicted correctly with a very high rate of > accuracy, 99.3 to 99.8 percent, according to Whit Athey and Vince > Vizachero. [ 11 ] [ 12 ] This is almost exclusive to and ubiquitous in the > I1 haplogroup, with very few having seven, nine, or another number. > Furthermore, DYS 462 divides I1 geographically. Nordtvedt considers 12 > allele repeats to be more likely Anglo-Saxon and on the southern fringes > of the I1 map, while 13 signifies more northerly, Nordic origins. > Nordtvedt has repeatedly argued that, at least for I1, [ 13 ] SNP testing > is generally not as beneficial as expanded STR results." > > Ken Nordtvedt is very active on the genealogy-DNA list and he is the > specialist in this haplo group. As you can see above you should be able to > distinguish between two types -- Anglo Saxon and Nordic. Probably there is > more information in the archives of the genealogy DNA list including the > logic of those who may dispute his analysis. >>Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be > hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that > those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? > > What is "most Celtic Irish"??? WIthin Ireland there is, to a geneticist, a > wide variation of percentages of different types of DNA regionally. So > where are you talking about precisely? in the true north west most men are > northwest Irish, a specific type of R1 but as you shift locations you get > different percentages. And then of course what are the others? Various > things including other types of R1. > > Second problem is 'what is Celtic'? Celtic is a CULTURE. It has nothing to > do with DNA. The scientists still debate over whether it was brought to > Ireland by actual migrations of people bearing it or taught. If you go now > to almost anywhere on the planet you will find evidence of Euro-American > culture (blue jeans, for example), > but is that the result of a massive invasion of EuroAmericans or cultural > transference. We know usually its > cultural transference. But we don't know (or rather I don't know and my > eyes glaze over listening to the > arguments) how it came to Ireland. > > What seems true from what I have read, though perhaps I am out of date, is > that most of the IRish population > was in place a very long time ago, migrating up the coast of Europe over > land bridges. At the Seine, which > then emptied south into the Atlantic (flowing through what is now the > English Channel), some went west > to Scotland and some took the valley of the SEine and went up it and into > what is now France. The interior > of Wales was mountainous. These people eventually crossed over into > Scotland, probably over a land > bridge. > > However since God never towed either away from one another, they were > always close, even after the > ice age ended and the land bridges inundated, clever humans built boats > and traveled freely among > Ireland, Scotland, and the Nordic lands. > > The Nordic lands were settled in a different fashion. You can view > these..... But some of these Nordic > types of DNA were in Ireland for thousands of years. Does that mean they > aren't "Celtic"? This is hogwash. > Of course they were as Celtic as the next guy. We don't want to end up > becoming some > kind of 21st century 'bigot' who claims some poor smuck with an I1 chromo > isn't really Irish when in fact he is. And for all we know, some came up > from the Iberian area. They were > not 'pure' haplotypes, even then. > > On the other hand too the eastern coast of England/Scotland was settled > from the east, not the south, > and it has seen waves of migrations, even in prehistoric times. There is > much greater diversity there. > > People don't realize that our ancestors were very mobile. I was just > reading about the world of Bede, > an 8th century English historian who sheds much light on the Dark Ages at > a time when the Anglo > Saxons were still not very Christian and Christianity was still grappling > with the neoclassic pagan > heritage (ie re-writing Latin texbooks using Christian stories and not > pagan). In the 700s people liked > to go on pilgrimates to Rome. They'd cross to France and travel south, > departing by boat from Marseilles. > Took six months or more to get there. Many died on the way, but it was > good to die on a pilgrimage. > One person went on six such trips in his life. Later on, before the > Vikings destroyed things, the > Anglo Saxon/Irish Christians had great impact on Continental Europe -- > many traveled there and > even settled. We find many English manuscripts in Continental libraries > from these dark age > centuries. The DNA mixed a lot. The Irish came to England, the English to > Ireland, etc, etc,e tc. > > The scientists always deal with statistics, so they can tell you 60 > percent of your type of DNA is > found here, etc...but you are not interested in the big picture. You want > to know about one particular > instance. Maybe you can never know when precisely your ancestor arrived in > Ireland because his > DNA will not tell you. Only that it was in Ireland because your ancestor > was. You have to seek other > information to even devise theories. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29 - the migration of > R1 is complicated > and some do not believe in the Ibernian origin any more. > > How can you really separate planters from Irish? Scientists iare of the > opinion that it is not > possible. After all, God towed Ireland next to Scotland a very long time > ago and since then people with > legs and boats could travel back and forth. If you actually think the DNA > is different in Scotland from the > DNA in Ireland, see me about a bridge i'm selling. It is not. It dffers in > percentages. Many Scots clans, > we know, are founded by Irishmen. Their DNA doesn't 'change' just because > they moved to Scotland. > The scientists see different types of mutations coming from a common > 'root', ie different branches, > but also there is the constant patter of new people in both places. > > A person's chromosomes do not determine their ethnicity. An Irish ancestor > living in Ireland could have > strange DNA -- maybe he comes from Wales, where there were Irish colonies > and where the Irish raided > and took slaves. THe Romans imported slaves to work in Welsh copper > mines -- you find all kinds of > eastern Mediteranian DNA there. These people are called "Welsh > coalminers". Their Y chromo is > irrelevant. When ancestors were captured and lugged to Ireland, their > descendents were "Irishmen". > > So if you want to know about your ancestor, you should study the records > to see where he lived, > how he lived, and what his religion and social class was. That will tell > you who he was -- not his > Y chromosome. > > A Johnston with a I2 Y chromo could culturally have been "Celtic' > (whatever that means). he isn't > related to the McShane clan that gave Queen Lizzie and some other O'Neills > heart burn in the > 1500s. That's all it says. A more detailed inspection by Ken Nordtvedt (or > yourself) might suggest > something about where he was before if you have matches. Or you can > understand the mutation rates > so you can tell who matches when the FTDNA software doesn't indicate they > are matches. Or you > understand the genomap well enough to ID the significance of 'upstream' > mutations. I can't do this > and must rely on others. > > What we see in projects like the Cumberland Gap project (descendents of > people, often 'scotch irish', > migrating west through the Gap into Kentucky) is a lot of north west > Irish. What it shows is a lot of > indiginous Irish assimilating into .... what? "Planter"? Meaning they were > Protestant in Ireland? "Scotch Irish" > meaning they assimilated in America? I donno <grin>. > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 2:12:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [S-I] More on DNA > > It's interesting, Dan, that the 1718 Smith family I am tracing and > which we've talked about specifically, is also I1. This family is a > Plantation family, arriving in Ulster from Argyllshire in the first > half of the 17th c — the earliest family member, known about in some > detail, was on one of the "first 5 ships' of 1718, and is always said > in oral tradition to have, in infancy, survived the Siege of Derry. > > So, in some sense, I didn't necessarily expect an R1b haplogroup > placement. I wonder if, since your Wilsons seem to have had a somewhat > parallel history to my Smiths in many ways, perhaps there was a > significant pocket of I1s who came to Ulster in Plantation times. > > I did, however, get an immediate R1b1b2 for my presumed > reiver-descended Crozier. His antecedents weren't Planter but probably > came to Fermanagh not long after. So both from Scotland but... > > Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be > hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that > those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? could in > fact be left over Danes maybe? > > Wouldn't it be interesting to get all the 1718 and post Ulster > families to DNA test and compare haplogroups, to see if it's possible > to separate out Planters from indigenous Irish? > > But then sorting out the whys of I1 Argyllshire men from the R1b1b2 > lowland reivers is another question. Too many intriguing questions!! > > BTW LInda, you said my Johnston might turn out to be a Celtic McShane. > No chance, it seems, since my testor (a late 80s-something cousin) is > I1 whose sub-haplogroup seems, if I am to believe the current talk, to > be one of the so-called Poldean Johnstons of Scotland "whose Y-DNA > signature" says Cliff Johnston, "is [so] distinctive...there is no > mistaking it for any other surname's Y-DNA. Indeed, if one has only > the shortest test available, the 12-markers test, one can tell if he > is a Poldean Johnston immediately." > > The amazing part of this Johnston DNA test is that it might never have > 'been,' had not been for a persistent Wilcox-cousin in Australia who > developed the super 'super-search' Fermanagh website > <http://www.fermanagh-gold.com/> for his fellow-subscribers to the > Fermanagh-GOLD mailing list (and anyone else who needs Fermanagh data) > — BTW, another Mailing list in the category of Linda Merle's!! > > David noticed I had "a Johnston" in MY family tree (big deal!–half the > world has Johnstons in their trees!!); he'd DNA tested and he thought > one of mine ought to, too. I begged off, already being swamped with > DNA, with the comment that Johnstons are a dime a dozen and a chance > of a match was wildly unlikely. Dave persisted, despite my brush off, > saying things like... you had a Crozier who married a Johnston in > Canada... I had a Wilcox from the same area of Ireland who married a > Johnston there & emigrated to Australia... The mother of your Crozier > who married the Johnston was a Wilcox... > > So seeing his greater wisdom, I gave in and the test of my Johnston > cousin got done. Voilà a match! — both David and I from Poldean stock, > if Cliff be right (and BTW, I have no reason to question him!). A > 35/37 match with David and a 36/37 match with Cliff! > > I guess the message is — if you've got a decent paper trail and a few > dollars to spend, despite all the unanswered questions we all have by > times, it's wildly 'worth it' to test! > > Ruth > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5014 (20100409) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com

I have tried by the rules, many times. I thought that using the F word as you put it often enough I would be kicked off, that not working either. ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, 10 April, 2010 1:15:47 AM Subject: Re: [S-I] The F-word user In a message dated 4/9/2010 8:11:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: >  I told > her she wasn't on the membership list anymore (I checked) and I didn't > know why she was still getting messages Unless you are the list administrator not sure how you checked but...unless she unsubs using the rules of the list then the only way off is for the list administrator to remove her. Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Probably the best thing to do is search for some simple information explaining why Y DNA testing doesn't expose the family jewells (sorry....couldn't resist!). I was searching for some yesterday at ftdna and didn't find any. It's programmers must all have phds....it's one of the problems with DNA testing firms -- too esoteric. You can search the archives of the newbie list, for example, and find articles at ancestry.com, etc. What I did was forwarded the fearful one the public page of the project which had some kit numbers, names of the oldest known ancestor (not the testee's) and a string of weird numbers. .The only thing you can get from that is suggestions for the lottery. You can't connect these to any living human. Sometimes people give out their logons and passwords. Now this is not smart because that lets them access your name, address, etc. Instead try to figure out how to upload the data to ysearch (This can be difficult due to programmers with Phds but if you email familytreeDNA, my experience is they are always helpful -- and they need to know their design is hard to navigate). Then send the person the Ysearch ID. Or point them to a project (I am Kit 34343 in the FISH project at <URL>). Where people do expose their testing themselves to their doctors (and thus insurance firms) is with the autosomal testing). This tests ALL your chromosomes. It could find genes associated with known diseases and if these show up on y our report of course you would want to alert your doctor so he/she could watch out for these situations. If you don't tell the doctor, no one would know you had any DNA tested. I suppose the police could find a DNA sample at a crime scene and have it tested and look for matches in Ysearch and find your DNA matches and force the firm via search warrant to identify the donor and show up at your house trying to figure out if it is you or your brother or your 37th cousin but I've not heard of this happening....could be a topic for the DNA lists -- could this happen? I donno enough to say yes or no. But don't bring it up to your brother. I'm no expert, so I don't know. Credit cards don't have anything to do with DNA -- y ou can also be invoiced for the kit. It is very common to have a third party pay for it and they don't tend to mess this up. I doubt his DNA matches his credit card number <grin>. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Newbold" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 10:37:28 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [S-I] Y-DNA Dan, that was great information to have. Now, can you tell me how to convince my brother, the only living male relative in my family, to do the testing? He's paranoid about something, don't know if it is credit card theft, identity theft or what ;-) . "Aging is mind over matter . If you don't mind, it does not matter." Shirley Newbold [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Subject: SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 113 > To: [email protected] > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:01:45 -0600 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. More on DNA (Daniel Wilson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 20:10:34 -0700 > From: Daniel Wilson <[email protected]> > Subject: [S-I] More on DNA > To: Scotch-Irish Discussion List <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I had to chuckle at the people and all the questions about Y-DNA, > because I had (have) the same questions. In general, the more markers > you have tested, the more confidence you can have in the results. The 25 > marker comparisons are almost useless as they give too many matches to > be realistic. FTDNA diplays your matches for 12, 25, 37 and 67 markers, > and I see that a number of those who matched exactly with 12 markers, > fell of the list when we looked at 37 markers. Ditto for the 67 markers. > > I have a good paper trail of my Wilsons back to Coleraine, some from > Ballywillan parish and some from Dunboe. In fact I even found their > names in the records of the First Dunboe Presbyterian church and walked > the old streets of Articlave and Ballywildrick - a bit spooky I'll > admit, but fun in any case. So, when I had my Y-DNA analyzed by FTDNA, > thought for sure it would come back as R1b1b2 as most Cletic Irish do, > but I was surprised when my haplogroup turned out to be I1a - Nordic! > that means my ancient ancestor probably came from Norway or Denmark and > was among the Vikings that eventually stayed in Ireland (or possibly > Scotland or England - the Danelaw, etc.) Using Y-SEARCH, and the matches > by FTDNA, I was able to find 4 perfect matches at 37 markers and one at > 67 markers with a genetic distance of 1 (we matched on 66 of 67 markers). > > FTDNA has some faculty at the University of Arizona who compute the > probabilities of matches, and they claim that the guy I matched on the > 67 markers had a common ancestor with me about 300 years ago, with a > probability of about .96. That's pretty high if you're not up on > probability theory. One of these days I'm going to sit down and figure > out how they came up with .96! > > Dan > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SCOTCH-IRISH list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the SCOTCH-IRISH mailing list, send an email to [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 113 > ******************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Daniel, Fascinating story, and yes we all got the same questions on DNA <grin>. I do know some kinds of I are considered 'indiginous' to Ireland because they've been there for so very very long -- thousands of years. So if you seek out a guru of your kind of DNA, maybe they can tell you what type this is. There may be a list specific to it. Or ask on the genealogy DNA list. There are a couple major players in the I-world there. Did you email the guy who matched you??? I am amazed at how many do not respond! Like, this is the WHOLE POINT -- find matches. Oh well...... Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Wilson" <[email protected]> To: "Scotch-Irish Discussion List" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 11:10:34 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [S-I] More on DNA I had to chuckle at the people and all the questions about Y-DNA, because I had (have) the same questions. In general, the more markers you have tested, the more confidence you can have in the results. The 25 marker comparisons are almost useless as they give too many matches to be realistic. FTDNA diplays your matches for 12, 25, 37 and 67 markers, and I see that a number of those who matched exactly with 12 markers, fell of the list when we looked at 37 markers. Ditto for the 67 markers. I have a good paper trail of my Wilsons back to Coleraine, some from Ballywillan parish and some from Dunboe. In fact I even found their names in the records of the First Dunboe Presbyterian church and walked the old streets of Articlave and Ballywildrick - a bit spooky I'll admit, but fun in any case. So, when I had my Y-DNA analyzed by FTDNA, thought for sure it would come back as R1b1b2 as most Cletic Irish do, but I was surprised when my haplogroup turned out to be I1a - Nordic! that means my ancient ancestor probably came from Norway or Denmark and was among the Vikings that eventually stayed in Ireland (or possibly Scotland or England - the Danelaw, etc.) Using Y-SEARCH, and the matches by FTDNA, I was able to find 4 perfect matches at 37 markers and one at 67 markers with a genetic distance of 1 (we matched on 66 of 67 markers). FTDNA has some faculty at the University of Arizona who compute the probabilities of matches, and they claim that the guy I matched on the 67 markers had a common ancestor with me about 300 years ago, with a probability of about .96. That's pretty high if you're not up on probability theory. One of these days I'm going to sit down and figure out how they came up with .96! Dan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It's interesting, Dan, that the 1718 Smith family I am tracing and which we've talked about specifically, is also I1. This family is a Plantation family, arriving in Ulster from Argyllshire in the first half of the 17th c — the earliest family member, known about in some detail, was on one of the "first 5 ships' of 1718, and is always said in oral tradition to have, in infancy, survived the Siege of Derry. So, in some sense, I didn't necessarily expect an R1b haplogroup placement. I wonder if, since your Wilsons seem to have had a somewhat parallel history to my Smiths in many ways, perhaps there was a significant pocket of I1s who came to Ulster in Plantation times. I did, however, get an immediate R1b1b2 for my presumed reiver-descended Crozier. His antecedents weren't Planter but probably came to Fermanagh not long after. So both from Scotland but... Linda, could we assume that the Irish of pre-Plantation times would be hugely R1b1b2 as Daniel points out "most Celtic Irish [are]" and that those brought over from Scotland would not necessarily be? could in fact be left over Danes maybe? Wouldn't it be interesting to get all the 1718 and post Ulster families to DNA test and compare haplogroups, to see if it's possible to separate out Planters from indigenous Irish? But then sorting out the whys of I1 Argyllshire men from the R1b1b2 lowland reivers is another question. Too many intriguing questions!! BTW LInda, you said my Johnston might turn out to be a Celtic McShane. No chance, it seems, since my testor (a late 80s-something cousin) is I1 whose sub-haplogroup seems, if I am to believe the current talk, to be one of the so-called Poldean Johnstons of Scotland "whose Y-DNA signature" says Cliff Johnston, "is [so] distinctive...there is no mistaking it for any other surname's Y-DNA. Indeed, if one has only the shortest test available, the 12-markers test, one can tell if he is a Poldean Johnston immediately." The amazing part of this Johnston DNA test is that it might never have 'been,' had not been for a persistent Wilcox-cousin in Australia who developed the super 'super-search' Fermanagh website <http://www.fermanagh-gold.com/> for his fellow-subscribers to the Fermanagh-GOLD mailing list (and anyone else who needs Fermanagh data) — BTW, another Mailing list in the category of Linda Merle's!! David noticed I had "a Johnston" in MY family tree (big deal!–half the world has Johnstons in their trees!!); he'd DNA tested and he thought one of mine ought to, too. I begged off, already being swamped with DNA, with the comment that Johnstons are a dime a dozen and a chance of a match was wildly unlikely. Dave persisted, despite my brush off, saying things like... you had a Crozier who married a Johnston in Canada... I had a Wilcox from the same area of Ireland who married a Johnston there & emigrated to Australia... The mother of your Crozier who married the Johnston was a Wilcox... So seeing his greater wisdom, I gave in and the test of my Johnston cousin got done. Voilà a match! — both David and I from Poldean stock, if Cliff be right (and BTW, I have no reason to question him!). A 35/37 match with David and a 36/37 match with Cliff! I guess the message is — if you've got a decent paper trail and a few dollars to spend, despite all the unanswered questions we all have by times, it's wildly 'worth it' to test! Ruth On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:19 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > Fascinating story, and yes we all got the same questions on DNA <grin>. I do know some kinds of I are considered 'indiginous' to Ireland because they've been there for so very very long -- thousands of years. So if you seek out a guru of your kind of DNA, maybe they can tell you what type this is. There may be a list specific to it. Or ask on the genealogy DNA list. There are a couple major players in the I-world there. > > Did you email the guy who matched you??? I am amazed at how many do not respond! Like, this is the WHOLE POINT -- find matches. Oh well...... > > Linda Merle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Wilson" <[email protected]> > To: "Scotch-Irish Discussion List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 11:10:34 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: [S-I] More on DNA > > I had to chuckle at the people and all the questions about Y-DNA, > because I had (have) the same questions. In general, the more markers > you have tested, the more confidence you can have in the results. The 25 > marker comparisons are almost useless as they give too many matches to > be realistic. FTDNA diplays your matches for 12, 25, 37 and 67 markers, > and I see that a number of those who matched exactly with 12 markers, > fell of the list when we looked at 37 markers. Ditto for the 67 markers. > > I have a good paper trail of my Wilsons back to Coleraine, some from > Ballywillan parish and some from Dunboe. In fact I even found their > names in the records of the First Dunboe Presbyterian church and walked > the old streets of Articlave and Ballywildrick - a bit spooky I'll > admit, but fun in any case. So, when I had my Y-DNA analyzed by FTDNA, > thought for sure it would come back as R1b1b2 as most Celtic Irish do, > but I was surprised when my haplogroup turned out to be I1a - Nordic! > that means my ancient ancestor probably came from Norway or Denmark and > was among the Vikings that eventually stayed in Ireland (or possibly > Scotland or England - the Danelaw, etc.) Using Y-SEARCH, and the matches > by FTDNA, I was able to find 4 perfect matches at 37 markers and one at > 67 markers with a genetic distance of 1 (we matched on 66 of 67 markers). > > FTDNA has some faculty at the University of Arizona who compute the > probabilities of matches, and they claim that the guy I matched on the > 67 markers had a common ancestor with me about 300 years ago, with a > probability of about .96. That's pretty high if you're not up on > probability theory. One of these days I'm going to sit down and figure > out how they came up with .96! > > Dan

Hi Bonnie, sorry but I'm not able to analyze the meager results. No one can. 12 markers is not enough in your case to identify the haplo group. I know that because .I look at what the software says at Ysearch and it indicates that your Haplogroup is unknown. Now this stuff is so sophisticated that if it errs in predicting your haplogroup FTDNA will do additional testing free. That's what it says in my account at Familytreemaker -- where my dad is eligible for a SNP test that will positively identify his predicted haplogroup. However in y our case the software doesn't have enough data to make any prediction at all. Yet you think ****I***** can? My dear, I cannot..... Not a clue. You say you've been working on this for years? I am sure you've been told to test more markers before. I only see 12 in Ysearch. That's why you can't get even a guess from the software on your haplogroup. Upgrade and get more markers tested. The matches you get at 12 can be all kinds of things. You cannot deduce from the matches what you are. You must upgrade if you really want to know. Or you will never know. I already said this in a couple emails, but once again: In Ireland you really need 67 markers (though you can no doubt get a prediction by upgrading to 37) if you expect to find significant matches that will tell you where your ancestors came from and who they might be related to. It's a case of 'we have seen the enemy and he is us' -- you are blockading success by refusing to upgrade, advice I am sure you have been given before. Do some constructive work and upgrade. Then you won't need to try to get someone to tell you what the haplogroup is: you'll have enough data that the software can tell. Best of luck, Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 10:46:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, The Y6VDW is on ysearch. It is right next to the 1st one I sent you. I was stupid and didn't look that the 1st one was only 12 markers. The other one is more, but I'm not sure if it is 67 or not. Please take a look. I have been trying for years to figure this one out! Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 7:13:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, no I didn't check a kit. One can't check a kit at Family Tree DNA unless it is your own or it is a match of yours or it is in the same project as you are. Privacy and all that. 12 markers is like 'Crackers". They come in lots of different types. You are saying that some kits that appear (somewhere) to have more than 12 markers tested are whole wheat, and based on that you seem to be asking if that means yours are whole wheat, even though the software at Family Tree DNA apparently won't predict if yours are whole wheat or seseme or lowfat tofu crackers. Ysearch says the haplogroup is unknown. That means it's unknown <grin>!! Seriously, the software is much more sophisticated than we are at this and 12 provides so few data points that in y our case it can't even make a guess. Just because some crackers are whole wheat doesn't mean yours is -- the only way to know is to gather more data. Like I said before, if you asked about this on the genealogy dna list, most people wouldn't pay you the time of day because you have only 12 markers tested. If you are sensing a great silence it's because you don't have enough data to bother with. Seriously. I would expect Coil to turn up north west Irish because it's a north west Irish surname but I wouldn't bet 2 cents on it <grin>! 12 markers probably shouldn't be sold. It's not enough, generally, to tell much. Rather than trying to guess what it is, use the time to find a job, earn money, and upgrade to 67. Seriously, if the DNA is north west Irish you need 67 markers because, like I said, the DNA is very alike. With 37 you can't tell if someone is or is not related. With 67 it's fairly clear. This is what the geneticists told us and they were right. It's less than $300. For $300 you cannot do a lot of genealogy. It's cheap. Best of luck with the upgrading..... and nighty night! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:44:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Did you check kit number 10864? It and several other kits appear to be more than 12 markers. One says R1B1B2. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:38:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, Well you only tested 12 markers which doesn't appear to be enough to even predict the haplogroup. To find out more you have to upgrade and get more testing done. These 12 marker tests -- the 'experts' wonder why the companies even offer them. They're not too useful. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:09:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Doug and others -- We got a new admin person and she's learning the ropes. Person is probably subbed under a different email account..... Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, April 9, 2010 9:15:47 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] The F-word user In a message dated 4/9/2010 8:11:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > I told > her she wasn't on the membership list anymore (I checked) and I didn't > know why she was still getting messages Unless you are the list administrator not sure how you checked but...unless she unsubs using the rules of the list then the only way off is for the list administrator to remove her. Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Linda, I have been trying to get a male from my family group to test, but so far no luck. Unfortunately I'm a female, so I won't work for the Ysearch. The last of my males are deceased, namely my father and my only brother, so I have to depend on the others in the group. I guess no one wants to spend the money. I know times are tough right now for most folks. I sure hope it gets better soon, but I somehow doubt it... Bonnie O'Neil In a message dated 4/9/2010 7:16:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, sorry but I'm not able to analyze the meager results. No one can. 12 markers is not enough in your case to identify the haplo group. I know that because .I look at what the software says at Ysearch and it indicates that your Haplogroup is unknown. Now this stuff is so sophisticated that if it errs in predicting your haplogroup FTDNA will do additional testing free. That's what it says in my account at Familytreemaker -- where my dad is eligible for a SNP test that will positively identify his predicted haplogroup. However in y our case the software doesn't have enough data to make any prediction at all. Yet you think ****I***** can? My dear, I cannot..... Not a clue. You say you've been working on this for years? I am sure you've been told to test more markers before. I only see 12 in Ysearch. That's why you can't get even a guess from the software on your haplogroup. Upgrade and get more markers tested. The matches you get at 12 can be all kinds of things. You cannot deduce from the matches what you are. You must upgrade if you really want to know. Or you will never know. I already said this in a couple emails, but once again: In Ireland you really need 67 markers (though you can no doubt get a prediction by upgrading to 37) if you expect to find significant matches that will tell you where your ancestors came from and who they might be related to. It's a case of 'we have seen the enemy and he is us' -- you are blockading success by refusing to upgrade, advice I am sure you have been given before. Do some constructive work and upgrade. Then you won't need to try to get someone to tell you what the haplogroup is: you'll have enough data that the software can tell. Best of luck, Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 10:46:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, The Y6VDW is on ysearch. It is right next to the 1st one I sent you. I was stupid and didn't look that the 1st one was only 12 markers. The other one is more, but I'm not sure if it is 67 or not. Please take a look. I have been trying for years to figure this one out! Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 7:13:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, no I didn't check a kit. One can't check a kit at Family Tree DNA unless it is your own or it is a match of yours or it is in the same project as you are. Privacy and all that. 12 markers is like 'Crackers". They come in lots of different types. You are saying that some kits that appear (somewhere) to have more than 12 markers tested are whole wheat, and based on that you seem to be asking if that means yours are whole wheat, even though the software at Family Tree DNA apparently won't predict if yours are whole wheat or seseme or lowfat tofu crackers. Ysearch says the haplogroup is unknown. That means it's unknown <grin>!! Seriously, the software is much more sophisticated than we are at this and 12 provides so few data points that in y our case it can't even make a guess. Just because some crackers are whole wheat doesn't mean yours is -- the only way to know is to gather more data. Like I said before, if you asked about this on the genealogy dna list, most people wouldn't pay you the time of day because you have only 12 markers tested. If you are sensing a great silence it's because you don't have enough data to bother with. Seriously. I would expect Coil to turn up north west Irish because it's a north west Irish surname but I wouldn't bet 2 cents on it <grin>! 12 markers probably shouldn't be sold. It's not enough, generally, to tell much. Rather than trying to guess what it is, use the time to find a job, earn money, and upgrade to 67. Seriously, if the DNA is north west Irish you need 67 markers because, like I said, the DNA is very alike. With 37 you can't tell if someone is or is not related. With 67 it's fairly clear. This is what the geneticists told us and they were right. It's less than $300. For $300 you cannot do a lot of genealogy. It's cheap. Best of luck with the upgrading..... and nighty night! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:44:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Did you check kit number 10864? It and several other kits appear to be more than 12 markers. One says R1B1B2. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:38:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, Well you only tested 12 markers which doesn't appear to be enough to even predict the haplogroup. To find out more you have to upgrade and get more testing done. These 12 marker tests -- the 'experts' wonder why the companies even offer them. They're not too useful. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:09:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Linda,Did any of your Norris' wander over into Cadiz, Harrison County, OH? I have a small bunch there, can't find their forbears. Shirley Newbold [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4

Dan, that was great information to have. Now, can you tell me how to convince my brother, the only living male relative in my family, to do the testing? He's paranoid about something, don't know if it is credit card theft, identity theft or what ;-) . "Aging is mind over matter . If you don't mind, it does not matter." Shirley Newbold [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Subject: SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 113 > To: [email protected] > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 01:01:45 -0600 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. More on DNA (Daniel Wilson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 20:10:34 -0700 > From: Daniel Wilson <[email protected]> > Subject: [S-I] More on DNA > To: Scotch-Irish Discussion List <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I had to chuckle at the people and all the questions about Y-DNA, > because I had (have) the same questions. In general, the more markers > you have tested, the more confidence you can have in the results. The 25 > marker comparisons are almost useless as they give too many matches to > be realistic. FTDNA diplays your matches for 12, 25, 37 and 67 markers, > and I see that a number of those who matched exactly with 12 markers, > fell of the list when we looked at 37 markers. Ditto for the 67 markers. > > I have a good paper trail of my Wilsons back to Coleraine, some from > Ballywillan parish and some from Dunboe. In fact I even found their > names in the records of the First Dunboe Presbyterian church and walked > the old streets of Articlave and Ballywildrick - a bit spooky I'll > admit, but fun in any case. So, when I had my Y-DNA analyzed by FTDNA, > thought for sure it would come back as R1b1b2 as most Cletic Irish do, > but I was surprised when my haplogroup turned out to be I1a - Nordic! > that means my ancient ancestor probably came from Norway or Denmark and > was among the Vikings that eventually stayed in Ireland (or possibly > Scotland or England - the Danelaw, etc.) Using Y-SEARCH, and the matches > by FTDNA, I was able to find 4 perfect matches at 37 markers and one at > 67 markers with a genetic distance of 1 (we matched on 66 of 67 markers). > > FTDNA has some faculty at the University of Arizona who compute the > probabilities of matches, and they claim that the guy I matched on the > 67 markers had a common ancestor with me about 300 years ago, with a > probability of about .96. That's pretty high if you're not up on > probability theory. One of these days I'm going to sit down and figure > out how they came up with .96! > > Dan > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SCOTCH-IRISH list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the SCOTCH-IRISH mailing list, send an email to [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SCOTCH-IRISH Digest, Vol 5, Issue 113 > ******************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2

Hi Bonnie, no I didn't check a kit. One can't check a kit at Family Tree DNA unless it is your own or it is a match of yours or it is in the same project as you are. Privacy and all that. 12 markers is like 'Crackers". They come in lots of different types. You are saying that some kits that appear (somewhere) to have more than 12 markers tested are whole wheat, and based on that you seem to be asking if that means yours are whole wheat, even though the software at Family Tree DNA apparently won't predict if yours are whole wheat or seseme or lowfat tofu crackers. Ysearch says the haplogroup is unknown. That means it's unknown <grin>!! Seriously, the software is much more sophisticated than we are at this and 12 provides so few data points that in y our case it can't even make a guess. Just because some crackers are whole wheat doesn't mean yours is -- the only way to know is to gather more data. Like I said before, if you asked about this on the genealogy dna list, most people wouldn't pay you the time of day because you have only 12 markers tested. If you are sensing a great silence it's because you don't have enough data to bother with. Seriously. I would expect Coil to turn up north west Irish because it's a north west Irish surname but I wouldn't bet 2 cents on it <grin>! 12 markers probably shouldn't be sold. It's not enough, generally, to tell much. Rather than trying to guess what it is, use the time to find a job, earn money, and upgrade to 67. Seriously, if the DNA is north west Irish you need 67 markers because, like I said, the DNA is very alike. With 37 you can't tell if someone is or is not related. With 67 it's fairly clear. This is what the geneticists told us and they were right. It's less than $300. For $300 you cannot do a lot of genealogy. It's cheap. Best of luck with the upgrading..... and nighty night! Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:44:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Did you check kit number 10864? It and several other kits appear to be more than 12 markers. One says R1B1B2. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:38:05 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Bonnie, Well you only tested 12 markers which doesn't appear to be enough to even predict the haplogroup. To find out more you have to upgrade and get more testing done. These 12 marker tests -- the 'experts' wonder why the companies even offer them. They're not too useful. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:09:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bonnie, Well you only tested 12 markers which doesn't appear to be enough to even predict the haplogroup. To find out more you have to upgrade and get more testing done. These 12 marker tests -- the 'experts' wonder why the companies even offer them. They're not too useful. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 9:09:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, It's under ysearch.org or familytreedna.com. Under ysearch you look for Coil then click on the WCCR3 kit number. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 6:04:57 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

No that's not all <grin>.What website do I go to view it? Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:58:00 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... It's under Coil the number is WCCR3.Is that all you need? It is an R1B1 group. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:24:23 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: www.ysearch.org ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bonnie, You log on to your FamilyTreeDNA account and it tells you. Click on Haplotree. Or you can tell us the ID at www.ysearch.org or the Kit number and the project -- Ulster Heritage, for example. If you tested at another company, you have to research it on their website. The info is there ... but I don't know where. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 8:17:45 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Linda, How can one tell if their DNA is Irish or something else? My father was from the R group too. Bonnie In a message dated 4/8/2010 5:00:10 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Marilyn, Hey, same type as my dad -- so how can I view the DNA sample? The central Ulster region there (Omagh) is rather mountainous. As such it didn't attract farmers. Many Irish, forced off of better farming land, moved to the mountainous areas of Tyrone. Some parishes still have the highest number of Irish living in them of any in Northern Ireland. Still, your DNA doesn't seem to be Irish. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2 As for how many markers you need tested to get good results, you'll have to find someone who studies this type of DNA. The Irish are very much alike so you need 67 to get any kinds of results. I don't know what you mean by 'unassigned'? Does that mean it is not assigned to a group in the Ulster Heritae project or what? I'm assuming you are a member there and the Armstrong and borders groups???? I know the Border folk are a very mixed bag, DNA wise. See the Border DNA project for information. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/ And here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/border_reiver_ deep_ancestry.htm Like I said, my father is in this area and he is predicted R1b1b2, same as YOU. So is it in Ysearch or where can I look at it to see if we match? He has an Armstrong in his family tree, but our surname is Mason. What I can tell you about the DNA is what I already said -- my father is Frisian, probably an ancient settlement. All the R's in the Border project are NOT Celtic, despite their webpages. I can also turn you onto the scientist. You may notice that England and Scotland are not very big and the Irish Sea is not very wide. They have been next to each other for a long time. So people move about. Most likely your Armstrong IS an Armstrong and he moved there after the Plantation. Many border people, esp. Armstrongs, fled since it seemed preferable to being hung from a tree. They tended to settle in Fermanagh where there were already border people, but your ancestors had legs so maybe they used them to move. There is a lot of migration in Ulster. People were rarely nailed into place. Serfdom has been gone for a very long time in the British Isles. I could speculate more if I knew more: ie what was their occupation? What townland did they live on? What estate was this townland part of? I am not so familar with Omagh, more south eastern Tyrone -- ie Dungannon. The Church had huge estates in this area (SE Tyrone). Some townlands it leased out for a hundred years or more, some it did not. In any case, the Irish cluster on these townlands because the Church wasn't forced to not rent to Irish. If your ancestor was poor with a short lease and Catholic, he probably thought he was Irish. He was certainly living the life of an Irishman. Being told his ancestors were border people would not have mattered. Actually many of them were Catholic. The Borders, English and Scots side, were full of recusants -- Catholics. The further you got from London the more 'diversity' people could have in spite of the law. Ditto for Scots in regards to Edinburgh, which 'ruled' the Borders in a very nominal sense only. My ancestors lived near a village called Ereshope way up in the Pennines. No church records. It had no Church of England church. Everyone was Presbyterian. Oh, you think, someone come from Scotland to preach? NO! Serviced out of Lancashire, other side of the mountain. Too high for the king's henchmen....no oxygen up there so people lived however they wanted, apparently. In Durham records you also find land inherited in the Scots fashion via sassines. Anyway that might explain how your ancestor got to Ireland. The DNA in the Borders was very very mixed because all kinds of people went there -- Romans, Angles, Vikings all invaded, remember? It is the origin of Jefferson, whose DNA is K2 or K -- both very old African types. Even before the sea flooded, people were crossing from Europe to this area. Maybe that's the J's. Donno (My mother is a J but her ancestress only made it to Germany). They are not sure about the early migrations -- like I said, appears to be more migrations early on, like Frisian. Pass on your kit number and where it is (or ysearch number) and I'll see if we match or not. Then we''ll only have to decide to go to your house first or mine!! It took me a couple years to just find anyone interested in my DNA. Still no matches....well, unless YOU match. Linda Merle ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marilyn Otterson" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 8, 2010 5:20:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... Ruth (and Linda), I can understand how you feel. My dad was always told that his Armstrongs were Scottish. I know the Armstrongs were a big Borders clan, many of them very pesty aggravators of the English crown, who raided on both sides of the Borders and in the late 1500s had many of the clan shipped up to Northern Ireland. Since doing my own research I have found that the family came from Termonmaguirk area in Omagh district in Co. Tyrone. Hoping perhaps to meet up with some "cousins" through Y-DNA testing, I got my male cousin on my paternal side, an Armstrong man, that is, to contribute a few cheek cells so I could find out my Armstrong Y-DNA of my particular family. I have my info on the Family Tree DNA on the Armstrong group and a couple of others and have had only a couple of 25-marker matches, both with different surnames, and neither or which wants to play genealogy with me. (I always said if I found a 25 marker match I'd go for a bigger number, but so far I don't have any) LINDA...my haplogroup was first said to be R1b1c but now it's classed as to be R1b1b2..so I am confused, and my ancestor is in the "unassigned" section of the Armstrong DNA group. The closest deep ancestry of mine, the most recent bunch, is said to be England, Germany, Holland,Ireland, New Zealand, Northern Ireland and Scotland. New Zealand???? How does that work in? Now...how do I try to interpret stuff like this and how come I never find a "cousin". Do I have a weird haplogroup, or what? I suppose, since my DNA is "unassigned" that must mean that it can't be put in any specific group of testees who mostly seem to have some group to which they at least somewhat closely match. Like Ruth, I can't see that I can get any real info from the DNA results I have. I've had my info on Family Tree DNA for over 3 years with nary a bite. Thanks for any insight! Marilyn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruth McLaughlin" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [S-I] Quiet List so..... > Very interesting post, Linda. > > When a family member tests and family turns out to be "Northwest > Irish," does that mean they have to be R1b of one kind of another? Or > are they are a particular R1b category? Or not necessarily either of > the above? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message